Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8638

1 Wednesday, 18 October 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you call the

7 case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. This

9 is case IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, registrar.

11 I would like to greet all the people present in the courtroom this

12 afternoon, the representatives from the Prosecution, Defence counsel, and

13 the accused. We need to resume the witness testimony today, but before

14 that, the Trial Chamber is going to rule on four decisions. This will be

15 done orally.

16 The first oral decision to be handed down relates to the joint

17 application filed by the Defence to exclude the testimony of Witness B [as

18 interpreted]. This decision concerns the joint oral application of the

19 12th of October filed by the Defence with a view to excluding the

20 testimony of Witness B. The Defence has invoked the fact that the witness

21 refused to answer some of the questions put by the Defence teams.

22 The Chamber notes that the Rules of Procedure and Evidence does

23 not allow for the exclusion of such a witness. Paragraph of the Rules,

24 paragraph (A)(i) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence can only state

25 that a witness's testimony is excluded when he refuses to answer an

Page 8639

1 answer -- a question despite a question put to him by the Trial Chamber.

2 This is deemed to be contempt of court. In such a case, such a conviction

3 would have been out of proportion with reality of facts stated. Insofar

4 as contrary to what the Defence has ascertained, the witness in general

5 terms has answered the questions that were put to him with a degree of

6 reticence admittedly, but after having been asked -- after having been

7 asked to respond to these questions.

8 The Trial Chamber feels, therefore, that Witness B -- U's

9 testimony cannot excluded from the case file. However, the Trial Chamber

10 will bear in mind the behaviour of the witness during his testimony when

11 it -- the time will come to assess the weight to be given to the testimony

12 of this particular person.

13 The Trial Chamber will also do this in light of the entire case

14 file.

15 The Trial Chamber therefore asks both parties to specify by next

16 Monday the number of the exhibits which will be asked to be tendered.

17 This has not been done yet.

18 Second oral decision to be handed down today. Oral decision

19 concerning to the objections filed jointly by Defence team to add on more

20 names of the witness list of the Prosecution.

21 On the 2nd of October, 2006, the Defence filed a written motion

22 whereby it objected to the testimony of Terry Cameron and Carry Spork as

23 the names were not on the list provided on the 19th of January, 2006

24 pursuant to Rule 65 ter of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence. In

25 support of this, the Defence has alleged that the Prosecutor has

Page 8640

1 surreptitiously included these two names on the chart of the 14th of

2 September, 2006 thereby providing no further explanation and why these

3 people were called to testify.

4 In its response of the 13th of October, 2006, the Prosecutor

5 reminded us by providing this list on the 6th -- 19th of January, 2006,

6 the Prosecutor had stated that it might still call witnesses whose names

7 were not on that list when and if the testimony of this witnesses would be

8 useful to authenticate some of the documents. And that this would be part

9 of the case of the Prosecution case.

10 This is how the Prosecution justified the calling of these two

11 witnesses.

12 According to the case law of the Tribunal, the Prosecution must,

13 as a general rule, stick to the list of witness of the 19th of January,

14 2006 pursuant to Article 65 ter (E)(ii) of the Rules of Procedure and

15 Evidence.

16 The drawing up of such a list would become senseless if the

17 Prosecution could just change it as it pleased. Bearing this in mind, the

18 Trial Chamber reckons that if the Prosecution intends to call to testify

19 witnesses whose names are not on the witness list, it must file a reasoned

20 motion to this effect.

21 The Chamber therefore does not rule on the testimony of Terry

22 Cameron pursuant to 64 ter of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence. The

23 Trial Chamber is therefore waiting for the Prosecutor to file a motion on

24 this particular issue and thereby has stayed its decision.

25 Third decision, which is an oral decision, relating to the

Page 8641

1 admitting of documents presented through Witness BR. The Trial Chamber

2 will rule on the admission of the documents presented through Witness BR

3 who testified on the 10th of October, 2006.

4 The Trial Chamber has decided to admit the six following pieces of

5 evidence presented by the Prosecution for the foregoing reasons. They

6 are -- have a probative value and are of some relevance. I shall now

7 quote the exhibits in question: P 00608 under seal, P 00673 under seal, P

8 03234, P 02999, P 09704, P 00679.

9 In addition, the Trial Chamber asks the registrar to put under

10 seal Exhibit numbers -- documents 00640 and 009376 that have already been

11 tendered and admitted.

12 The Trial Chamber acknowledges the fact that the Defence team has

13 not asked to have any documents admitted.

14 This is our last oral decision relating to the admission of the

15 exhibits presented through Witness BT. The trial will rule on the

16 admission of the testimony of Witness BT, who testified on the 12th of

17 October, 2006.

18 The Trial Chamber has decided to admit the seven following pieces

19 of evidence presented by the Prosecution for the reason that they have a

20 certain relevance and probative value. I shall now give the numbers of

21 these documents. P 09714 under seal, P 03289 under seal, as far as pages

22 32, 38, 85, and 97 are concerned. P 03948 under seal, P 09696 under seal.

23 That said, this document had already been partially admitted. P 08736

24 under seal, P 03531, P 03325. Lastly, the Chamber would like to specify

25 the fact that Exhibit number 03234 has already been admitted during the

Page 8642

1 testimony of Witness BR.

2 The Trial Chamber acknowledges the fact that the Defence teams

3 have not asked to have any documents tendered into evidence.

4 In addition, other written decisions have been taken and have been

5 filed, and you can contact the Registry for further details.

6 I have been told that Ms. Alaburic has already had nine minutes of

7 her time. She therefore has 51 minutes left. After that, the Defence

8 counsel of Mr. Coric will have 30 minutes, and we shall hear another

9 witness.

10 I would like the Prosecution to think about this witness's

11 testimony. Perhaps the Prosecution could contemplate Rule 92 ter as far

12 as this particular witness is concerned so that we could gain some time.

13 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, good afternoon.


15 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic: [Continued]

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Williams, good afternoon. I will remind you

17 that yesterday we were talking about two orders issued by Milivoj Petkovic

18 of the 6th and 9th of January, 1993, and I will continue my

19 cross-examination based on those orders.

20 Let me remind you of a document, a milinfosum of the British Army

21 of the 11th of January, 1993, which was shown to you under number P 01094.

22 You may take a look at it, although I will not be asking you about any

23 details. It's P 01094. Paragraph five of this document refers to Gornji

24 Vakuf, and what the document notes for that day is that there was firing

25 on the village of Prusac from the Bosnian Serb army positions. That is

Page 8643

1 that the village was a target of artillery fire. There is a comment noted

2 alongside that piece of information, and that is that Prusac is person for

3 the defence of Bugojno.

4 My question is: In the first days of January, 1993, was there any

5 fighting between the Bosnian Serb army on the one side and the HVO and the

6 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the other?

7 A. In which particular area of the country?

8 Q. The area covered by you, the Gornji Vakuf area. I cannot ask you

9 about other areas because I assume you have no direct knowledge of those.

10 A. There were exchanges of fire that did not appear to be any big,

11 proper manoeuvre attacks going on. It was mainly just exchanges of fire.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You were going to be talking

13 about Gornji Vakuf? How far is Prusac from Gornji Vakuf.

14 THE WITNESS: Prusac is by Bugojno so it would probably be --

15 without looking at a map, at an educated guess, I would say at least 10

16 kilometres.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Another question I have very

18 briefly. From where the Serb artillery was positioned, could the shells

19 have fallen on Gornji Vakuf?

20 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honour. Yes. If they brought

21 them close enough to the front line they would be able to shell Gornji

22 Vakuf. During the fighting, within Gornji Vakuf itself and around Gornji

23 Vakuf, there is at least one incident that was recorded, although I can't

24 remember the date, where we believe that one artillery attack that landed

25 near to Gornji Vakuf was actually fired by the Serbs to try -- to get the

Page 8644

1 two combatants to fight again, against each other again.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could there have been, as far as

3 UNPROFOR is concerned, that any, likelihood that in those milinfosums when

4 you write that it's the HVO that was attacking with the artillery, that it

5 might have been the Serb artillery firing actually?

6 THE WITNESS: Just that one isolated incident, Your Honour.

7 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Williams, I put this question to you because of the next

9 question I wish to put: The orders issued by Milivoj Petkovic, which we

10 discussed yesterday and which are of a general nature, do they refer to

11 the fighting with the Bosnian Serb army in the nature of things?

12 A. As I recall from reading the document yesterday, it was a general

13 order to his OP zone commanders. It didn't specify whether it -- it

14 concerned the Bosnian Serbs or the armija, as I recall the document.

15 Q. Precisely so. Thank you very much. I would now like to go back

16 to your statements about the flag incident from early January, 1993.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, as you know, the

18 Trial Chamber is controlling the proceedings. You've just spent some time

19 discussing this Serb question. What are you getting at and what are you

20 trying to prove?

21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the order issued by

22 my client, General Petkovic, was represented by the Prosecution within the

23 context of alleged fighting between the HVO and the army of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina. This was a document issued by the 9th of January. My

25 question about the fighting with the Serbs was put with the intention of

Page 8645

1 showing that the HVO was at that time dealing with a conflict with the

2 Serbs. Furthermore, that this was a general order and the way this

3 document was interpreted by the OTP is erroneous.

4 The document refers primarily to the fighting with the Serbs, who

5 at that moment was still the only enemies of the HVO.

6 MR. BOS: Can we be a bit more specific which particular document

7 Ms. Alaburic is talking about, because I'm a bit in the dark about it.

8 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. This is a

9 document of the 9th of January, about raising combat readiness. P 01087.

10 Let me remind you that this document was shown as a kind of

11 intimation of the -- a conflict with the Muslims in the Gornji Vakuf area,

12 so I feel it my duty to point Their Honours to the true context of that

13 order.

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Ms. Alaburic --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: You affirm what the intention was here. Are you

17 testifying for your client? It says in connection with Geneva talks, and

18 I wonder where from you draw the affirmation that this was primarily aimed

19 at the Serbs. The witness did not say so. The witness says it is

20 indistinct.

21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness answered

22 my question in this way, but if we look at how the witness answered the

23 Prosecutor's question and the context in which this order was put by the

24 Prosecutor, you will see that previously it was interpreted as exclusively

25 an order aimed at the conflict in the Gornji Vakuf area. My intention was

Page 8646

1 not to interpret the document here but simply to clarify the context.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question, Witness. As

3 far as you're concerned in military terms, was there any need for the HVO

4 to step up its manpower levels because of the Serb problem?

5 THE WITNESS: As far as I'm aware, Your Honour, no, there was no

6 actual manoeuvre attacking going on. It was just exchanges of fire.

7 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] In this context, by your leave,

8 another order has just been handed to me which I had not intended to

9 tender. It was issued by Zeljko Siljeg on the 8th of January, and in the

10 preamble it says: "Today the enemy had 18 casualties at Kupres." This is

11 Serb army. "And there is a high possibilities that the enemy will fire on

12 villages or infiltrate sabotage groups behind our front lines.

13 Accordingly, I order that combat readiness be raised to highest level at

14 all defence lines."

15 This is a document we will be using further in the proceedings.

16 By your leave, I would like to move on to another topic and that is the

17 flag incident.

