Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7872

1 Thursday, 5 October 2006

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Page 7897

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7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session, Your

9 Honours.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We can raise the blinds now.


12 Q. Witness BQ, now to your left and perhaps on the screen in front of

13 you, you can see the Bosnian language version of your statement. Is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And reflecting the question that was put to you by the Presiding

17 Judge a few moments ago, can you now see the actual date that you provided

18 this written statement?

19 A. I don't see the date.

20 Q. Perhaps, sir, if you could look on the hard copy that's to your

21 left, or if the ...

22 MR. KARNAVAS: We will not be contesting the date of when the

23 statement was given, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Move on.


Page 7898

1 Q. Now, Witness BQ, yesterday morning, when you arrived at the

2 Tribunal --

3 A. I see it now.

4 Q. When you arrived at the Tribunal yesterday morning, Witness, you

5 were given a copy of that statement. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, here it is.

7 Q. And did you have an opportunity to read that statement in the

8 Bosnian language?

9 A. Yes. I read it twice.

10 Q. And, Witness BQ, after reading that statement in the Bosnian

11 language, did you have any corrections that you would like to make to that

12 statement?

13 A. I didn't notice any errors that I would wish to correct.

14 Everything is all right.

15 Q. Well, Witness BQ, let me ask you this question: When we reviewed

16 your statement, when you and I reviewed your statement with a language

17 assistant, there was one issue concerning the number of gun-shots that

18 were fired on a particular day and you corrected part of your statement.

19 Do you remember that?

20 A. I remember that because it said "one or more shots," but I assert

21 it was one shot and that three people were killed.

22 MR. MUNDIS: And for the record, Your Honours, that is reflected

23 on the bottom of page 7 in the English statement in the next-to-the-last

24 paragraph. That's the point the witness is referring to.

25 Q. And Witness, correct me here, but it says in the statement: "I

Page 7899

1 don't know if it was one bullet that killed all three or maybe there was

2 more than one bullet." And you corrected that to say there's no doubt in

3 your mind that it's one bullet. Is that correct?

4 A. There was only one bullet and three people were hit. That's 100

5 per cent true and I guarantee it.

6 Q. Okay. Other than that change, Witness BQ, is there anything else

7 that needed to be changed or corrected with respect to your February 2002

8 written witness statement?

9 A. I didn't see any need to change anything or add anything, because

10 I stand by what is in this statement and I wish my statement to remain as

11 it is.

12 Q. I take it from that, sir, that there's nothing you want to add to

13 the statement?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Is there anything you want to remove from the statement?

16 A. I didn't see anything I would need to remove. It contains

17 everything I said. I see no need either to remove anything or add

18 anything.

19 Q. And I take it, Witness BQ, that if I were to ask you questions

20 about the subject matters that are reflected in this written witness

21 statement, your answers would reflect the information that's contained in

22 that written witness statement.

23 A. I think it would all be the same.

24 Q. Thank you, Witness BQ. I have a few questions with respect to

25 some of the locations that are mentioned in your written witness

Page 7900

1 statement.

2 Now, sir, in the English version of your statement, on page 5, you

3 describe being taken to the police station in Prozor. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness be shown P9686, which is

6 e-court and is also in the bundle of materials that is on the ELMO next to

7 the witness, whichever would be quicker.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are pictures from Prozor. I

9 can see the police station, one of the restaurants, and some of the

10 houses, and the police station is where the flag is. Here it is. Here it

11 is.


13 Q. Okay. Now, can you describe -- I know you've mentioned the flag.

14 Can you describe the police station building in Prozor as you see it in

15 this photograph?

16 A. Well, in the photograph you can see enough to recognise it, but --

17 well, it's quite easy to recognise.

18 Q. And how do you recognise it in this photograph, sir?

19 A. I recognise it by the windows. It's just the way it looks from

20 this angle. I can recognise the side and the front. I recognise it

21 well. I spent quite a long time there. I know every foot of the

22 territory and the buildings and everything.

23 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask now that the witness be shown P9685.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the secondary school in

25 Prozor where we were as prisoners. Yes, that's the school.

Page 7901


2 Q. And again, sir, that's described in your written witness statement

3 as being the location in Prozor where you were detained.

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask now that the witness be shown P 08994.

6 If that perhaps --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can see, this is a

8 drawing of the secondary school. This is the layout, the disposition of

9 the rooms. That's what it looks like.

10 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask perhaps if the e-court version can be

11 rotated clockwise, if that's possible, 90 degrees clockwise, that would

12 perhaps be helpful.

13 Q. Now, Witness BQ, just so we're absolutely clear, did you draw this

14 sketch?

15 A. No, no, it wasn't I who drew it.

16 Q. But you recognise what this sketch depicts.

17 A. Well, because of the corridors and the way the rooms are, how

18 they're located. If it's not identical, then at least it's very, very

19 similar.

20 Q. Now, Witness BQ, in this sketch that you see before, you'll notice

21 that the rooms are numbered. Do you know or can you recognise which room

22 you were detained in in the Prozor secondary school?

23 A. As far as I can tell, in room -- or rather, classroom number 9.

24 Yes, 9.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 7902

1 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask now that the witness be shown P 09718.

2 Q. And while that's coming up, sir, can you tell us, after you were

3 detained in the secondary school, where you were taken?

