1 Wednesday, 28 March 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please call the
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Good morning to everybody. Good morning to the Prosecution, the
11 Defence counsel, and the accused.
12 Today we are to proceed with the testimony of Nelson Draper.
13 Before he comes into the courtroom, I'm going to ask the registrar to
14 gives some IC numbers.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you very much, Your Honour. 5D has
16 submitted a list of documents to be tendered through witness Patrick van
17 der Weijden. The list shall be assigned exhibit number IC 513. Several
18 parties have submitted lists of documents to be tendered through Witness
19 Hakan Birger. The OTP list shall be given Exhibit number IC 514. 3D list
20 shall be given Exhibit number IC 515, 4D list shall be given Exhibit
21 number IC 516.
22 Thank you very much, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Very well. We're not at all in a hurry. We have nearly two days
25 ahead of us. As I reminded you yesterday, the Prosecution will have two
1 hours, as scheduled. We've received from them all the documents they plan
2 to put into evidence through the witness and, as to the Defence counsel,
3 they, too, have two hours for their cross-examination. I don't know which
4 documents they plan to prepare and present. So this is how the hearing is
5 going to unfold.
6 Please, Mr. Usher, bring in the witness.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 WITNESS: NELSON DRAPER
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. First of
10 all, I want to check whether you can hear in your language my words as
11 they're being translated. If so, please say yes, you understand me.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please, sir, state your surname,
14 first name, and date of birth.
15 THE WITNESS: Draper, first name Nelson, date of birth 15 April
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. What is your current
19 THE WITNESS: Current occupation is truck driver, working in the
20 oil patch where I live in Saskatchewan, Canada.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Have you had an
22 opportunity to testify before a court of law as to the events that took
23 place in the former Yugoslavia or is this the first time you're going to
25 THE WITNESS: This is the first time.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please read the solemn
3 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. Please sit
7 Since this is the first time you are going to testify, let me give
8 you some explanations as to the way this hearing is going to take place.
9 First you will have to answer questions put to you by the representatives
10 of the OTP. I suppose you have met them yesterday or the day before
11 yesterday, and they will ask questions of you. They will also submit
12 documents to you. I suppose you have reviewed these documents with them
13 before. Once this is done, the Defence counsel, they are on your left,
14 there are many of them but rest assured there will only be one per accused
15 who will put questions to you, and it may be that the accused themselves
16 ask questions as part of what we call the cross-examination.
17 As to the four Judges who are in front of you, as per rules, they
18 can ask questions at any time, but it's been a while now. We prefer
19 waiting until all parties have completed their examination in order to ask
20 questions to clarify some of your answers or because we think that some
21 important questions that should have been put to you did not get to be
22 put. So it is then important in our eyes for -- in the interests of
23 justice to ask you those questions.
24 Try to provide clear answers, because, as you know, these are
25 trial proceedings that are also kept -- and the record of which is kept in
1 a transcript. So it's important for us to have your answers to the
2 questions, because it's on the basis of your answers that we will make our
3 final decision.
4 If you do not understand a question, do not hesitate to ask the
5 person asking you that question to reformulate it. If at any time you do
6 not feel well, there -- again, ask us to have a break. We have a break
7 anyway every 90 minutes. We break for 20 minutes for you to have a rest,
8 on one hand, and on the other hand so that the tapes can be replaced.
9 So this is what I wanted to tell you so that your testimony can
10 take place in the best possible conditions for you and for all of the
11 people present here in the courtroom.
12 So this being said, I'm now giving the floor to the Prosecution.
13 MR. FLYNN: Thank you, and good morning, Your Honours. Good
14 morning to the Defence counsel and to everybody else in the courtroom.
15 Examination by Mr. Flynn:
16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Draper. Can you hear me?
17 A. Yes, I can sir.
18 Q. I know that these proceedings will seem a little intimidating to
19 you. I assure you that they're not and please feel relaxed, but it's
20 important that you keep your voice up so that everybody hears you. So
21 speak into the microphone if you will, please.
22 Now, you told us that you were a driver, I think working in the
23 private sector. I think previous to that you had worked in the public
24 sector and were a member of the Canadian Armed Forces; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, sir. I joined the Canadian armed forces 30th November 1972,
1 as a military policeman, and I stayed a military policeman throughout my
2 career with the Canadian Armed Forces, and I retired approximately 20th of
3 January, 1995.
4 Q. And could you tell Your Honours what training as a military police
5 you received during the course of your career within the Canadian Armed
7 A. Basically you went through the normal boot camp for the Canadian
8 Armed Forces, and right after that I went to military police school to
9 commence basic military police procedures, training, which dealt with
10 ordinary traffic accidents, simple investigations, this type of procedures
11 that were taught. Once that training has taken place we're posted to a
12 business where you commence normal duties which could include security,
13 ordinary policing duties. And as your career progressed you went back to
14 the training school, which I did on numerous occasions, and you upgraded
15 your police training to involve more intensive police techniques that
16 involved interviews, interrogations, and this continued on. It's a
17 continuing process right throughout your career. And accompanied by this
18 you take a -- like, you upgrade your leadership training at the same time.
19 Q. And by the year 1990, what was your rank within the Canadian Armed
21 A. By this time I had reached a rank of a warrant officer.
22 Q. I think warrant officer is a senior non-commissioned officer; that
23 is correct?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. And with that rank, did your responsibilities increase?
1 A. Yes. For a warrant officer, you're looking after subordinates
2 that you instruct and look after, that there are reporting procedures and
3 then you report to a higher command.
4 Q. And what was the largest number of subordinates that you were in
5 charge of and looked after?
6 A. Approximate -- approximately 30 at one time.
7 Q. Were these other military police officers?
8 A. Yes, these would be other military police officers.
9 Q. Now, in the course of your career, did you serve abroad?
10 A. Yes, I did. I served abroad on temporary duty to Bosnia for six
12 Q. Can you tell us when you went to Bosnia and how long you spent
14 A. I went to Bosnia with the former United Nations Military Police
15 Platoon to look after the Bosnia-Herzegovina area, with the exception of
16 Sarajevo. There were six of us from Canada that came over to start it up.
17 We were supposed to have a contingent of, I think, between 30 and 50
18 military policemen.
19 Q. Could you just stop there. What year was this, can you remember?
20 A. This would be 1993. I think we left -- left Canada and arrived in
21 Zagreb on the 8th of October, 1993, and then on the 10th of October, 1993,
22 we made our way to Kiseljak, Bosnia-Herzegovina, where the BH command was
24 Q. And can you tell us in very brief, general terms what your duties
25 were in Kiseljak?
1 A. The duties in Kiseljak would be providing United Nations police
2 service to the country, which we dealt with anything that involved a
3 peacekeeping unit with -- with the civilian side of the house or --
4 whereas their own units have their own regimental police that deal with
5 events happening in their own units. If it involved any civilian aspect,
6 like a traffic accident, that's where the United Nations military police
7 would come into being to look after investigations of that type. The --
8 Q. Sorry, continue. Can you tell us what was the military police
9 chain of command for your unit for the period you were serving there?
10 A. These military police would report to me, and I would report to
11 Captain Gale, who was the platoon commander, and Captain Gale would report
12 to the command provost marshall, who was at the time Major Dongor.
13 Q. Did your duties include criminal investigations?
14 A. Yes, they would have.
15 Q. Sometime in October 1993, can you receive orders from your
16 superior regarding an investigation of alleged crimes committed in a
17 location called Stupni Do outside the town of Vares?
18 A. Yes, sir. It would have been on the evening of the 26th of
19 October, 1993, where Lieutenant Gale approached me and tasked me with
20 investigating what he termed a massacre that had occurred at the village
21 of Stupni Do in which civilians were killed.
22 Q. Now, you say "massacre." Were you given much of a briefing or
23 overview what was alleged -- as to what was alleged to have occurred?
24 A. It was -- if memory serves, it was -- they were saying it was an
25 HVO-led attack that had occurred on the village and that civilians were
2 Q. Do you know who was the -- who was living in the village at the
3 time? What predominant faction was living there, what predominant ethnic
5 A. BiH. It was my understanding it was a BiH pocket of mainly
6 Muslims that were in a Croat-controlled pocket, or HVO-controlled pocket.
7 Q. Now, who was to be the lead investigator for the purpose of this
9 A. I was assigned the lead investigation.
10 Q. And can you tell us, when did you arrive to Stupni Do and who, if
11 anybody, travelled with you?
12 A. BH command put together a convoy proceed Stupni Do which consisted
13 of BH command authorities, some legal people, press people, and my MP
14 team, and we left Kiseljak and proceeded towards Stupni Do stopping at the
15 town of Dabravine on the way there.
16 Q. What was the purpose of this stop in Dabravine?
17 A. When I -- when we arrived there I was able to speak to a BiH
18 official who had told me that there was numerous survivors of Stupni Do in
19 that town. So I had teed up with them to try to get me some names so that
20 once I come back from looking after or investigating the site that I would
21 be able to interview some of the witnesses. Once that was done, we
22 proceeded on to Stupni Do, arriving just before noon hour on the 27th of
23 October, 1993.
24 Q. Can you describe for us the condition of the village when you
25 arrived on the 27th of October, 1993?
1 A. Yeah. On arrival, as we were coming in sight of the village, you
2 could tell that most of the village had been destroyed, burnt. You could
3 see burn, scorch marks on most of the houses. Most of the roofs were
4 gone, collapsed in on themselves. Exiting the vehicle you could smell
5 burnt -- the smell of burnt -- there was like a -- like a garbage dump was
6 that distinct smell of burnt flesh.
7 Q. Did you notice anything else?
8 A. Dead animals, garbage all -- well, debris all the other the place,
9 expended ammunition casings, grenades.
10 Q. Do you remember -- sorry.
11 A. Go ahead.
12 Q. Do you remember when you arrived if there were any residents
13 living in the village?
14 A. No. There were no residents at the time. The -- the village
15 was -- had been -- at the time was being secured by BritBat company
16 providing security at the village at the time, the commander of which was
17 Major Roy Hunter, I believe it was, who had -- I had spoken to about what
18 was going on in the village at the time and dealing with security, and I
19 had -- I knew the intentions were to let the press -- I think General
20 Ramsay wanted to have the press there.
21 Q. General Ramsay was the senior commander with --
22 A. Yes, he was the senior commander.
23 Q. With UNPROFOR?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. You arrived on the 27th. This was three days after the alleged
1 massacre in Stupni Do. Do you know if anybody else, any other groupings,
2 UNPROFOR or otherwise, had already visited the crime scene?
3 A. Yes. When I converse with Major Hunter, he had said he relieved
4 NordBat, I believe it was that morning, and they had been in there at that
5 time, and they relieved them. So you had two -- two different groups that
6 had already been through this at the time searching the village. And
7 considering -- considering this, I -- I had no reservations per se to
8 allow the press people to film the village because I knew the -- it wasn't
9 really a secure crime scene because of the -- all the troops that had been
10 rummaging around the village. So my main concern was just to have
11 Major Roy's people keep an eye on the press to make sure they didn't
12 tamper with anything, pick stuff up, or otherwise disturb the scene any
13 more than it was already disturbed.
14 Q. And so when you arrived there and you met Major Hunter, what did
15 you and your team, what was the first thing that you and your team did
16 when you arrived there in furtherance of your investigation?
17 A. I had Major Hunter who had already located -- knew where locations
18 where a lot of the bodies were, and so I asked him to show myself and my
19 team to all the body locations so I could have a quick overview of what --
20 where they were, and he did this, and we were followed by the press
21 people. So ...
22 Q. Can you tell us how many bodies you viewed?
23 A. Total was 16. They were at various locations in the -- in the
24 village itself.
25 Q. Can you describe the condition of these bodies? Were they
1 identifiable when you first saw them?
2 A. Not all of them. There was around seven of them that you could
3 identify, and then the rest were just burnt too far to even tell if they
4 were female or male, so ...
5 Q. Now, as lead investigator, did you assign specific tasks to your
6 team members?
7 A. Yes, I did. I had assigned master corporal Scott McKee with the
8 crime scene processing because he had an AV course, which in Canada is a
9 military police course that dealt with crime scene processing on how to
10 handle evidence, that type of thing. So he went through training just
11 specifically for that type of thing. So him having that qualification I
12 told him he would be processing the crime scenes, and I think it was Staff
13 Sergeant Verne I had detailed to be the evidence custodian, to look after
14 any evidence that they may have picked -- we may have picked up at the
15 time while we were there, and had one other individual, I think Sergeant
16 Platteau, P-l-a-t-t-e-a-u, I believe. He was to help in any other way, in
17 case we needed anyone like a -- i.e., will help with witnesses and so on.
18 Q. Sorry.
19 A. No, go ahead.
20 Q. Were all of these soldiers members of the Canadian contingent?
21 A. No. The only Canadian that I had at the time was Master Corporal
22 McKee. I didn't have room to bring anyone else.
23 Q. Okay. Now, you might have answered this already, but can you tell
24 us what your priorities were and what tasks, specific tasks your team
25 undertook, and what your priorities were on this first day?
1 A. The main priorities on this day was to process the crime scene as
2 fast as we could because I knew we were on a limited time-frame because
3 the units that were guarding the village for us had other escort duties,
4 other duties in Bosnia-Herzegovina. This wasn't part of their duties. It
5 was something they were doing other than their duties, and they had to go
6 back to those duties. So that being said, I wanted to get as much done
7 before we got pulled out of there as we could. So I instructed Master
8 Corporal McKee where to start with the -- the crime scenes where we could
9 identify the victims first and then each place where there was a body
10 type -- or bodies would be a crime scene.
11 Q. Did you have your team search the area for physical and material
12 evidence related to the incident?
13 A. Yes. That would be mainly on -- under Master Corporal McKee's
14 responsibilities as he was processing the crime scene.