18 Q. Mr. Williams, on Monday you told us that --

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. This document

20 which you are quoting, does it have a number? Can we see it?

21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] The document I have just read out

22 is not a document I had prepared to tender now, and for this reason it has

23 not been handed to Your Honours. If you wish to check the accuracy of my

24 reading, the document can be placed on the ELMO and together with the

25 interpreters we can establish what its contents are.

Page 8647

1 However, that had not been my intention because I felt that this

2 would be what I have already elicited from the witness would be sufficient

3 to show what the context is.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, I trust you.

5 MR. BOS: [Previous translation continues] ... just reading out a

6 document which nobody knows what the document is and nobody has a copy of

7 it, and she's just reading it out into the record. I strongly object by

8 the way this is being done.

9 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will photocopy the

10 document during the break.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You should have done, Ms.

12 Alaburic, to support what you are saying. What you should have said is,

13 the order given by General Petkovic on the 19th of January, 1993 does this

14 apply to the Serbs or no and the witness says no and you pull out your

15 document and you say here I'm showing you a document which concerns the

16 Kupres incident, what do you think about it? And then the document -- you

17 show the document to him.

18 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first of all, I felt

19 it would be quite sufficient to show the Prosecution document to the

20 witness, P 01094, about the attack of the Serb army on the village of

21 Prusac, which is important for the defence of Bugojno. However, I do not

22 object to putting this document on the ELMO and tendering it, but we will

23 be spending a lot of time on that and I had not intended to dwell on this

24 incident so long. This had not been my intention to do this.

25 So let us move on to the flag incident.

Page 8648

1 Q. On Monday, you told us that the flag incident, which occurred in

2 early January, was one of the events that helped raise tensions between

3 the Croats and Muslims. Is this correct?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. You also told us that during the ceremony of raising the flag, a

6 Muslim policeman fired shots as a protest, and because of his reaction he

7 himself was shot, and that he was shot by a member of the HVO. Is this

8 correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. Answering a question by the Prosecutor concerning the events of

11 the 6th of January, 1993, when you were asked to go back to them, in

12 connection with the British Army information referring to that event,

13 document P 01068, you replied that the document reflected that incident.

14 I would now like us to look at this document together. It's P 01068.

15 In this document, the third paragraph, it says: "At around 1800

16 hours on Monday afternoon, the HVO raised a Ustasha flag in the town."

17 So let's talk about Monday. In the calendar for 1993, Mondays in

18 January -- one of the Mondays in January was the 4th. If Their Honours

19 wish to see the calendar for 1993 I have prepared it, but it's generally

20 available information.

21 If in your report of the 6th of January mention an incident that

22 happened on a Monday, this could only have been the 4th of January.

23 A. Yes, that is correct. This is the battalion milinfosum and it is

24 compiled after all the reports from the outlying stations have been

25 brought in, and so if it says at 1500 hours on Monday, then it will be

Page 8649

1 referring to that Monday the 4th or whatever Monday it was.

2 Q. Very well. As you told us about an incident of the 4th of

3 January -- of the 6th, not the 4th of January, interpreter's correction,

4 my question is: Were you referring to the same incident that this

5 information refers to?

6 A. Without reading to what you're referring to, the 6th of January, I

7 would say this one -- this paragraph here that we are reading now took

8 place on the 4th of January. We had -- our only connection to send

9 information upwards to Vitez was by fax, INMARSAT fax, and we relied on

10 generators and things like that, and so sometimes there were a couple of

11 days delays where for technical problems we couldn't actually push the

12 information upwards.

13 Q. Mr. Williams --

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. Witness, I'm a

15 little bit surprised here. You've said that you had technical problems.

16 It was difficult to send your messages, and you're telling us that there

17 were problems as far as electricity was concerned. Fine. And there is an

18 event which has been highlighted by the Defence. This event took place on

19 Monday, the 4th of January, the story about the flags. Did you know that

20 there had been a flag problem in Prozor a few months early on which had

21 caused a lot of problems? Did you know that in Prozor there had been a

22 similar incident in October, 1992?

23 THE WITNESS: We knew that there had been problems in the October

24 in the Prozor area, and -- but the specifics of them we didn't know other

25 than the imam was under house arrest.

Page 8650

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. When a major

2 incident occurs, can't you report this to your superior over the

3 telephone? You had a satellite telephone, didn't you? Couldn't you tell

4 them about this and inform them live as one says in your language.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, we could, Your Honour, but in October 1992 we

6 hadn't actually deployed. It was just our lead elements that were moving

7 through, and we had problems with the satellite systems, and we had

8 problems maintaining power for the satellite systems, and so sometimes

9 there were delays before we could get information up -- up the chain of

10 command.

11 At that very early stage, the October, November time, we, to be

12 brutally frank, were not particularly bothered what the warring factions

13 did to each other so long as it did not close the route.

14 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Williams, we'd be grateful to you if you'd explain to us what

16 the -- what kind of flag the Ustasha flag is that you mentioned.

17 A. It -- as I recall, it is a Croatian-type flag with a Croatian

18 shield in the centre, red and white chequer-board-type shield with a large

19 U on it.

20 Q. And was it that kind of flag with the U in the first square that

21 you saw being raised in Gornji Vakuf at -- at that occasion?

22 A. I didn't see it personally. It caused a great deal of friction.

23 Our commanding officer in B Company had both of the local commanders in

24 over it to try to diffuse the situation, and it was the claim of the

25 armija that it was a Ustasha flag.

Page 8651

1 Q. Very well. Yes. Then the situation is clear if that was

2 something that the BH army claimed.

3 Now, let's move on a few days and get to the 13th of January,

4 1993. Do you remember that on that occasion Mr. Siljeg and Mr. Andric,

5 that they came to Gornji Vakuf for negotiations with representatives of

6 the BH army? And we're talking about the 13th of January now, 1993.

7 A. I cannot be specific about the dates, and I cannot be specific

8 about who was together in which talk, in which set of talks, but I do know

9 Colonel Siljeg came to Gornji Vakuf for talks several times, and I do know

10 that Colonel Andric came.

11 Q. Do you remember those talks being held before the heavier

12 conflicts broke out in the second half of January?

13 A. As I remember or recall the events, there were a series of minor

14 events such as the flag event that you mentioned before that just

15 gradually stoked up and stoked up the situation. There was then a

16 deployment by the HVO, but where they secured a perimeter, so to speak.

17 And then there was the ultimatum, and then there was the main attack.

18 Q. Yes. We'll come to that. But do you remember the 11th and 12th

19 of January as reflected in the indictment?

20 A. Like I said before, I cannot remember the specific dates, but that

21 was the general order of things. You would have to ask me about something

22 specific for that date.

23 Q. I'll ask you something more specific, but I was sure that you

24 remembered the negotiations that took place before the more fierce

25 conflicts began.

Page 8652

1 Now, would you look in my sets of documents and also we'll place

2 the document on e-court, P 01115. It is an order by Milivoj Petkovic

3 dated the 13th of January, 1993, and it relates to conflict situations

4 between the Muslims and Croats, incidents that broke out. And in the

5 introduction, as you're able to see now on your screens, it says and I

6 quote "that over the past few days the relations between Croats and

7 Muslims has deteriorated and in order to prevent any conflicts which go to

8 the detriment of both sides, I hereby order, first of all, that all HVO

9 commands must identify the causes of conflicts in their territory.

10 2. Immediately establish contact with the Muslim side and solve

11 the problems through talks.

12 3. Prevent any possible attempts by lower commands to solve the

13 problems that arise.

14 4. Wherever possible, set up joint teams with the Muslim side to

15 solve the past or current conflicts.

16 5. Make efforts to remove roadblocks and newly established

17 check-points.

18 6. To propose a meeting of the commands at least once during the

19 day to analyse the situation on the ground and envisage joint measures.

20 7. Forward regular and interim reports ..."

21 Mr. Williams, were you aware of these attempts made by the Main

22 Staff to contribute to quelling the situation on the territory of Gornji

23 Vakuf?

24 A. Yes, I am. There were attempts by both sides to diffuse the

25 situation. However, the -- their success varied. Some cease-fires just

Page 8653

1 never came into effect at all and they were just totally ignored. Some

2 lasted a matter of an hour before it was started again, and some lasted

3 substantially longer so we could get some aid convoys through.

4 Q. Yes. That was more or less what it was like.

5 Now, I want to ask you this: Did you know about attempts made by

6 the HVO command to communicate directly with the commanders of the BH army

7 and to have them help diffuse the situation? In that context, let's take

8 a look at a document first, which in my set has the number 4D 00340. And

9 may we have it on e-court as well, please.

10 It is a letter from Mr. Arif Pasalic, commander of the 4th Corps,

11 in which he informs the command of the 3rd Corps of Milivoj Petkovic's

12 order that we looked at a moment ago. From this document, we can see that

13 Arif Pasalic had contacted Milivoj Petkovic to have him help diffuse the

14 situation, that Milivoj Petkovic, pursuant to that issued the order we

15 looked at a moment ago, that Milivoj Petkovic informed Arif Pasalic

16 thereof, and that Arif Pasalic in his turn then informed the command of

17 the 3rd Corps.

18 Did you know that the commanders of the two armies at the level of

19 command -- the commands endeavoured to solve the problems on the ground?

20 A. They gave the impression that they were trying to solve the

21 problems on the ground, yes, but --

22 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Now, with respect to the alleged ultimatum

23 that you mention, I'd like us to look at a document first P 01174.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please, before we

25 go on to the next document. I'd like to go back to the other document,

Page 8654

1 00340.

2 Witness, could you take a look at (c), 2(c), paragraph 2(c).

3 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you read the sentence out to

5 us.

6 THE WITNESS: It says, Your Honour, possible attempts by lower

7 commands to try to solve arisen problems by force are to be stopped.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now, in your

9 opinion, how would lower commands be -- how would it be possible for lower

10 commands not to follow the orders issued by superior commands?

11 THE WITNESS: At this particular time, you would have to

12 appreciate that there were an awful lot of people with guns, and so the

13 commanders would meet with some success in getting their proper troops

14 under control, but renegade elements would not stop, and that would slowly

15 suck the regular troops back in to -- to fighting, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. And you, Mr. Williams, for that clarification. Now, the next

19 document that I'd like us to take a look at is P 01174, and it is a

20 document signed by the commander of the 3rd Corps of the BH army, Enver

21 Hadzihasanovic, and it refers to talks held on the 16th of January, 1993,

22 which you described to us during your testimony and which are referred to

23 in the BritBat document for the 16th of January.

24 Let's start off by seeing what Hadzihasanovic wrote, and then

25 we'll compare this with the BritBat document.

Page 8655

1 Hadzihasanovic, and that's at the end of the second sentence, said

2 that at a meeting the representatives of the HVO presented the express --

3 their express views with the demands they wanted to be carried out. Set

4 forth an explicit position with the demands they wanted to be carried out.

5 Now, at the end of the document, it says: "Regardless of their

6 interpretation, these demands were not an ultimatum."

7 Now, on the basis of those two sentences, would it be valid to

8 conclude that the representatives of the HVO once again emphasised that it

9 was not an ultimatum but that they were explicit demands?

