Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4148

 1                           Monday, 2 February 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, kindly call the

 6     case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 9             This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus

10     Prlic et al.

11             Thank you, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13             Today is Monday.  Good afternoon to the accused, the Defence

14     counsel, all the OTP representatives, and good afternoon to all the

15     people assisting us.

16             First of all, I'll ask Mr. Registrar to give us an IC number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             4D has submitted his objection to documents tendered through

19     witness Marijan Davor by 2D.  This objection shall be given

20     Exhibit IC0-0911.

21             Thank you, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

23             Mr. Scott, I think you have a new member of your team you want to

24     introduce to us.

25             MR. SCOTT:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 4149

 1             First of all, good afternoon, Mr. President, each of

 2     Your Honours.  I hope everyone had a good weekend.  Good afternoon,

 3     Counsel, and all those in and around the courtroom.

 4             Yes, Your Honour, I'm very happy to -- to present to the Chamber

 5     this afternoon a new colleague who has joined us some time ago, but it's

 6     the first time that he's joined us in court.  His name is Simon Laws, and

 7     L-a-w-s.  So a good name for a lawyer.  Mr. Laws comes from the Bar of

 8     England and Wales, where he is, I think, in his 18th year of practice,

 9     having been called to the Bar.  In that system, he has done both

10     prosecution and defence work.

11             I hasten to add, as I normally do, given comments that are made

12     from time to time about the size of the Prosecution case or the

13     Prosecution team -- well, case and team, Your Honour, that the team has

14     not gotten any larger, but unfortunately with the length of this case,

15     people come and people go.  The Chamber may or may not know Mr. Poryvaev

16     left some time ago, and one or two other members of our staff who may or

17     may not have been in court recently have left over the past six months.

18     The team has not gotten larger, but we have had some changes.  Mr. Laws

19     is a very experienced trial lawyer, and the Chamber will be seeing him

20     taking witnesses in court in the near future, and I'm happy to have him

21     join us.

22             Thank you.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Scott.

24             Well, Mr. Simon Laws, welcome, on behalf of the Trial Chamber.

25     We are very happy to see you get on board in the OTP team in charge of

Page 4150

 1     this case.  Welcome, again, and I'm sure that we'll have the pleasure in

 2     the coming days or weeks to hear you.

 3             Ms. Nozica, your witness is ready, I believe.  Let's have him

 4     brought in.

 5             Mr. Usher, please.

 6             Well, I avail myself of this opportunity to welcome all the

 7     associates of Ms. Alaburic.  Welcome to them, too.

 8             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

 9     welcome -- thank you for your welcome.  I have noticed that you have

10     looked at my associates with interest.  They're not in the courtroom for

11     the first time, but I can introduce them.  They are legal assistants in

12     the General Petkovic Defence team, Ms. Natalija Labavic, who is an intern

13     in Zagreb, and Mrs. Sara Lustig who is studying at the University of Law

14     in New York.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Alaburic.

16                           [The witness entered court]

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.  I hope

18     you can hear me.  Could you please state your surname, first name, and

19     date of birth.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am Slobodan Bozic.  I was born on

21     the 2nd of November, 1949.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current

23     occupation, please?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a lawyer by profession.  At the

25     moment, I'm working in a company as a lawyer, and I'm working in the

Page 4151

 1     human resources department of that company.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Have you had an

 3     opportunity to testify before an international or domestic court of law

 4     as to the events that took place in the former Yugoslavia, or is this

 5     going to be the first time?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I have never testified before,

 7     before any court.  I was questioned or interrogated by The Hague Tribunal

 8     in the capacity of a suspect, but I never actually learned why this

 9     happened.

10             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

11     and nothing but the truth.

12                           WITNESS: SLOBODAN BOZIC

13                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.  Please be

15     seated.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Let me give you some explanation.  You are a lawyer, so what I'm

18     about to say is not going to be of any surprise to you.

19             In these proceedings, you are going to be first put questions by

20     Ms. Nozica, as the Defence counsel of Mr. Stojic; and she's about to ask

21     questions of you, following which the other Defence lawyers seated on

22     your left, defending the other accused, may also ask questions as part of

23     their cross-examination.  After that, the Office of the Prosecutor, who's

24     represented by the people on your right-hand side, is going to

25     cross-examine you and will be given the same amount of time as the time

Page 4152

 1     needed for examination-in-chief.

 2             The four Judges in front of you can also ask questions of you,

 3     depending, of course, on the documents or the questions put to you, but

 4     we'll be very mindful not to take up too much of the time because we

 5     realise, based on the latest statistics established by the Registrar, we

 6     took up too much time.  Therefore, we're going to exercise self-restraint

 7     and make sure that we do not step in too often.

 8             Also endeavour to be very precise in your answers.  If you fail

 9     to understand anything, do not hesitate to ask the person asking you the

10     question to rephrase it.

11             We shall break every hour and a half for 20 minutes for you to

12     have a rest and also so that the audio and videotapes can be changed.

13             You have just taken an oath.  Therefore, as of now you're not to

14     have any contact whatsoever with the Stojic Defence team or with other

15     Defence counsel, or with the OTP, for that matter, because now you are a

16     witness of the Court; so that when you go back to your hotel, you're not

17     supposed to talk to anyone about the progress of the case unless of

18     course you want to speak to your companion, to your wife, just to say

19     that everything is going fine.

20             Ms. Nozica must have told you this.  She has a specific number of

21     hours for her examination-in-chief.  The same for the other Defence

22     counsel.  So you are going to spend at least two weeks here.  I hope you

23     made all the necessary arrangements.

24             So this is what I wanted to tell you.

25             Ms. Nozica, you may proceed.

Page 4153

 1             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, and

 2     good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.

 3             I would like to make a note that we have provided a new schedule

 4     of witnesses, and according to that, we plan this witness to be finished

 5     by next Tuesday because we have already planned a new witness for

 6     Wednesday and Thursday.  We know it's too early to make any firm

 7     decisions about this, and I do need to call the new witness, so probably

 8     at the end of the day on Thursday we will know what our schedule will be

 9     after that.

10             Your Honours, since we're talking about a witness, Mr. Bozic,

11     who's going to be examined in chief by the Defence of Mr. Stojic, too,

12     and the Defence of Mr. Praljak, if necessary do we need to instruct the

13     witness about the course of the examination-in-chief?  You have

14     instructed the witness about the examination of him by the

15     Stojic Defence, but I think that he also needs to be instructed about his

16     examination-in-chief by the Praljak Defence.  I think perhaps we need to

17     make that information available to the witness.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, it so happens that

19     General Praljak plans to put questions to you.  We, the Trial Chamber,

20     agree to that, but General Praljak and his lawyer will intervene

21     following Ms. Nozica's examination, once she has completed her

22     examination-in-chief.  So General Praljak will intervene after her.  This

23     is the way things have been scheduled.  General Praljak can ask

24     questions.  If you mention parts in your testimony that relates to his

25     expertise or his military knowledge, then he will ask the questions

Page 4154

 1     himself.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, Your Honour, but

 3     I would like to ask a question, if possible.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You said that I'm probably going to

 6     be in this courtroom for the next two weeks.  Unfortunately, because of

 7     the fact that I couldn't start my testimony because the previous witness

 8     took longer, and in the meantime I'm having some problems with my eye;

 9     and thanks to a lot of help from the Victims and Witnesses Unit, I have

10     managed to take care, to a degree, of my problem.  However, I am here at

11     the summons of the Court, and because of that I had to take two weeks'

12     leave from work.  If this should be extended, I will have to then enter

13     into the third week.  I'm working on assignments that have dead-lines at

14     my job, so I would like to know what this means.  Is there a kind of

15     dead-line so that I could plan my duties according to my earlier plans,

16     in view of the fact that my testimony is taking longer, but it was

17     planned to take only six days?  I would need to be back in

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina on the following Thursday.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are going to testify today,

20     tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, and on Thursday.  You will return on

21     Monday and Tuesday of next week.  Why, sir?  Because Ms. Nozica has

22     scheduled a witness who is about to testify over two days.  So if all

23     goes well, you should be leaving The Hague next Tuesday, if all goes

24     well.  Of course, you never know.  Sometimes things may come up which I

25     can't foresee right now.  So you're here for this week and for next

Page 4155

 1     Monday and Tuesday.  That's the plan.  You never know.  It could be

 2     shorter, it could be longer.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Of course, if you have any

 5     questions, don't hesitate to address them to the Trial Chamber.  It will

 6     be our pleasure to answer them.