15 Q. And what would happen to any evidence that they discovered?
16 A. The evidence they discovered would have been handed over, well,
17 bagged and tagged type thing, would have been picked up and tagged and
18 then given to staff sergeant Verne who would keep a log of it and secure
20 Q. On this first day was your team accompanied by a photographer?
21 A. We didn't have a photographer available in our Military Police
22 Platoon at the -- well, we never had any equipment whatsoever. There was
23 no crime processing equipment that we had or anything, so we eventually
24 found a BritBat photographer that happened to be on scene, then used his
1 Q. Do you remember the name of that photographer?
2 A. Pettersen, I believe.
3 Q. And how long did Mr. Pettersen remain with you until?
4 A. I assigned him with Master Corporal McKee, so I don't know if he
5 was there both days or just one.
6 Q. And his function was to take photographs of the crime scene, of
7 the remains and the bodies, I assume?
8 A. Exactly. Anything and everything that related to the
10 Q. Was anybody designated to prepare sketches of the crime scene?
11 A. Yes. Staff sergeant Verne the evidence custodian also at the same
12 time was preparing a hand-drawn sketch of the scene, of the town that --
13 the main part of the town.
14 Q. Now, given the stated -- the limitations of your time and the
15 deadlines, did your team manage to finish on that first day? Did they
16 manage to finish the crime scene inspections on the first day?
17 A. No. We had arrived there around noon, and at close to 4.00 or
18 shortly after 4.00 it was getting dark, so we had to pack it in. We had
19 no additional lighting or anything. So at that time we made our way to
20 NordBat, who had a small base nearby.
21 Q. And did you meet -- did you meet representatives of the NordBat
22 unit, and did you speak to them about the Stupni Do massacre?
23 A. Yeah. I spoke to several of them there. Major Ekhard [sic] who
24 was the deputy commander, I believe, and a couple of the other regimental
25 military police who were there at the time. I spoke to them and got a
1 little bit more information of what had gone on at Stupni Do.
2 Q. And what kind of information did they -- did they give to you as
3 to what had happened at Stupni Do or afterwards?
4 A. They related that the day of the attack and then the next day they
5 knew the attack was going on at Stupni Do, and the HVO would not let them
6 pass to go into the village. On the -- they tried again on the 24th.
7 They still didn't -- still couldn't get in. And on the 25th they finally
8 were able to make it into the village.
9 I also spoke to another officer that had gone to -- on the 24th, I
10 believe, in the -- he went to his observation post at -- nearby at -- near
11 the town of Dastansko. They had observation post there, and he was saying
12 that at 10.00 that day when he went there he could hear some motors and
13 small-arms fire, and later that evening he could also see that the sky
14 above Stupni Do was just red from fires.
15 Q. Do you know whether or not any of these NordBat officers had
16 carried out any interviews with anybody related to what had happened in
17 Stupni Do?
18 A. One of the -- Major -- Ekhard -- Ekberg?
19 Q. Ekberg.
20 A. Ekberg had talked to a couple of women who said they had been
21 raped, that the attacking force had killed indiscriminately civilians
22 without -- actually, but rape, theft.
23 Q. Did they mention anything else other than the killings?
24 A. Well, other than -- you know, that they burnt everything. They
25 would be able to give you more information. I'd probably have to refer to
1 something, some notes or -- because I got too much in my mind. I don't
2 know if I'm skipping ahead of myself or -- or --
3 Q. We'll come back --
4 A. But generally.
5 Q. We'll come back to it in a moment.
6 A. Rape, killings, and ...
7 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, if I could just interrupt. As far as
8 we're concerned in the Stojic Defence, we have -- we would have no
9 objection to the witness referring to notes of his investigation. It
10 would be standard in the case of a police officer and might save some time
11 if -- so Mr. Flynn should please feel free to do that, as far as we're
12 concerned, if that would help.
13 MR. FLYNN: I'm very happy to hear that, Your Honours, and I'm
14 grateful to the members of the Defence team for mentioning that. And I
15 will ask -- I will ask Mr. Draper to refer to his notes in a moment.
16 Q. Just going back to the -- the crime-scene investigations, did your
17 team return on the second day to Stupni Do, on the day after?
18 A. Yes. They had to return to finish off the crime scene processing,
19 which they eventually did after that second day.
20 Q. And were you with the team on this day?
21 A. Not entirely, no. The -- the -- Master Corporal McKee was looking
22 after everything the second day at the village itself.
23 Q. Now, during these two days of examinations, did you -- do you know
24 whether or not the team availed the use of a medical examiner or a medical
25 officer to examine the bodies?
1 A. Yeah. That second day a medical officer accompanied Master
2 Corporal McKee. So -- and they went to each body that was there and did a
3 quick assessment of the body, the results of -- of which later on in a
4 debriefing with him indicated that most had been shot. Some appeared to
5 have what was, I believe, to be stab wounds.
6 Q. And do you know were any weapons found on or near any of the
7 bodies or remains?
8 A. For the most part, no. One body had some live shells, and I
9 believe a grenade or two near the body. And this body had the -- the body
10 had most of the clothes burnt off. It had combat boots, so we had assumed
11 that it was either a HVO or a BiH soldier or a defender. We weren't quite
12 sure at the time.
13 Q. Now, you -- was your team able to finish the crime scene
14 examinations on the second day?
15 A. Yes they were.
16 Q. And do you know how many crime scenes were examined in total by
17 your team on these two days?
18 A. Seven. Seven, you know, in different parts of -- different areas
19 where the main location of the bodies were. They were marked down on the
20 map that Staff Sergeant Verne had completed.
21 Q. Okay. Now, if I can just jump ahead a little for a moment. Did
22 you during the course of your investigations prepare written reports for
23 your superiors?
24 A. Yes. I believe I -- I submitted a total of four of them.
25 Q. And on the 15th of November -- or did you prepare a report dated
1 the 15th of November, a substantive interim report listing the seven crime
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. And that stated other information as well as what was found on the
5 crime scenes?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. With the assistance of the usher I wonder if I may at this stage
8 introduce Exhibit number 06978.
9 You'll find it at the start of the second book, Mr. Draper. And
10 if you could turn the page to the first -- to the fourth page with ERN
11 number 00053356. Is this the report that you prepared?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And if you could go later and go to page 0053385. Do you have it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. There are two signatures on that page. Is that your signature in
16 the middle of the page and that have your superior --
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. -- following?
19 A. First signature is myself. Second signature is my superior.
20 Q. And if you could go farther to page 00553391 you will find a map.
21 A. Yes, which is the map that staff sergeant Verne drew.
22 Q. So when I asked you about whether there were sketch maps prepared,
23 is this the map that was prepared by members of your team?
24 A. That's quite correct.
25 Q. And does this map basically indicate where the bodies were -- the
1 remains and bodies were located?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Now, if you turn to page 00053359 of the same report. It's at the
4 start almost. It's a couple of pages beyond the start.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. From paragraph 2 until paragraph 4, do you set out what you
7 actually found at the crime scenes, the various -- the seven crime scenes
8 that you inspected?
9 A. Yes. These is where it describes each crime scene.
10 Q. And was that report prepared based on your notes solely or on the
11 combination of your notes and those of your team members?
12 A. It was a combination of my notes and the team members.
13 Q. And could you tell the trial panel very briefly -- I don't want
14 you to read the report, but could you tell them -- go through crime scene
15 1 to crime scene 7 the basics of what you found?
16 A. Well, crime scene was a house there. In the -- the lower floor
17 was three dead women in a trap door leading to a lower area, a basement
18 area, like a root cellar or something. And outside the back was one body,
19 and then the other bodies were in the upper level of that house, burnt
20 beyond recognition.
21 Q. And there were three female bodies is that correct, which you
22 lettered A, B, and C on the map?
23 A. Yes, three female bodies.
24 Q. And these were later found -- identified as Nevzeta Likic, Hatidza
25 Likic, and Medina Likic?
1 A. Exactly.
2 Q. Look at the second part of that first crime scene report. Is it
3 correct to say that the badly burnt body that was found was believed to be
4 that of Adis Likic?
5 A. Yes. This is the one I had mentioned -- sorry, say that again?
6 Q. Is the body -- was that body believed to be the body of Adis
8 A. Oh, the one outside the house in scene 1?
9 Q. Yes. If you look at subparagraph 2 of scene 1.
10 A. Right. Right. This is Adis Likic. This is the one that we at
11 first for a good part thought might be female and later once I interviewed
12 his mother found out it was a male.
13 Q. And his body was letter D on the map, the sketch map. It's on the
14 first line.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And the first part of the crime scene 1 there were three badly
17 burned bodies, E, F, and G, of which were marked on the map; is that
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. And --
21 A. The mother and two children.
22 Q. These were later -- were they -- were they established as being
23 Merima Likic, Mebrura Likic, and Vahidin Likic, or was it just a belief?
24 A. This was confirmed later on through witness interviews.
25 Q. Mm-hmm.
1 A. That's how we determined who was -- who was -- was there.
2 Q. Can you move now to scene 2 and just briefly tell me what was
3 found there.
4 A. Yeah. Scene 2 was the gentleman that I had mentioned earlier that
5 had most of his clothing burnt off, with the exception of the combat
6 boots, and there was some ammunition and a grenade or two I found around
7 his body.
8 Q. And he was -- he was later -- that was -- that body was later
9 believed to be the body of Samir Likic; is that correct?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Now, at scene 3 what did you find?
12 A. Scene 3 was found between two dwelling -- like in a walkway, and
13 we later identified him as - pronunciation - Salih Likic.
14 Q. Salih Likic?
15 A. Salih Likic.
16 Q. And scene 4?
17 A. Scene 4 remains -- just have a look here. Yeah. He was in front
18 of a house, and he was severely charred. It was hard -- hard to say. The
19 medical opinion, I remember, was they weren't sure if the body was a
20 person or an animal, but some of the medical -- other medical people
21 thought it was probably a person. So that's how we treated it. There was
22 some doubt, so we just treated it as a human.
23 Q. And did you ever get confirmation that it was a human afterwards?
24 A. I believe -- I can't recall. From the autopsy reports that I got
25 later on I'm sure it was confirmed as a human. I can't quite say 100 per
1 cent sure though.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. But, yeah, we --
4 Q. And this body was letter J on your sketch map?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Now, scene 5. How many bodies did you find on scene 5?
7 A. Scene 5 there was four bodies. This was located on the -- the --
8 near the upper part of the town.
9 Q. Mm-hmm.
10 A. And they were all pretty well burnt beyond recognition.
11 Q. And they were marked as K, L, M, and N on your sketch map?
12 A. Quite correct, yes.
13 Q. And --
14 A. Later we identified them as -- well, as they're listed there.
15 Q. You later -- for the record you later think you identified them as
16 Edin Mahmutovic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Rasida Likic.
19 A. Yep.
20 Q. Rifet Likic.
21 A. Right.
22 Q. And Mehmet Likic?
23 A. Exactly.
24 Q. Now at scene 6, what did you find?
25 A. Scene 6 was the body of a man located near the same area, across
1 the street, I think, lying on his back with a charred piece of lumber
2 across his legs. He was later identified as Abdulah Likic.
3 Q. And moving on then to scene 7?
4 A. And scene 7 was just a little bit outside a hill in just a little
5 bit of a wooded area was an elderly gentleman that later returned -- we
6 found out was the mayor's dad, Zejnil Mahmutovic.
7 Q. Zejnil Mahmutovic?
8 A. Mahmutovic.
9 Q. And this was a total seven crime scenes that your team had
10 examined; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, it was.
12 Q. Apart from having photographs taken did you -- did your team
13 through any other medium record the investigations?
14 A. The second day we -- we were able to get a video camera, and so as
15 the team went through, this was a -- they filmed the different crime scene
17 Q. And when was this taken and by whom?
18 A. This would have been taken the next --
19 Q. You arrived --
20 A. The 28th. The 28th. And it was taken by one of the members of --
21 I believe Sergeant Jim Steward who had come up that day, I think, because
22 he brought the video camera with him.
23 Q. Now, did you have an opportunity during your first few days of
24 your investigations to interview any of the Stupni Do inhabitants or
25 survivors? And I don't want you to mention any names at the moment.
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. And can you tell us when this was?
3 A. On the 29th of November.
4 Q. And without giving their -- their names to us at this point, can
5 you tell us in general terms what they told you had happened in Stupni Do
6 and who had taken part in the attack?
7 A. The attack happened on the 23rd, the morning of the 23rd around
8 8.00 and continued throughout the day, petering out at around 4.30 that
9 afternoon. The -- there were civilians lying out -- outside their houses
10 shot, some women taken in the houses and raped, and they were saying that
11 they were HVO that had -- had done this. And must having their valuables
12 taken from them, their jewellery they were wearing or money that they had.
13 Q. Of course you mentioned when you arrived in the village seeing all
14 the burned houses. Was there any mention of burnings and arson?
15 A. Yeah. They were setting fires to all of their houses and taking
16 the bodies of the people that they had killed and throwing them into the
17 houses as they burnt to burn them up.
18 Q. Now, did the witnesses identify who the attackers were, and did
19 they give any descriptions of how they were dressed, weapons they were
20 carrying or otherwise?
21 A. The -- they mentioned that they were HVO. They were wearing
22 camouflage uniforms. Some were dressed in black, wearing flak jackets and
23 white ribbons. Mostly white ribbons tied to their epaulettes, cammed-up
25 Q. What did you say about faces?
1 A. Cammed. Disguised their faces.
2 Q. Painted, camouflage?
3 A. To blend in with the forest or ...
4 Q. And did any of the witnesses indicate that they had recognised any
5 of those soldiers?
6 A. Not at this time, I don't believe none of them were recognisable.
7 They weren't soldiers that they recognised from -- locally, local
8 soldiers. They all seemed foreign soldiers to them.
9 Q. And these initial witnesses that you interviewed, did they
10 indicate from what faction the soldiers had come, from which army?