10 A. It was delivered as an ultimatum with a 24-hour deadline, and I

11 think if you look at page 2 it mentions that, where it says if these

12 demands are not carried out by tomorrow at midnight or there is no desire

13 to carry them out, they will not wait for the following day.

14 Q. Very well. Now, whether it was an ultimatum or explicit demand, I

15 suggest we deal with that issue later on, but tell me now whether the

16 representatives of the Croats at that time meeting, according to what

17 Hadzihasanovic recorded, did they say that it was an explicit demand?

18 A. They read out a list of what they wanted and gave the armija 24

19 hours to comply.

20 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, if we look at what the

21 representatives of the HVO demanded of the BH army, and we can look at

22 that together, the bullet points or sentences after the bullet points, we

23 don't have a lot of time to go through it all, but if we could look

24 through it quickly. To pull out the units towards the villages, to have

25 all units returned to the places they came from in the first place, which

Page 8656

1 refers to Jajce. And I'm skipping over a few sentences now. To establish

2 a joint check-point with proportionate representatives of the Croat and

3 Muslim side, and it is necessary to have a mixed composition of military

4 policemen, and all militant units to be withdrawn to the villages and

5 town. Gornji Vakuf must not have a single soldier with a long weapon with

6 the exception of a mixed military police patrol.

7 Now, we can skip over the other parts. I think that will suffice.

8 It's enough for my question.

9 Now, these proposals, did they go along the lines of

10 demilitarising Gornji Vakuf in a sense, and would not compliance with

11 those demands in fact have meant that in Gornji Vakuf no conflicts could

12 break out by the same token?

13 A. If those demands had been put in place and had been applicable to

14 both sides, the HVO and the armija, then, yes, probably there would have

15 been no conflict.

16 Q. Can you tell us what was true for the BH army and not for the HVO?

17 Because it says all militant units. So which -- that does not mean just

18 the BH army. It would apply to the HVO as well.

19 A. Yes. Yes. As I -- as I just replied, if it -- if it would have

20 been applied to both sides, then, yes, it would probably have stopped the

21 conflict.

22 Q. I'm trying to tell you that it did apply to both sides. That's

23 what I wanted to say. It was a proposal that applied to both sides.

24 A. Yes, I agree it was a proposal that applied to both sides, but it

25 never came into effect on the ground.

Page 8657

1 Q. And tell me, please, could it have taken root if the Bosnian

2 Herzegovinian army never accepted it?

3 A. No, because if -- if the armija wouldn't accept it, then neither

4 would the HVO. So basically it was a blanket thing. They either both

5 complied with it or neither of them would comply with it.

6 Q. Yes. Do you agree that the situation was as follows: That the HVO

7 made this proposal, which was to have applied to both sides, whereas the

8 BH army did not accept that proposal, and because of that, the proposal

9 couldn't be put into effect, take root?

10 A. Yes, I do agree.

11 Q. Thank you. I'd now like us to compare this report by Enver

12 Hadzihasanovic with the BritBat report. The number is --

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. This

14 document is important, and I'd like some -- something to be specified.

15 The negotiating commission to resolve the problems in Gornji

16 Vakuf, the conflict there was made up of HVO representatives and BHA

17 representatives, and we can see Colonel Merdan among them. This report

18 was also signed by the commander of the 3rd Corps. It appears that this

19 report is the subject of a discussions between the BH army and the HVO,

20 and it would appear that the HVO explicitly stated its point of view in

21 formal terms. And I'm reading the first sentence where it says that the

22 organisation of provinces is based on reciprocity. And the second

23 sentence says that there was -- that they were in touch with Geneva

24 because this could be modified in Geneva.

25 Now, one gains the impression that -- and drawing conclusions from

Page 8658

1 that that the HVO is demanding of the ABiH to withdraw its units, et

2 cetera, and to subordinate the ABiH to the HVO with an HVO commander. And

3 then I can see that they don't want the BH army to be commanded with

4 Topcic, Agic, and Prijic, and that the new commander -- designated

5 commander would be Commander Merdan, Colonel Merdan.

6 Now, on page 2 of that same document, General Hadzihasanovic

7 indicates that this does not represent an ultimatum but a categoric

8 position, and that he considers that the demand is in fact an ultimatum.

9 Now, what do you think about all that? The demands made by the

10 HVO formulated through this commission, did they reflect the atmosphere of

11 the times, because it was a meeting that took place on the 16th of

12 January, 1993?

13 So the HVO taking these positions, does that correspond to what

14 they were thinking at the time? And perhaps you described that situation

15 through your milinfosums, or did the local HVO commanders tell you about

16 that? Was that their position you would say?

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. The -- the -- the bullet points

18 in the document are -- are the points that were brought up as part of what

19 I refer to as the ultimatum. The reason we called it an ultimatum was

20 because of the time zone on it, that they had to be done within 24 hours,

21 or else.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So as far as you were concerned,

23 you had the feeling that the HVO was in fact putting an ultimatum to the

24 BH army.

25 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, because of the time limit on it.

Page 8659

1 And the threat, Your Honour, that they would take further action.

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: If one would -- would formulate very succinctly,

3 is the demand not almost a demand to surrender?

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand, Your Honour. The -- from the

5 Muslim perspective, yes, they regarded it as a surrender, and they were

6 not prepared to do it.

7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I note, Witness, that at the end

9 of the document, and you can take a look, the last paragraph, the 3rd

10 Corps commander demands that Izetbegovic is informed of this demand --

11 these demands.

12 What is your interpretation of that? Was the situation that

13 serious that President Izetbegovic, who was the Supreme Commander of the

14 BH army, should be informed? Did it merit that? What do you think?

15 THE WITNESS: As I recall the events of the time at a higher

16 level, the -- this particular incident would, if it went ahead, derail the

17 Vance-Owen Peace Plan, and that was why probably Colonel Merdan wanted his

18 president to be aware of the situation.

19 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation].

20 Q. Mr. Williams, I'm now going to show you another document that

21 we've already discussed and which I consider to be the key document

22 furnishing your opinion that this was indeed an ultimatum. Take a look at

23 the Prosecution's set of documents, their bundle, and it is document P

24 01163.

25 I did not prepare this document for Their Honours because I assume

Page 8660

1 that Their Honours still have the Prosecution bundle for this witness. It

2 is --

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Rest assured, Counsel, that we

4 do have it. Yes. It's not leaving the table.

5 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation].

6 Q. It is a report by BritBat for the 16th of January, and under point

7 E, the meeting is recounted, and the alleged words used by Colonel Andric

8 or recorded, and the one but last sentence or two penultimate sentences of

9 Andric's alleged words in the BritBat report read as follows and I quote:

10 "There are two HVO brigades in Prozor, supported by tanks and artillery

11 which are ready to advance towards Gornji Vakuf. You have until tomorrow

12 to meet all our demands and to act upon them or to confront the

13 consequences as an alternative."

14 If you have had time to look through Enver Hadzihasanovic's report

15 in its entirety does he mention 2 brigades in Prozor ready with tanks and

16 artillery to move towards Gornji Vakuf, or did he hear something like --

17 or did the BritBat representative just hear of things like that that

18 recorded the minutes of the meeting?

19 A. No. What the notes here in the -- or the entry here in the

20 milinfosum is virtually word-for-word a translation of what was written

21 down in that meeting.

22 Q. I conclude that you cannot comment on how the BritBat member who

23 wrote this or attended the meeting heard about the brigade in Prozor, the

24 artillery and tanks, how they came to hear of it, whereas Enver

25 Hadzihasanovic didn't. You can't comment on that?

Page 8661

1 A. I cannot comment on that because I do not know what General

2 Hadzihasanovic did or didn't at this particular moment in time deem the

3 most important piece of information to get to his president.

4 Q. Very well. Fine. Now we can move on to the events -- or, rather,

5 the documents after the conflict, the 19th of January, and all those

6 documents so that we can see the efforts made by the top-ranking HVO

7 commanders to calm the situation down in -- on the ground.

8 When you spoke about the chain of command in the HVO, the

9 hierarchy there, you said that Zeljko Siljeg -- that Milivoj Petkovic was

10 Zeljko Siljeg's superior your in Mostar. Do you know who was another of

11 Zeljko Siljeg's superiors? Do you know who the Supreme Commander of the

12 armed forces of Herceg-Bosna was, for instance?

13 A. I can't -- can't recall, because I never actually met or dealt

14 with any paperwork concerning those gentlemen. I Just know Milivoj

15 Petkovic was, as I believe, the Chief of Staff for the HVO up at Mostar.

16 Q. Very well. Let us now take a look in my bundle at a document

17 numbered P 01211. It is an order by Mr. Mate Boban, who was the Supreme

18 Commander of the armed forces. I see that you're nodding. Does that mean

19 that you've just recollected that it was Mate Boban who was the Supreme

20 Commander? Have you just remembered that?

21 A. No. I misinterpreted your question. When you were referring to

22 earlier on, I thought you meant military-wise. Mate Boban was like a

23 politician-type person.

24 Q. Mate Boban was a politician, yes, but a civilian in all countries

25 is head of the army, in all democratic countries, and that what it was in

Page 8662

1 BH. He was the supreme -- on the 19th of January, Mate Boban issued an

2 order on banning HVO forces from implementing any offensives vis-a-vis the

3 BH army.

4 I don't want to read the whole document now, but tell me, the

5 document was sent to the representative of the defence department or,

6 rather, the head of the defence department and the Chief of Staff. Did

7 you know that the number one man of the armed forces of Herceg-Bosna, on

8 the 19th of January, issued an order ordering a stop to all combat

9 operations?

10 A. I probably would have known at the time, but I don't recall it now

11 because there were that many orders going down all the time to tell them

12 to stop fighting.

13 Q. Very well. Let's look at what happened on the following day. P

14 01238 is the document. The 20th of January. It's a joint order issued by

15 Milivoj Petkovic and Arif Pasalic, concerning the cessation of all combat

16 activities on the entire territory of Gornji Vakuf municipality, between

17 the HVO and the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Tell us, were you aware that Milivoj Petkovic and Arif Pasalic

19 issued such an order jointly?

20 A. Again, I would have probably known at the time, but I cannot

21 recall specifically now. Like I said before, that were that many orders

22 coming from commanders to tell them to stop fighting, sometimes two or

23 three a day, that -- specific ones.

24 Q. Did these orders arrive in your headquarters, the headquarters of

25 your command? As a rule, did you know about the existence of documents

Page 8663

1 such as joint orders issued by the highest-ranking officers?

2 A. As a rule, yes, we as UNPROFOR in Gornji Vakuf were made aware of

3 these orders. And then they were passed down to our soldiers as well that

4 a cease-fire was about to come into effect.

5 Q. Thank you. Could we now look at P 01293. This is a handwritten

6 document --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. The Defence

8 counsel has just shown you an order dated the 20th of January, which is

9 specific insofar as it's signed by both authorities, Petkovic and Pasalic.

10 When you read the order, you can see that this order makes UNPROFOR play a

11 role. It specifies that UNPROFOR, as well as the ECMM, must organise a

12 meeting between the commanders of the HVO BiH and ABiH.