4 A. I spent a brief time in the secondary school. From there, they

5 put us in buses and took us to Dretelj.

6 MR. MUNDIS: And, again, if that photo now can be rotated

7 counter-clockwise 90 degrees.

8 Q. Witness BQ, do you recognise P 09718, the photograph that's before

9 you?

10 A. This is Dretelj, and the hangars where I and the other prisoners

11 were.

12 Q. Okay. Now, when you say, sir, "the hangars where I and the other

13 prisoners were," can you tell us from this photograph what you're

14 referring to as the hangars? Perhaps describe the hangars.

15 A. Well, I don't know what words to use to describe the hangars.

16 They look like some kind of military garage or military depot. It's not a

17 standard building and it's not a building people can live in. To the best

18 of my understanding, these were formerly depots or garages belonging to

19 the former JNA or probably a weapons depot. That's what it must have

20 been, because, as far as I was able to see, there were no conditions for

21 people to live there or spend any amount of time in, and yet people spent

22 several months there. The conditions were very, very bad.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Let's move now, please, to P 09720.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, this is

25 the hangar where I was put when I first arrived in Dretelj.

Page 7903


2 Q. And, sir, approximately how long were you in this hangar in

3 Dretelj that's depicted in P 09720?

4 A. I couldn't tell you the precise number of days, but it was

5 approximately a month or maybe a few days more.

6 Q. And, Witness BQ, after you were in this hangar for approximately a

7 month, where did you go or where were you taken?

8 A. From there I was taken through a large tunnel 200 or 300 metres

9 away from this hangar, a huge tunnel where we were shut up.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please now see P 09719.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember this. This is the

12 entrance to the tunnel. You can just see the gate.


14 Q. Now, sir, how many -- how many tunnels were there at Dretelj when

15 you were there?

16 A. As far as I was able to see, there were two. Whether there were

17 more than two, I wouldn't know, but I know about two tunnels.

18 Q. And, sir, the tunnel you were in, is it depicted in this photo,

19 P 09719?

20 A. Well, there should be a road here between those two hangars, and

21 there was one on the left and one on the right. You can see only one

22 tunnel here, and I don't see the road leading to the hangar. But still

23 I'm sure this is it.

24 Q. Okay. Sir, you told us a hangar on the left and a hangar on the

25 right. Which of those two hangars were you in?

Page 7904

1 A. The left one.

2 Q. Can we --

3 A. The one on the left, I think. Yes, the one on the left.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please now see P 09721?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think this is the same tunnel.


7 Q. Can you tell us what that photograph depicts, P 09721?

8 A. This is the tunnel where we spent a certain amount of time, I and

9 the other prisoners.

10 Q. Approximately how long were you in this tunnel, Witness BQ?

11 A. In the first hangar and in the second hangar, I spent 58 days

12 there. I was down there for a month or so, and then up there I was some

13 18 to 20 days.

14 Q. Witness BQ, approximately how many people were with you in this

15 tunnel on the left-hand side in Dretelj during the time-period you were

16 there?

17 A. Well, I couldn't count them, I didn't have an opportunity of

18 counting, but I think there were between 5 and 600 at least, and there may

19 have been more.

20 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the other people who were with

21 you in this tunnel?

22 A. I could remember a lot of names, although quite a lot of time has

23 elapsed. And my memory has been quite poor since I was in this camp.

24 I've had medical treatment. I might be able to remember a few names now,

25 but I couldn't remember very many. I don't know whether you need me to

Page 7905

1 mention names. I could mention a few, but not many, I'm afraid.

2 Q. Witness BQ, if you could mention the few names that you remember

3 who were with you in this tunnel on the left at Dretelj, that might be

4 helpful.

5 A. Well, I could remember many names. I would need time to think.

6 It was mostly us from Prozor. In the first hangar, for a long time, there

7 were just us from Prozor and then later on it became mixed up. There were

8 people there from Herzegovina and even from Central Bosnia in the other

9 place. I can only tell you the names of people from Prozor, not the

10 others.

11 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask the witness be shown P 03104 --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness move a

13 little closer to the microphones, please.


15 Q. Witness BQ, the interpreters are asking if you could move a little

16 bit closer to the microphone, so if you could perhaps.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Now I would ask if we could please go to the page

18 that says "page 4" at the bottom.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, on this document we

20 see the list. Could you tell us where this document comes from.

21 MR. MUNDIS: This document is missing apparently the first page

22 and/or any cover page that comes with it. This document has a stamp of

23 the Croatian state archives on the top. This is how we received the

24 document. We do not have the pages that precede this part of the list, as

25 we see here.

Page 7906

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: But, Mr. Mundis, what do you pretend that it is?

2 Because it has no title whatsoever. It's just a list of names.

3 MR. MUNDIS: It's a list of names, Your Honours. I was going to

4 ask the witness a question or two about the list, given that the name of

5 the witness appears on the list.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.


8 Q. Sir, if you could, please --

9 MR. MUNDIS: If we could look at the page, again on the bottom,

10 bearing "page 4".

11 Q. Sir, do you see between numbers 190 and 191 a heading on that

12 list?