11 A. Well, eventually a lot of the witnesses said they were from --
12 that the Kiseljak area, brought in from the Kiseljak area.
13 Q. But which army?
14 A. HVO.
15 Q. HVO.
16 MR. FLYNN: Now, I think at this point, Your Honours, I would have
17 to ask to go into private session because I'm going to ask the witness
18 something about one of the protected witnesses.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar,
20 private session, please.
21 [Private session]
11 Page 16472 redacted. Private session
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
20 MR. FLYNN:
21 Q. Now, Mr. Draper, on the basis of your early discussions with the
22 NordBat UNPROFOR forces and those few local witnesses that you initially
23 interviewed, did you form any opinion as to who the perpetrators were?
24 A. Yeah --
25 Q. What their crimes had been, committed?
1 A. Yeah. Based on my observations in the village myself and the
2 interviews I had conducted up to that time there -- there was no doubt in
3 my mind that -- like -- I don't know if the term "massacre "is
4 appropriate, but killings of innocent people definitely take place, and it
5 appeared that the HVO were the responsible party.
6 Q. Did you learn from where the HVO forces had come from that had
7 committed the attack?
8 A. Yes. Eventually through the interviews I learnt that they had
9 come from the Kiseljak area at different groups, one being the Apostoli,
10 and the other one being the Maturice. I don't know if I have my
11 pronunciation right.
12 Q. Have you heard the name Maturice? Does that ring a bell with you?
13 A. That was the one. That's the one, and the other --
14 Q. Have you heard Apostoli?
15 A. Apostoli, yes, exactly.
16 Q. And did you get any information as to who the commander was at the
17 time this attack took place? And I know it's difficult for you to
18 pronounce names.
19 A. I think Major Ramsay was -- at the time had mentioned Ivija Radic.
20 Q. Ivica?
21 A. Exactly.
22 Q. Does the name Ivica Rajic mean anything to you?
23 A. Yes, that's exactly right.
24 Q. And did you or your team make any efforts to contact the HVO
25 authorities for assistance with your investigation once you learned that
1 it was the HVO, for fact that it was the HVO who had been involved?
2 A. Yes. Once I got back to my unit, one of the first things I had
3 done was make up a memo and sent it up the chain of command to the legal
4 to get ahold of the HVO and let them know I wanted to talk to anyone
5 involved in the attack on Stupni Do because I was doing the investigation
6 and wanted to -- as much information as I could get on it.
7 Q. And were you aware personally at that time whether any assurances
8 had already been given by anyone in the political or military hierarchy of
9 the HVO?
10 A. Not at the time. Not from me.
11 Q. Mm-hmm. So following the initial interviews that you held in the
12 first few days after your investigation, did you carry out many further
13 interviews with survivors and inhabitants of Stupni Do or other UNPROFOR
15 A. Yes. For my -- the rest of my tour there, when time would permit
16 and circumstances would permit, I continued that investigation, trying to
17 interview people involved with this attack until my tour ended.
18 Q. And can you tell us briefly how these interviews generally were
20 A. Usually what happened is once I located the subject, where they
21 were, I would go, interview them at that location either it being, you
22 know, in a school, their home, in a local public office, NordBat itself.
23 I interviewed people there. So wherever the location permitted, that's
24 where we did the interviews.
25 Q. And were these interviews conducted by your members of your team
1 in addition to yourself?
2 A. Yes. All of my team from Canada were senior military policemen,
3 so they had appropriate interview skills, and I used that to my advantage.
4 So whenever we were able to go, I made sure I brought another team so we
5 can do simultaneous interviews, get as many done as we could.
6 Q. Did you obtain written statements from the witnesses?
7 A. Well, I tried. Most witnesses didn't want to provide written
8 statements, but I eventually got hold of video equipment, and I used that
9 quite -- most of them allowed me to videotape their interviews, and it was
10 done in a normal police procedure where at the beginning of the interview
11 we would identify them and make sure the information they gave was
12 voluntary and not something that someone else said, something that they
13 saw regarding the attack.
14 Q. And can you tell us how many such interviews were conducted and
15 over what period?
16 A. From late October right -- I think last one was in March.
17 Around -- around 50 thereabouts, at least.
18 Q. And where were these interviews conducted by and large?
19 A. Mostly wherever the people were located. If they happened to
20 be -- near the beginning a lot of the interviews were done in Dabravine.
21 And then once BA -- BiH took over the Vares area many of them moved back
22 to Vares, and we did interviews there.
23 Q. And do you remember -- did you give a statement to the ICTY
24 between the 20th and 23rd of August, 1995?
25 A. Yes. That's correct. They -- a couple of their members came over
1 to Canada, and I met them in Toronto and provided them with a statement.
2 Q. And in that statement, is it correct to say that you listed many
3 of -- the names of many of those interviewed by your team and the dates of
4 the interviews?
5 A. Yes. Mainly, though, my -- my interviews that I personally had
7 Q. And you stand by at that statement today?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, time won't allow us to go through all of the statements which
10 you mention in your statement and those people you interviewed, but I just
11 want to ask you about some of those interviewed.
12 Do you remember, did you interview a person by the name of Suada
14 A. Yes. Yes.
15 Q. And --
16 A. She was one of the ones I interviewed.
17 Q. And was -- was Suada Likic in the village of Stupni Do when the
18 attack occurred?
19 A. Yes. Yes, she was.
20 Q. And do you remember what she told you?
21 A. Yes. Do you mind if I briefly look at the notes just to make sure
22 I don't get her confused with someone else.
23 Q. Certainly.
24 A. I'm sure I know which one it is.
25 Q. I'm unable to give you a reference for this one. I thought you
1 might have had the information.
2 A. Yeah, I have it in my personal notebook. If I can refer to that.
3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Murphy, do you also agree to the use of the
4 personal notebook?
5 MR. MURPHY: Yes, Your Honour. We have no -- yes, Your Honour.
6 We have no -- I think it's quite standard in the case of a police officer
7 that he should be allowed to refer to notes, and I think Mr. Flynn would
8 also agree that if it should become necessary for the purposes of
9 cross-examination the Defence would be entitled to inspect any portions of
10 the notes he may refer to. I don't say that will be necessary but it
11 would follow from the normal practice.
12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 MR. FLYNN: Sorry.
15 Q. I think for the sake of clarification, when you say -- or when you
16 refer to your notebook, are these notes which you took during the course
17 of the interviews?
18 A. Or shortly thereafter.
19 Q. So --
20 A. It would be right in the time frame, within that same day or
21 within a few days after that.
22 Q. And did you use those notes for the purposes of compiling the
23 various reports, the substantive reports that you subsequently delivered
24 to your superiors?
25 A. Exactly. If you wish it, if it's more convenient, we can just use
1 the report paragraph where I had interviewed the person.
2 Q. Well, whichever --
3 A. It's going to be the same.
4 Q. Whichever is easier for you. If you could tell us which -- what
5 Suada Likic told you happened.
6 A. Okay. So I interviewed her on -- yeah. I went to Vares on the
7 26th of Jan 1994, and I went to a building where there was an apartment
8 complex, and there I was introduced to -- how do you pronounce her first
10 Q. Suada.
11 A. Suada Likic, born in 1974 in Vares. So I did the normal interview
12 with her, and she confirmed general events of that day.
13 Q. Did she mention the course -- during the course of her interview,
14 having escaped, meeting a group of people in the forest?
15 A. Yes, once the attack had finished and they finally escaped to the
16 forest, she mentions at one point she had -- yeah. They had found --
17 there were 80 or 90 other villagers that they met, and --
18 Q. Did she mention -- did she mention meet lady who had been shot?
19 A. Yes. Mufija Likic. I'm just seeing if I can see it here, but I
20 remember her saying she had meet -- met --
21 Q. Mufida Likic, is that what you said?
22 A. Yes. Mufida Likic. Oh, here we go. The group had many wounded,
23 for -- one which was a girl who had -- who was shot in the leg, Mufida
25 Q. Now did you also interview a lady by the name of Ferida Likic?
1 A. Yes, just after I interviewed Ferida Likic, and that was on the --
2 Q. I think at this stage we may need to go back into private session,
3 Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Let's go back into private
6 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open, Your Honours.
12 MR. FLYNN:
13 Q. Now, during the course of the various interviews that you
14 conducted over the period that you stated, did you notice any major
15 discrepancies or inconsistencies between the statements of the various
17 A. Here and there I noticed little discrepancies, but with all the
18 interviews I did, it provided a general overall view that was consistent
19 with everybody.
20 Q. Did you get any information during this period of time whether or
21 not the defendant -- the village had been defended on this day?
22 A. Yes, I did. There -- there was approximately 36 BiH -- I guess
23 they were BiH defenders that manned like trenches in different areas
24 around the village.
25 Q. Well, when you say BiH, were they described by the witnesses as
1 BiH or --
2 A. No. Like they're village members. A lot of them would be -- I
3 don't think they were -- I can't say for sure they were, you know, regular
4 soldiers, you know, marksman-type like myself. The ...
5 Q. So they were villagers.
6 A. Yes. Like most of them lived in that town.
7 Q. And at the end of March 1994, did you prepare another substantive
8 report which turned out to be your last --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- based on your investigations up to that date?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Now, before doing so, had you received any positive response from
13 the HVO authorities to your earlier requests for assistance with your
14 investigation that you mentioned?
15 A. No. The memo I had originally sent to legal to try and go through
16 proper channels to get to interview anyone involved in the attack didn't
17 meet with any positive results for me, so I think it was in March that I
18 tried getting an interpreter in Kiseljak to go direct to the HVO liaison
19 officer to get me set up to interview Radic or --
20 Q. Mr. Rajic.
21 A. Rajic, or a member -- you know, the commander of the - what do you
22 call them? - Maturice, or anybody who was involved in the attack, but
23 that --
24 Q. What response did you get to that?
25 A. That was no -- didn't get a positive result on that either.
1 Q. Were you told anything about Mr. Rajic at that particular time?
2 Was he still in Kiseljak?
3 A. I just -- I believe he -- they were just saying he wasn't
4 available. And then for the commander of the other group, he had been
5 wounded, was over in Split.
6 Q. Which other commander are you talking about?
7 A. It was the commander of either the -- one of the groups I had
8 mentioned earlier, the Apostoli or --
9 Q. Was this a commander below Mr. Rajic?
10 A. Yes, I believe -- yes, mm-hmm, because Rajic was the overall
12 Q. And the upshot of all of this, did you actually get any
13 cooperation, and were you able to interview anybody at all from any of the
14 HVO units that had taken place -- that had taken part in the events in
15 Stupni Do?
16 A. None whatsoever.
17 Q. Now, did you prepare -- did you prepare a written report dated the
18 26th of March, 1994, updating your earlier reports?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I think this was the last report that we mentioned?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. And on the basis of your interviews and observations and notes and
23 investigations had to that date, can you tell me how many deaths were
24 attributed to the attack in Stupni Do?
25 A. Total from all the interviews it turned out to be -- it turned out
1 to be 38.
2 Q. And were their 38 bodies recovered from the crime scene by
3 UNPROFOR or your investigative team?
4 A. No. Only the 16 were recovered there. The rest were buried
5 amongst the debris.
6 Q. And do you know whether or not there were any medical examinations
7 or autopsies performed on those bodies recovered from either by UNPROFOR
8 or BiH authorities outside the examinations carried out by the officer on
9 the 28th of October.
10 A. Yes apparently the bodies went to the Visoko mortuary where
11 autopsies were performed on the 16.
12 Q. And who was it who performed those autopsies?
13 A. I believe it was the coroner at that mortuary. At one point we
14 were able to obtain copies of them, which I believe I attached to one of
15 my reports.
16 Q. Mm-hmm. And did you also manage to obtain video footage of the
18 A. Right. I found out that they had conducted video footage, and I
19 was able to obtain a copy of that.
20 Q. Now, at this stage I'd like you to turn in the second booklet to
21 Exhibit 8121, 08121. It's halfway into the booklet.
22 A. Page number again?
23 Q. If you look at the tab firstly, 08121.
24 A. What tab was this -- the four-digit tab?
25 Q. The four-digit tab on the edge?
1 A. What was it again you said?
2 Q. 8121 or 08121.
3 A. Mine are all six digits.
4 Q. The second booklet, perhaps.
5 A. 8121. And page?
6 Q. Now, just look at the first page firstly. This is a letter dated
7 the 28th of March. Please find here military police report for your
8 information. And if you look at the following pages, is this a report
9 prepared by you dated the 28th of March?
10 A. Dated 26th of March?
11 Q. Date the 26th of March. My apologies.
12 A. Yes, this is my report.
13 Q. And if you turn to page 43 on that report, which is ERN number
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is that your signature and again the signature of your superior,
17 Lieutenant Gale?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Now, you see at the bottom of the page you annex a number of
20 documents. The first document is Annex A. And if you turn over the page
21 to page ER R0048852, you have a list of deceased.
22 A. Correct. That's a list of deceased from Stupni Do.
23 Q. And the total of this list is 38?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Can you tell us how this list was compiled?
1 A. This was a list on the first day that we went to Stupni Do when I
2 stopped off at Dabravine, and I spoke to that official and I had asked him
3 to try and get me a list of villagers from Stupni Do. He provided shortly
4 thereafter a lot of surviving members and a list of deceased members.
5 That were -- where this list came from.
6 Q. And this list contains the father's name of the deceased and the
7 date of birth; is that correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Did you later learn that the date of births for some of the
10 deceased mightn't correspond to their actual date of birth?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. Now, could you turn to page 8 -- R -- R0048862. Which on e-court
13 is 8815, 48 and 49.
14 A. 48862?
15 Q. It's 8862; if you look for 8862.
16 A. 8862, annex G to my report, interview dates.
17 Q. This is annex G?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. At the top. And interviews dates. Is this a list of those people
20 who were interviewed by you during the period October to March?
21 A. Yes, it is. Mainly of -- most of them are the villagers. There's
22 a couple other ones like -- but mainly villagers.