13 You seem to be saying that you don't recollect this order. Are

14 you quite sure?

15 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honour, yeah. The specific order

16 itself is just one of order after order after order about cease-fires.

17 There were cease-fires where the UNPROFOR and the ECMM were involved, but

18 I cannot be specific to specific orders and specific dates. I just do not

19 remember the actual intimate detail of which date which order was given.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Evidently there were some combat activities even after this order

23 was issued, and for this reason on the 20th of April, in document P 01923,

24 Milivoj Petkovic issued another order. This order was issued from Geneva

25 on the 24th of January, and the document before us is not dated. However,

Page 8664

1 from a subsequent document issued by Zeljko Siljeg, which refers to this

2 order, we will see that it is an order issued on the 24th of January.

3 Milivoj Petkovic was in Geneva, and there was he informed that the

4 conflicts had not ended. Therefore, he issued this order from Geneva that

5 the HVO units in Gornji Vakuf should cease offensive actions against the

6 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And he also insists that Mate Boban's order

7 of the 19th of January, which we saw today, be complied with, as well as

8 the order of the 20th of January that we have seen here today.

9 Tell us, were you informed about the attempts of the most senior

10 people in the HVO staff to have these conflicts stop?

11 A. We were aware that at senior level they were trying to stop it.

12 However, their ability to control their own troops was letting them down

13 all the time.

14 Q. Evidently, even after this order the fighting did not stop

15 completely. So let us look at document 4D 00358.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. Let's still talk

17 about this written order which comes from Geneva. Could you look at this,

18 please.

19 This order, strangely enough we see the order "Urgent" mentioned

20 three times. Normally speaking, you write the word "urgent" once only.

21 Quite clearly, the person who wrote this order put the word in "urgent"

22 three times. As I can see that this must have been sent by mail -- by

23 e-mail. This is Colonel Siljeg's e-mail address here.

24 At item 1, we can see that the HVO unit at Gornji Vakuf must cease

25 operations against the ABiH straight away, and the units must obey Mate

Page 8665

1 Boban.

2 How do you understand this? According to you, the HVO units had

3 not complied with the cease-fire and were still attacking the ABiH. Can

4 you give us an explanation for this, or is the order based on wrong data?

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What was it?

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand, Your Honour. As it says in the

8 order that HVO units in Gornji Vakuf are to cease offensive operations

9 immediately. Yes, there were still attacks going on all the time. In the

10 end, our commanding officer Colonel Stewart stopped using the

11 word "cease-fire" and started used the word "a reduction in firing"

12 instead because he thought that cease-fire was just a word that was

13 meaningless in that situation.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you say Colonel Siljeg was

15 not complying with the orders, because of his own accord --

16 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour. From reading this I would say that

17 Colonel Siljeg was having problems with some of his sub-units and was

18 trying to make them comply with the order and that they weren't.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So why did the sub-units go on

20 fighting? What kind of explanation can you provide for this given that

21 the negotiations were under way in Geneva and General Petkovic was in

22 Geneva in person, and the representatives of the ABiH were also in Geneva?

23 How can you explain this? As negotiations were under way, a cease-fire

24 had been decreed as was stated in the previous document we just saw which

25 was signed by Mate Boban. How could the units still be fighting?

Page 8666

1 You were an observer in charge of intelligence. How can you -- do

2 you understand this discrepancy about what's been decided in Geneva at the

3 highest levels of the HVO and that units on the ground were still

4 fighting?

5 THE WITNESS: The main problem was that the soldiers were not

6 under control enough, and as a result, a minor -- we would get a cease or

7 a stabilisation of the situation and a reduction of fire, and then a minor

8 incident between two villages or even just two other soldiers somewhere

9 else would slowly suck them all back in again. For instance, there were

10 two particular villages above Gornji Vakuf who seemed to be having their

11 own little war between themselves. And so although you could get the

12 troops from both sides to stop, this village would continue fighting and

13 it would slowly suck the troops back in. And that was why the cease-fires

14 used to keep collapsing, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Sir, are you aware of any action being taken

16 thereafter to discipline the commanders who had obviously disobeyed

17 orders, or was this simply passed under silence, or were there any efforts

18 to improve the enforcement of orders?

19 THE WITNESS: I am personally not aware of any discipline taken

20 against commanders who disobeyed their orders. However, these breaches

21 were brought up in negotiations and both sides said that they would deal

22 with the matter.

23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

24 THE WITNESS: Your Honour.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: With my colleague's indulgence. When he says

Page 8667

1 "sucked in" I think that needs clarification, because if I understand the

2 witness correctly, he's saying these undisciplined soldiers were provoking

3 and the provocations would cause clashes. I think that needs some

4 clarification.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. Basically to put it simply, the

6 example I used was the two villages. They would not stop fighting. One

7 village was Croat, one was Muslim. The soldiers nearby then got edgy

8 about whether their particular ethnic village was going to be attacked

9 properly or not, and so they would start firing in support of their

10 village, which would then mean that the other side's soldiers would start

11 firing in support of their village, and it would slowly stack up again and

12 the cease-fire would then collapse, Your Honour.

13 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Williams, based on what you have just told us, to the best of

15 your knowledge and based on your experience as a professional soldier,

16 please tell us, could it be said that the HVO commanders had effective

17 control over the units on the ground, or, rather, over all the men who

18 were carrying weapons and participating in the fighting?

19 A. By and large the commanders on both sides managed to control their

20 men. However, there were renegade elements who were out of control, who

21 destabilised the situation again.

22 Q. But that would mean that they did not have effective control over

23 combat activities in a certain area. Would that be correct? If something

24 happened that they were unable to control, this would mean that they did

25 not have effective control over all the events in a certain area. Would

Page 8668

1 that be a logical conclusion from everything you have told us?

2 A. Yes, it would. They -- they would try to exert control, but some

3 of the soldiers were reluctant to stop fighting and so just carried on.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's imagine that such a

5 situation would have occurred inside a British Battalion. For instance, a

6 British Battalion would not comply with the orders. What would have

7 happened? What would the commander have done in such a situation, and

8 what must a commander do in such a situation?

9 THE WITNESS: The immediate commander of the sub-unit or even the

10 individual concerned would be removed from his position there and then on

11 the spot, as would the soldier himself or sub-unit itself, and they would

12 then face disciplinary action, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Given your fair knowledge and

14 understanding on the ground, during this period of time, had you knowledge

15 of disciplinary action being taken against the culprits.

16 THE WITNESS: I had no knowledge, Your Honour, of any disciplinary

17 action being taken. I cannot say whether it was or was not done.

18 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Williams, when you told us what would be done in similar

20 situations were soldiers or officers of the British Army involved, let me

21 ask you the following: How long did the British Army need to establish

22 rules, a hierarchy, and discipline enabling a military soldier or an

23 officer to be immediately punished?

24 A. The history of the British Army is long and convoluted. We had a

25 regular army that we have now from about the mid-1960s onwards when we did

Page 8669

1 away with conscription. It has a set of regulations called the Queen's

2 regulations, and they are adhered to and soldiers dealt with accordingly.

3 There are -- we have what we call SOP, Standard Operating Procedures, and

4 we have standing orders, which is how they would behave at all times. And

5 the discipline within the British Army, if you breach it, is quite severe

6 to the extent that -- and you are held responsible for your men all the

7 time. And I can give you an example of that where I was find 300 pounds

8 because one of my soldiers had some ammunition and I was in hospital

9 having an operation at the time. That is the level of discipline within

10 the British Army.

11 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much. I just wanted to hear that one

12 does need a long tradition and it takes time for things to begin

13 functioning properly. But to go back to my question which was about

14 effective control. So to conclude, there were groups that could not be

15 controlled. We said that the commanders could not have effective control.

16 And my last question would be: It follows from everything you have said

17 that those commanders, with respect to those individual groups, could

18 neither command nor control their activities. Would that be correct?

19 A. In specific areas, yes.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I just need to know how much time I

22 have left in order to make the best use of it.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please.

24 You've had 44 minutes. You had 51 minutes left. You therefore

25 have seven minutes left. So if you could finish in seven minutes time and

Page 8670

1 then we'll have the break.

2 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Williams, please take a look at document P 01344 in my set of

4 documents. So we have now finished with Milivoj Petkovic's order of the

5 24th of January from Geneva. On the 25th, all fighting stopped. And now

6 another document was issued on the 29th of January addressed to Zeljko

7 Siljeg, who was at that time in Prozor, where the chief of the main HVO

8 staff demands first that "All our extremists be arrested and locked up."

9 It's P 01344. You can see it on the monitor as well. "Arrest and

10 imprison all our extremists.

11 2. Give a sharp warning to people from the command who resist you

12 and think differently.

13 3. Point out to the other side that you have given instructions

14 for a list to be made of Muslim refugees from Gornji Vakuf municipality in

15 the Republic of Croatia and that we will return them to Vakuf as soon as

16 possible.

17 This is my order. And really do charge someone from the civilian

18 structure with obtaining a list. We will sort out Bugojno as soon as

19 possible," and so on.

20 If you wish to comment the remaining points, that's fine, but

21 these are the most important ones for us.

22 Did you know that the highest-ranking HVO officers were trying,

23 through their orders and activities, to establish order to the maximum

24 extent possible under the circumstances?

25 A. At that moment in time they were giving us assurance that they

Page 8671

1 were trying to get renegade elements under control, yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Now --

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I add a question. Did you also see an echo

4 of this order? Was there any change in the behaviour? Did you -- did you

5 observe an effect?

6 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honour, yes. There was -- there

7 was a change in position of the HVO from -- during late January where they

8 became more interested in defusing the situation and getting some sort of

9 effective cease-fire into position.

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: Your Honour.

12 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Williams, could we just clarify your responses to His Honour

14 Judge Antonetti's questions as to whether HVO soldiers spent nights at

15 home or in barracks. From your response, one could conclude that those

16 who were married slept at home and that those who were not married slept

17 in barracks. That is why I will put the following series of questions to

18 you: In the factory where the HVO Brigade was quartered or where it had

19 its seat, that was in the immediate vicinity of the BritBat headquarters;

20 is that correct?

21 A. It was next door to us. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. In this factory, were there any dormitories there or no? Is it

23 correct to say that there were no dormitories there?

24 A. I cannot comment either way. I never went into the factory

25 itself.

Page 8672

1 Q. To the best of your knowledge, was there anything else there apart

2 from the command of the Ante Starcevic Brigade?

3 A. To the best -- again, to the best of my knowledge they had some

4 sort of stores or supplies there, and you would see lorries or small

5 trucks coming and going, delivering things and picking things up.

6 Q. I conclude from your report that nothing happened on the basis of

7 which you might conclude there were dormitories there and that soldiers

8 slept there. Would that be correct?

9 A. I cannot -- again, I cannot comment either way. Where they slept

10 was by and large up to them. It -- we noted some buildings that were used

11 as billets for troops, but it was not a big concern of ours where they

12 slept.

13 Q. Tell us, was it a rule for military units to be active in a

14 certain area composed of local people, people who actually lived in the

15 area?

16 A. The -- both the local armija brigade and the local HVO Brigade

17 were mainly local, and within the armija organisation, there was the TO

18 who were mainly village defence.