13 A. On the left is the tunnel.

14 Q. What does that heading say?

15 A. As I understand it, this title and this list of people is when we

16 were released - what was the date? - when they selected a group of us for

17 release to our territory. And I think the names you have here, it's that

18 list of people who were released from Dretelj together with me. They

19 never made a list of our names except then.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you are going to ask him if

21 he recognises his name, you will have to move into closed session;

22 otherwise, one could identify his name.

23 Can we move into closed session, please.

24 [Closed session]

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Page 7907











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21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session, Your

23 Honour.

24 MR. MUNDIS: With the Trial Chamber's indulgence, I do have just a

25 couple more questions and about four very quick photos to show the

Page 7909

1 witness. I think we could probably finish before the break, but I am

2 cognizant of the time. I anticipate we need about four to five more

3 minutes.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. Finish with this and

5 let's move on.


7 Q. At the point I interrupted you, sir, you told us you went to Donja

8 Dreznica. Can you tell us a little bit about what happened when you were

9 at Donja Dreznica.

10 A. In Donja Dreznica we were met by an army. I didn't know who it

11 was at the time, but it was the SFOR. There was also the International

12 Red Cross and some Bosniak troops and people, civilians. We felt freer

13 there. We didn't feel completely free, but we felt better at least. Our

14 morale was higher than it had been before.

15 Q. Witness, do you know if there were any journalists present at the

16 time when you arrived in Donja Dreznica at the end of August 1993, with

17 the other people from Dretelj?

18 A. Believe me, I was so exhausted and so ill that I was unable to

19 notice that. I didn't know what was happening around me. I just lay down

20 on the grass waiting for someone to pick me up and take me to Jablanica

21 where my family was.

22 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask now that the witness be shown some

23 photographs that are part of P 04588. This exhibit consists of a large

24 number of photographs. It might very well be easier to do this on the

25 ELMO. So perhaps the photos that are in the bundle under that exhibit

Page 7910

1 number, if that could be placed on the ELMO.

2 Q. Witness, do you see a photograph in front of you on the screen?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. Can you tell us anything about that photograph?

5 A. I can only say that this was taken in Dreznica, I'm absolutely

6 sure, when we were resting and waiting to be transported to wherever we

7 were destined to go. These are people I know by sight, but I'm not sure I

8 could tell you their names correctly. However, I know most of these

9 people by sight. As quite a lot of time as elapsed, it would be hard for

10 me to remember their first and last names now.

11 MR. MUNDIS: If we could please go to the next paragraph.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

13 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it would assist us, in

14 order to identify the source, if the Prosecutor could explain the

15 provenance of these photographs, because they appear to be frames from a

16 video and we would, of course, be interested in knowing who made the

17 video.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, in light of that objection, I think we

19 better take the recess now. These photographs were taken by a

20 journalist. I can provide all that information after the break.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're right. On the cover

22 page, I can read "Associated Documents," so this is probably a press

23 agency.

24 We shall resume again at ten to 11.00 and have our break now.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

Page 7911

1 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Your Honours, I took

4 advantage of the break and pulled up some additional information

5 concerning these photographs. But before I indicate the source of these

6 documents, the Prosecution simply wants to put on the record that we don't

7 believe, in light of the fact that the witness has identified what's

8 contained in the photographs, that all of this is particularly necessary

9 at this point in time. But I will proffer, for the record, that these

10 photographs were taken by an individual named Nermin Malovic, whose name

11 appears on the witness list in this case. We may or may not call this

12 witness, but his name appears on the list. He was an ABiH press officer,

13 that is, he was a photographer assigned to a unit within the Army of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The statement of Mr. Malovic, which is dated 23 and

15 26 November 2004, has been disclosed. He is, of course, available to the

16 Trial Chamber as well, and that witness, in his statement, indicates and

17 describes the situation by which he came to be at this location and took

18 these photographs.

19 But, again, he is on the witness list, but we might not call this

20 person as a witness to testify. And our position clearly is that when

21 we've had a witness describe what is contained or shown in the

22 photographs, that that certainly is sufficient in terms of admissibility

23 of those photographs, notwithstanding any weight that the Trial Chamber

24 may subsequently assign to the photographs.

25 So I put that on the record to assist the Defence and the Trial

Page 7912

1 Chamber, but, again, our position at this point is that it might not

2 absolutely be necessary with respect to the photographs.

3 Now, again, with the assistance of the usher, if we could just

4 return to the photographs that have been -- or the four photographs that I

5 believe are contained in P 04588 --

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have not shown all the

7 photographs. We have four. We've seen the first one, but you haven't

8 shown all the photographs. Don't you wish to show them to the witness?

9 MR. MUNDIS: Yes. Perhaps there's a translation error. I'm

10 asking that that be done now. If we can return to the photographs P

11 04588.

12 Q. Sir, before the break, you commented on this photograph. Is there

13 anything else, Witness BQ, that you would like to say about this

14 particular photograph, the first photograph that you see before you?

15 A. Well, I don't know what I could add here. I can only see these

16 people. They are familiar. I know them, but I can't think of anything to

17 say at this moment.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Could we please go to the next photograph in that

19 bundle --


21 In the background of this photograph, behind the head of the

22 person crouching, there is a man who has a nose which is bandaged. Can

23 you see that?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see that.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Do you happen to know what was the story of this

Page 7913

1 man, why the nose was bandaged?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It could be several things, from the

3 beating on the hills or maybe falls when we were travelling to Dreznica.