 7                           Examination by Ms. Nozica:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon once again, Mr. Bozic.

 9        A.   Good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.

10        Q.   Mr. Bozic, you have given us your particulars in response to

11     His Honour Judge Antonetti's question.  I would like you to briefly tell

12     us which schools you completed, where and when, and to very briefly tell

13     us how you started working in your office job.

14        A.   I completed my primary and secondary education in Siroki Brijeg.

15     I finished the Faculty of Law in Zagreb.  After I served my military term

16     of duty in the former state, I worked in the Municipal Court in Mostar as

17     an intern, and then after passing my trial term of office, I passed the

18     Bar exam in Sarajevo, and after that I was appointed a judge of the

19     Municipal Court in Siroki Brijeg.  After a while, I became the president

20     of the Municipal Board of the League of Communists in Siroki Brijeg; and

21     then after that I became the President of the Municipal Assembly or the

22     mayor of Siroki Brijeg.  And after my term of duty expired, I returned

23     and became the local prosecutor for the Siroki Brijeg and Posusje

24     municipalities.  At the end of the 1980s, I became the chief of police of

25     Herzegovina, which practically covered 17 municipalities in Herzegovina

Page 4156

 1     at the time, and currently some of these municipalities belong to the

 2     Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and some belong to the

 3     Republika Srpska.  I was the chief of police in Mostar until the

 4     multiparty elections in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 5        Q.   Mr. Bozic, when you say the post of chief of police in Mostar,

 6     can you explain to the Trial Chamber which municipalities that police

 7     organisation covered that you were at the head of and when?

 8        A.   It was the period from 1989 to mid-1991.  These are

 9     municipalities, if you look from the south-east, from Trebinje, Bileca,

10     Gackonje [phoen], Vesinje [phoen], Ljubinje, Neum, Capljina, Mostar,

11     Jablanica, Konjic, Prozor, Posusje, Grude, Ljubusko, Siroki Brijeg.

12        Q.   All right, Siroki Brijeg.  And what happened after that?  Now

13     we're talking about this period from 1989 to mid-1991.  What happened in

14     your professional life?  After that?

15        A.   Sometime in June 1991, after -- a few months after the multiparty

16     elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Lucic became the chief of police,

17     and in agreement with the authorities that were in power at the time, I

18     was supposed to remain as his adviser for another three months; but in

19     the meantime, I actually opened my own law practice, which was under the

20     jurisdiction of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Bar and began to work there

21     after this work together ended after three months.  Unfortunately, the

22     three months in Bosnia -- in those three months, things happened in

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina which prevented me from actually starting to work in

24     my practice.  I stayed in the police force because already in mid-1991

25     the Herzegovina, Mostar, Capljina and part of the Dubrava Plateau area

Page 4157

 1     was ran over by members of the JNA and the reservists of that same army.

 2        Q.   And how long did you stay in that post?  And I'm going to ask you

 3     to tell us what happened from that time on until September 1992,

 4     approximately.

 5        A.   Practically, that was the beginning of occupation of Herzegovina

 6     and the beginning of preparations for the war and the attack on the

 7     village of Ravno, which is actually in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Today,

 8     it's the municipality of Ravno.  And these were forces that later

 9     attacked the area of Dubrovnik in the Republic of Croatia.  I stayed in

10     the Police Administration as an adviser of Mr. Lucic, and at that time,

11     since there were major forces of the JNA in that area, we were frequently

12     in contact with them, and at the same time in late 1992, that area

13     actually was significant to me because that was when I first began to

14     have contacts with the European Union monitors and UN monitors who had

15     arrived to Bosnia and Herzegovina and Herzegovina to see what was going

16     on with the units of the JNA.

17        Q.   Mr. Bozic, in order to be very precise, can you tell us what your

18     capacity was when you communicated with them?

19        A.   The initial contacts that I had with them, I was still the

20     adviser of Mr. Lucic.  This was in 1991.

21        Q.   And he was what?

22        A.   He was the chief of police of Herzegovina.

23        Q.   All right, very well.  Can you please tell us what happened then?

24     We're now going up to September 1992.  Did you transfer to a different

25     agency after that?

Page 4158

 1        A.   No, I stayed in the police because this attack on Ravno in

 2     September 1991 marked the beginning of the war, and practically the

 3     forming of the HV [as interpreted] in April 1992 actually took place in

 4     the area of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.  I stayed in the

 5     police because the Internal Affairs Department of the Croatian Community

 6     of Herzegovina [as interpreted] was the first department that actually

 7     began to function and to be organised pursuant to the adopted

 8     regulations.  So I remained in the police practically until the end of

 9     August or beginning of September 1992.

10        Q.   In page 11, line 1, it is stated "HV," and the witness stated

11     "HVO."  Thanks, Madam Alaburic, for the assistance.

12             Witness, you mentioned the HVO, not the Croatian Army, HV?

13        A.   Yes, that's correct.

14        Q.   When did you come to work for the Department of Defence?

15        A.   I think it was in the beginning of September 1992.

16        Q.   Who invited you to come to work to the Department of Defence?

17        A.   Mr. Stojic.  I had known him.  We had worked together at the

18     MUP for a time while I was in Mostar, in the Mostar police, and

19     Mr. Stojic at the time was assistant of the minister of the interior of

20     the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21        Q.   You say that he invited you to come over to work, to use your

22     expertise.  When did you get your appointment and to which post in the

23     Department of Defence?

24        A.   I started work without any appointment, formal establishment.

25     I think that the formal appointment occurred on a session of the HVO of

Page 4159

 1     the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna sometime in mid-January 1993.

 2        Q.   To which post?

 3        A.   Assistant chief of the Defence Department.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Deputy head.

 5             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   When did you leave that post?

 7        A.   I was on that post as long as Mr. Stojic was the head.

 8        Q.   Before the appointment to the deputy head of Defence Department,

 9     had you been appointed to any other body of the HVO of the HZ-HB?

10        A.   Well, practically, the first formal appointment was to -- as a

11     member of the Commission for the Relationship with UNPROFOR of the HVO of

12     HZ-HB.

13        Q.   Mr. Bozic, I'm making this pause so that my questions and your

14     answers can be reflected in the transcript.

15             Let's go back to the Defence Department.  What did you do after

16     you arrived there?  Sorry.  What did you do there after Mr. Stojic left

17     the department, so that we go through the whole of your career there?

18        A.   After Mr. Stojic left, there were some proposals that I join the

19     government in certain capacities.  In cooperation with Mr. Prlic, I

20     agreed to be appointed to the head of the Office for Cooperation with

21     UNPROFOR, the European Community Monitoring Mission, and other

22     international organisations; but I must highlight here that at the

23     proposal of Mr. Perica Jukic or at his request, I performed some duties

24     in the Personnel Administration, duties and tasks I had performed while I

25     acted in my capacity as deputy chief of the Defence Department.

Page 4160

 1        Q.   So for a time, you performed both those duties; is that correct?

 2        A.   Correct.  I was appointed head of the UNPROFOR, ECMM, other

 3     international organisations cooperation in December, and Mr. Jukic, who

 4     was newly appointed as the minister of defence for the Croatian Republic

 5     of HB, he asked me to remain there to help further development of the

 6     Personnel Administration and to continue performing all the tasks that I

 7     had performed while I was the deputy chief of the Defence of Department.