19 Q. You told us about shifts going into combat, so let me ask you the

20 following: If soldiers were not holding the shift on the front lines,

21 they could be in their own homes; is that correct?

22 A. We worked on the assumption from what we had seen that they had a

23 shift that involved a period of time on the front line, a period of time

24 doing administration and sorting things like that out, a period of time

25 getting ready to go back to the front line and then a period of time back

Page 8673

1 on the front line. So we worked on the assumption that it was probably

2 roughly one-third in each bit as they -- as they rotated round.

3 Q. In other words, whether a soldier was married or not was not a

4 precondition for their spending nights at home. Would that be correct?

5 A. I would -- the welfare of the HVO I know little about, but I would

6 assume if they operate along the lines of other armies they would allow

7 married soldiers to go home, and they would allow soldiers who lived

8 locally, whose parents or whoever lived there, to go home for a period of

9 leave, R and R.

10 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] By your leave, General Praljak

11 would like to intervene, so I will cede to him my right to put the next

12 question. The question is exclusively to do with shifts and the marital

13 status of soldiers, so it's of a technical nature.

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Does he want to deposit as a witness or as an

15 expert, or is there any other way in which we can hear him in this

16 context? I think not.

17 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Only a question.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may, Judge Trechsel, Mr. President. It is --

19 it is well-founded in this Tribunal that normally Defence counsel and

20 Prosecution are allowed to ask questions following questions posed by the

21 Judges. I assume that General Praljak wishes to add a question based on

22 questions posed by the Judges as I have two particular questions that I

23 would like to ask for clarification purposes. I think it is a

24 well-founded rule, because generally, not always but generally, Judges

25 reserve questioning until after the parties have questioned. I'm not

Page 8674

1 saying that that's -- that should be the practice, but there may be times,

2 and this may be one of them, where one or two questions may be sufficient.

3 So it's not out of practice.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Ms. Alaburic, so it

5 will be taken away from your time.

6 Mr. Praljak, put your question to the witness now.

7 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] A very simple question.

8 The barracks that the witness mentions was very near the BritBat

9 in Vakuf. The question is as follows: Did you ever see soldiers

10 exercising or having breakfast in the compound where the supposed barracks

11 would have been? Because soldiers come out, and they exercise or relax or

12 have breakfast or something like that. So was it just a gathering point

13 for people before leaving for the ground, or was it a barracks in that

14 sense that they slept there?

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please answer.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand the question. Like I said, I

17 never went inside the building, so I can't say what went on inside it. We

18 used to see soldiers coming and going all the time and vehicles coming and

19 going all the time. We viewed it as the headquarters of the local

20 brigade. Whether the soldiers actually lived in there properly, I do not

21 know.

22 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may General Petkovic

23 ask a question?

24 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one

25 question to this witness.

Page 8675

1 Witness, you keep referring to Territorial Defence unit here. Do

2 you know when the Territorial Defence units were abolished and no longer

3 existed in the BH army but the army of BH was formed?

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand your question, General. The date

5 of the formation of the BH army I do not know at all. The BH army

6 themselves used to refer to these units as TO, which is how I even know

7 it's pronounced TO.

8 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness, during that time

9 you were there, the BH army couldn't have told you that it was the TO

10 units, because as such, they did not exist. They were abolished and the

11 BH army established. Are you aware of that?

12 THE WITNESS: The local army commanders used to refer to these

13 units as TO, General. We only have what the local army commanders tell

14 us.

15 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

16 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] My time is up. Thank you for the

17 time allotted us.

18 Thank you, Mr. Williams.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's quarter to 4.00. We're

20 going to take a break for 20 minutes and reconvene at five past 4.00, at

21 which time the next Defence counsel, Mr. Coric's Defence counsel, will

22 have 30 minutes for their cross-examination, and then we'll conclude

23 because there's a second witness waiting.

24 We reconvene at five past 4.00.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's addendum: In the first oral

Page 8676

1 decision handed down today by the Presiding Judge, the Rule referred to is

2 Rule 77, contempt of the Tribunal. I quote the Tribunal in the exercise

3 of its inherent power may hold in contempt those who knowingly and

4 wilfully interfere with its administration of justice.

5 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have 30 minutes.

8 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 I'll try and be as brief as possible, and if any technical explanations

10 are needed, then my client will ask the questions.

11 Cross-examination by Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic:

12 Q. Good afternoon, sir. My name is Dijana Tomasegovic Tomic. I'm an

13 attorney at law from Zagreb, and I will be cross-examining you on behalf

14 of the fifth accused in this case.

15 Would you take the Prosecution bundle that you have before you and

16 look at P 01250. For e-court, it is page 3 of the document, paragraph 5.

17 The title is "Gornji Vakuf" in the English version. In the Croatian

18 version, it is also page 3, paragraph 1 this time.

19 Have you found the document?

20 A. Yes, I have.

21 Q. It's dated the 21st of January. It is from your regiment. Is

22 that right? A milinfosum?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. I'll start reading the passage that I mentioned starting out from

25 line eight of the English version in which it says as follows: "It was

Page 8677

1 reported that HVO forces this morning destroyed the majority Muslim

2 populated village of Hrasnica, TT 0441. The HVO soldiers responsible were

3 believed to be wearing blue helmets and to be equipped with three BTR-40s,

4 armoured vehicles. A blue BRDM-2 was reported to be located on the main

5 road junction GR 0272. Comment. Gornji Vakuf believe that these soldiers

6 may have been from a Herzegovinian military police unit."

7 While I was reading, I tried to emphasise "alleged"

8 and "possible." Now I'm interested in the following: Am I right in

9 concluding, in view of the words I emphasised, that the individual who

10 compiled this report was not quite sure about the reliability of this

11 piece of information?

12 A. No, that's not quite correct. The -- the person who compiled the

13 report was actually me. It was from debriefing a patrol on the ground,

14 and unless something as specific as this, unless I personally had seen it,

15 I would have to use a caveat, the caveat being "believed." I can't say

16 that that is what he saw. I can only say that that is what he told me he

17 saw.

18 Q. And that somebody who told you he saw it couldn't tell you which

19 unit they belonged to, but they could possibly belong to a military police

20 unit. I assume you knew which unit of the military police and from

21 what -- or, rather, had you known which unit and from what town then that

22 person -- or, rather, you would have written that; is that right?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. Thank you. Tell me now, please, yesterday in response to

25 questions from Mr. Murphy --

Page 8678

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Just a moment. I'm

2 looking at the rest of that passage. You said that it was you yourself

3 who wrote that report. Now, I'd like to know whether you also wrote

4 that "the BiH claimed to be holding 20 Croatian prisoners of which they

5 allege 17 were from a Croatian HV special forces unit which was normally

6 based in Split." So did you write that mention?

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, I wrote that, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when you say the BiH told

9 you, who told you that?

10 THE WITNESS: The -- the BiH officers that were in our base. It

11 was one of the points they brought up during one of the cease-fire

12 negotiations when -- as a gesture of goodwill, our commander used to try

13 to get them to divulge on both sides how many prisoners they had, et

14 cetera, et cetera, and try to get them to swap them back.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And were they actually

16 exchanged, those prisoners?

17 THE WITNESS: I do not know, Your Honour.

18 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Tell me, please, I'm sure you'll remember, yesterday in response

20 to questions from my learned friend Mr. Murphy, you said that the members

21 of the army that you say were military police with the blue helmets and

22 blue armoured vehicle, that you saw them only once from a distance of 150

23 to 200 yards. That's what you said yesterday, is it?

24 A. Sorry. Yes, that was my personally.

25 Q. Now, do you remember when you saw them?

Page 8679

1 A. I cannot be specific on a date, no, I'm afraid not.

2 Q. Tell me, please, I assume in view of the distance from which you

3 saw them that you weren't able to talk to them; is that right?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. I'd now like to remind you of your first day in the courtroom, and

6 during the examination-in-chief I think that this question was posed by

7 His Honour Judge Antonetti with respect to the identification of

8 individual units, HVO units, why in your reports it doesn't say exactly

9 what units these HVO members belonged to. And you said at the time that

10 you couldn't do that every time because the only way you were able to

11 identify them, which unit, which HVO soldier belonged to, was if you

12 talked to him and then that he told you that. Do you remember saying

13 that?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, if you look at the Prosecution bundle again, the

16 next document, P 03090.

17 In the English version it is on page 26, and in the Croatian it is

18 page 22. May we have it on e-court, please.

19 It is a report on the work of the military police of the Croatian

20 Community of Herceg-Bosna, an analysis of the situation from between

21 January to June, 1993. You remember the document I'm sure.

22 A. Can you just confirm its 3090 and what page, please?

23 Q. [No interpretation]

24 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I think we'll have to have that repeated

25 because there was no English interpretation at the time.

Page 8680

1 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Let me repeat. The document is P 03090. In the English version,

3 it is on page 26, the last two paragraphs, and the first paragraph of 27.

4 For the Croatian, it is page 22, last paragraph on that page, and page 23,

5 first paragraph. We have it on our screens, both pages.

6 From what you're looking at, I assume you can say that this part

7 of the report relates to the logistics service 233. And then the

8 "Quartermaster Service" is the last heading. And I think you'll agree

9 that it is a service which deals with logistical matters, supplies to

10 soldiers.

11 A. Yes. Yes, that is correct.

12 Q. I'd now like to ask you to look at part of the text under the

13 title of "Quartermaster Service," which begins the following words, for

14 example -- it says: "For example, in this period we were issued with and

15 distributed: 1 camouflage trousers," so many pieces. I don't have to

16 read the figures. "Camouflage jackets," once again the quantity.

17 "Camouflage shirts, white belts", and under 5, "VP military police badges

18 or flashes".

19 Now, among this equipment, do you see helmets mentioned at all? I

20 think it is obvious that there are no helmets mentioned here.

21 A. I see there are no helmets mentioned and no boots either.

22 Q. Now, would it be logical that those helmets would have to have

23 been on the list if they had been issued to the soldiers during that

24 period of time?

25 A. If it was part of this issue, yes.

Page 8681

1 Q. Thank you. Now, on e-court I'd like a Prosecution document which

2 isn't in the bundle to be put on the monitor, on the screen. 00956 is the

3 number. And may we look at the first page.

4 While we're waiting for the document, it is the same type of

5 document as the previous one, but the period is different. It is from

6 April to December, 1992. Comprises that period.

7 There's the first page. It is a military police report one

8 again.

9 Now, on e-court, page 15 of the English and page 14 of the

10 Croatian, please.

11 On the English page it says "Logistics" again. May we turn to the

12 next page, that is to say, page 16 in the English. And we see a table

13 there with the following: It says the type of military police unit on one

14 side, and at the top it says "Type of equipment." Then we

15 have "Handcuffs," so many pieces.

16 In the Croatian version this is page 15. So the next page,

17 please, for the Croatian. It says page 14 in the Croatian. Not that

18 table. That's the wrong one. Page 14, please. That's 13. Next page,

19 please. But the English version is the proper page.