23 Q. Now, could you go back to Annex F, please, which is on page 8861.
24 This is another map.
25 A. Right.
1 Q. Now, according to the annex, this should have contained
2 photographs of the crime scenes, but in fact it contains a map. Are you
3 able to explain that? Annex F, 8861.
4 A. Annex F.
5 Q. Do you have the page?
6 A. Yeah, I have it. Photographs depicting different massacre scenes.
7 No. That should be -- that's a topographical map of Stupni Do, not
8 photographs, definitely.
9 Q. And there are seven -- the number 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 are
10 marked on the map. Do these represent the crime scenes?
11 A. Yes, they do.
12 Q. Now, lastly, could you turn Annex I, which is on page 8876.
13 A. 48867 you said?
14 Q. No, 48876. Keep going. I think you have it.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. Annex I?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. This is a, copy topographical map also, and on this map is marked
19 deceased and various numbers. Can you tell us what this map is?
20 A. This is the a copy of the same topographical map, and what I had
21 done is mark the deceased's body locations according to the list of
22 deceased that we had -- you had previously mentioned, 1 to 38.
23 Q. So is it correct to say that this map should be read in
24 conjunction with Annex A, which lists the numbers of the deceased?
25 A. Numbers of the deceased. Right. That's correct.
1 Q. Now, did you also around the same time prepare a briefing video to
2 include in the results of your investigations including clips from autopsy
3 examinations by BiH authorities and a small clip showing the damage to
4 Stupni Do?
5 A. Right, I did. I went to Zagreb to do that video.
6 MR. FLYNN: At this stage, Your Honours, I would be asking to show
7 the video, but I am aware that we have reached the break and perhaps
8 Your Honours may deem it appropriate to take a break.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. We're going to take a
10 break and then we'll have a look at the video.
11 It's 10.30. We're going to have a 20-minute break.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before watching the video, let
15 me raise a technical issue. The interpreters have asked that they not be
16 obliged to translate the video because on the screen there will be
17 subtitles. I don't know what there is to see on that video. If someone
18 speaks in English, for example, it's perfectly natural that what is being
19 said in English should be translated into B/C/S. We want the public to be
20 able to understand what is going on. If something is written in English
21 and it's not interpreted, the people outside of this courtroom won't
22 understand what's going on.
23 Mr. Flynn, what is the problem? We have here the -- in our
24 documents the transcript of what is said, but the public sitting outside
25 of this courtroom does not have this document. So if they see a video, if
1 they watch a video without being aware of the translation, that might
2 cause a problem.
3 MR. FLYNN: I'm aware of that, Your Honour. Firstly, let me tell
4 you that what Your Honours will see are an extract from video Exhibit
5 06 -- 06318, which contains some sound and which will have the transcript
6 appended to it during the course of the video. You will also see a
7 video -- extract from a video 06321 which will have some sound, but the
8 sound -- the sound -- it will just be sounds of machines. The actual
9 speaking is blocked out.
10 So when you're watching the first video, as you're watching it the
11 transcript certainly will appear on English underneath. I'm not aware
12 that it would appear also in B/C/S.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but my question is the
14 following: What about the person listening to us or the person watching
15 these proceedings who can only speak B/C/S? Would that person be able to
16 understand what is being said in this video? That's the problem. Because
17 if I look at 6318, if I have the transcript in English and if I also have
18 the translation in B/C/S, as we all do here, that's fine, but outside of
19 this courtroom those watching us do not have these documents.
20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] Wouldn't it be possible for the
21 interpreters to translate the subtitles?
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll ask the interpreters to do
23 their best and then we'll see how it works.
24 Mr. Mundis.
25 MR. MUNDIS: Sorry. Sorry to jump up and interrupt.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Mundis, microphone, please.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Sorry to interrupt my colleague but my understanding
3 is the booths have been provided with a B/C/S transcript of this
4 videotape, so perhaps I've missed something along the way, but normally
5 when there are transcripts, including in B/C/S, those are provided to the
6 language booths. So I'm a bit at a loss as to why they simply couldn't
7 read the transcript that's been provided to them.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note there has never been any
9 problem with -- with the interpreters doing the interpreting of the video.
10 We were just wondering if we need to read the English despite the
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. We'll ask the
13 interpreters to translate the subtitles.
14 Okay. You can start the video.
15 MR. FLYNN: I should say to you before I do -- before we do,
16 Your Honours, that what you have in writing in front of you is a
17 transcript of this complete exhibit, but I prepared a -- an excerpt from
18 the exhibit because it would have taken us an hour to see the whole
19 exhibit, and so you have a transcript and not all of this transcript will
20 be read throughout the -- will appear in the video. So it will not be
21 sufficient for the translators to read directly from the transcript, but
22 the relevant portion of the transcript will appear with the video in
23 English and I think they will be able to read from that.
24 [Videotape played]
25 MR. FLYNN: Your Honours, that concludes the first extract of the
1 video. I have a very short video extract from video exhibit 06321, which
2 is by the BBC and which I wanted you to see because it shows a clearer
3 picture of scene 1, the scene in the basement, than the previous one did
4 because it was a little bit dark.
5 If you can run it.
6 [Videotape played]
7 MR. FLYNN: And that's merely the scene that I wanted you to see
8 because you couldn't see it in the earlier video.
9 We also have a compilation of the video taken during the autopsies
10 performed by the BiH authorities. I don't propose we go through every
11 single one of them, but what I'll ask Ms. Winner to do is to click on each
12 one and we'll examine for a few seconds and move on. It shouldn't take
13 any more than one minute.
14 [Videotape played]
15 MR. FLYNN: And that concludes the video exhibits.
16 Q. Mr. Draper, were you watching those?
17 A. Yes, I was.
18 Q. And did you recognise the scenes depicted in the videos?
19 A. Yes, I did. They were the scenes at Stupni Do.
20 Q. And did you visit them during the course of your investigation?
21 A. The scenes, yes, I did.
22 Q. And the soldiers seen in the video are part -- are they part of
23 your team, your investigation team?
24 A. Yes. They are a part of my MP platoon.
25 Q. Do the videos accurately reflect what was found at the start of
1 your investigation?
2 A. Yes, they do.
3 Q. You saw the second scene on the first video which your team took.
4 It took -- it was a photograph of what they described as what was believed
5 to be a BiH soldier.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was this person indeed a BiH soldier or was he found to be a
9 A. He was a village defender.
10 Q. Now, during the course of your testimony this morning earlier, you
11 mentioned that you had obtained the services of a photographer, Mr.
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Did he ultimately deliver the photos to you on your team?
15 A. Negatives, the negatives of the photos that he took.
16 Q. If you could just keep your voice up. And do you remember if
17 there were many photos?
18 A. Yes, there is quite a number of them. The total number I can't
19 recall, but there was quite a few.
20 Q. And did all the photos relate to Stupni Do?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were the negatives delivered to you personally or to one of your
23 team members?
24 A. One of my team members.
25 Q. Do you know if at the same time Mr. Pettersen delivered a
1 photographic log, a map of what was contained in the photographs?
2 A. Yeah. I believe one -- what it came in, I probably didn't see it
3 because it would have been entered right into the evidence at the time,
4 but -- I can't physically say that I saw it.
5 Q. I'd like you just to have a look at Exhibit number 06099 for me.
6 That's in the first book, the one with the -- the one with the table on
7 the front of it. Yes.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. Do you have it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And if you turn to the first page you'll see "Photo Log," and it's
12 reference number BSP 1, photographer B. Pettersen, and on the left-hand
13 column he has negative numbers 1 to 10.
14 A. Sorry, can you give me the page number again.
15 Q. It is 6099. Do you have it now?
16 A. Right. I have it.
17 Q. And as I was saying to you, the first page shows a chart. He has
18 list of negatives 1 to 10 on the left-hand side column, and he has titles
19 to go with each of the negatives on the right-hand column?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. You've never seen this, have you?
22 A. I don't think so. If -- I don't recall seeing it.
23 Q. But is it possible that this was given to a member of your team?
24 A. Yes, yeah. This guy was a professional photographer, so this
25 would be part of his normal procedure.
1 Q. Could you keep your voice up for me. And was he the only
2 photographer that you employed for the purposes of taking the photographs
3 of the crime scene during these two days?
4 A. As -- as I recall, quite possibly. We did have a couple of black
5 and white pictures that we developed locally, but they weren't submitted
6 as part of the report.
7 Q. But Mr. Pettersen was engaged for the purposes of?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Taking photographs of the crime scenes and the remains; is that
11 A. Exactly.
12 Q. Now, I'd like you to have a look at a number of photographs if you
13 will. I'll just get the page number. If you would look at 06116 in the
14 same booklet. And starting with the first photograph, ERN number
15 00357616, which is 130 on e-court, could you tell me if you recognise what
16 is depicted in that photograph?
17 A. Okay. This one's --
18 Q. You have it. First photograph.
19 A. Okay. It was partly taken off there. 616 was the last three?
20 Q. The exhibit, Mr. Draper, is 6116, and the first photograph has
22 A. Yeah, okay. Yeah. I have it.
23 Q. Do you recognise what's in that photograph?
24 A. This looks like a scene --
25 Q. You'll have to keep your voice up. I'm finding it hard to hear
2 A. This is scene 1. The three ladies that are in the trap door, you
3 can't see them very good in this one.
4 Q. Can you turn to the next photograph which is 00357599.
5 A. It's --
6 Q. And please keep your voice up, Mr. Draper. The e-court number is
7 113. Do you recognise what's in that photograph?
8 A. Okay. This is photo, a close-up picture of the three women that
9 were in the trap door at the -- scene 1.
10 Q. When you say trap door, what do you mean by the trap door?
11 A. The trap door that you had seen flipped up there beside the one
12 woman, leading into the -- or root cellar or whatever it is.
13 Q. You mentioned finding -- you mentioned your team finding three
14 bodies in a basement. Are these the three bodies?
15 A. These are the three bodies.
16 Q. Would you look at the following photograph, 00357539, e-court 107.
17 Is this another shot of that?
18 A. That's correct, another shot. Another close-up shot.
19 Q. The following photograph, 00357624, e-court 139 -- 138?
20 A. Close-up of the lady on the right.
21 Q. Is this a close-up of the lady on the right-hand side?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. Next photograph is 00357618.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for the interpreters.
25 MR. FLYNN:
1 Q. E-court 132. Do you recognise what that is depicted in that
3 A. Stove.
4 Q. Do you know where this was?
5 A. Quite frankly, I can't recall. It rings a bell but I can't
6 exactly place it, I'm sorry.
7 Q. Okay. We'll move on. The next photograph is 000357489. And
8 e-court number is 3. Can you tell us what is depicted in that photograph?
9 A. That -- you can just make out the charred remains of the body.
10 Q. Are you in a position to say which body it is?
11 A. I don't want to say for sure, but it's one of the bodies at Stupni
12 Do. I just can't pinpoint this.
13 Q. Would you look at the next photograph, 00357495, e-court 9.
14 A. The same thing. You can --
15 Q. Again is this another charred --
16 A. Another charred body.
17 Q. -- photograph, charred body. Looking at photograph 00357966.
18 A. Be a --
19 Q. Which is 7966 on e-court?
20 A. It would be a photo of the mayor's dad, the one, the gentleman
21 found near -- yeah, kind of in the woods a bit.
22 Q. The following photograph 0358238, which is --
23 A. Of the same gentleman.
24 Q. -- 238 on e-court.
25 A. Yeah, that would be the same gentleman.
1 Q. And the next photograph, 00357965?
2 A. Close-up of his face, yeah. Same guy.
3 Q. And that was 7965 on e-court. We then come to photograph
5 A. Right. A view of the village in that location there at Stupni Do.
6 Q. This depicts the destruction?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that was e-court number 278. That brings us on to photograph
9 7726, e-court 240. Is this another picture of the destruction?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. Photograph 00357525, 39 on e-court. Is this another picture of
12 the destruction?
13 A. 7525. Okay. Yes.
14 Q. Then moving on to photograph 00357527, which is 41 on e-court.
15 What have you depicted here?
16 A. This is the scene 2 area there of the gentleman that at first we
17 didn't know --
18 Q. I'm sorry, I'm still finding it hard to hear. Could you please
19 keep your voice up?
20 A. This gentleman has had his clothes burnt off except for his combat
21 boots, as you can see the ... We assumed that he was a BiH defender. At
22 first we weren't too sure.
23 Q. We move on to 00357522, e-court 36. Do you recognise that
25 A. Right. This is a -- the same gentleman.
1 Q. Then turning to the next photograph, 00357519.
2 A. Same gentleman.
3 Q. And I'll just find the e-court number for that. The e-court
4 number is 33.
5 Photograph 00358155, e-court 8155. What have we depicted in this
7 A. One of the charred corpses.
8 Q. The next photograph is photograph 00358153, e-court 8153. Again,
9 is that one of the charred corpses?
10 A. Yes. Yes, it is.
11 Q. And the next photograph, number 00358092.
12 A. One of the charred corpse.
13 Q. One of the charred corpses.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And the e-court number on that is 8092. This brings us to
16 00357508. E-court 22. Again we have pictures of the charred corpses; is
17 that correct?
18 A. Yes. 7508, you said?
19 Q. 7508, yes.
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. The next photograph is 00357498, e-court 12. Again we have
22 charged corpses?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. On this occasion a charred corpse?
25 A. Yes, one.
1 Q. 00357513?
2 A. Charred corpse.
3 Q. E-court 27. Similar charred corpse.
4 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.
6 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to save a minute or
7 two, my learned friend for following the formal procedure needs to go
8 through all these photographs in order to tender them, but I'm sure that
9 all the photographs that are on the proofing chart, and I'm confident I
10 can speak on behalf of all the Defence teams, even if they're not shown to
11 the witness but are contained in the binder are quite acceptable.