 8             In his words, "I have to find a new person to fill your shoes,"

 9     and to which I answered, "Well, let me see with Mr. Prlic first."  I did

10     so, and Mr. Prlic told me that I'm duty-bound to perform the tasks of the

11     new office and that I had my work cut out to develop that office, and if

12     I could perform some other duties along the way, he would not object to

13     that.  But what he wanted was for that office to function properly, and

14     this is why I considered to work in parallel on two positions, although I

15     have to state that I was never appointed deputy or assistant minister of

16     defence for personnel.

17        Q.   Mr. Bozic, how long was Mr. Jukic minister of defence and who

18     replaced him and when, and did you continue to cooperate with that other

19     person in the same way?

20        A.   Mr. Jukic stayed there briefly, a couple of months; I'm not sure

21     whether three or three and a half months.  I know it was a very short

22     time.  And Mr. Vladimir Soljic [Realtime transcript read in error,

23     "Coric"] was appointed to replace him as minister of defence, a person I

24     had long known.  We came from the same hometown of Siroki Brijeg.  I

25     explained to him the arrangements with Mr. Jukic that I had made, in

Page 4161

 1     terms of my assistance to set up the personnel and care department or

 2     administration.  He told me that I should be patient before an

 3     appropriate person is found to replace me, but unfortunately this took

 4     much longer than we had initially agreed to.

 5        Q.   Mr. Bozic, until -- what was the period when you worked in the

 6     Office for Cooperation with the UNPROFOR, ECMM and International

 7     Organisation of HVO HZ-HB?

 8        A.   Well, the Federal Government was set up pursuant to the

 9     Washington Agreement.  There was the Government of the Republic of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I believe the Chamber knows how it functioned.  The

11     true setup of government started after the Dayton Accords, which means

12     that my office worked approximately until March 1996.

13        Q.   Where did you go after that?

14             JUDGE PRANDLER:  I would like to say the following:  That I do

15     appreciate Ms. Nozica's efforts to slow down, but she also asked for the

16     witness; but I would also like to ask Mr. Bozic to be kind enough to

17     cooperate and to wait until Madam Nozica actually finishes her question,

18     since we have, of course, in three languages interpretation, and then to

19     answer only when the interpreters finish their job.  So, therefore, I

20     would like again to ask both of you to slow down a bit and to wait

21     between the questions and answers.

22             Thank you.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

24             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Before we continue, let us correct

25     the transcript.  Page 13, line 20, what is stated is "Vladimir Coric."

Page 4162

 1     What should be stated there is "Vladimir Soljic."

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a mistake in my transcript.

 3     It is Valentin Coric [as interpreted].

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   This has been corrected, Mr. Bozic.  Let's go back to March 1996.

 6     After that time, after the Dayton Accords, as you say, what was your next

 7     position?

 8             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the

 9     colleague.  The witness said that it wasn't Valentin Coric, but on

10     page 14, line 25, what is said in the transcript is "this is

11     Valentin Coric."  What I would like to ask the witness is to say what is

12     the name of the person he was referring to.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I noticed, although I do not use

14     the English language, to my detriment, that the transcript reflected

15     "Valentin Coric," but what I said clearly and loudly was Vladimir Soljic,

16     S-o-l-j-i-c.

17             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Finally, it is correct.

18        Q.   Can you answer my question, please, if you remember it?

19        A.   Yes, I do remember it.  After that while -- for a while I worked

20     as an adviser or an external associate of Mr. Vladimir Soljic, who had

21     been elected as president of the Federation, and with Mr. Ivo Andric

22     Luzanski, who was also president of the Federation of Bosnia and

23     Herzegovina for a while.

24        Q.   If you do not mind, I can assist you during the first break, in

25     terms of the names and surnames, because they -- the transcript is

Page 4163

 1     erroneous in this respect.  So we do not correct it here during the

 2     session.

 3             Mr. Bozic, you told us where you work now.  My question

 4     concerning this part of an introduction in your career, the last question

 5     in that part is whether you have ever been a member of the HDZ, Croatian

 6     Democratic Union.

 7        A.   I have never been a member of the HDZ.

 8        Q.   I know, Mr. Bozic, that you had to hear many instructions.  Do

 9     not ignore the instruction to wait for the question to enter into the

10     transcript before answering, so that we do not overlap.

11             Mr. Bozic, do you know when Mr. Soljic was appointed as head of

12     the Department of Defence?

13        A.   I think it was in July of 1992.

14        Q.   Do you know, and you said that you had known him from before,

15     what were his positions before that appointment?

16        A.   Yes, I do know, because we used to bump into each other.  He used

17     to be assistant commander for logistics.

18        Q.   Could you tell us his positions before that position?

19        A.   If you mean the Ministry of the Interior, well, he worked there

20     while I was in Mostar police, as assistant minister.  I think that his

21     post was labelled "supplies, financial and other affairs."

22        Q.   Mr. Bozic, until which date Mr. Stojic was head of Defence

23     Department?

24        A.   Well, this is a date that I remember.  Until the 10th of

25     November, 1993, when it was published on TV news what the composition of

Page 4164

 1     the new government will be, and I remember that event well.  Mr. Stojic

 2     had this information on TV while he was watching a news bulletin together

 3     with his family, his parents.

 4        Q.   Mr. Bozic, do you know when Mr. Stojic handed over his duty to

 5     the newly-appointed minister and whether, from the 10th of November

 6     onwards until the hand-over, did he come to the Defence Department?

 7        A.   He did not come to visit the Defence Department from the 10th of

 8     November onwards.  I was shown a document co-signed by Mr. Stojic and

 9     Mr. Jukic on the hand-over, and this was dated 15th of November, 1993.

10        Q.   Mr. Bozic, where was the Defence Department located?  Where were

11     its premises?  Let me remind you that in mid-September, you came to the

12     Defence Department.  Can you tell us, from your arrival there until the

13     10th of November, 1993, where were the premises of the Defence Department

14     located?

15        A.   The first premises were in the building housing the

16     Agronomy Institute or, better put, a major agro-business enterprise,

17     Apro.  We were housed there until after the conflict between Croats and

18     Muslims in Mostar broke out.  After that, we moved to several locations.

19     One of those locations was a private house in Cim.  Another location

20     briefly was in a private home on the Mostar-Siroki Brijeg road.  The

21     third one was at Citluk, within a factory site.  After that, we returned

22     to Mostar.  And when the Ministry was established and Mr. Lukic came, the

23     then Ministry of Defence moved to Posusje.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for counsel, please.

25             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

Page 4165

 1        Q.   Mr. Bozic, could you tell us, when did you leave the first

 2     location and when did you return to it, roughly the time of the year,

 3     maybe month, as far as your recollection serves you?

 4        A.   I believe that we left the initial premises in Mostar maybe

 5     mid-May, June, and we returned late summer, beginning of autumn, maybe

 6     September, maybe October.  I can't be specific, but this is as far as

 7     I can remember.

 8        Q.   How many people worked in the office of the head of Department of

 9     Defence, just his office, at the time when you arrived?

10        A.   There was the secretary, then the driver and bodyguard in one.  I

11     was there, and an administrator later came to work.

12        Q.   When you left the Defence Department, how many people had been

13     employed in the meantime?

14        A.   A handful of people, technical staff who worked there.  I must

15     tell you one thing.  It wasn't easy to find the right people to work in

16     the Defence Department because of the needs for people to be employed

17     elsewhere because some people thought that the Defence Department could

18     work with fewer personnel.

19        Q.   Mr. Bozic, what was your job when you came to the Defence

20     Department in early September 1992?

21        A.   I remember that my first jobs were, together with the colleagues

22     who were already in the Personnel Administration before me, to draft a

23     decision on the structuring of the Defence Department pursuant to the

24     previous decision about the organisation of the Defence Ministry adopted

25     by Mr. Mate Boban.

Page 4166

 1        Q.   You said that you had some colleagues there from the Personnel

 2     Department.  Can you explain to the Trial Chamber when this Personnel

 3     Department was formed and who were these colleagues?  How many of them

 4     were there who were helping you in these tasks?