4 I, myself, fell several times because it takes a long walk, several

5 kilometres, and I was so exhausted I barely made it to Dreznica. I had

6 fallen several times, so this man could have fallen, too. It could be

7 either from beating or from falling, but it's nothing good, in any case.

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm a bit confused now because I thought you had

9 told us that you were transported in trucks with a tarpaulin around it,

10 and now you are telling us that you had to walk.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We walked at Vrda, and then we

12 had to get off the buses and walk to Dreznica. But they drove us from

13 Capljina to Vrda, where the boundary was, the separation line.

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. Would persons who got wounded during

15 the beating be medically attended with bandages, like the one one sees on

16 this picture?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This man could have gotten this

18 bandage in Dreznica, not earlier, because we had nobody on the journey who

19 could attend to anybody or help anybody, at least not that I had seen. He

20 could have only gotten this bandage from the Red Cross in Dreznica. I

21 don't see where else he could have gotten it.

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one quick question from

24 me. On the same photo we see before the first gentleman somebody who is

25 on all fours, in white trousers on all fours. Is it because he's

Page 7914

1 exhausted or because he's handicapped? Do you remember anybody who was

2 with you there in that camp who was so exhausted that he had to walk on

3 all fours?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were some of us like

5 that. Not only this man but there were hundreds. I told you, I could

6 barely stand; I could barely get from Vrda to Dreznica. Some were in the

7 same state of exhaustion; some slightly better off. But it was not

8 infrequent that a person could not walk from exhaustion. I didn't see

9 anybody who was really disabled. This is probably from exhaustion. I

10 don't know what else to say on this photograph.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

12 Yes?

13 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 I'm sorry. I think the record does not reflect exactly what the witness

15 said. Lines 17 and 19 on the previous page, he said there was nobody on

16 the journey who could help them in terms of medical assistance. Not

17 there; he said on the journey.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same goes for the place where we

19 were in Dretelj. I had never an opportunity to see a doctor or anybody

20 who could help those people who were in Dretelj with me. I never saw a

21 single doctor in that compound. Whether there was anybody at all, I

22 really couldn't say either way. But I didn't see anyone.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.

24 Q. Witness BQ, perhaps if the usher could now turn to the following

25 page and rotate that photograph, please.

Page 7915

1 Sir, can you tell us anything about the photograph that you see

2 before you now? I think actually you're covering the mirror with the top

3 page.

4 Witness BQ, can you tell us anything about this photograph, what

5 it shows, who's depicted, where it's taken?

6 A. The photograph was taken in Dreznica. I recognise the terrain; I

7 recognise this location. And from what I see, these are IFOR vehicles,

8 and you can see one of the soldiers who were there. We got refreshments

9 there; we got water, drinks, some food. This was the first time we were

10 able to get some sustenance. You can see a person handing out food and

11 drinks to people who were around.

12 Q. Witness BQ, do you recognise any of the persons in this

13 photograph?

14 A. I know the one close up, I know him personally, by sight. But

15 it's such a long time that I don't want to make a mistake with a name.

16 That's why I'm going to avoid names. But I know the man from my

17 experience, and just by this picture, I could now go to his personal

18 address. But I wouldn't like to go into names.

19 Q. Witness BQ, I'd --

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On the same photo we see one

21 woman getting off the truck, and the soldier is helping her out. She is

22 in a white dress. Do you know if there were any women shipped by the same

23 trucks?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were women from

25 settlements in Herzegovina, in Capljina. She was not alone. There were

Page 7916

1 many women and children on this truck which transported us from Capljina

2 to Vrda, and then went on to Jablanica. There were lots of women and

3 children and elderly men.

4 MR. MUNDIS: With the assistance of the usher, if we could be

5 shown the next photograph.

6 Q. Witness BQ, I would ask you the same questions, if you can tell us

7 anything about this photograph, such as where it was taken, when it was

8 taken, whether you recognise anyone in the photograph.

9 A. I know the place, but on this particular picture, from what I can

10 see, they are mostly civilians. They're not inmates. I think those are

11 people who travelled from Capljina with us, so it could be them on the

12 photograph. Those are women from Capljina. I can see the old women who

13 carried things. You see this bag next to this women. Yes, these must be

14 the women who travelled with us.

15 Q. And, Witness BQ, you say, "I know the place." Can you tell us,

16 what is this place?

17 A. This is the plateau of the hydro-power station in Platovice. We

18 gathered there. We were transported by IFOR vehicles from Donja Dreznica

19 to this plateau, and there we got schedules who would be taken where.

20 Some were to Jablanica; some to Mostar; some to other places. But that's

21 where we got our schedules.

22 MR. MUNDIS: And, finally, if we could be shown the last photo in

23 this bundle.

24 Q. Witness BQ, I'd ask you if you recognise what's depicted in this

25 photograph.

Page 7917

1 A. Yes. It's a neighbour of mine from Varvara. You can see that he

2 had been in a camp just like me, since his ribs are protruding this way.

3 I can't recognise anybody else on this photograph. I know only him well.

4 Q. Witness BQ, do you recognise where this photograph was taken?

5 A. I couldn't say where it was taken because I can't see the location

6 very well. I can't see the background very well because I don't see

7 well. I just remember this man and I recognise him, nothing else.