12 MR. FLYNN: I do propose tendering all of these photographs at the
13 conclusion of this interview -- at the conclusion of this examination,
14 Your Honour. Do you wish me to --
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but is it necessary to see
16 them all?
17 MR. FLYNN: It was for the record, but given the fact that I will
18 be submitting a final table of exhibits with these photographs, I think --
19 and the fact that my colleagues on the Defence don't appear to have any
20 objections and, for the sake of time, I don't think it's necessary to go
21 through the rest of them.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, but there is a
23 question for you.
24 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, I'd like to ask a
25 question of the witness to have things clarified regarding photograph
2 We saw a person, I believe a lady, wearing a military uniform. Is
3 the fact that she wears a military uniform, does it have anything to say
4 as to whether she was a combatant or not?
5 THE WITNESS: Can I see the photo? I think this is one of the
6 woman in the trapdoor, is it, on the right-hand side?
7 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Exactly. Quite.
8 THE WITNESS: Right. On occasion you see people wearing the tops
9 of camouflage uniforms. I think if -- I believe that maybe if you saw a
10 photo of her in the autopsy she may not have been wearing only the top,
11 but from later witness interviews she -- she was -- she wasn't a member of
12 an attacking -- or the defenders. She was with these ladies, huddled.
13 This was a shelter area.
14 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
15 MR. FLYNN:
16 Q. Would you happen to know what age this lady was? Would that be a
17 fair question to ask you? Do you remember? If you don't, just say so.
18 A. I'm not too sure. Around 26. I think the lady in the middle was
19 the older lady and the other two were about the same age, younger.
20 Q. See -- these photographs which I've just shown you, did you see
21 these photographs before?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, during the course of your evidence this morning you've given
24 evidence regarding Stupni Do, what you learned about the attack and the
25 fact it was the HVO from Kiseljak commanded by Ivica Rajic, and you
1 described having been told by various witnesses of pretty horrendous
2 crimes committed against the inhabitants and villagers of the -- of the
3 village, and you also told us that you prepared a number of reports. Do
4 you know where your reports were sent ultimately?
5 A. When they left my office they went to the command provost marshall
6 at BH command Kiseljak, and from there they went to the force provost
7 provo marshall who was based in Zagreb, and they would distribute them as
8 they saw fit.
9 Q. Would they have eventually reached the United Nations?
10 A. That was my understanding.
11 Q. Are you aware on the 11th of February, 1994, the Secretary-General
12 issued a special report dealing solely with the massacre in Stupni Do?
13 A. No.
14 Q. I'd like you to take a look at Exhibit 78 -- 07838 in your
15 booklet, please.
16 A. Under -- under what tab?
17 Q. 7838.
18 A. Definitely never seen this before.
19 Q. Well, could I ask you to turn to the second page and paragraph 6.
20 Paragraph 6 states basically that -- that between the hours of 8.00 a.m.
21 And 8.10 in the morning on the 23rd of October, 1993, while the village
22 defence force was changing shifts effectively that the village came under
23 attack, that the BiH armija force in Stupni Do congregated and that H
24 [sic] forces began to attack the BiH forces in this area, eventually
25 moving away at 1630 hours.
1 At paragraph 7 the report quotes from UNPROFOR Nordic battalion
2 sources about what happened afterwards, how they were prevented from going
3 into Stupni Do.
4 At paragraph 8, again reference is made to the UNPROFOR forces
5 entering Stupni Do, finding the village having been burnt, 52 houses in
6 the village showed signs of being burnt or burning. Fourteen bodies were
7 discovered. Some were identified, some were not identified.
8 On paragraph 9 it makes reference to the investigation of the
9 events surrounding Stupni Do.
10 At paragraph 10 it describes what many of the witnesses related to
11 the investigators.
12 At paragraph 11 it refers to the fact that some survivors from the
13 attacks stated they had been raped.
14 Number -- paragraph 12 deals with the manner in which they were
16 Is what I've just said to you being a synopsis of the report, is
17 this the way your investigation took place and is this the information you
18 learned during your course of your investigation?
19 A. Yes, it is, although I don't -- I do notice a few things. Like in
20 paragraph 9, military police interviewed most of the 193 survivors of the
21 attack, which is not correct.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. But basically, yes, generally.
24 Q. Now, I know you haven't seen the report but the report effectively
25 summarises your work, what happened in Stupni Do, your work, the work
1 undertaken by your team members, and what left -- and what was left to be
2 done; is that correct?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Now, you remember that you prepared a list of the --
5 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, that's -- that's really just not
6 correct. The witness has already drawn attention to one complete
7 inaccuracy in the report and for Mr. Flynn to draw that sweeping
8 conclusion that this document that this witness has never seen before
9 effectively summarises his work is just not correct and in my submission
10 it's no basis for the document to be admitted. It should be presented
11 through a witness who knows about it.
12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may we just support that and add that
13 when Mr. Flynn said, "Is this the information you learned during the
14 course of your investigation?", there is a danger that that sweepingly
15 includes all the contents of the paragraphs which Mr. Flynn read out
16 understandably quite hurriedly which, again, Mr. Murphy has emphasised the
17 witness has never seen before. We need to be terribly careful about the
18 limits of what this witness can actually say.
19 MR. FLYNN:
20 Q. Well, Mr. Draper -- in answer do that, Mr. Draper, in paragraph 10
21 of the report on the third page, it says: "In describing the incident,
22 many witnesses stated that the HVO attackers were wearing black uniforms
23 with white bands on the left shoulder."
24 A. Right.
25 Q. "And green camouflage uniforms."
1 A. Right.
2 Q. "Some had camouflage faces and HVO patches.
3 A. Right.
4 Q. "While others had no identifying marks."
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. "While wearing black uniforms they also wore black baseball caps."
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. "And were suspected to be members of the HVO death squad or
9 special forces from Kiseljak."
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. "One survivor believed that HVO from Vares and the Bobovac Brigade
12 from Kiseljak took revenge on Stupni Do as a reprisal for BiH army
13 offences --"
14 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, this -- this -- I'm sorry to interrupt.
15 This is completely improper. This witness has no personal knowledge
16 whatsoever. I mean, his whole testimony has consisted of what he was told
17 by other people.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 MR. MURPHY: He wasn't able to see any of these events himself or
20 conduct any investigation except to talk to others, and for him to be
21 asked to verify these opinions and speculate on this report is completely
22 incorrect. The Prosecution should call the proper witness if they wish to
23 have this document admitted.
24 MR. FLYNN: But --
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Flynn, there are two
1 reports, report 8021 dated 26th of March, 1994. That's the witness's
2 report. He signed it. We can see his name in the report. And then there
3 is a second report, 7838, sent to the Security Council on the 10th of
4 February, 1994. The latter contains 13 paragraphs.
5 To avoid any problem, if you want to emphasise the report sent to
6 the Security Council, you have to ask the witness whether, based on his
7 own report, which parts he drew from his own report, and you compare those
8 portions to the report spent to the Security Council to see whether it's
9 matching or whether there are inconsistencies. Otherwise, as pointed out
10 by Mr. Stewart and Mr. Murphy, if you deal with the Security Council
11 report and he, the witness, did not draft it, it was drafted by somebody
12 else, it could be that there would be differences between the witnesses
13 report and that other report.
14 I mean it is, I think, a technical question of how to put the
15 questions. You can solve the problem without causing objections. And I
16 remind you that you can file your objections in writing.
17 So, Mr. Flynn, if you ask those questions, you plan to insist on
18 some salient points. Based on the witness's report, put the questions,
19 and then you can say, "Well, you stated this, and in the Security Council
20 report this is being said. So does this confirm your own conclusions,
21 Witness, or is it different from your conclusions?"
22 MR. FLYNN: That is what I was attempting to do. The witness
23 hasn't seen the report before, and certainly we don't have time to go
24 through the entire report, so I was trying to be selective, and I started
25 with paragraph 10, and I was reading the contents of that report with the
1 intention to say, "Was that your recollection? Was that the information
2 gathered by you?" But he actually said as I was reading it, "I remember
3 this. That is correct." And it was then that my colleague in the Defence
5 That was my intention, Your Honour, to take selective portions of
6 the report and ask him to -- to inquire from him whether it corresponded
7 with the testimony, information which he had been given.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed. Anyway, the
9 Judges will have both reports, and we can draw some conclusions from that.
10 MR. FLYNN: Exactly. And time won't allow me to question the
11 witness about everything.
12 Q. I'll just ask you very briefly. At paragraph 11 of the report it
13 is -- is it suggested that several female survivors from Stupni Do stated
14 they had been raped by HVO soldiers during the attack. Others reported
15 being robbed of their valuables, and in one case a 54-year-old grandfather
16 had been killed by automatic machine-gun fire. Did you receive any
17 information corresponding from that during the course of your
19 A. Yes. As you're going over this, in my mind from the interviews I
20 did I could relate to what was said in the interviews that were conducted
21 and the information I had received and, yes, they do relate to information
22 I received from the witnesses.
23 Q. And finally at paragraph 12, halfway down, it says: "The main
24 suspects for the commission of these crimes appear to be extremist
25 elements of the Croatian Defence Council from Kiseljak, Travnik, and
1 Kakanj under the command of Ivica Rajic." Was that the information which
2 you received and which you mentioned earlier?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, earlier you -- you identified a list of deceased from Exhibit
5 08121, which you had prepared for us. I wonder could you go to your
6 booklet and open that page for us, please. It's page R0048852 from
7 Exhibit 8121. It's the list of deceased.
8 A. Right. I have it, Annex A.
9 Q. And you told us how you prepared that list earlier this morning.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, in addition to preparing that list did you see death
12 certificates for any of the deceased?
13 A. We received death certificate, burial permission slips that I
14 obtained from the official from Dabravine.
15 Q. And --
16 A. And I attached them to an annex in my report.
17 Q. And did you compare the contents of those death certificates with
18 the information which is on your list of deceased and did they match?
19 A. Yeah. They -- I think there was maybe a date of birth off here or
21 Q. And --
22 A. But for the most part --
23 Q. Would you leave that page open, please, for me.
24 And I wonder if we could ask to be put up on e-court Exhibit
25 number 8654.
1 Do you have it in front of you, if you look at your screen? If
2 you look at the television screen in front of you, do you see the
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. This is a death certificate in the name of Abdulah Likic, date of
6 birth 31st of August, 1936, and if you look at the bottom of the page, the
7 father's name is Likic Ibro. It was issued by the BiH authorities in
9 A. That's correct. I see that.
10 Q. Could you go back to your list now and tell me if the same -- you
11 have the same details?
12 A. Number 8 on the list there, Abdulah Likic, Ibro.
13 Q. And date of birth?
14 A. 31 August 1936.
15 Q. And the father's name?
16 A. Ibro.
17 Q. Ibro. Now, I don't propose to bring you through all of the death
18 certificates. Do you remember yesterday we did the same exercise in
19 respect to many of -- all of the deceased on your list?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And apart from some minor discrepancies attributable either to
22 some typos or dates being out by either one day or year, did the data
23 correspond with the death -- did the data from your list correspond with
24 the data which was on the death certificates, in particular the father's
25 or mother's name?
1 A. Pretty well so, yes.
2 Q. Have you any reason to believe that the certificates contained in
3 Exhibit 08655, Exhibit 0867 [sic], Exhibit 08664, Exhibit 08684, Exhibit
4 08685, Exhibit 08687, Exhibit 08688, Exhibit 08691, and Exhibit 08692,
5 have you any reason to believe that the certificates referable to those
6 persons are any different to the persons mentioned in your death list?
7 A. I believe the ones that we went through there were put against the
8 Annex A here. This exhibit pretty well matched up other than the typos
9 and ...
10 Q. Now, when you gathered all of the evidence during the course of
11 your investigations, can you tell us what happened to it?
12 A. All the evidence obtained during the course of the investigation
13 was turned over to our evidence custodian that was Sergeant Lunge of
14 Canadian nationality. He was the overall evidence custodian of the MP
15 platoon. So the -- for example, the -- all the evidence that Staff
16 Sergeant Verne had collected at the scene at Stupni Do would have been
17 turned over at the first opportunity to Sergeant Lunge who would have
18 taken control of it until it was handed over to, I think, the Hague here.
19 Q. And finally you mentioned earlier what efforts you had made to try
20 and contact Ivica Rajic, and I think you mentioned that you had received
21 information that he had left -- left Kiseljak. Did you receive any other
22 information concerning Rajic from any source?
23 A. One person I interviewed from which I determined that he had a
24 name change was Xray in my last report.
25 Q. Who was Xray?
1 A. Xray.
2 Q. Person --
3 A. Xray was a person that we -- that was arrested and held at
4 Kiseljak. And then eventually when I interviewed him he knew Rajic and
5 had dealt with him. And at one point I was given a form that was instead
6 of being signed by Rajic was now signed by -- and the name just escapes me
7 right now. Can I --
8 Q. Did you -- did you mention this in your report of the 26th of
9 March, 1994?
10 A. Of the name change?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. I don't think ... I have it in my notebook.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. Okay, yeah. Yeah. On my last report there. I had mentioned two
15 separate sources that indicate that he had changed his name to Viktor
17 Q. Viktor?
18 A. Andric, A-n-d-r-i-c.
19 Q. Yeah.
20 A. One I think was in dispatch -- dispatches maybe that I had seen
21 and the other was the interview I did with this person in the report was
22 identified as Xray.
23 Q. And this document that you -- that Xray handed you, did you see
24 the name Andric on this document?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. And did Xray connect this document to Ivica Rajic?
2 A. I just want to refer to my notebook here. I think I have it
3 written down there what document it was. Because I visually remember
4 seeing it, but now, you know, I don't want to -- I'm not a hundred per
5 cent sure memory-wise. I'll just have a look.
6 MR. FLYNN: This is my last question, Your Honours. I'll be
7 finished after this.