 5        A.   The Personnel Department was formed before the forming of the

 6     Defence Department.  I think this was sometime in May 1992, and there

 7     were three people working there.  I know, for one, that he was a lawyer,

 8     one was a professor, and I'm not sure about the third person because I

 9     cannot remember what his profession was.

10        Q.   And you said that they were helping you at the beginning and that

11     you were working on the decision on the establishment pursuant to a

12     decision adopted by the president of the HZ-HB.  Did you work on any

13     other regulations at that time, let's say, in the course of October?

14        A.   I would like to correct the -- what you said.  You said the

15     decision, the basis for establishment, this was adopted by Mr. Boban, but

16     I said that we adopted our decision on the establishment of the

17     administration on the basis of the decision adopted by Mr. Boban.

18        Q.   Yes, I understood what you said, and I just wanted to ask you

19     what were perhaps any other documents that you worked on in October, if

20     you did.

21        A.   Since the Law on the Armed Forces was adopted before the

22     Defence Department was established, in a certain amount of time there was

23     a need for things to evolve and to expand; and I know that I worked on

24     the drafting of a text on the amendments and additions to the Law on the

25     Armed Forces, which if I can remember correctly was adopted at this

Page 4167

 1     meeting.  It was the last meeting of the Presidency of the HZ-HB on the

 2     18th of October 1992.

 3        Q.   And, Mr. Bozic, what did you then do later?  Were you charged

 4     specifically with some duties after this, and what were those duties?

 5        A.   At the time, I was formally still not deputy head of Defence

 6     Department, but I continued to work on my job pursuant to the decision on

 7     the establishment of the Defence Department and the defence section.  And

 8     in view of the work that we were supposed to do and in view of the fact

 9     that the civilian sector actually was under the jurisdiction of the

10     Personnel Administration, the bulk of my work was actually to coordinate

11     of the work -- to coordinate the work of the Personnel Administration.

12        Q.   Mr. Bozic, were you the only lawyer in the Defence Department?

13     And I'm not including here other organisational units, only the office of

14     Mr. Stojic.  Were you the only lawyer in that office which we described

15     earlier?  I'm not talking about the Personnel Administration.

16        A.   Yes, I was the only lawyer.

17        Q.   Mr. Bozic, after you were appointed deputy head of the Defence

18     Department, did you work on documents that were drafted or adopted by the

19     Defence Department?

20        A.   Yes, I did.

21        Q.   And did you work by yourself or were you assisted by these

22     persons from the Personnel Department and from other lawyers?

23        A.   Yes, I had help from my colleagues who worked in the Personnel

24     Administration.

25        Q.   Now I'm going to move to a new subject.  I'm going to ask you,

Page 4168

 1     Mr. Bozic, if you took part in the arming or providing weapons to the

 2     Croatian and Bosniak people in 1991.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a few questions

 4     of a pure logistical nature to put to you on paper, pens and erasers, in

 5     order to better understand a few issues that the Judges of this Trial

 6     Chamber will have to think about.  You will understand my questions, of

 7     course, because from your experience, I observed that you were a judge, a

 8     prosecutor.  You were also a chief of police in Mostar.  You had very

 9     high positions.  Therefore, I'm sure you will be able to answer my

10     questions.

11             When you were appointed within the Defence Department, if I

12     understood correctly, you were appointed because you knew Mr. Stojic.

13     Did he recruit yourself -- did he recruit you, himself?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Stojic told me that he

15     was forming that department, and knowing what I did before in the police

16     and knowing my experience as a lawyer, he said that it would be good to

17     have such a person there.  I don't want to seem immodest.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I guess you had an office.  Was

19     your office far away from his?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Our two offices were actually

21     separated by the office where the secretary was sitting.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Between your office

23     and his, there was the secretary, so you weren't far away from

24     Mr. Stojic.  We know that one of your duties was personnel issues.  Could

25     you please tell me how many people belonged to that department; 50

Page 4169

 1     people, 100?  Could you give me a ballpark figure?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before I'm in a

 3     position to respond to your question at all, I first have to say one

 4     thing.

 5             It's a fact from that time, the Personnel Administration was

 6     formed in 1992, regardless of -- in May, regardless of the department,

 7     and that personnel section was working, as you can see, on the basis of

 8     reports that were drafted for the second half of 1992, on registering

 9     those who were killed, wounded, missing combatants, and also on securing

10     assistance to the families of the killed, missing and wounded fighters;

11     and practically the Personnel Administration, when I began to work with

12     them, together with my colleagues, actually had not yet began to deal

13     with these matters that you are speaking about.

14             As time went by, perhaps starting from March 1993, when the

15     number of employees grew in the administration, the

16     Personnel Administration still did its work regarding welfare, also moved

17     on to assignments that originally were supposed to be in its

18     jurisdiction, but it did continue to record the employees within the

19     Defence Department, also registered members of the units, and later began

20     to issue IDs to members of the HVO.  So this was a process --

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me stop you, Witness.  One

22     moment, please, because your answer took three minutes, and then it will

23     be said that Judges' questions are too long, whilst my question only took

24     a few seconds, whilst your answer was very long.

25             I did not want to ask you about what you were doing.  It was a

Page 4170

 1     very specific question.  How many staff in the Defence Department?  I

 2     said 10, 20, 30, 50, 100, a thousand.  Give me an approximate figure.

 3     That's all I need.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, I have to just say that it

 5     is very important to know which period we are referring to.  Which period

 6     are you asking about regarding the number of employees?

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

 8     continues] ... said that there was an increase, that you started with 5,

 9     we ended with 50 employees.  That's all I want to know.  I just want a

10     figure.  How many to start with, and how many on the 10th of November,

11     1993, for instance?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Taking into account that the

13     Defence Administration had its sectors, then I would need to come out

14     with the numbers in these sectors.  I'm afraid that I really could not be

15     accurate, and I don't want to guess.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just approximately.  Fifty?

17     I'm not asking for a precise figure.  Just approximately.  Well, just say

18     you don't know and I can move on to something else.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot give you an accurate

20     answer.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay, so you're not going to

22     answer.

23             As to the people working in that Defence Department, did you have

24     together with you military personnel, people in uniform, with weapons?

25     Did you have military people with you or were there only civilians

Page 4171

 1     working in the department?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you're asking if I had a

 3     uniform, at that time we were all wearing uniforms, both civilians and

 4     military personnel.  It was the times.  Within the Defence Department,

 5     I think that we didn't actually have any military personnel.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So that's the main question.

 7     You have just said that in the Defence Department, there were no

 8     military, so even if you wore uniforms, I wanted to know whether around

 9     Mr. Stojic there were officers, captains, majors, colonels, generals who

10     had their offices just next to his.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we're talking about the

12     sectors, I was talking about sectors within the Defence Administration --

13     Department.  There was also the Main Staff, so everything that I am

14     telling you about the military personnel, I am talking about the sectors

15     that were within the Defence Administration; but I'm not taking into

16     account the Main Staff.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The interpreters are asking you

18     to be closer to your microphones.  You have two in front of you.  Yes,

19     yes, pull them towards you.  Thank you.

20             If I understood properly, in the Defence Department, later to

21     become the Defence Ministry, there were no military personnel, there were

22     no officers who would have had military positions.  Is that how things

23     should be understood?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now my last question.  In those

Page 4172

 1     various premises that you mentioned, was there one room with military

 2     maps in it where the various units or HVO brigades were positioned?  Was

 3     there somebody who, on a minute-by-minute basis or an hourly basis, would

 4     position the units on the map so that Mr. Stojic knew, in realtime, what

 5     the situation was?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that there was any

 7     kind of General Staff of the sort that you are talking about in the area

 8     that we are talking about, but I did say that within the department,

 9     there was a Main Staff; but not as a General Staff in the sense that I

10     understand you to mean.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Mr. Bozic, in relation to Judge Antonetti's question about the

14     number of employees in the Defence Department, I asked you a specific

15     question about how many employees there were in the office, the inner

16     circle around Mr. Stojic, and you said that there were five to seven

17     people, at the most.  Did I understand you correctly?