20 It says "Handcuffs," so many pieces, "White belt," so many, "Stop

21 sign," and then the figure, "Badges," and the figure, "Coat of arms," and

22 the figure, and "Insignia," also the number there. There are no helmets

23 either. So I assume that your answer would be the same as it was last

24 time, that had they been issued during that period of time, they would

25 have been included in the table; is that right? Is that what you'd said?

Page 8682

1 A. Yes, I would agree with that. And again, I point out it doesn't

2 mention boots either.

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Witness, would you agree that also no clothing,

4 no trousers, et cetera, were distributed in that time?

5 THE WITNESS: According to that table that I'm looking at, Your

6 Honour, yes, I would agree.

7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

8 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Would you take up document P 3090 or 03090 once again. The

10 document we saw a moment ago. The English version is page 6 and 7. Last

11 paragraph on page 6 and first paragraph on page 7. And in the Croatian

12 version page 5, last paragraph, and the first paragraph of page 6.

13 It is the same report. I'm going to start reading.

14 Have you found the page?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. It says: "Operative zone of North-west Herzegovina." It's been

17 read already but not in its entirety. "At about 0800 hours on the same

18 day, the Military Police 2nd Battalion members from Livno and Posusje,

19 consisting of 30 military policemen, took control of the village of

20 Uzricje by which the ABiH circle around the town was penetrated. At 1435

21 hours, the military police 1st Light Assault Battalion members took

22 control of the village of Zdrince, which was already under BiH control."

23 And then on the next page: "During that time, the members from

24 the 2nd Battalion from Prozor took a number of villages and important

25 features held by the BH army in the part of the municipality which borders

Page 8683

1 with the municipalities of Prozor and Konjic."

2 In this report we can see that mention is made of two particular

3 villages, and they are Uzricje and Zdrince, and apart from that, other

4 villages are mentioned in part of the municipality bordering on the

5 municipalities of Prozor and Konjic. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. We cannot see any mention of the village of Hrasnica there at all;

8 is that right?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. Now on e-court may we have the next document T 09276. It is a

11 collection of maps. Map 16, in fact. The ERN number is 05045969. That's

12 the map we need. It shows the Gornji Vakuf area.

13 MR. BOS: Just -- I'm looking at the witness, and he's looking at

14 the wrong map. Maybe just -- Witness, it's -- yeah, it's that map, the

15 blue map. Yes.

16 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] He can take a look on the

17 screen. It's come up on our screens.

18 Q. Can you see the village of Hrasnica on the map?

19 A. Yes, I can.

20 Q. Would you draw a circle round it, please. Have you got a pencil?

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Now, can you see Prozor and Konjic at the bottom on the map?

23 Prozor and Konjic.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. On the map, would you draw in the border between Gornji Vakuf

Page 8684

1 municipality and Prozor and Konjic.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Thank you. Now, is it evident from this that Hrasnica is not on

4 the border of the Prozor-Konjic municipalities for the Gornji Vakuf

5 municipality? It's not a bordering village, is it?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Would it also be correct, then, that Hrasnica does not belong in

8 the report to the villages mentioned as those having been taken control of

9 bordering on the Prozor and Konjic municipalities?

10 A. For the units mentioned and the date confirmed in the document,

11 that is correct.

12 Q. Tell me, please, in view of the fact that we're dealing with a

13 collective report here and it is for entire period, then following on from

14 that logics, it should record all the more important military operations

15 that the unit took part in or, rather, those military police units took

16 part in that the report refers to. Would that be correct? Do you agree

17 with me there?

18 A. For the units that I mentioned in the report that would be

19 correct, yes.

20 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, as far as I understood you, Hrasnica,

21 according to your testimony, was attacked by the military police three

22 times. Would it not be logical, since it was a continuous attack, that

23 this kind of operation would also be mentioned in a report of this nature?

24 A. It was -- in my testimony I gave yesterday, I did not say that the

25 military police attacked the village three times. I said the village was

Page 8685

1 attacked three times. On one of those occasions it was the military

2 police.

3 Q. But you also said, if I remember correctly, that that village was

4 very important in the military sense. So such an important place would

5 certainly have been recorded, would it not, in a report of this kind? It

6 should have been.

7 A. It should have been. However, I can refer to the map that General

8 Praljak had up on the board yesterday, and you could see there was a

9 Croatian position on the road just below it. A Bosnian Croat position.

10 Q. I just asked you about the military police. I wasn't asking you

11 in general.

12 Tell me, please, in your statement you also said that during the

13 negotiations on a cease-fire that a subject of discussion --

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You referred to General

15 Praljak's map, and I was just consulting it while you were talking. You

16 said that there was a position, an HVO position, under the village,

17 beneath the village at the level of Moscani there were Croatian elements,

18 but opposite them there were ABiH elements, because the village of

19 Hrasnica, on the basis of the map, was lodged between two elements, two

20 BiH elements, and the HVO was opposite the BiH forces. So if there was an

21 offensive on the village, the offensive should have been directed at

22 breaking down the BH lines, ABiH lines.

23 So on the basis of the map you're looking at, with your marker,

24 could you give us the axis of the HVO offensive. Which direction did it

25 take? Where did the HVO forces come from?

Page 8686

1 THE WITNESS: I cannot, Your Honour, because I did not witness it.

2 I just debriefed the patrol of soldiers who did witness it. The actual

3 direction that it came from I cannot say, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Thank you.

5 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Now, the map with the markings, may it be given an IC number,

7 please.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Registrar. May we have

9 a number, please.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. That will be Exhibit IC 55, Your Honours.

11 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. Tell me, please, during the examination-in-chief -- yes. The

13 witness should sign the map, place his signature and the date on the map,

14 please. I omitted to say that.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. And could you just say that the bottom line represents the border

17 between the municipalities of Gornji Vakuf and Prozor and Konjic.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please speak into the microphone.

19 Thank you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

21 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. I think that today's date is the 18th of October, not the 17th.

23 Thank you.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Tell me, please, during the examination-in-chief you said that the

Page 8687

1 subject of Hrasnica was a subject discussed a number of times in the

2 negotiations to reach a cease-fire after the attacks; is that right? You

3 remember that? You remember saying that? Just yes or no, please.

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. You also said that during the negotiations the HVO did not deny

6 that that might have been done -- that the attacks might have been carried

7 out by the military police. Do you remember that?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. Tell me, please, in view of the fact that Hrasnica, according to

10 that report of yours, made an impression as an important event, should

11 that subject have been mentioned as a subject of negotiations in one of

12 your reports?

13 A. The --

14 Q. When you reported on the negotiations, should you have mentioned

15 that?

16 A. The negotiations were long and time-consuming, and most of the

17 points of the negotiations were passed up our chain of command by our

18 commander, Major Jones or Major Rule, depending on who was in command at

19 the time. Only a brief outline would go into the information summary, and

20 Hrasnica was one of the villages that was visited when we had the --

21 finally established the proper cease-fire so that the damage could be

22 catalogued.

23 Q. Tell me, please, can you recall now at least one report of yours

24 mentioning Hrasnica as an item on the agenda at negotiations?

25 A. I cannot, no.

Page 8688

1 Q. I'm asking you this because in all the reports provided to us by

2 the OTP, I have not mentioned to find a single reference to Hrasnica. I

3 have one further question in this connection. In your opinion, does

4 denial imply admission? You already said in response to Mr. Karnavas that

5 failure to deny something could be a tactical move rather than being

6 equivalent to an admission. Is that correct?

7 A. That is correct. And I'd also like to point out that the

8 information summary that you read is the battalion one. It would not be

9 as detailed on my area as the one that I wrote up to the battalion, which

10 would include debriefs from patrols, et cetera, et cetera, and would be

11 anything up to three, four, sometimes five pages long. And they would

12 then take out what they wanted to pass up to our brigade. So you would

13 need to get hold of the Gornji Vakuf daily military information summaries

14 to get more detail.

15 Q. Well, we looked at everything we were provided with. Tell me now,

16 please, I wish to go back to part of your testimony on the first day. It

17 may have been an infelicitous choice of words, but when speaking of the

18 soldiers who chopped off the hand of a handicapped Muslim person - I need

19 not name him because we've already discussed him here - you said that a

20 conflict arose because the Muslims wanted him to be tried in a normal

21 court in Zenica. What do you mean by "normal court"? Was it just a

22 clumsy choice of words or why would the court in Zenica be considered the

23 normal court in your opinion?

24 A. It wasn't my opinion, it was their opinion, and they regarded the

25 court in Zenica as the court of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 8689

1 Q. I now wish to go back to the flag incident. In your statement,

2 you said, and you repeated here, that the flag incident occurred when the

3 Croats raised a flag of the Bosnian Croats and a Muslim policeman fired a

4 shot over the flag as a sign of protest and then he was shot by someone.

5 You confirmed this as being correct today.

6 My question now is: Do you remember having given a statement on

7 the 18th of May and the 22nd of May, 1995, to the OTP of The Hague

8 Tribunal?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. I will now read out a part of that statement referring to that

11 event. It reads as follows --

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter does not have the exact wording.

13 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. "One day a TV crew filmed a policeman of the Bosnian Croats

15 raising the Croatian flag next to the flag of the Bosnian Muslims. The

16 Muslim policeman fired shots above their heads and started taking down the

17 Croatian flag. Then someone fired a shot at the Muslim policeman as he

18 was taking down the flag."

19 Do you remember this part of your statement?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. Would this be the correct description of the event as you remember

22 hearing about it if you didn't see it yourself?

23 A. The correct event is the one that's written in the daily military

24 information summary. That -- it did go in that order.

25 Q. In your daily infosum it doesn't mention the Bosnian Muslim flag

Page 8690

1 already being flown and the Croatian flag being raised next to it, and

2 there's also no mention of shooting over people's heads.

3 A. As I said earlier, you would need to get the daily information

4 summaries from Gornji Vakuf. It would have been condensed up at Vitez,

5 and they would not have gone into the same amount of detail. They would

6 have removed things and shortened it.

7 Q. What I read out to you was the statement you gave to the Office of

8 the Prosecutor. I wish to know whether you abide by this statement or

9 whether what you said then is incorrect. That's what I'd like to know.

10 A. No. There was -- there was a Bosnian flag there as well. I never

11 saw the incident, as it says -- as I've said before, I never saw the

12 incident. It was what was reported to us, and it was what our commander

13 dealt with to try to defuse what was a potentially threatening situation

14 to the route.

15 Q. But a Bosnian Muslim flag is mentioned here, not a Bosnian flag.

16 But I'm running out of time, so I have another question for you.

17 As far as I was able to understand, as an intelligence officer you

18 received a lot of information from officers or authorised spokespersons of

19 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina from the ground. Of course, you also

20 received information from the Croatian side, but you did get information

21 from members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 A. We gleaned information from both sides by talking to them on

23 check-points, out on the ground. We also gleaned information of

24 situations further afield by debriefing patrols and convoys as they moved

25 through, and virtually anybody that we could speak to who had seen

Page 8691

1 anything we would speak to and debrief and get them to show us on the map.

2 We kept highly detailed maps of where check-points were, and we needed to

3 know the attitude of the soldiers manning those checkpoints. They were a

4 good combat indicator. If the check-point suddenly -- manning suddenly

5 went up or more check-points appeared, we knew there was a problem in that

6 area. We got information from anywhere and everywhere we could.