8 THE WITNESS: Okay. Okay. This individual was -- on being
9 released they were provided with charges which were being brought against
10 them. A copy was received, yeah, but they did not know yet when they
11 wanted to be -- they were going to be tried on the charges. They were
12 ordered to report once a day to the military security personnel. This
13 order was signed by Viktor Adric, A-d-r-i-c, [sic] which was Commander
14 Redic or Rajic.
15 Q. Commander Rajic?
18 Q. You mention two sources. Did you hear this from another source?
19 A. The other source, if I recall, it was probably on something like a
20 sitrep documentation. That's --
21 Q. Is this an UNPROFOR document?
22 A. Yeah, it would have been an UNPROFOR document.
23 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. I don't have any further questions
24 for you.
25 MR. FLYNN: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Thank you, Mr. Flynn.
2 Who is going to start for the Defence?
3 MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Your Honour. We have no questions for the
4 witness, and we have offered General Praljak any time that he may need
5 that's available to us.
6 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. For
7 your information, only the Defence teams for Mr. Petkovic and Praljak wish
8 to use the available time also from the other Defence teams for our
9 cross-examination. Following my examination, Mr. Praljak will put several
10 questions to the witness himself.
11 Could the usher please collect some documentation we have?
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Draper. My name is Bozidar
14 Kovacic, and I am counsel for one of the accused, General Praljak. I will
15 have several questions for you.
16 First, a question which has to do with some of your today's
17 testimony, namely page 35, line 10 or around line 10 of today's
19 Today you said that you sent a request, a query, through the UN
20 structure up the structure where you sought assistance in getting in touch
21 with HVO with a view to interviewing the participants in the action at
22 Stupni Do. Do you recall testifying to that effect today?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In connection with this, did you again from the higher-up
25 structures down to you receive any response in terms of what the HVO
1 position was with regard to this request of yours? Did you -- did you
2 receive any feedback as to whether the HVO had anything to do with the
3 fact that you didn't receive any response? You said today that you didn't
4 receive any feedback. The information you got, was it to the effect that
5 they got in touch with the HVO but never got an answer from them, or you
6 simply did not receive any response from your superior structure?
7 A. If -- okay, if I can clarify. As a military policeman, what I was
8 after was to interview people involved in the attack which I was never
9 able to do. I did get feedback from the BH command legal. I believe his
10 last name was Koet, K-o-e-t, and he had -- I think there was two letters
11 that we got from him outlining his attempts and the results of
12 communicating with the HVO. I remember seeing two memos from him, an
13 initial one. I think it was with the HVO liaison officer, Lukic, or --
14 and with a Mr. Banik [phoen], if memory serves. And it -- it had dealt
15 with information about the attack from the HVO side of the house. I
16 remember on -- I remember reading in one that they had -- they had
17 confirmed that Zijad Radic [phoen] was the senior member for the attack
18 and there were two members of the attacking force that were shooting at
19 civilians, if I recall correctly, but I was not able to -- they weren't
20 available to be interviewed. I remember seeing these two memos. I do
21 believe I attached it to one of my reports, did I not?
22 Q. Let us not go into any details concerning documents. Based on
23 what you've just explained to us now, can we conclude that the HVO,
24 through the contacts with UNPROFOR and the UN command, reacted positively
25 and furnished at least some information relevant for the investigation at
1 the time? Is that right?
2 A. Would I say by providing the name of Rajic saying that he was the
3 HVO commander and that the fact that there was two individuals that they
4 had -- were shooting at civilians was, and that's why I think I attached
5 them to the report. Notwithstanding that, it -- it wasn't my basic
6 request from the memo that I had submitted, which was what I was after.
7 It was to interview people. But there was communication definitely on a
8 higher-up scale.
9 Q. Except for the two memos you mention, you have no knowledge as to
10 any further contacts between the UN command and the corresponding HVO
11 commands concerning this event; is that right?
12 A. No. That would have been way over my head.
13 Q. Thank you. Let us clarify the following: In your statements,
14 including the statement you gave earlier and the reports, it is quite
15 evident that whilst you were investigating the events at Stupni Do, you
16 were aware of the fact that the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was also
17 conducting an investigation; is that right?
18 A. The BiH were doing an investigation on Stupni Do, is that what
19 you're saying?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. I believe that's right, because some of my witnesses were saying
22 statements to BiH officials. That was one of the reasons why whenever we
23 interviewed a witness we had to make sure that what they said to us was
24 voluntary and not anything that they were told to say to us. We made that
25 clear at the -- at each interview.
1 Q. Of course throughout this process it was quite clear to you that
2 the BH army was also conducting an investigation and that they had some
3 knowledge of these events. You confirmed this.
4 Did the army provide you with any information concerning the
5 results of their investigation, or did they at least give you some
6 significant information relevant to the investigation you conducted?
7 A. Unfortunately a lot of times the people I was talking to, you
8 know, I wouldn't know exactly who they were or -- unless it was written in
9 my report, but if I could get -- find out where survivors were by talking
10 to these officials and they led me to these Stupni Do villagers, I would
11 have taken that information and used it.
12 The gentleman I spoke to at Dabravine, he was, I'm sure, the
13 official I got the list of deceased from, and the list of living. And I
14 don't know whether he was a military or civilian, to be truthful.
15 Q. Very well. As far as you know, you didn't receive, or at least
16 you personally and your team, any final results of the investigation
17 conducted by the BH army; is that right?
18 A. No. At one time I was trying to get reports from them, but BiH
19 wouldn't give it to me.
20 Q. Let us move on to the investigation or the steps taken by the HVO.
21 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown Exhibit
23 Q. Or, rather, Mr. Witness, you have the folder in front you. Could
24 you please look at the first document there. I will have questions for
25 you concerning this document. And could you please read it. It consists
1 of only two or three sentences.
2 Let us first look at the date. It was written on the 25th of
3 October and signed by Zarko Tole. We see his function written here. He
4 was the chief of the Main Staff of the HVO?
5 A. Okay. We're looking at 363, the last three digits? Is that the
6 one you're referring to?
7 Q. No. No. Oh, yes, yes. That's right. That's the first page.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: That's the page of
9 the -- that's the number of the page.
10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. From this document it follows that the chief of the Main Staff
12 sent a letter on the 25th of October to the commander in Vares asking for
13 accurate information concerning the events in the village of Stupni Do to
14 be delivered. In the next sentence we can see that he already has some
15 information because the commander of the Norwegian battalion stated that
16 the fate of 200 civilians was unknown. "Submit detailed information on
17 what happened in Stupni Do."
18 Based on what you knew from before about the HVO conduct and
19 investigation based on the contacts you had higher up, doesn't this letter
20 show that the Main Staff reacted by seeking additional information from
21 their own units in order to take any further action if need be?
22 Do you agree with me that this request has to do with the events
23 we're discussing?
24 A. You're -- like the document I've never seen, so you just want me
25 to look at this document and -- and say this is -- this is a true
1 document? Because I don't have any knowledge about it.
2 Q. No. No. Let this be clear. I quite understand that you have
3 probably not seen the document ever, and I'm absolutely not asking you to
4 confirm the authenticity of this document, because you can have no
5 knowledge of that.
6 My question for you is: In view of the fact that you were
7 involved in the investigation on Stupni Do, and in view of the fact that
8 you had information about the HVO actions since your command had contacts
9 with the HVO earlier on that we referred to, would you agree with me that
10 when you read this letter, on face value it shows that the HVO was taking
11 steps to get more information about these events, because the Main Staff,
12 which was not stationed in Vares, sought information about the events that
13 were the subject of your investigation? Would you agree with that?
14 A. Okay. So I understand that. Like you're doing your part of the
15 investigation, you're trying to find out what happened to -- and that's
16 what this reflects. And I can understand that, that you'd be going after
17 that information yourself. As the BiH were going after the same
18 information from their people, you would be going after that information
19 from your people too. Yeah, I guess that's what you're saying.
20 Q. Correct. Does it not appear that this letter has to do with these
21 very events in Stupni Do, because the letter refers to events in Stupni
22 Do? Does it not also show that the Main Staff, too, did not have any
23 information about what had actually transpired at Stupni Do, because the
24 information flow was poor, the communications were poor? Does this not
25 show that the HVO was taking steps to obtain information on this? Would
1 you not agree with what I'm saying? You had occasion to see HVO
3 A. I guess, yeah. They were getting -- trying to get information on
4 the Stupni Do incident from what I gather at this letter. And whether
5 they knew what happened at Stupni Do or if they didn't know what happen at
6 Stupni Do, I can't tell you that, but just by the appearance the letter
7 they were going after information.
8 Q. Of course you can't tell that. Thank you. In your statement you
9 also said that on the first day you went to Stupni Do with your team in
10 order to take the first steps in your investigation. Shortly after you,
11 and you even said that you were in a hurry because with you there were
12 some news crews who wanted to enter the village and film it; is that
14 A. Yes. We --
15 Q. You need not go into any details. There were foreign news crews
16 that entered the village, is that right?
17 A. Yes, once we were able to pass the check-point.
18 Q. Of course. And roughly speaking, the news crews entered the
19 village several hours after you; is that right?
20 A. No. They were in the convoy with me. What happened is, once we
21 got through the HVO check-point we went to the village and everyone parked
22 in the field, and General Ramsay did an interview for the press people,
23 and I was talking to the BritBat commander there. Then once I told him
24 what we wanted to do, I had the BritBat commander, I think Hunter -- Roy
25 Hunter, lead the way and the press people were coming behind us, and
1 that's how it took place.
2 Q. So the journalists went in, right, with you. I didn't know that.
3 But undoubtedly the cameramen filmed a lot of footage there that was then
4 transmitted throughout the world through their respective systems; is that
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Would you please look at another document in the folder I provided
8 you with. This is P 06104. It's a handwritten document, and you have the
9 English translation of it. It's also very short. It was written in the
10 forward command post at Citluk and addressed and sent to Vares. It was
11 signed by the chief of the Main Staff. It's a very brief request wherein
12 he says: "We have received a confirmation by the HTV," and HTV is the
13 Croatian national television, "that they have footage of the massacre in
14 Stupni Do which they had received through exchange with foreign agencies.
15 "In order to take a correct stance, I'm demanding the truth about
16 this event so that the HVO Main Staff may take the proper position."
17 Would you agree that evidently the Main Staff learnt also on --
18 from the public television broadcaster that something had happen at Stupni
19 Do because the HTV, the Croatian national television, broadcast footage at
20 the time you were there?
21 MR. FLYNN: If I may, Your Honour. I know that the question
22 appears innocuous, but I don't think he can assume what the Main Staff in
23 Mostar saw or what they did not saw -- see. The letter suggests that they
24 had confirmation that the Croatian TV had footage, but there is no
25 indication that the Main Staff saw it. So perhaps it might be possible to
2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I partly agree with the objection.
3 The fact of the matter is, however, that the witness confirmed that
4 television crews entered the village at the same time he did. The fact of
5 the matter is that the news reached Europe very quickly, and it transpires
6 from the first sentence of this document that the HTV confirmed possession
7 of the footage on the massacre to the chief of the Main Staff, and the HTV
8 could not possibly have received the footage from anyone else but the news
9 crews that were there on the ground.
10 I believe Their Honours are aware of the fact that news agencies
11 exchange footage and news in the matter of minutes.
12 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] For your information, Your
13 Honours, the first news from Stupni Do did not reach the world on the 27th
14 when the news crews -- these news crews went down there. The BBC was
15 there even before. Thus the 27th of October footage was not the first one
16 to reach the world. I believe the first footage dated from the 26th or
17 even earlier.
18 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I don't think we need to prove the
19 fact that the news was transmitted, because we have the witness saying now
20 that he was there with the journalists at the time.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, with respect to the
22 objection raised by the Prosecution, apparently, but you've acknowledged
23 it yourself, apparently the witness is not in a position to give us any
24 assessment about the position taken by the Main Staff. So please rephrase
25 your question.
1 We have to remember that what's important in this handwritten
2 document is the second paragraph.
3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: If I may add a point. This paper here is dated
4 October 25 the witness came to Stupni Do on October 27. How can the
5 victim say anything about something that happened before he'd even been
6 there? You will probably have a good explanation. Thank you.
7 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I have an explanation, and
8 General Praljak provided part of it. The footage filmed by the
9 journalists who were there on the same day as the witness, on the 27th,
10 was not the first footage to be actually transmitted worldwide. It was,
11 rather, on the 25th that we had -- as a result of the exchange of news
12 agencies --
13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] No, no. There was no
14 footage on the 25th. There was a radio report on that. I believe that
15 this has to be clarified when we're talking about who reported or informed
17 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I was about to come to that point.
18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry. It is also a bit difficult to
19 understand who is interrogating and examining whom right now. Does
20 Mr. Praljak cross-examine Mr. Kovacic or -- because you seem to be in
21 contradiction there, and it is a bit confusing for the Chamber.
22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Trechsel, I
23 believe that evidently General Praljak wanted to assist me by providing
24 additional information that I may have overlooked.
25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Honourable Judge Trechsel,
1 even if there were 50 lawyers in the courtroom they would not be able to
2 reach an agreement about all the information we have. They would have to
3 actually spend 24 hours a day together. I would have to give him my brain
4 in order to be clear on all the points. I merely wanted to clarify this
6 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I will not be going back to this
7 document. There is this one piece of information relevant with relation
8 to the document, and it is up to Their Honours to decide whether the
9 document should be in evidence or not. We have other ways of introducing
10 this document into evidence. It is up to you, Your Honours. I believe it
11 was important for the witness to comment on this document just as he
12 commented on other documents that he never saw, like, for instance, the UN
13 document he was shown among the last documents that he commented.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, I have a question
15 for you, not regarding this document but the one before signed by
16 Mr. Tole.
17 I'm curious because of the heading of this document. I can see,
18 "Union of the Republics of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Herceg-Bosna." I
19 can't remember seeing this type of heading before, so what is that, this
20 union of republics?