18        A.   Yes, I understood your question like that, and this is what I

19     answered.  As for Judge Antonetti's question, I said that that would need

20     to be also the total number of all employees in the other sectors as

21     well, so I didn't wish to speculate.

22        Q.   Well, I understood your question, but I just wanted to say that

23     when we come to the internal structure and organisation, we will cover

24     that in more detail and try to provide an answer, if you can remember it.

25             There was a question also, Mr. Bozic, about your eventual

Page 4173

 1     participation or securing of weapons to the Croatian and Bosniak people

 2     in 1991?

 3        A.   I did take part, together with colleagues from the Ministry of

 4     the Interior in Sarajevo and colleagues from the Mostar police, and I

 5     must say here, without going into names - I don't want to omit

 6     anyone - that the key job in that work was Mr. Delimustafic and his

 7     assistant, Mr. Stojic.

 8        Q.   Mr. Bozic, we're talking about 1991.  Why was it necessary to arm

 9     the Croat and Bosniak people?

10        A.   Well, I believe that Their Honours know that in the area of the

11     former Yugoslavia, at that time the Yugoslav People's Army had

12     confiscated the weapons from the Territorial Defence, and in a symbolic

13     sense confiscated weapons from the people themselves.  And in view of the

14     circumstances in the Republic of Croatia, there was a sense that hard

15     times were ahead and that it was important to try, as far as this was

16     possible, to arm the Croatian and the Muslim people, and one of the legal

17     ways, conditionally speaking, was to do that was the Ministry of the

18     Interior, which had its own reserve force that was fortunately not

19     disarmed by the Yugoslav People's Army.  And so using this reserve police

20     force, there was a legal option, through the Bosnia-Herzegovina Defence

21     Ministry, to arm the Muslim and the Croatian people.

22        Q.   And can you tell us of any other ways, that you are aware of, of

23     obtaining weapons?

24        A.   Well, I have to say that here, and I believe that Your Honours

25     know that, that the Croats and the Muslims were aware of the times and

Page 4174

 1     they provided -- they obtained weapons for themselves, costing thousands

 2     of German marks.  People were finding ways of getting weapons,

 3     themselves.  In view of everything that was going on in the Republic of

 4     Croatia, the transfer of large forces of the JNA from Slovenia and from

 5     Croatia, there was a sense of impending war.

 6        Q.   Mr. Bozic, would you like to explain to the Trial Chamber what

 7     was your specific role in the arming?  I'm reminding you of the Pasaga

 8     [as interpreted] statement which implicated highly-positioned officials

 9     of the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  What was your role in all that?

10        A.   Reserve forces' weapons were, for a time, warehoused at regional

11     police and local police stations.  That regional was the Mostar regional

12     police headquarters, and the central warehouse stocked a large quantity

13     of weapons in the central warehouse of the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

14     Mr. Delimustafic and Mr. Stojic allowed for those weapons to be

15     distributed, among others, to the police in Mostar.  Everything was

16     regular, in terms of paperwork and regulations.  And after the weapons

17     were received at Mostar, those weapons were distributed to both the

18     Muslims and Croats in the area of Herzegovina.

19        Q.   You say, in your last sentence, that it was distributed to Croats

20     and Muslims.  It was not distributed to the Serbs.  How do you see your

21     actions of the day, and what was your motive to take part in that?

22        A.   I believe that the Trial Chamber and any other observer may form

23     an opinion that such actions may lack professionality, and that they may

24     seem immoral to work in a state organ representing all of the citizens of

25     the then Bosnia and Herzegovina republic, and practically to commit

Page 4175

 1     actions that the same body of government should sanction.  In other

 2     words, to distribute arms and weapons and commit offences which that body

 3     of government is working to eradicate.

 4             But for myself, in my opinion and opinion of all the colleagues

 5     that I worked on that with, was that this was the only possible,

 6     reasonable, and justifiable reaction to what had happened before.  As far

 7     as I personally am concerned, on top of what was happening in the

 8     Republic of Croatia, that I described, my first decision was, when all

 9     the mask [Realtime transcript read in error, "mosques"] fell, that events

10     which really bared the situation for me was when tanks -- JNA tanks came

11     to Siroki Brijeg and when the police that I headed detected arms which

12     the JNA had distributed in Eastern Herzegovina in the municipality of

13     Bileca, of course distributing those weapons to the Serbs.

14        Q.   Mr. Bozic, could you tell the Trial Chamber, please, what do you

15     mean by the event with the tanks in Siroki Brijeg?

16        A.   It was an event which had, and I believe, it will have an

17     historical significance.  My take on that event was particular to me.  I

18     was then still chief of police in Mostar.

19             When I was phoned by the mayor of Siroki Brijeg, my hometown,

20     Mr. Andjelko Mikulic, his voice was a tremble, he said:

21             "What are they doing to us?  I'm telling you, they will not pass

22     this point.  They're not going to Croatia, and they're not going to

23     occupy us here."

24        Q.   Mr. Bozic, could you specify the date of that event, if you can

25     remember?

Page 4176

 1        A.   Of course I can.  From the 7th to the -- 5th to the 7th May 1991.

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I have an intervention.  In the

 3     transcript, page 28, line 5, you said "the mosques fell."

 4        Q.   Is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 6        Q.   What is in the transcript is something completely different.  If

 7     need be, you may later on explain what you meant by those words.

 8             You can continue, please.

 9             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me.  On that very point, I would object and

10     ask for clarification.  What the transcript, at least in English says, it

11     says exactly that, and I don't know what the discrepancy seen by counsel

12     is.  It says "all the mosques fell," and there's no indication of what

13     Mr. Bozic means, or the time, or the location.  And I think that we

14     should not go forward without some explanation for that statement, and

15     putting time and place on it.

16             Thank you.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.  While in the

18     French, it was not "mosques," but "masks."  So there must be a problem

19     somewhere, a hitch somewhere.  I've already pointed it out.  People

20     working from B/C/S into English have got to be very careful to what

21     people say in B/C/S, because mosques and masks, that's not the same

22     thing.

23             Can you please confirm what you said, Witness?  Witness, what did

24     you say, exactly?  Did you mention mosques or masks?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't speak English.  I can't

Page 4177

 1     understand, but I'm very fluent in Croatian, and the words "maska,"

 2     "mask" and "dzamija," "mosque," are not even closely resembling one

 3     another, so I'm really at a loss how this may have happened in

 4     translation.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What did you say, did you say

 6     "masks" or "mosques."

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said "masks."

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are you satisfied, Mr. Scott?

 9             MR. SCOTT:  Yes, Your Honour, and I hope the Chamber and everyone

10     agrees it was worthwhile to get that clarification.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Indeed.  Go ahead.

12             Witness, we were then on the 7th of June, 1991.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 7th of May.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 7th of May.  Very well.  7th of

15     May, 1991.

16             On that day, did Yugoslavia still exist as a state?  On the 7th

17     of May, 1991, was Croatia independent, was Bosnia and Herzegovina

18     independent?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Yugoslavia still existed.

20     Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina were recognised in 1992, recognised by the

21     International Community, and entered the UN.  At that time, Yugoslavia

22     still existed.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you said that the masks

24     fell or were about to fall, what did you mean by that?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I illustrated, by those two

Page 4178

 1     events, when I said the masks had fallen, it was believed that Yugoslav

 2     People's Army was supposed to be Yugoslav and people's.  It was supposed

 3     to work for Yugoslavia and work for the benefit of all the peoples.

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Bozic, you started explaining how the mayor of Siroki Brijeg

 6     phoned you.  You said that it took place on the 7th of May, 1991.  Please

 7     continue with your account of what happened afterwards.  We are

 8     proceeding very slowly, so please be as concise as possible, describing

 9     your first event with the tanks.