8 Q. Witness BQ, you said on lines 17 and 18, "You can see that he'd

9 been in a camp just like me." Do you know what camp?

10 A. He was with me certainly in the first camp, in the first hangar.

11 I don't know where he went from there. All of us from Prozor who were

12 bussed to Dretelj were, at first, all together in that hangar for some 20

13 days, after which they started placing their people from Stolac, from

14 Mostar. But in the initial period, only we from Prozor were in this

15 hangar.

16 Q. Thank you, Witness BQ.

17 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions. We would

18 tender our documents at this point in time, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I just have one question for you

20 before I give the floor to the Defence counsel. In your written

21 statement, you say that when you arrived at Dretelj you had 94 kilos, and

22 later when you left in August you weighed only 32 kilos. I calculated you

23 lost 60 kilos in that time; is that correct? Which means one kilo a day.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as for this 32 kilos, I

25 actually weighed 37 kilos. I don't know where this figure of 32 comes

Page 7918

1 from. But it's true that I weighed 37 kilos. I weighed myself when I got

2 to this relative in Jablanica, and I weighed 37 kilos. And I assert -- I

3 assert with full responsibility that I weighed exactly 37 kilos when I was

4 released from Jablanica. I may have even put on some.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you eat at all during those

6 two months; if so, what kind of food did you get and how often?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we got any food, it was so

8 awful that maybe it better we had none. My teeth used to be so good that

9 I never had to see a dentist, and now you can see that, because of that

10 food, I lost all my teeth; they simply crumbled. The sort of food we got,

11 I would never have given to my dogs, my pigs, or my cattle. I would give

12 no one and nothing that food that we got in Dretelj.

13 And as for amounts, it was so small. One little loaf of 700 grams

14 was divided into pieces for 17 people. And this soup that we got was just

15 boiled over a fire and then they poured it into those dishes. I don't

16 know what to call those dishes. And it was so hot, you know what -- how

17 hot it can be when it's just off the fire. And we had 10, 20 seconds to

18 eat it. I don't think anybody could have held that dish with food for

19 more than 20 seconds. And, of course, I myself tried to eat as much of

20 that soup as I can. That's why I lost all my teeth; now I don't have a

21 single tooth. That's why I lost that weight. I lost my health, my

22 memory. I lost my entire life in Dretelj. It's just that my soul hasn't

23 yet been separated from my body. I've got nothing else left.

24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Witness, on the same subject, can you tell us on

25 what the assertion when you arrived at Dretelj you weighed 94 kilos is

Page 7919

1 based? Did you also weigh yourself immediately before going there?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know yourself that a

3 person always weighs themselves once a month at least. It could have been

4 maybe not exactly 94; it could have been 96 or 92. But before that I was

5 in Austria for 15 days. I don't know, a difference of 2 kilos more or

6 less. But when I was released I know exactly the number on the scales was

7 37 kilos.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 Defence now.

10 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: I have a couple of questions, in light of the

12 testimony.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas:

14 Q. Sir, good morning. You began by telling us that yesterday, when

15 you met with the Prosecutor, you had an opportunity to read your statement

16 twice; correct?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. And at that time, after reading it, you saw that there was one

19 error and you pointed that error out to the Prosecutor; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And, of course, the Prosecutor today told us that that was,

22 indeed, the case and then gave you an opportunity today to make any

23 additions or retractions concerning your statement; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And, of course, you indicated you saw no reason to make any

Page 7920

1 corrections, including the one that we just saw right now when you said

2 that you actually weighed 37. You were willing to stand by that

3 particular assertion that you weighed actually 32.

4 A. Maybe we didn't get to deal with every particular point yesterday,

5 but I had to correct it now because I want to say things exactly as they

6 were. There's not much importance to these 5 kilos. But I really want to

7 say what happened exactly to me and --

8 Q. I would agree with you to some extent on that. Incidentally, how

9 much do you weigh today, right now, since I take it you measure yourself

10 once a month, as you indicated?

11 A. 67 kilos now.

12 Q. Okay. And I take it, when you were a younger man, you were much

13 more robust, much heavier.

14 A. Well, I weighed 86 kilos when I was 18. At that time I weighed 86

15 kilos and I was not as weak as I am now. I was --

16 Q. Okay --

17 A. -- really hard-working when I was a young man. I wouldn't have

18 much to say about that.

19 Q. The point I want to get to in your -- is with respect to your

20 testimony today, when you were released from Dretelj. Today you told us

21 that before being released you were -- you and others were beaten. Do you

22 recall that part of your testimony?

23 A. I remember because that was that last moment of our stay in

24 Dretelj, just before they loaded us on to vehicles. Not only just me but

25 all the others. Seven or eight soldiers walked among us and beat whoever

Page 7921

1 they could lay their hands on, everybody.

2 Q. Right. You were rather descriptive in your testimony and that's

3 what caught my attention. Because when I look at your statement, you do

4 mention of other incidents of mistreatment, yet on page 8 in the English

5 version - I don't know what the page is on the B/C/S version - there's

6 absolutely no mention of any beatings prior to being released.

7 A. Well, if you did not find it, I don't think you read my statement,

8 because it's right here in the statement, in the report which is in front

9 of me, and it's accurate. I think you will read there that they kicked

10 us, they beat us with their rifles and the sticks, the handles of shovels,

11 and many other instruments that we were beaten with.