21 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your -- President, if I can remind
22 you, that's the time when the name Community Herceg-Bosna was changed into
23 Republic of Herceg-Bosna. That had to do with international negotiations
24 going on at the time, and the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna used the
25 terminology that cropped up at those negotiations. Sometimes there are
1 inconsistencies that we believe are mainly due to translations produced
2 during those negotiations. You will find several documents dating from
3 October of that year where this term "Union" is used next to Croatian
4 Republic of Herceg-Bosna on a par.
5 I hope that I have explained this sufficiently for the time being,
6 and maybe we will be able to clarify it further through other documents.
7 Q. Witness, I would like to spend some more time on your second
8 report of the 22nd March. For the record, it's P 08121.
9 Without going into too many details, on page 1, item 1, you
10 enumerated the names of certain direct perpetrators as you were able to
11 collect them through the various interviews that you told us about. Do
12 you know whether this report, or at least some information contained
13 therein, had been conveyed to the HVO through contacts at your level or
14 maybe at a higher level?
15 A. Okay. Yeah, the interpreter was -- you were coming through
16 talking more than the interpreter was, but I think you were saying that
17 the -- my reports went to HVO officials. Do I know if that happened? No,
18 I don't know if that happened, sir. That wouldn't have been up to me. If
19 such a thing happened, it would have been over my head. Once the report
20 left me, it went to BH authorities, and they would decide who gets the
22 Q. Very well. While we're there, let us clarify one more point that
23 was mentioned today. Based on your interviews with the victims, I'd like
24 to ask you the following: Do you agree, and is it correct, that the
25 participants in that event, the alleged perpetrators of crimes, would come
1 or had come, according to interviewees, from Kiseljak? That was one place
2 mentioned by the interviewees as the origin of the perpetrators. Some of
3 them at least.
4 A. Yes, that's correct. There were --
5 Q. The next place mentioned was Kakanj. Some perpetrators seemed to
6 have come from Kakanj.
7 A. Yeah, I believe that was one of the places mentioned too. And --
8 Q. All right. And the next place mentioned was Mir village, not far
9 from Stupni Do.
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Some interviewees mentioned men from Vares.
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Could you by any chance remember some details about the men from
14 Vares? Were they supposed to be from Vares town or the broader area of
15 the municipality of Vares?
16 A. I don't know if they were from the town or the broader an area.
17 Only that the witnesses were able to just -- I don't know if the ones were
18 from Vares, but some of them recognised their names or their voices
19 because they were employed with them or went to school with them earlier
20 in life. There was like a personal knowledge.
21 Q. Thank you. One more thing in conclusion. You described to us the
22 whole process of your work, the distribution of the workload, the crew
23 that you had, the resources that you disposed of, and from all that it was
24 clear that you were under a number of constraints. The situation was far
25 from ideal. But it's obvious that you did undertake everything within
1 your power to do that job in the best possible way; is that correct?
2 A. That's the way that we're trained.
3 Q. That's right. In view of the number of the victims and the
4 circumstances under which the crime occurred, you as a military -- as an
5 experienced military policeman, would you say that if this investigation
6 were conducted under normal circumstances in your country that the method
7 of work, the number of people engaged, the resources used would be
8 significantly better, including appropriate forensic experts, medical
9 officers, the site visit would have lasted a lot longer? Could you just
10 in a few words tell us about this comparison or possible differences
11 between the way it would have been done in your country and the way it was
12 actually done there?
13 A. I guess the easiest way to explain is there is -- the MP platoon
14 over there, we didn't have no resources whatsoever nor -- no criminal
15 investigation kit, no video cameras, no tape recorders, no cameras, no
16 nothing. Everything that we used we obtained by ourselves not through --
17 like the video cameras weren't from the UN or any other detachment. We
18 obtained them from -- for example, we obtained them from CanBat 2 in
19 Visoko. It wasn't part of their military. It was -- these cameras were
20 set up for use by soldiers to film themselves to send home videos. So I
21 had two of my people go over and sign them up -- sign them out and we used
22 them for the rest of our tour. We kept them signed out. We didn't have
23 no equipment. Whereas in Canada you would have had complete criminal -- a
24 team just set up for forensics, I imagine, all the resources, I guess, a
25 big city would have. I don't know much about that to be truthful, but I
1 imagine if the equipment is at a police officer's disposal he should be
2 able to use it.
3 So it was night and day if that's what you're getting at, between
4 the resources available to us in, you know, Canada, say.
5 Q. Would you agree that the most critical link in that chain was the
6 absence of post-mortems and the lack of autopsy reports and other
7 expertise that results from post-mortems? Did you as an investigator feel
8 that there is no compensating for this lack -- for this lacking component
9 in any way that would be remotely appropriate? The footage filmed by the
10 cameras intended for home videos did not remotely make up for that. Would
11 you agree?
12 A. If what you're saying is the -- the equipment that we didn't have
13 or anything, none of that really mattered to me. The only thing that I
14 was after was interviews with witnesses. And the more the merrier. That
15 way you get cooperation. So as long as I got those interviews I wasn't
16 too concerned about the rest of the information, you know, the evidence
17 and that type of thing. What I needed was people that had first-hand
18 knowledge of what had happened there, and the more cooperation I got, then
19 the better. So just because we didn't have the equipment wasn't vital in
20 my mind. What was vital was to get people who -- who were harmed, their
21 statements, their interviews done.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness. We have to make a
23 break because the tape is running out.
24 We are going to have a 20-minute break and we will start,
25 therefore, if 20 minutes' time.
1 --- Recess taken at 12.36 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The hearing is
5 Before I give the floor back Mr. Kovacic, the registrar has to
6 give some clarifications on an IC number. We might forget if we don't do
7 it now. You have the floor.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Just one very
9 quick clarification for the transcript and the record. Today we -- I have
10 assigned an IC number, 513, to the list submit the by 5D for Witness
11 Patrick van der Weijden. The -- in fact, the list was already in evidence
12 under the Exhibit number IC 387. Therefore, the IC 513 exhibit is still
13 available for the next list.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for your information I
16 just have one more question. I believe Mr. Praljak has several more, and
17 then my colleague, Ms. Alaburic, will take over.
18 Q. Witness, I have just one more question concerning your last
19 answer. Would you agree that in a professional police investigation of
20 any police force in the world material, forensic evidence, is more
21 important than witness statements, than witness testimony?
22 A. Before we answer that, could I just go back to a question that you
23 had asked previously? I don't want to mislead you. And that was when you
24 asked about the soldiers from Vares, and I might have given you an
25 impression that there was lots of soldiers from -- HVO soldiers from Vares
1 that took place in the attack, and I racked my brain while we had the
2 break, and I definitely can say they were from Mir. But as for Vares, I
3 remember one person saying that he worked with a guy that worked in the
4 mine at Vares-Majdan or like that, something like that, but for the lie of
5 me I can't recall, you know, a bunch of them or anything. In fact, when
6 they are stranded out in the bush there when they came to the check-point
7 the locals there had kind of helped them out.
8 As for this last question, first-hand eyewitness evidence is, in
9 my book, the best, especially when it is corroborated by other witnesses,
10 and that supports all the forensic evidence, although I agree with you
11 that DNA evidence is -- certainly puts people in certain places, and the
12 same as fingerprints. So, you know, definitely useful. But when you have
13 witnesses that give evidence, what could be more --
14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. -- Mr. Draper, I would like to put a question
15 in this context. You have also not really answered another part of a
16 question of Mr. Kovacic, Mr. Draper, and that was the question as to what
17 defects does the investigation have due to the absence of a proper
18 post-mortem and autopsies?
19 THE WITNESS: It -- the absence would -- wouldn't give the exact
20 cause of death. Is that what you're getting at? That I agree with that,
22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm not talking in general terms. I'm talking
23 about your investigation. Did it suffer? Does it show weaknesses due to
24 the absence or the lateness of autopsy or post-mortem? I believe that was
25 the question Mr. Kovacic had posed.
1 THE WITNESS: It -- it would -- it would be better if the
2 autopsies were done as soon as possible, if -- yeah, certainly. The same
3 as all evidence. You know, if we were right there right at the -- the
4 outset to get all the evidence and could account for it, that would be
5 great too.
6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: But do you -- do you feel that this is a weakness
7 of your report, that there must be -- one must read it with caution
8 because in the case of this investigation there was no immediate
9 post-mortem and autopsy but it was delayed, and maybe not up to the
10 highest standards of forensic medicine?
11 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it wouldn't be up to the highest standards
12 of -- of that notwithstanding.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, following up on the
14 question put by Judge Trechsel, and I don't think my question is going to
15 interfere at all with the cross-examination.
16 Witness, I do have some knowledge in this field, and I was really
17 struck, looking at the footage but also looking at the photographs, but
18 especially at the video footage. I noted this: We saw some bodies,
19 charred bodies spread out throughout the village at some places. I really
20 watched closely where they were and what was around the bodies, and I
21 asked myself this technical question, and I know you are a specialist so
22 you might be able to answer my question: The bodies obviously were
23 carbonised. They were burned. How? We don't know. However, on several
24 occasions I saw that around the bodies there was no trace of flames, of
25 fire, of anything burnt. You see the body, the charred body, and next to
1 it there's no trace at all of fire or of flames.
2 There could be three ways. There was a shell, incendiary shell
3 that fell next to the body, or it could have been sprinkled with fuel and
4 then burned, or you use a flame thrower. But at least in the last two
5 hypotheses, the space around the body should show traces of fire or
6 flames, of being burnt. And on several occasions on the video footage you
7 can't see anything, so I asked myself, the bodies we saw, were they not
8 transported on the location whilst they were burnt elsewhere? So hence
9 the technical questions raised by Mr. Kovacic and my colleague.
10 When you carried out your investigation, did you look into that
11 question, namely how the bodies were burned and how it came that around
12 the bodies there was no trace of flames or fire or incendiary material?
13 Do you have a technical answer to provide?
14 THE WITNESS: As you had mentioned, you kind of indicated I was a
15 specialist at the beginning of your statement, and I'm not whatsoever an
16 expert in any of that type of thing. The bodies could have been moved
17 there. They -- they -- it could -- any one of the scenarios you said. I
18 don't know. I couldn't give you an explanation. Whereas through the
19 interviews we had there were accounts of these people being dragged into
20 the homes that were already on fire. So that's why the -- the eyewitness
21 accounts were ever so important in this investigation. But forensic
22 evidence would definitely, I assume, tell you how the bodies were burnt,
23 if there were any accelerants used or that type of thing, sir.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We won't go
1 any more with this topic of the importance of forensics in investigations.
2 Just one more thing. We saw, among other things, victims here that are
3 bearing traces of one or two gunshot wounds, and it transpires from their
4 autopsy reports, whatever their value, how they sustained them.
5 If there is gunpowder on the wound, it could be established with
6 the naked eye whether the person was shot point blank or from a greater
7 distance, and that would help us establish whether the victim had been
8 killed as a result of a conflict or executed at close range.
9 Would you agree that it would have been good if we had such
10 forensic data? Would you agree that such forensic evidence would be
11 extremely welcome, bearing in mind all the evidence provided by the
13 A. I --
14 Q. Sorry, we have little time. Would you just briefly answer with a
15 yes or no, or maybe "I don't know," if you don't know, because we really
16 don't have time for long explanations. Did I give you an example which
17 shows that forensic evidence was important in this case, at least in some
19 A. I'm quite sure you're right, sir. That's why the bodies were
20 burnt, to get rid of the forensic evidence, if you know what I mean? If
21 there was forensic evidence like gunpowder burns, you know by burning the
22 bodies it kind of disappears. But for -- for the bodies that weren't
23 burnt, yeah, definitely.
24 Q. Yes. Right. Very well.
25 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I would have more questions about
1 this, but in view of the time constraints I'm going to let my client
2 continue the examination.
3 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Draper. I would appreciate
5 short answers, and if you want to give a longer explanation, could you
6 please indicate that to me.
7 I took part in that war, and when we look at photographs like this
8 we must understand that that's part of those things that war brings, and
9 we have to face them.
10 You said that from your information from various sources the
11 village was defended by 36 members of the BH army. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes, approximately 36. That's correct, sir.
13 Q. Thank you. From your scouting of the village, did you observe any
14 trenches around the village?
15 A. We didn't go outside the village just due to safety concerns, for
16 the team's safety itself. So, no, I didn't go through any trenches, sir.
17 But through --
18 Q. Sorry, sorry. Could you -- could you please answer again, because
19 my -- my headset was turned off for a second. I'm sorry.
20 A. Okay. I'll repeat my answer. No, we didn't go and visit any of
21 the trench areas because of -- for safety concerns. It was a little bit
22 too far out of the village, and we wouldn't be able to have the security
23 provided with us, but I -- so to answer your question, I personally
24 didn't, no. We were there, sir, if that's what you mean. Defenders said
25 there were trenches as we were manning them.
1 Q. Thank you very much. Do you know based on the interviews that you
2 made that during the HVO attack on that defended village whether shooting
3 came from houses as well as trenches? Are you aware that houses also held
4 some combat positions?
5 A. Quite possibly, because I know there was BiH defenders protecting
6 the shelters where inhabitants were protected.
7 Q. Thank you. Similarly, you noted quite clearly that 193 persons
8 from that village survived what we call the massacre at Stupni Do. Is
9 that right, 193 persons left that village alive?
10 A. Quite possible -- yeah, right around that number. There might
11 have been a few more that weren't on the list that I first received.
12 Q. In your report on page 17 of the Croatian version, there's
13 something I want to read and then you will comment. It says: "Most HVO
14 members were horrified when they had heard what had happened at Stupni Do.
15 Nobody had told them about it before. The soldiers brought some food and
16 treated them kindly."
17 This is a reference to the large group of refugees received at
18 that HVO check-point.