10        A.   After that, I asked an associate to check what was going on:

11     After that, I asked a colleague of mine to look into that situation, what

12     was going on in the city, and briefly afterwards, I received information

13     that a large column of tanks and trucks had passed through the town, in

14     the direction of Siroki Brijeg; that they destroyed curb-stones and

15     tree-lines in the city of Mostar on their way, en route.  And after a

16     while, we received further information that the people in the location of

17     Polog stopped that tank column.

18             Police started performing their duties in terms of providing

19     security and finding alternative routes for the traffic to continue.

20     They started securing that site so as to prevent any incidents from

21     occurring.  And in the afternoon hours, Mr. Stjepan Kljujic, member of

22     the Bosnia-Herzegovina Presidency, arrived there, in the company of

23     Mr. Jerko Doko, minister of defence of the Republic of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and briefly afterwards gentlemen Mate Boban and a

25     group of members of Parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina arrived shortly

Page 4179

 1     afterwards, because BiH Parliament was in session on that day.

 2             I arrived there for the first time with Mr. Kljujic, Mr. Doko,

 3     Mr. Boban, and the MPs, so a large group of people who did not allow

 4     Mr. Kljujic to address them because he asked them to let the tanks

 5     through.  After that, I returned to my office in Mostar.

 6             Late in the evening, while Mr. Kljujic and Mr. Doko and their

 7     associates were at my office, I received word from the reception that a

 8     JNA general wanted to talk to me.  His name was Zorc.

 9        Q.   Mr. Bozic, I apologise -- I apologise for interrupting you.  You

10     are explaining this in a very concise manner, but you are speaking very

11     slow.  You may speed up.  This is too slow.  The interpreters and

12     transcript will catch up with you.

13        A.   Thank you.

14             Mr. Zorc, which is not a characteristic of a general, in my

15     opinion, was looking very apprehensive when he came to the office.  He

16     said that he did not know what was going on, why this column of tanks

17     moved in the first place.  He said that he was in Slovenia for the

18     weekend when it happened, and since tensions were high, everything had to

19     be done to prevent even the smallest incidents from sparking up because

20     it may have catastrophic consequences.  So patrols were organised of

21     policemen and civilians who were working on preventing such incidents

22     from happening on that night and throughout the night.

23             Mr. Kljujic, the following day, managed to establish contact with

24     Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, and he requested that he come to Mostar to convene

25     a session of the Committee for General People's Defence and Social

Page 4180

 1     Self-Defence.  It was the highest body at the level of the Republic of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina dealing with defence and civil protection.  There were

 3     several conversations between them.  One particularly stuck in my memory,

 4     when Mr. Kljujic told Mr. Izetbegovic:

 5             "If you do not come to Mostar, from tomorrow on Croatian members

 6     of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina and members of Parliament of

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina will become opposition, will cross the floor."

 8             Another interesting situation occurred on that same day which

 9     showed the conduct of the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army.  Mr. Kljujic,

10     Mr. Doko and their colleagues were invited to a meeting to the JNA

11     barracks in Mostar, and they went there.  After a while, my secretary

12     told me that there was a call from President Tudjman's Cabinet, who

13     wanted to establish urgent contact with Mr. Kljujic.  I relayed to our

14     services the need to contact our officers escorting Mr. Kljujic,

15     Mr. Doko, and their colleagues; but soon afterwards I received feedback

16     that no contact could be made, that our means of communications were

17     jammed.

18             It was perfectly clear to me, what was going on.  I asked a

19     colleague of mine to go to the barracks in plain clothes and to tell

20     Mr. Kljujic that he was supposed to come to my office urgently, which

21     Mr. Kljujic did subsequently, and I told him, Mr. Kljujic, when he

22     returned:

23             "You, as a member of the Presidency, which is part of a

24     collective commander having jurisdiction over the defence of this

25     country, were held captive by the JNA, obviously with the intent for you

Page 4181

 1     to be isolated and be blocked in your efforts to try to find a solution

 2     to this problem."

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's time to have a break, a

 4     20-minute break.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.

 8             Ms. Nozica, please proceed.

 9             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Bozic, we stopped at the time when Mr. Kljujic went to the

11     JNA barracks, and I would like you to continue, but at the same time I

12     would like to ask you to speak a little bit faster and to be as concise

13     as possible and complete this topic, because time is flying by, and I'm

14     afraid that we won't have enough time to cover other topics.

15             Please go ahead.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the witness, please.

17             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Bozic, you will start -- can you please start again, because

19     your microphone was not on.

20        A.   It was the second day, when the tanks were stopped, the situation

21     in the area was very tense, and that whole day JNA helicopters and planes

22     were over-flying or flying low over the area of Herceg-Bosna, parachutes

23     were dropping in that region; and it could have been quite a serious

24     situation.  Mr. Kljujic insisted that Mr. Izetbegovic comes, and then he

25     came on the third day, and then he came to Mostar.  He came to my office.

Page 4182

 1             Now I'm going to say something publicly that I have never said

 2     openly so far.  Mr. Izetbegovic, who at that time was with Minister

 3     Delimustafic and, I think, with Mr. Stojic, Mr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic,

 4     too, who's the president of the Herzegovina SDA, said, and I will try to

 5     paraphrase him, in his well-known style, speaking quietly, You know, this

 6     is my greatest personal and political risk, greater than the one I had

 7     and experienced in prisons during Communism.  And then he said that the

 8     day before, he had gone to a joint Presidency meeting in Belgrade, the

 9     Presidency of Yugoslavia, when the then minister of defence of

10     Yugoslavia, General Kadijevic, told him that he should not get involved

11     in any of this --

12             MR. SCOTT:  I apologise, Your Honour, for interrupting the

13     witness, but given the discussions that we've had in recent days, I must

14     point out to the Chamber none of this is covered in the 65 ter summary

15     for this witness.  There's nothing about going into these sorts of

16     matters, this history.  This is a complete surprise to the Prosecution.

17     Exactly given the reasons and the points the Chamber has noted in the

18     past days about the necessity of fully adequate summaries that comply

19     with the law, this is a complete surprise and is not covered anywhere in

20     the four summaries that have been provided by the Stojic Defence.  We

21     object to this testimony.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, it seems that you

23     are addressing the issue of the intervention of the JNA in Croatia and in

24     Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it seems that in the summary, this issue has

25     not been explicitly referred to.

Page 4183

 1             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to stress

 2     that these events, and specifically this event, the participation of

 3     Mr. Bozic, were covered by Mr. Kljujic here on the 9th of October, 2006,

 4     and Mr. Bozic's name is mentioned on page 8015, line 6.

 5             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Sorry, Ms. Nozica.  This was not the question.

 6     The question was:  Where, in your 65 ter information, do you refer to

 7     this subject and announce that the witness will talk about it?

 8             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I stated in the

 9     summary that the witness is going to discuss his role in the arming of

10     the Croatian and the Muslim people.  The witness, as part of this topic,

11     replies that it is his motive to participate in that was actually this

12     event and another event.  So this refers to the 65 ter summary note on

13     the topic of arming of the Croat and Muslim people.  The witness himself

14     said that he was motivated by these two events to participate in the

15     arming, and I wanted to say that this first event cannot be a surprise

16     for the Prosecution because Mr. Kljujic spoke about that in the courtroom

17     here and mentioned Mr. Bozic when he was discussing it.  For that reason,

18     I believe that, first of all, it's a topic that was announced, and,

19     secondly, it's an event that is familiar to everyone in the courtroom

20     because it was discussed previously.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, you're complaining

22     because you don't have enough time.  You've warned the witness because he

23     had to be more specific in his answers.  You're talking about something

24     that everybody here has already discussed.  I don't think it is necessary

25     for the witness to expand on the fact that the JNA intervene and that it

Page 4184

 1     led to different positions at the individual level.  I think you'd better

 2     ask him, What do you know about the JNA; and then he would have said,

 3     well, The JNA intervened.  And then you could have asked, Did it have any

 4     repercussion on your own participation?  And then he would have given you

 5     a specific answer.  And then you could have moved on to another topic.