12 Q. Well, perhaps I missed it. But the portion I'm looking at is on

13 page 8, and I'll just read it in English. It says:

14 "I was released from Dretelj on 28th August 1993. On that day,

15 about 5 to 6.000 prisoners were released. They were all elderly, very

16 young or those in the poorest conditions. They put us on trucks and buses

17 to Vrda near Dreznica where the front line was. We walked across the

18 bridge in Dreznica to where our army was waiting."

19 That's the passage that I see with respect to August 28th, the

20 date of your release.

21 Now, as I indicated, sir, while you mentioned previous abuses

22 while you were staying there, there's absolutely nothing in your statement

23 with respect to any abuse upon your release.

24 A. I'm sorry, you missed one word in that statement. Not 5, 6.000,

25 but 500, 600.

Page 7922

1 Q. You're right. You're absolutely correct. Thank you. My eyesight

2 is going bad. Thank you for correcting me. Since you found -- you were

3 able to correct me on that, I take it you were also able to see that there

4 is nothing about beatings or mistreatment prior to being released in the

5 statement.

6 A. I think you either misread it, but it's mentioned in that

7 statement that I gave in Mostar. The beatings are mentioned. I don't

8 know how well you read it, how thoroughly you read it, but there are

9 references to abuse and to beatings.

10 JUDGE PRANDLER: One moment, and I apologise for interrupting you,

11 Mr. Karnavas. If I'm not mistaken, you said that there is nothing about

12 beatings or mistreatment prior to being released.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: On the day of release.

14 JUDGE PRANDLER: On the day, yes. But let me draw your attention,

15 sir, to page 8 of the statement, then around the middle of that, we will

16 see really - one, two, three, four - in the fifth paragraph, five, and it

17 is being read, and I quote:

18 "Personally I was beaten many times. Sometimes I would not be

19 beaten up for a week, and then on other occasions I would get beaten

20 several times a day. There was talk that some people were forced to do

21 sexual acts, but I didn't see it," et cetera.

22 So then here in the first two sentences there are references to

23 beatings, so it is what -- I saw some problems when you mentioned that in

24 your statement. Thank you.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, again -- yeah, Your Honour, it was just a

Page 7923

1 point of precision. I'm not contesting the fact that he wasn't beaten.

2 It's just that that one instance sticks out. Because he's so careful in

3 all other acts of mistreatment - and we're not contesting that - but on

4 this particular occasion of being released, he mentions -- and there's

5 nothing in the statement. It would be page 13 on the B/C/S version. I

6 just point that out for the Court's attention, for whatever it is worth.

7 Q. Just one last question, sir, did you mention --

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll clarify that.

9 Witness, you have heard counsel, who rightly says that in your

10 statement this incident wherein you were beaten before getting on the

11 truck is not specifically recounted. My colleague on the Bench tells me

12 that two paragraphs earlier you explained that you were beaten

13 repeatedly.

14 Now, to the best of your recollection - although I understand that

15 it's been a long time, but such things remain etched in one's memory -

16 when you spoke -- when you were interviewed by the investigator of the

17 Tribunal, did you really tell him everything, all about this in detail?

18 And is it him who synthesised all this information, who summarised this in

19 one sentence, "I was beaten many times"? Is that the way it happened with

20 your interview?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, look, these questions have

22 come up now about the transport from Dretelj to Dreznica, and it's

23 possible that, when I was giving that statement in Mostar, it was not

24 recorded or maybe I didn't tell the investigator specifically what

25 happened on the transport from Dretelj to Dreznica. Maybe different

Page 7924

1 questions were asked then than the questions that were asked now. But I

2 am answering now the questions that are being asked now, and I'm telling

3 the truth. And if there is something suspicious or dubious about my

4 account of the trip from Vrda to Dreznica, you can find a hundred

5 witnesses to corroborate what I'm saying.

6 I am now answering questions directly. Maybe the investigator who

7 took this statement didn't ask me specifically what happened from Capljina

8 to Vrda or from Vrda to Dreznica until you got to your own army. So the

9 things that are being asked today are not necessarily the same that were

10 being asked then.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions.

12 Thank you very much, sir.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.

14 Mr. Murphy.

15 MR. MURPHY: Your Honours, no questions.

16 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have just a short

17 question for clarification.

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Just one small point. On

20 page 8 of your statement given to investigators in Mostar for this

21 Tribunal - in English it's on page 5, the third whole paragraph on the

22 page; in the Croat version, it's paragraph 2 on page 8 - I will read to

23 you exactly the sentence that you wrote. It's after those events in the

24 village in October 1992. At the end of that passage you say the

25 following:

Page 7925

1 "Things went back to normal and I thought everything was going to

2 be all right. I was not scared that something would happen, because on

3 the news they said that the fighting in Prozor had been a mistake that

4 would not be repeated."

5 Do you remember that statement?

6 A. I do. Just a few hours before that statement I had arrived from

7 Austria, and since I was not in town, I was not able to know who exactly

8 is saying what. I just heard from people, from both Muslims and Croats,

9 or Catholics, whatever, that some session was being held in Prozor, that

10 they are not able to agree, the people holding that session. All these

11 were stories circulating in the village and people were seized by panic.