19 You say: "Two UNPROFOR vehicles arrived, but the HVO prevented
20 them from being evacuated because they were afraid. They were fearing --
21 they were fearing a BH army attack."
22 Is it true what you said in this report that these soldiers were
23 horrified? One. And secondly, is it true that HVO soldiers received
24 refugees at their check-point and later enabled them to cross over to
25 BH-held territory?
1 A. Yeah, I recall that. That was from some of the witnesses and that
2 group of refugees that arrived at that check-point that was manned by
3 local HVO, and they were, I recall from the interview, they were -- didn't
4 really realise what had gone on, weren't aware of it and what happened,
5 and they were shocked at the events, and I believed dressed some of the
6 wounded and give them some bread and some -- along those lines, what they
8 Q. Thank you very much. On page 13 of your report you say that based
9 on some information you received later you learnt of something that was
10 found at Stupni Do, and it was a sign which had the letters HOS there and
11 an emblem of a chequerboard, red and white squares, and beneath the sign
12 it said, "For homeland ready." Have I quoted your words well?
13 A. Yes, more than likely. I remember that was probably on the 12th
14 of November, 1993, when we had a return trip to Stupni Do and we were
15 trying to identify all the body locations and the names of those people,
16 and it was found on the ground at that time. Is this the one -- I'm sure
17 you read it. Is this the one where Master Corporal McKee says that it was
18 quite noticeable and he would have noticed it last time around?
19 Q. Thank you very much. Do you know that the HOS was not under the
20 command of the Croatian Defence Council? Are you aware of this?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you know that these units were either an independent military
23 force or are under the command of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
24 A. From the information I gathered from interviews they were under
25 the command of Colonel Ivica Rajic from Kiseljak.
1 Q. I didn't receive interpretation. I'm not denying that they may
2 have been under the command of Ivica Rajic, but they were not under the
3 command of the HVO, but never mind. I should like to put another question
4 to you, and could we have that video on standby, the one that we already
5 watched. I would like it to be stopped at some sections.
6 When on the 27th of October you entered the village for the first
7 time, you inspected the village carefully and thoroughly; is that right?
8 A. Not myself. I had Master Corporal Scott McKee do the crime scene
9 processing so he would have gone through it very closely, whereas I did a
10 general walkthrough of the village to see what was what. I myself did not
11 go through each crime scene processing it.
12 Q. Thank you very much. I'm interested in the following, Mr. Draper:
13 Any one of the four TV crews, there were also security officers there,
14 Mr. McKee, and you, all of you there were able to find 16 corpses; is that
16 A. Yeah. One of which that didn't appear to look like -- well, we
17 didn't know if it was an animal or human. But we treated it as a human.
18 And ...
19 Q. Fine. So there could have been less than 16, but you definitely
20 found 16 corpses.
21 Can you explain the Honourable Judges in what way you were able to
22 find 22 more bodies at a later stage, thus arriving at the total number of
23 37? This remains an enigma, a mystery. If you entered the village, you
24 inspected it thoroughly and photographed it and established that there
25 were 16 bodies. In what way were you subsequently able to arrive at 37
1 persons who were killed at Stupni Do through whichever procedures you
2 used? And I don't know which sort of procedures these could have been.
3 How is this possible?
4 A. After the 16 bodies were done and we left the area in early
5 November, BiH authorities, I guess, mounted an offensive or whatever and
6 took over the Stupni Do area. And once it was back under their control,
7 the villagers were able to go back to their village, and of course the
8 relatives and the victims knew where people were killed, and -- plus do a
9 more thorough search for bodies, and that's where the rest were
10 discovered, because while we were there we did not shift through any of
11 the burnt-down houses. Most of the bodies were found underneath debris
12 from buildings that had collapsed in on them. And as -- with the more
13 interviews I did, the more corroboration I could get from people that had
14 found these bodies. For example --
15 Q. My apologies, sir. Excuse me. Could we now have that video clip
16 shown, and we will see that there are quite a few burnt houses there, but
17 there are no ruins there. We will stop at some sections, and you will
18 tell me which ruins you were supposed to shift through or sift through to
19 find these additional corpses.
20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Could we have the video
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, the video,
24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] The first one. The long
1 MR. FLYNN: Which part of the first one are we talking about, the
2 part with the bodies, the crime scenes, or are we talking about the part
3 with the damage to the buildings?
4 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Both of them. I will ask
5 them to be stopped at some points to put questions.
6 Q. Sir, please let me know when you see the ruin that you were
7 supposed to go through where you were unable to see dead bodies
8 beforehand. We can see that the houses were burned.
9 [Videotape played]
10 THE WITNESS: Stop there.
11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Is this a ruin?
13 A. This is scene 1 where around -- so you're asked after the 22
14 bodies that --
15 Q. Sir, please. I'm the one leading this. You're telling me that
16 this is a ruin. We can't go into all the details, repeating that this is
17 scene 1. You are here to assist us.
18 You are supposed to say, "This is a ruin. We didn't have time to
19 go through the ruin, and there may have been a dead body left beneath
20 there." So please can you confirm for me the following: Is this a ruin?
21 A. I'm not quite following you. The -- I cannot tell you what houses
22 or what ruins the rest of the bodies were in. Only the people that found
23 the bodies can do that for you. I wasn't there when it happen. So how
24 can I say what building they were in? I would just be guessing or
1 I can point out on the map that I made out, but those buildings
2 and how they relate to the ruins on this film, I never lived there before,
3 so I won't be able to say exactly which ruin the bodies were recovered in.
4 Only the people that lived there and found the bodies would be able to do
5 that, I would think, sir.
6 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Draper. The military police of the UN
7 international forces went into a village, the village we're dealing with
8 here. You were investigating there until the month of March 1994. You
9 sign a report. You're talking about, at first, 16 persons plus some
10 additional corpses.
11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Praljak, I must ask you to keep to the facts.
12 There is no way that this witness has been investigating from the moment
13 he started on 27 October 1993 until the month of March 1994. He was not
14 there from A to B. Maybe it's a difficulty of the translation, but it
15 gives a wrong impression. He did not stay several months there, he told
17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Very well.
18 Honourable Judge, I --
19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I apologise. But he was not in Stupni Do all the
20 time. That is what I wanted to say.
21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I didn't say that. Can the
22 basis be accepted? We have the fact that four TV crews and a group of
23 international professional police investigators visited a village that was
24 burned but was not in ruins, and one did not need to have excavators
25 there. One could see dead bodies, both those burned and unburned, and
1 then they established that there were 16 bodies. The rest is propaganda.
2 This was used in the BH press, who increased the number up to 100, and
3 here they increased it to 37.
4 I'm not trying to downplay the events. I only wish to arrive at
5 the truth of what actually happened and at the accurate figures. How
6 could one get from the figure of 16 to 37? Where were 22 bodies then?
7 We're not talking about possibly two bodies that they might have
8 overlooked. These were 22 bodies that were additionally listed as Stupni
9 Do victims.
10 Q. That's why, Mr. Draper, I'm asking you to indicate for me here
11 where is that ruin which held so much rubble that you had to dig under
12 there to find 22 persons? But I may move on. I will move on to other
14 Could we play the video.
15 [Videotape played]
16 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Could you stop there,
18 Q. Evidently we could see a woman on the right-hand side wearing a
19 military shirt and a military jacket. Is that true, Mr. Draper? Is that
20 what we were able to see there?
21 A. I can't tell from here -- from here, but, yeah, there was one that
22 had a military top on.
23 Q. The third woman whose photograph we did not see, who was between
24 the two women in the background, was she not also wearing a military
25 jacket? You may know that or not. One of the two women we can see is
1 wearing a military jacket. The other one isn't. What about the third
2 woman who was killed there? Did she have a military uniform on or not?
3 If you don't know, tell us, and we can move on.
4 A. I'm not seeing anything on my screen other than black. Have you
5 got a different. There was a flash of --
6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Can I suggest that rather than taking this video
7 where one doesn't see anything, I didn't even distinguish a woman, you did
8 back, Mr. Praljak, for your question to the pictures, and the picture
9 00357599 would be the good one, I suggest.
10 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] 599. Yes, please. Could we
11 please have photograph 00357599.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Praljak.
13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Could we have the
14 photograph? 6116.
15 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] The photograph Mr. Praljak is
16 showing you to is 113.
17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] No. 7599. That's the
18 photograph. Could you enlarge it, please?
19 Q. Do you see, sir, that the woman who was killed and who is on the
20 right-hand side is wearing a T-shirt and a jacket that are part of a
21 military uniform?
22 A. The vest definitely looks military. T-shirt, it looks kind of
23 greenish, military greenish.
24 Q. Mr. Draper, you're saying "it seems." Let us be specific. Is
25 this the top part of a military uniform, the T-shirt and the jacket?
1 You're a professional officer?
2 A. It looks like one, sir, but -- but maybe, yeah, it looks like one.
3 Q. Very well. The woman whose had head we see leaning forward and
4 who was killed there, was she wearing a military uniform or not, to your
6 A. I can't tell from this photo, sir.
7 Q. Very well.
8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: As long as we have the picture, there is fabric
9 with a kind of a flower pattern on the lower part of the woman to the
10 right in the picture. Can you tell us what this is?
11 THE WITNESS: The lower part of her clothing?
12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Yes, where her left hand is resting on.
13 THE WITNESS: Part of her lower part of -- I don't know. It looks
14 like a dress to me.
15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Or a skirt?
16 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Yes. Thank you.
18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] In my view, it would be a
19 ribbon perhaps covering that part of the body, or a handkerchief or
20 something. But let's move on.
21 Q. Do you know that according to the statements here a pistol and a
22 hand grenade were found in the cellar? Were you aware of the fact that
23 according to some statements they had a hand grenade with them?
24 A. Not in the statements I have, no, I'm not. Or the interviews I
1 Q. I have one strictly military question. When gunfire is opened
2 from houses and positions are being taken, if somebody in the house is
3 wearing a military uniform would it not be only a natural reaction and
4 part of the professional conduct of armies that upon entering a house and
5 seeing a military uniform the soldier concerned would open fire
6 automatically? Therefore, a soldier entering a house and a cellar in the
7 course of fighting, upon seeing a person -- or upon seeing a military
8 uniform would instinctively open fire?
9 A. Are you talking about these people, this person that's there and
10 the other two ladies? Like I --
11 Q. Sir, my question is quite simple. As a member of the Canadian
12 army, a professional, when you attended trainings concerning capturing
13 features including houses, because I suppose it is quite ordinary for --
14 sometimes for military positions to be held in houses, is it not natural
15 for the people present in these houses would come out bearing a white
16 cloth and surrendering themselves, or else soldiers capturing these
17 positions enter the house, they smash the doors and open fire without
18 asking whether anyone is in the house, because presumably, had anyone been
19 in the house, they would have surrendered. Was this not part of your
20 professional training?
21 A. No. I'm a military policeman, and my training is, you know,
22 before you -- you --
23 Q. Very well. Thank you. You don't know anything about this. Very
24 well. Let's move on.
25 Could you play the video, please.
1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, this picture is disturbing
2 indeed, and I had put the question myself to you during the
3 examination-in-chief, and I believe we must pay attention to what the
4 Accused Praljak is currently telling us. My question is as follows:
5 Based on your experience in Stupni Do, in that region where the armed
6 conflict was taking place, were people, was the population aware that by
7 wearing a military uniform they could be mistaken for combatants? Were
8 they aware of that, first? And in order to avoid being targeted, would
9 people prefer not to wear military uniforms? I hope you've understood my
10 questions. If not, I'm ready to repeat it.
11 THE WITNESS: Yeah. If I was in that situation or if that was my
12 wife, she definitely wouldn't be wearing camouflage, because, you know,
13 walking around in a war zone wearing camouflage would make anybody a
14 target, I would assume. But I've never been at war and this is only
15 assumption on my part, but I definitely wouldn't want to be a civilian --
16 or if I wasn't part of a military organisation in a war zone, I wouldn't
17 want to be wearing camouflage of any type or have any military attire
18 around me. Does that answer your question, sir?
19 Like for me as a military policeman, we're trained to not shoot
20 and ask questions later. We have to make sure there is a threat to life
21 before we draw the weapon. Whereas a soldier soldier, it might be
22 different, but I was trained as a military policeman, not an infantry
24 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Our time is almost up. One more question. These sacks that we
2 see on the left-hand side, did you see any windows in the cellar that
3 could have been used as an opening out of which one could fire? Did you
4 notice if the cellar had any windows?
5 A. Through witness statements there was a girl hiding underneath the
6 legs of these three women, and when the HVO soldiers left after killing
7 them, she slipped out between them and went out a window in this room.
8 That would have been Mufida Likic. She was already shot in the leg.
9 Q. Please, permit me to tell you that you have to listen to my
10 question. I don't know how it is being interpreted to you.
11 In -- to your knowledge, did this cellar have a window, and could
12 these sacks have possibly been used as part of the protection normally
13 used in fortified positions? That was my question.
14 A. I can't tell you that for sure, sir. But they're --
15 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much. I would like the video to be
16 played because we could see some shells there, and perhaps we could
17 continue that tomorrow.
18 Let me now put this question to you: These 22 dead bodies that
19 were found later to have allegedly been killed at Stupni Do, was this
20 something that you arrived at based solely on the information you received
21 solely from the BH army? Therefore, the 22 dead bodies that you did not
22 detect at the time you were there, did you infer that they were there
23 exclusively on the basis of the information provided to you by the BH army
24 after they had captured both Vares and Stupni Do?
25 [Videotape played]
1 THE WITNESS: The information was provided by the villagers
3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
4 Q. When? Since what date did you start receiving information about
5 possible additional victims from Stupni Do?
6 A. Probably be early November to -- right up to March. Early
7 November 1993 to March 1994.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll continue tomorrow. It's a
9 quarter to 2.00. We need to adjourn. We will reconvene tomorrow morning
10 at 9.00 a.m. Thank you.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day
13 of March, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.