 6             Mr. Scott.

 7             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I just wanted to put a line

 8     under what Judge Trechsel said.  The fact of what another witness may

 9     have talked about previously, including Mr. Kljujic, is no justification

10     whatsoever for not putting it in the 65 ter summary.

11             Thank you.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Indeed.  To follow up on what

13     Mr. Scott has just said, in the 65 ter summary you should have said that

14     Mr. Kljujic -- because Mr. Kljujic had mentioned this, the witness would

15     come and add to what had just been said by Mr. Stojic.  You haven't done

16     that.

17             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I accept your

18     suggestion.  It's true that we didn't do that.  But as far as I

19     understood things, I asked the witness what motivated him to take part in

20     the arming of the Croatian and the Muslim people, and so this motive was

21     part of that whole topic.

22             I am going to ask for your indulgence and ask the witness to

23     finish off this first topic, if you permit.  He did say that there were

24     two events.  The first is the situation in Prolom, and the second one was

25     when the JNA was arming the Serbian people.  So I'm going to ask him to

Page 4185

 1     very briefly complete this topic and explain the second one, and that is

 2     as part of his motivation to act in the way that he explained.

 3        Q.   Witness, you heard I have just -- that is why I was actually

 4     trying to speed you up a bit because I understand that your answers on

 5     the first topic took up a lot of time; so I would like you to finish very

 6     briefly, whether Mr. Izetbegovic addressed the people and what happened

 7     after that.

 8        A.   Thank you very much, but I consider it important to say what

 9     Mr. Izetbegovic said in my office then, and that was that

10     General Kadijevic told him that he had nothing to do there.

11             MR. SCOTT:  No, I'm sorry, I object.  I object to -- my same

12     objection stands.  The Chamber's not ruled to the contrary.  This has

13     nothing to do with the efforts of the JNA to take away arms or -- we'll

14     agree to that, no dispute in the courtroom whatsoever.  There's no

15     disagreement in the courtroom whatsoever; the JNA, in 1991, made efforts

16     to disarm both the Croat and the Muslim side.  No dispute about that.

17     Can we move on, and not go on to a topic on which there is complete

18     surprise?

19             Thank you.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, there's no disagreement.

21     Everybody agrees the JNA intervened.  Now, for Mr. Stojic's Defence, what

22     is important?

23             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is exceptionally

24     important for Mr. Stojic's Defence, now that you're asking, since the

25     indictment does talk about joint criminal enterprise from 1991, that

Page 4186

 1     Mr. Stojic, together with this gentleman, took part in the arming of

 2     Croat and Muslim people in order to stand up to the JNA and then later to

 3     the aggression of the Bosnian Serbs.  I believe this to be an extremely

 4     important detail that this witness is talking about and which we

 5     discussed or mentioned in our summary on the 65 ter list.

 6             I do take into account everything that has been said in the

 7     courtroom, but I would like to ask the witness to tell us very briefly

 8     how all this ended.

 9        Q.   Did Mr. Izetbegovic address the people?  And then we will move to

10     another topic.

11        A.   Yes, Mr. Izetbegovic did address --

12             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me.  Before the -- I apologise for

13     interrupting interpretation, Your Honour; but I'm going to stand on this

14     point, given the very points that have been raised recently about this,

15     and that is the importance of this matter and getting fully adequate

16     summaries.  So I apologise if I'm trying the Chamber's patience.  I do

17     stand on this point.  That is the point we've made repeatedly.  If -- and

18     I'll add this:  If it is, as counsel says, exceptionally important, then

19     presumably it was exceptionally important enough to be included in the

20     summary.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I will confer with my

22     colleagues to see whether counsel can go on with her question about what

23     Mr. Izetbegovic said to the witness.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will ask

Page 4187

 1     Ms. Nozica to move on to another issue and to address an issue that has

 2     been explicitly referred to in the summary.

 3             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 4        Q.   On the topic of arming that you undertook together - we're

 5     talking about the arming of the Croatian and the Muslim people - very

 6     briefly just follow my question.  In the events that happened after that,

 7     did anything else happen that motivated you?  But just please tell us in

 8     one sentence.  You already did mention that, and the Prosecutor didn't

 9     object to that.  You said, I will remind you, that the police discovered

10     that the JNA was arming the Serbs in Stolac.  Can you please answer if at

11     that time you had contacts with any person, directly or indirectly, who

12     worked on the arming of the Serbian people with weapons from the JNA?

13     Did you have any contacts or did anyone ask you for contacts from the JNA

14     to enable this arming to proceed?

15        A.   It wasn't in Stolac, actually.  It was in Bileca where the police

16     discovered that the JNA was arming the Serbs in Eastern Herzegovina.  And

17     then after this was discovered by the police, the Yugoslav People's Army

18     or, better said, the officers who were in the JNA at the time prevented

19     the police from doing their job, and they never allowed us to complete

20     our police work.  These were civilians, it was a civilian vehicle, and

21     the policemen who discovered that recorded that in the truck there were

22     crates with weapons from specific military posts of the Yugoslav People's

23     Army to which this weaponry belonged.

24        Q.   Mr. Bozic, these two events which you described, were they

25     directly connected to your decision to proceed with other members of the

Page 4188

 1     MUP and the Mostar police with the arming, as you said, of the Muslim and

 2     Croat people?

 3        A.   Well, I didn't answer to the previous part of your question about

 4     whether there was anyone who prevented that.  Yes, there was a person who

 5     did prevent that -- wanted to prevent that, and after that, that person

 6     got in touch with me.  And then at some point in 1992, I found out that

 7     that person was prevented from an inquiry into this whole matter.  This

 8     was done by somebody who was in the JNA, and his name was

 9     Fikret Muslimovic, and he was a colonel.

10        Q.   I'm asking you whether these things affected your decision to

11     assist in the arming of Muslims and Croats.

12        A.   Yes.  I already said that.

13        Q.   In relation to this topic that we discussed relating to events or

14     documents --

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'm sorry for

16     interrupting, but you've just confirmed that it was decided to arm the

17     Muslim population and the Croat population because the JNA had armed the

18     Serbs.  Who took the decision?  Was it you?  Who decided?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I didn't understand your

20     question.  Who do you mean, when you say, "Who decided?"

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  In the transcript, I read

22     that "it was decided to arm the Muslims and the Croats."  One may assume

23     that you were the one who made the decision, you yourself, Mr. Bozic, or

24     maybe other people.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I said -- evidently there's a

Page 4189

 1     mistake in the transcript.  I said the first time at the beginning and

 2     later, and now I'm saying that these two events were something that made

 3     me finally decide, and not only me but my other colleagues too, that

 4     something needed to be done to arm Croats and Muslims in Bosnia and

 5     Herzegovina or, rather, Herzegovina, in view of everything that we knew

 6     about the conduct of the then Yugoslav People's Army.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand properly,

 8     you -- you, who given those two events, decided to arm the Croats and the

 9     Muslims?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said that that was my

11     personal decision, and the main persons were -- I mean, who made it

12     possible for the Serbs to get weapons --

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So it was your

14     decision.  Nobody else decided for you that you were going to arm the

15     Croats and the Muslims against those who were arming the Serbs.  So you

16     alone decided, of your own free will, that you were going to do so; there

17     was no committee, there was no chief or head of anything, you were the

18     one who decided?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We misunderstood each other.  At

20     the beginning of my testimony, I said that looking from the outside

21     perhaps it was unprofessional and immoral for someone working in the

22     police, and we all did work in the police, to do something like that and

23     to arm Muslims and Croats; but in view of these two events, I said - and

24     it was a mistake in the transcript earlier - that masks fell, and I said

25     that also before, that the key persons were Mr. Delimustafic, who was the

Page 4190

 1     defence minister -- Delimustafic, he was the MUP minister, and also

 2     Mr. Stojic.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand properly,

 4     because there's a lot at stake here, if I understand properly, you, being

 5     in charge of the police, had a perception of the situation at the time,

 6     and you made the decision to arm your fellow Muslims and Croats because

 7     you had information according to which the JNA was arming the Serbs.  And

 8     when you made that decision, it wasn't Mr. Boban asking you to make such

 9     decision, nor Mr. Stojic, nor Mr. Praljac [as interpreted], nor

10     Mr. Tudjman, nor Mr. Bobekto, nor Mr. Susak, it was you alone who decided

11     to do so?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say that I, myself, made

13     the decision.  I accepted to do a part of the work with my colleagues.