7 Q. In view of the number of events occurring on the ground and their

8 complexity, and in view of the fact that your main task was to control the

9 roads, if I understood you correctly, is it possible that due to all these

10 circumstances there may have been misinformation? Perhaps you could have

11 been supplied with erroneous information by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

12 which you were unable to verify properly and completely, thoroughly.

13 A. Again, that is possible. However, both local commanders were

14 present at the talks where our officer commanding Major Rule tried to

15 defuse the situation, and there was no denial from the HVO side that that

16 incident had occurred.

17 Q. Thank you, sir.

18 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

19 I have no further questions.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Coric.

21 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, how much time do

22 I have?

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please.

24 Theoretically, Mr. Coric, you have no time at all because your

25 Defence counsel has had 34 minutes. What do we do?

Page 8692

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is a tricky problem for us,

3 because we have our countdown. We will grant you 10 minutes and no more.

4 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your

5 Honours.

6 Cross-examination by the Accused Coric:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, my name is Valentin Coric. I am an

8 accused. I will unfortunately have to shorten my list of questions, and I

9 will try to put very specific questions relating only to the military

10 police. Everything else I will leave aside.

11 With reference to my report to Bruno Stojic, His Honour Judge

12 Antonetti put quite a few questions, so I will not go into it, but in my

13 opinion, you showed a high degree of knowledge about the organisation of

14 the military police and the army as a whole. Therefore, I will mention

15 one activity, traffic control, and two points, Pavlovica, and

16 Karamustafic.

17 Can you tell me on what road are those two points?

18 A. Specifically, I can't without a map, but I believe Karamustafic

19 may be by the relay hill, to the south of Gornji Vakuf, but I cannot be

20 specific on that.

21 Q. Can we agree that those are main roads and that they're

22 significant check-points? Can you recall that?

23 A. I -- I can agree that the -- if that is where Karamustafic is

24 then, yes, it was on the main supply route. Going back to Pavlovica,

25 could that possibly have been the check-point to the north of Gornji Vakuf

Page 8693

1 on the road?

2 MR. BOS: Your Honours, I think it would assist if the witness

3 would have a map in front of him. It's a bit unfair that he has to give

4 response to these questions without a map.

5 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] I don't have time, Your

6 Honours, but I do have a question.

7 Q. Do you recall that in the first 10 days of January, 1993, these

8 were joint check-points of the military police of the ABiH and the

9 military police of the HVO? Do you remember that?

10 A. I do recall there were joint check-points, yes, I do.

11 Q. I don't have time to show the documents I've prepared, so I'll

12 move on.

13 Did you meet the commander of the military police in Gornji Vakuf

14 on both sides, the HVO and the ABiH? Did you ever meet with them?

15 A. I cannot recall. I don't believe I ever met them, no.

16 Q. Does the name Hanafija Prijic, also known as Paraga, mean anything

17 to you? Have you heard of that person?

18 A. I recognise the name Paraga, but in why I recognise it I do not

19 know.

20 Q. Paraga. I'll try and assist you. This person was the commander

21 of the military police at the time. He had about 300 men under his

22 command, and he is connected to the incident when Italian citizens who

23 were involved in humanitarian work were killed. Do you remember that?

24 A. I recall the incident but I believe it may have occurred just

25 after we left the country. Am I right in saying that Paraga was a Muslim

Page 8694

1 commander and he was at the time of the Gornji Vakuf trouble who was in

2 Bistrica or that area? Did he have a distinctive green beret with two

3 badges on?

4 Q. Yes. That's the man. I would like to jog your memory. In the

5 town there was a motel which was the headquarters of the Green Berets. Is

6 this correct?

7 A. The headquarters of the armija, as I recall, was in a hotel, yes.

8 Q. Do you remember an explosion that occurred in that hotel?

9 A. I remember there being an explosion at the hotel, and as I recall,

10 and I may be wrong, although there was a significant amount of damage,

11 there was no casualties.

12 Q. So no casualties. No one was injured or killed. Would that be

13 correct?

14 A. As I recall. I can't be specific, but if I remember right, there

15 was an explosion. But as I recall, nobody was injured or killed. But it

16 was one of the general series of incidents that was going on around that

17 time that stoked up what was to occur later on.

18 Q. Thank you very much. For the sake of brevity, I'll move on.

19 There was another incident when both military police forces were

20 holding that joint check-point. One day, I think it was the 7th --

21 between the 7th and the 10th of January, all the members of the HVO

22 military police were arrested at those two check-points. Did you hear of

23 that event?

24 A. I probably did at the time, but I don't recall it.

25 Q. Do you know what happened next with regard to those arrests?

Page 8695

1 A. I'm afraid I don't. But which check-point is it you're referring

2 to?

3 Q. I'm referring to the two I mentioned before, Pavlovica and

4 Karamustafic. The two most important check-points in the Gornji Vakuf

5 area in the direction towards Novi Travnik.

6 A. I recall vaguely that -- that at least one of those check-points

7 was attacked in some way, but I don't remember the ins and outs of it.

8 Q. So the military policemen were arrested by the armed forces of the

9 BH army and taken from the check-point. You don't recall any of the

10 events that ensued in the town of Gornji Vakuf?

11 A. Again, this goes back to what I said earlier. There was a series

12 of events --

13 Q. Do you or don't you remember, please.

14 A. I don't remember what actually happened to those soldiers, no.

15 Q. I'm trying to assist you. Do you remember that soldiers on both

16 sides were arrested and that an exchange was carried out, so it ended

17 quite peacefully? Do you recall that? And your men participated in that.

18 A. There were a series of exchanges that went on virtually on a daily

19 basis, so I cannot be specific about a particular exchange. Indeed, I was

20 involved in one exchange, but that was civilians. But that one I don't

21 recall. There were exchange nearly every day.

22 Q. Well, I wouldn't agree with you there, but I'll ask you another

23 question with Their Honours' indulgence. Did you ever go from the centre

24 of Vakuf town towards the post office and then towards the Ina petrol

25 station and then towards Bugojno? Did you ever pass along that route

Page 8696

1 either in a vehicle or on foot?

2 A. Both.

3 Q. Would you agree with me that there was fierce fighting throughout

4 the conflict along that line?

5 A. Yes. As I recall, if this is the specific area that I recall

6 correctly, there was even a fight where -- involving a stuffed wild boar

7 where both sides kept seizing it off the other.

8 Q. Thank you. Very briefly, I wish to jog your memory, Witness, to

9 help you recall several incidents that contributed to the situation. You

10 mentioned the conflict between two villages, a Muslim and a Croat village.

11 Let me remind you that four persons from a Croatian village were cruelly

12 killed with an axe, if you recall.

13 Yesterday, we spoke about a Muslim who had his head chopped off,

14 but what I wish to remind you of is the following: In the report dating

15 from 1992 and presented by my Defence, I -- 1992, and it refers to the

16 period from April to December, it mentions the most significant incidents

17 that had happened in the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, and do you

18 know that neither more nor less than six are mentioned that relate to

19 Gornji Vakuf? If we compare this to the number of municipalities where

20 the HVO had military police, would you agree, and I hope that when you

21 took up your duties in Gornji Vakuf you were briefed on this, on the 26th

22 there was an armed conflict where people were killed on both sides?

23 Another incident happened on the 4th of August, 1992. That was between

24 those two villages. On the 11th of October, the command of the military

25 police was targeted from a hand-held rocket launcher.

Page 8697

1 All this was in 1992, just before this gentleman arrived to take

2 up his duties. And he arrived in November, as he told us.

3 Then on the 17th of November, 1992, that was when an HVO soldier

4 chopped off the head of a Muslim, and it states clearly here that he was

5 arrested. And all these incidents more or less ended rather well except

6 for the tragedies that occurred.

7 So my next question: When answering Judge Antonetti's question

8 about the reasons why over 20 per cent of the members of the military

9 police were killed in Gornji Vakuf, you were unable to reply. As a

10 professional soldier, could you now enumerate -- I'm just finishing, Your

11 Honour.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your time is up. So ask him the

13 last question so that he can answer it.

14 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. My final question is: As the witness was living in Gornji Vakuf

16 in that time period, could he give us the main reasons as to why so many

17 people were killed there? And I did mention the fighting in the town

18 itself. That was my question, my last question.

19 A. We are going back to when you first built the picture for the

20 question. We were aware that there were frictions between the Muslim and

21 Croatian communities, and we were aware that there had been incidents.

22 However, at the time of our initial deployment, we were not concerned with

23 that. We were just concerned solely with the road and what the warring

24 factions did to each other was, as far as we were concerned, none of our

25 business, so long as we could keep the road open and go where we wanted

Page 8698

1 freely.

2 As to why the casualty rate for the military police was so high,

3 I -- without being told where they were fighting exactly and who they

4 were -- which particular unit they were fighting against, I cannot say.

5 There's many reasons why the casualty rate of particular units may be

6 high. It could be due to poor leadership, lack of fire support.

7 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I have 30

8 seconds more, please?

9 Q. Sir, you did not even know the two main check-points on the road

10 that you're responsible for, Karamustafic and Pavlovica. How then could

11 you know about --

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Coric, you need to stop now.

13 You should have worked this out beforehand with your Defence counsel. You

14 should have taken the floor first and let your Defence counsel speak after

15 you. The questions were not of the same nature, I understand, and

16 understand that you're nervous about it, but we have to restrict you

17 time-wise.

18 You were raising your hand, Witness. What did you want to say in.

19 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I can give Mr. Coric a very quick

20 answer to that. Because we couldn't speak Serbo-Croat and couldn't

21 pronounce the words properly. We gave them code numbers instead.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, do you have any

23 questions for re-examination?

24 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

25 MR. BOS: In the interests of time, I will not have any additional

Page 8699

1 questions, only to admit the exhibits.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: I have a couple of additional questions, Your

4 Honour, based on the questions that were raised. If not, I can just

5 briefly state what those questions are.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No. Mr. Karnavas, there is no

7 question of --

8 MR. KARNAVAS: [Previous translation continues] ... at some point

9 today, I would like to make my record. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What do you want to state for

11 the sake of the record?

12 MR. KARNAVAS: [Previous translation continues] ... questions that

13 I wanted to ask. That's what I wanted to state the record for. Basically

14 that's it.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why didn't you ask those

16 questions during the cross-examination time?

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you for asking that question, Mr. President.

18 Thank you. Because the nature of the questions that I wish to ask arose

19 as a result of questions that were posed by Judge Trechsel. And I think,

20 as I indicated earlier, the common practice has been that counsel on both

21 sides are given opportunities to ask limited questions based on what might

22 have come up through the questioning of the Judges, and that was the

23 reason. It's not something that I forgot or was --

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But when a Judge

25 puts a question to the witness, the Judge puts a question either because

Page 8700

1 the Prosecution is examining the witness or the Defence. When I put a

2 question and the witness answers, you can still put a question to the

3 witness to clarify a particular point. But some other Defence counsel

4 could be interested in a particular question. They can write it on a

5 piece of paper and give it to you and say, "Be careful. He answered this

6 and that and answered the Judge's question such-and-such a way. Ask this

7 type of question to the witness." It's for you to appreciate the

8 situation.