12 Q. Witness, you've already explained that. Just give me a precise

13 answer. You don't have to give me the whole story. On the news -- just

14 now you said it was something you heard from other people, but here in the

15 statement you say "on the news." Do you mean on the radio?

16 A. No, no, I didn't have occasion to listen to the radio. I mean the

17 news that you get from people, from one person to another. I heard that

18 it was a mistake. After the conflict, however, I heard on the news that

19 it was a mistake. But before the conflict, I was not able to hear

20 anything because I don't think the media was reporting anything. Just

21 after the conflict, they said it was a mistake, it was not a major

22 incident, just a conflict among the citizens. And I was seriously

23 injured; I was lying in the house of one neighbour, a Catholic --

24 Q. You said all that in your statement. We don't need to repeat it.

25 A. I can confirm to you now that that's the way it happened. Just

Page 7926

1 ask me directly.

2 Q. We have now discovered where the misunderstanding lies. So after

3 those events in the course of 1992, what you've just mentioned, "they said

4 on the news that fighting in Prozor have been a mistake that would not be

5 repeated," tell me just about that, very simply. When you say "on the

6 news" here, do you mean news on the radio?

7 A. Television.

8 Q. Oh, so it's television. That's what they said on television?

9 A. Yes. It was a statement from the Presidency.

10 Q. Okay. So you heard that on news, on TV news, that the fighting in

11 Prozor had been a mistake that would not be repeated. That's what they

12 reported on TV. Is that correct; yes or no?

13 A. It was on TV, because they made an appeal to the citizens of

14 Prozor to come back to their homes because it would not be repeated. And

15 then people who were able to return returned. And I was unable because I

16 was lying in the house of that Croat neighbour.

17 Q. Very well. After that, as you said in the next passage in your

18 statement, everything was all right until the 4th of July, 1993; correct?

19 A. [No interpretation]

20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. That's all.

21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have a few short

22 questions for this witness.

23 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good day to you. I am Vesna Alaburic,

25 an attorney from Zagreb. And in these proceedings I appear for General

Page 7927

1 Milivoj Petkovic. I will put a few questions to you with reference --

2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise. The last response

3 given by the witness has not entered the record. In his last reply, after

4 my question, he confirmed that everything was all right until the 4th of

5 July --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: They did not hear the

7 witness's reply.

8 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Witness, my last question to you

9 was: As of the 4th of July, 1993, everything was peaceful, as you said in

10 your statement; is that what you said?


12 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Okay. Thank you. I apologise for

13 interrupting.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, you have the

15 floor.

16 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, a few questions about the events in your village in

18 October 1992. On page 7 of your statement, which is page 5 in the English

19 text, you said, and I quote: "The fighting did not last long because the

20 Muslims were unable to defend themselves."

21 Could you please now explain what kind of weapons the Muslims had

22 at that point in time and why was it they were not able to defend

23 themselves?

24 A. I know for certain that in October 1992 a large number of people

25 from my hamlet, and even from Prozor, were unarmed and not prepared. We

Page 7928

1 were not expecting any kind of conflict between the Bosniaks and the

2 Croats. And I am sure they did not have weapons. They might have had a

3 rifle or an automatic rifle, but there were so few weapons they're not

4 even worth mentioning. If we had been attacked by only 20 soldiers, the

5 Muslims would not have been prepared to defend themselves.

6 Q. To the best of your knowledge, did any of the people in your

7 village have weapons?

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters ask: Could witness's other

9 microphone be switched on.

10 A. I know only one man in my village who had a --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat what he said.

12 A. And there were two hunting rifles.

13 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Witness, could you please repeat your answer to this question

15 because your microphone was not on. My question was: Did you know anyone

16 who had weapons among the people in your village?

17 A. I said in my village I know only one man who had a Kalashnikov,

18 that's an automatic rifle, and there were two hunting rifles. Those were

19 the weapons I knew about in my village before these conflicts and on the

20 day of the conflict.

21 Q. Could you tell me the name of the person who had a Kalashnikov?

22 A. I don't think that's necessary.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I asked you to stop, because if

24 the name would have been mentioned, one could have identified him.

25 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Could we move into private

Page 7929

1 session? I believe it might be useful for purposes of clarifying the

2 events in the village if we were to find out who was the person who had

3 the Kalashnikov.

4 Q. Witness, could you please tell us who this person was? And it

5 will be up to Their Honours to --

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into private session.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7930











11 Pages 7930-7937 redacted. Private session.















Page 7938

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are now in open session, Your

4 Honour.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In open session, I give the

6 floor to the Prosecution so that it can give us a list of the documents it

7 wishes to tender.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution would

9 tender the following documents and photographs which have been shown to

10 the witness during the course of his testimony: P 09716, under seal; P

11 03104, under seal; P 04588; P 08994; P 09685; P 09686; P 09718; P 09720; P

12 09719; and P 09721.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No objections from the Defence?

14 No objection from the part of the Defence.

15 So the exhibits under these numbers are admitted. P 03104, under

16 seal; P 09716 under seal; P 09718, P 09720; P 09719; and P 09721. I

17 believe one is missing. I read too quickly. P 045808 and 508994 [as

18 interpreted].

19 The court reporters made a mistake it's P 08994. It's P 08994. I

20 would like the Legal Officer to check that nothing has been missed out.