9 If at the end of each question put by the Bench you have to give

10 the floor to six Defence counsel all in turn to know which additional

11 questions they wish to put, well, then we will never see the end of this.

12 So the best solution is to proceed in the following manner: When you put

13 questions to the witness and when the Bench puts question, you can

14 proceed, but if your other colleagues are interested in this particular

15 issue, it's for them to turn to you and say, for instance, "Mr. Praljak,

16 I'm interested in this. This is what we should do." Because you share

17 the time between you. If you have time left, then you do have time to put

18 the question. But if unfortunately your time has run out, ask your

19 colleague who is putting the question to the witness at that particular

20 time to put the question then to the witness through you.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: I do appreciate all the advice I can get.

22 Sometimes it's after I have already completed my cross-examination that

23 the issues come up, and my colleagues have their own burden to carry, and

24 it's quite a burden, and the last thing they want is for me to be -- to be

25 giving them questions to ask on my behalf. And with all due respect,

Page 8701

1 they're not trained seals. I cannot force them to jump whenever I ask

2 them to jump.

3 In any event, there are just two issues. I can raise them after

4 the witness leaves for the sake of time. I just want to make sure that at

5 least the record is reflected that the questions that were posed, they

6 were posed in such a way that perhaps follow-up questions should have been

7 asked in fairness to the Defence. That's my position, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So what were the two questions

9 you wanted to ask?

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. One had to do with

11 discipline. Judge Trechsel asked if the gentleman saw any discipline

12 being administered, and he indicated -- I believe his answer was it was

13 brought up at the meetings. The follow-up question would have been,

14 perhaps, did you, sir, being that you were an intelligence officer, did

15 you do anything to verify whether any discipline was occurring, yes or no,

16 as opposed to whether he saw.

17 Also, in light of his previous testimony that he gave, the

18 question would have been: How possible would it have been to have

19 disciplined these rogue elements under the circumstances? Might it have

20 been rather dangerous for a particular low-level commander to try to

21 discipline?

22 I see you're shaking your head, Judge Trechsel. I do think it's

23 relevant.

24 One last -- one last point was where he had indicated -- the

25 gentleman indicated to a question posed by Judge Trechsel, he said that in

Page 8702

1 late January the HVO became more interested in defusing the situation.

2 That answer, that answer seems to -- to indicate that they were not

3 interested prior to that, and of course under -- the follow-up would have

4 been: What makes you believe that they were less interested than before

5 in light of all of your testimony that you had these rogue elements that

6 were not under command and control, not just control but command and

7 control? Everybody was on their own.

8 So those would have been my questions, and I just have them on the

9 record. At least now we're going to try to -- I just want to make sure

10 that we don't -- we don't believe something untouched.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 MR. KARNAVAS: And I'm trying to be due diligent as well.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you. We listened to

14 what you had to say, and we have discussed it. We will take note of the

15 questions that you could have asked. I personally consider that the first

16 question was something that the witness already answered, because I think

17 I asked him about how they were disciplined, and the witness said that he

18 didn't know whether there was disciplinary action taken. So he couldn't

19 either confirm or refute it. And I think he answered the question there.

20 Now, as far as your second question, your second point is

21 concerned, in asking the witness this type of question, there could have

22 been a great deal of speculation.

23 But we did take note of your questions and recorded them. But I

24 would like to suggest to both parties that if you feel there are

25 fundamental issues, ask your colleagues to put the question in your name.

Page 8703

1 Otherwise, I'm sure you will understand that every time the Judges ask a

2 question we have to ask the six Defence counsel and then the six accused

3 whether they would like to ask additional questions, and that would keep

4 us here for hours and hours.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And I would like to make a brief declaration in

7 view of the fact that Counsel Karnavas referred to questions I had put.

8 I would declare that I -- when I put a question always have a

9 slightly bad feeling because I'm quite aware that it is risky to question

10 from the Bench. You cannot object very well to the Bench, and so I feel

11 uneasy and keep, if possible, to a minimum. And I would invite counsel to

12 put follow-up question, and I think that the practice is that we would be

13 on the moment itself prepared to allow that. It's just that we are, as

14 you know and as yourselves have stressed many times, under an extreme time

15 pressure, and now the time has been -- been extended today quite a bit

16 already.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Judge Trechsel. And I'm just trying to

18 be helpful. And to the extent that I can assist the Trial Chamber, I will

19 continue to do so on every occasion. But I thank you for that invitation,

20 and I will take full advantage of it.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I am very much aware of

22 the time, but for the record, let me just respond to a couple of things

23 that have been said.

24 My learned colleague Mr. Karnavas is indeed correct that in many

25 instances and many cases the parties are permitted to put questions to the

Page 8704

1 witnesses following questions put by the Bench, and I believe that was

2 actually the practice that we followed in the Hadzihasanovic and Kubura

3 case.

4 With respect to the suggestion that Judge Trechsel just put on the

5 record in terms of follow-up questions, the potential problem, with all

6 due respect, that we see is that, for example, quite often during the

7 course of the direct examination, there will be questions put by the

8 Judges. If at that point in time one of the Defence teams or the accused

9 thinks that a follow-on question to the Judge's question might be in

10 order, we would then have the situation where the direct examination would

11 be even further hampered, thank you, by a series of questions from a

12 number of different parties based on a question from the Bench.

13 And perhaps, and I am hesitant to suggest this, Mr. President and

14 Your Honours, but perhaps one solution to this problem would be to go more

15 towards the model that is more common in the Tribunal in which, to my

16 recollection, was the one that was more the approach that we did take in

17 the Hadzihasanovic and Kubura case. That is the party who is calling the

18 witness and conducting the direct examination is more or less permitted to

19 do that with the bear minimum of questions coming from the Bench. Then we

20 have the cross-examination. And at that point, the Judges would ask the

21 majority of their questions if there were remaining questions that they

22 had or issues that needed further clarification.

23 Now, having said that, I am fully aware that it is the Chamber

24 that controls the proceedings and I am fully aware that there may be

25 instances where it's best to clarify an issue before moving on. But at

Page 8705

1 the same time, if we were to go to a party calling the witness with the

2 bare minimum of interruptions, and I use that word again hesitantly,

3 followed by cross-examination, questions from the Bench, and then any

4 follow-up questions from any of the parties concerning questions from the

5 Bench. That might be a way to solve this -- this dilemma as expeditiously

6 as possible, so that we don't have a situation where everyone is simply

7 jumping up to clarify further questions based on questions coming from the

8 Trial Chamber. And I simply say that as a suggestion with the greatest

9 respect to all of Your Honours and, of course, cognisant of the fact that

10 the Trial Chamber has the authority to control the proceedings. So I

11 simply, again, fully aware of the time, I raise that at this point.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're quite right, but the

13 problem that we're facing with respect to the Hadzihasanovic-Kubura

14 dossier is that we are inundated by thousands of pages of documents. We

15 know that for this witness this is the number of exhibits. So when one of

16 the parties examines the witness on the basis of a document, if we wait to

17 the end in a few days' time to go back to the document, then we have to

18 take up the document again, whereas we have the document in front of us

19 now. So it would be better to wait to the end if we don't have the

20 documents. But since we do have the documents, orders, et cetera, then we

21 have to intervene straight away, because afterwards it's too late and we

22 can't ask the question two days later.

23 So that is a real problem, and it's here because we have thousands

24 of pages that everybody is examining, and sometimes we have to go straight

25 to the heart of the matter.

Page 8706

1 But as a general rule, when the Judge asks a question, the

2 question takes into account all the elements, and the answer given to the

3 Judge's question, in theory, should not raise -- give rise to additional

4 questions, to redirect, because everything has already been said. So if

5 we're asking the witness -- if we ask the witness can you tell us whether

6 in such-and-such a village there was a check-point or not, if the Judge

7 asks that type of question, the witness answers, no, there wasn't, for

8 example, and unless the Defence has a document to prove the contrary,

9 there's no need to take up the matter again and ask the question again

10 unless the witness was wrong. Then you can produce a document to show

11 that, that the witness was either lying or was wrong or whatever. But the

12 questions are put in such a way that they do not require additional

13 questions.

14 Having said that, we'd like to thank you, Witness, for having come

15 to testify and make your contribution. I'm afraid we kept you longer than

16 initially expected. You've been here for three days now. We thank you

17 for that. I'm going to ask Madam Usher to escort you out of the

18 courtroom.

19 And I'm going to ask the registrar to lower the blinds because

20 we're going to put in place protective measures.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're also going to take the

23 break straight away. As far as admission of exhibits is concerned, we'll

24 leave that to another time.

25 It's quarter past 5.00 or 20 past 5.00. Let's say 20 past 5.00.

Page 8707

1 So we reconvene in 20 minutes' time.

2 --- Recess taken at 5.19 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 5.40 p.m.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed. We'll

5 go into private session, Mr. Registrar.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8708











11 Pages 8708-8711 redacted. Private session.















Page 8712

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session, Mr.

23 President.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may proceed.


Page 8713

1 Q. At the time when you were asked the questions by the investigator

2 from the Office of the Prosecutor, you answered the questions truthfully?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You did this voluntarily?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. And you remember the statement being read back to you at the end

7 of the interview with the investigator in your own language?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you remember signing that statement?

10 A. I remember.

11 Q. Could you take a look at the statements that are to your left-hand

12 side -- sorry, right-hand side. Can you take --

13 A. Your Honour, I am illiterate. I do not know how to read or write.

14 I think it says so in my statement, that I declared that. I cannot read.

15 I did not go to school.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I will resolve that

17 difficulty. Sir, do you remember that an investigator, when he asked you

18 to sign his document, through an interpreter, read back the statement to

19 you?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. And the text that was

22 read back to you in your own language, did it correspond to the questions

23 that the investigator asked you?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right. There were some small

25 changes. At my request he put that right, and everything was in order

Page 8714

1 then.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That means that the document

3 that you signed corresponds to what you told the investigator.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.


6 Q. Finally, Witness, do you stand by the contents of that document as

7 being true to the best of your knowledge and recollection?

8 A. Everything I said in the statement I stand by. It is 100 per cent

9 correct and true.

10 Q. On page 4 of the English version of the statement and also the

11 B/C/S version of this statement, you talk about you and your nephew being

12 in a column. Do you remember that part of your statement?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Who else was in the column with you?

15 A. I couldn't give you all the names, but I know most of the names of

16 the people who were there, and if need be, I can give you a few of them.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Be careful not to name names,

18 name his relatives' names or things like that, because we're going to have

19 to waste time redacting the transcript if he does.

20 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, yes.

21 Q. Witness, if I can turn to an exhibit numbered 1326. On page 4 of

22 the English version of that particular document is a list of names.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Usher, would you help the

24 witness, please.


Page 8715

1 Q. Noting, Witness, what you have said about your reading ability, it

2 is probably easier if I read the list of names to you, but what I would

3 like you to do is after each name, could you answer yes or no as to

4 whether that person was in the column with you.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. We'll move into

6 private session in case there are any names.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

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25 (redacted)

Page 8716











11 Pages 8716-8748 redacted. Private session.















Page 8749

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12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day

16 of October, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.