21 Witness, your testimony has come to an end. I'd like to thank you

22 for having come to testify, as was requested by the Prosecution, about

23 those events that unfolded in your country. On behalf of the Bench, we

24 wish you a safe journey home. Before you leave the courtroom, I shall ask

25 the usher to drop the blinds, please.

Page 7939

1 I would like to add that the registrar has told me, I don't

2 understand why the court reporter has not put in all those numbers. We

3 need to add P 09686 and P 09685.

4 MR. MURPHY: In addition to that, Your Honour, I think there may

5 be one other error. I see at line 9, the number P 045808 I think that

6 should be P 04588, if Mr. Mundis confirms that.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, that's correct.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. So it's Exhibit

9 number P 04588.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we shall move back into open

13 session. You can lift the blinds now since there is no witness in the

14 courtroom.

15 Mr. Mundis, before we have a break and before the end of this

16 hearing, because we are going to be holding another hearing after this

17 one, as far as next week is concerned.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Everything is as per the

19 court schedule with respect to next week. We have the witness who is

20 returning for cross-examination, followed by four crime base witnesses who

21 will be testifying for the duration of the week next week. There are no

22 changes to the schedule as previously circulated.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. As far as Tuesday's

24 witnesses are concerned, I think you'd planned to lead him for two hours.

25 I think if it's two hours, that's going to be short, if we have the

Page 7940

1 cross-examination on the same day, which means that we will probably have

2 to hear the witness on the Wednesday as well. But maybe it will be

3 shorter than those two hours which you have announced.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Well, Mr. President, I believe I speak for all the

5 Prosecution team when I say we're constantly trying to slim down the

6 amount of time spent on direct examination, to the greatest extent

7 possible. The witness appearing is a crime base victim witness, and I

8 don't believe that we'd have any problems finishing her testimony in one

9 complete day, in light of the fact that the Defence tend to take slightly

10 less time than they're allotted with respect to crime base witnesses, as a

11 general rule, at least based on what's happened thus far in the course of

12 the trial. So I don't anticipate any problems.

13 You'll also note on Thursday of next week we have one 92 ter

14 witness scheduled, so there is a little bit of flexibility, if we run into

15 some problems in the middle part of the week, with respect to finalising

16 the witnesses that we do have scheduled for next week.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

18 Mr. Karnavas.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Just one issue. While I was away, apparently - I

20 was absent from the courtroom - there was some indication from Mr. Mundis

21 himself as to how far along they were in their case. I believe he had

22 indicated something to the effect, about a quarter of the way through. In

23 light of the fact that, as I understand, the registrar has allotted 12

24 months and two weeks for this phase of the case, it would assist the

25 Defence if, at some point, the Prosecution could figure out exactly how

Page 7941

1 far along and when do they predict are they going to be on schedule. I

2 know we're counting hours as opposed to months and weeks, but it would

3 assist us for other purposes. And we're not trying to rush them through

4 their case.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right, right. I think that

6 would be useful to everybody because it's a question that I have already

7 discussed with the Judges.

8 Maybe it's too early, but, Mr. Mundis, do you have an idea?

9 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps if the registrar has convenient the amount of

10 hours that we've spent total to date, that might be of assistance.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I asked for it last time,

12 registrar, I asked for a calculation of hours. Maybe it's between 80 or

13 100 hours used by the Prosecution from the beginning, but I need an exact

14 total, not today but you have all of the weekend.

15 MR. MUNDIS: I can assure the Defence and the Trial Chamber that

16 being allotted 400 hours, I don't believe at this point in time that we're

17 going to be completing our case in 200 hours or 220 hours. I anticipate

18 that -- that we've used, by our count, about 83 hours. That is a little

19 bit less than 25 per cent of the time we've been allotted. Barring any

20 unforeseen circumstances, it would appear that we will be taking the full

21 400 hours that we have been allotted, which we have been planning on and

22 which we have relied upon in terms of structuring our case.

23 That's about all I can say at this point in time. If Your Honours

24 would like a more full explanation, we might be in a position to prepare

25 something that we could do at some point in the near future. But I need

Page 7942

1 to be very clear that we will be taking the full amount of time that the

2 Trial Chamber has allocated to us. We will be taking that figure of 400

3 hours for direct examination and factor that into all of our planning, and

4 we have relied upon that figure for purposes of structuring the

5 Prosecution case.

6 So I don't believe that we'll be in a position to significantly

7 reduce that number, and we're not intending on doing so. But again, if it

8 would be helpful to the Chamber, I'll discuss with my colleagues and we

9 can perhaps have a discussion with a little more preparation in the very

10 near future.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, but everybody should have a

12 document to know where we are going and not to go straight into a wall.

13 We need to have an overall document to see, one, if you are behind your

14 schedule - I don't think you are - if are following a good tempo and to

15 give time to the Defence to prepare themselves. They have a lot of work

16 to do and they have to prepare cross-examination, and they have to also

17 prepare their Defence case. For that it is necessary to have certain

18 parameters that would allow everybody to work well and usefully.

19 If there are no other matters to raise, we are going to adjourn

20 now, and we will continue in ex parte in 30 minutes. So I invite you all

21 to come back here again on Monday, at 2.15.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.05 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day of

24 October, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.