14     The decision to provide or secure weapons was Mr. Stojic, who was the

15     deputy -- assistant minister and Mr. Delimustafic, who was the minister.

16     They made the decision, and we agreed to implement that decision.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay, all right.  This is

18     clearer.

19             Please proceed.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for counsel, please.

21             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Can we take a look at the documents as listed in binder 2D 00288.

23     That's supposed to be the document at the top of the binder, please.  Let

24     me know when you find it.

25        A.   Can you repeat?

Page 4191

 1        Q.   2D 00288.

 2        A.   I found it.

 3        Q.   Do you recognise the author of this document?

 4        A.   This is the gentleman that I made reference to, when I said that

 5     I found out from a document dated 1992, that he was the person who

 6     prevented the police inquiries as to the illegal arming in Bileca.

 7        Q.   What is the date of this document, and do you know how

 8     Mr. Fikret Muslimovic, in his capacity as a highly-ranking JNA officer,

 9     was put into such a position, and do you have any information about his

10     career, his path?

11        A.   It is known to me that in Muslim circles, there were frequent

12     discussions about his arrival and about his position.  I read several

13     books about that, and I recall that from the book, the war diary of the

14     deputy of staff commander of the Army of BiH, General Stjepan Siber, his

15     memoirs entitled "Lies and Truths," it was stated in that book that

16     Mr. Muslimovic climbed to a very high position in the Muslim forces and

17     ended up in the cabinet of Mr. Izetbegovic.

18        Q.   Can you take a look at the bottom part of this page and read out?

19        A.   Yes, I can read it out, but I would like to make reference to

20     this first part, making reference to Bileca and the crimes committed by

21     the aggressors there, and the location where the weapons provided to the

22     Serbs by the JNA were disclosed and prevented police forces to undertake

23     inquiries, that all this was done by Mr. Fikret Muslimovic.

24             The latter part of the page that you refer to makes mention --

25     makes mention of something that I saw for the first time in preparation

Page 4192

 1     for this testimony, when it speaks about assessment that further increase

 2     of tensions may be expected, including possible confrontation between

 3     the -- between ARBiH and HVO, it is very important to make the situation

 4     between Muslims and the HVO as passive as possible and to influence their

 5     transfer from the HVO to the Army of BiH, which brings me back to the

 6     events of the 30th of June, 1993.

 7             What I personally noticed, when I took a look at this document,

 8     was the date, the 16th of April, 1993, which is after the Vance-Owen Plan

 9     had been co-signed by Mr. Boban and Mr. Izetbegovic, after an agreement

10     reached at New York on the establishment of a joint body by Mr. Ganic,

11     Akmadzic, Boban, and some others.  What struck me as significant

12     concerning this document is on the 19th of April, 1993, at Medjugorje,

13     there was a meeting convened between Generals Petkovic and

14     General Halilovic, with the presence of General Morillon, on commencing

15     the preparatory work for the establishment of joint command of HVO and

16     Army of BiH.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can we take a look at another document, 2D 00033.  It

18     is the next document in your binder.  Could you comment on it?

19        A.   Yes, I can see it.  This explains how weapons were forwarded from

20     the central warehouse of the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina to Mostar, and

21     I can see the very well-known-to-me signature of Mr. Stojic.

22        Q.   Is this a document which corroborates part of your testimony

23     explaining how these weapons ended up where they ended up?

24        A.   Exactly that.

25        Q.   Then let's take a look at 2D 00976.

Page 4193

 1        A.   I can see it.

 2        Q.   Very briefly, we'll explain what this is.  This is an excerpt

 3     from a book authored by Dr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic.  Was this gentleman

 4     included in that activity, in your opinion?

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Excuse me for going back to the

 6     former document.  This is a very complex issue, and we might get lost

 7     very easily.

 8             There is a document which seems to address the issue of weapons.

 9     This document comes from Sarajevo, it originates from Sarajevo, and it

10     goes to Mostar.  "CSB Mostar," that's what's written on the document.

11     Now, I'm trying to understand what this document means.  You seem to know

12     what it means, so I'd like you to confirm my conclusions about this

13     document.

14             This document bears the date of the 20th of August, 1991.  At

15     that time, were instructions sent from Sarajevo so that weapons be given

16     to the population?  What's your answer?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document shows that weapons

18     left the central warehouse of the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo,

19     specifies the type of weapons, the quantities of weapons, and states that

20     the Centre for Security in Mostar, or the police in Mostar, is the

21     recipient of the shipment.  As I stated at the beginning of my testimony,

22     this was the only so-called legal or legitimate way for the weapons to

23     come from Sarajevo warehouse to Mostar and then to be distributed to the

24     Muslims and the Croats from Mostar.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Therefore, if I understand

Page 4194

 1     properly, in 1991 in Sarajevo, who was making the decision?  Was it the

 2     president of the Presidency, was it the Presidency itself?  Who decided,

 3     in Sarajevo, to send weapons to you?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, a key role was played by

 5     Minister Delimustafic and his assistant, Stojic, and I believe that

 6     everything was done with the cognisance of the Muslim and Croatian

 7     members of the Sarajevo government, the government in Sarajevo.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This Minister Delimustafic, was

 9     he a Muslim?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And so these weapons were

12     distributed to Muslims and Croats?

13             Very well, thank you.  I'm starting to understand better.  Thank

14     you.

15             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the following document

16     corroborates that.  I wanted to work through those documents together

17     with the witness to make it perfectly clear - we have an expert - excerpt

18     from a book 2D 00976.  This is a book authored by

19     Dr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic entitled "Bosnian Muslim Political Show-down."

20        Q.   You knew Mr. Hadziosmanovic.  Could you tell us first whether he

21     played a role in the distribution of weapons which reached that place in

22     the explained manner?

23        A.   Yes, I personally know Dr. Hadziosmanovic.  I read his book, and

24     he was another person who was included in this project.

25        Q.   Mr. Bozic, on page 66 -- we do not have the time to read through

Page 4195

 1     everything that is stated there, but on page 66, please read the sentence

 2     which starts:

 3             "The police reserve forces, by being activated ..."   This would

 4     be the last page, in the English translation, penultimate paragraph.

 5     Could you read out?

 6        A.   "Reserve force of the police, by being activated, allowed for

 7     large quantities of weapons to be procured, as well as means of

 8     communication which were, per establishment, distributed to the reserve

 9     police force, the Patriotic League and the Croatian defenders.  A large

10     contribution to the organisation of the reserve police force and the

11     Patriotic League and the ranks of Croatian defences was provided by

12     Alija Delimustafic, Avdo Hebib, Slobodan Bozic, Jusuf Pusina,

13     Bruno Stojic, Brana Kvesic, Ivica Lucic, Viktor Stojcic, Zikrija Djonko,

14     Sejo Celebic, Ornica Djukic, Petar Zelenika, and Franjo Doko.  These were

15     Muslim and Croatian officials at the then regional MUP at Mostar and

16     employees of the MUP of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17        Q.   So, Mr. Bozic, this excerpt from this book corroborates that

18     high-ranking Muslim and Croatian officials took part in that, both at MUP

19     Mostar and the MUP of the government of the Republic of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

21        A.   That's correct.  I've already stated this to be so.

22        Q.   Now I'm going to ask you to go through -- briefly through some

23     documents which are supposed to corroborate what you stated.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this seems to be an

25     important document, and I have to ask you an additional question.

Page 4196

 1             This book was written by Dr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic.  I guess he's

 2     a Muslim.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This book was published in

 5     September 2006 in Mostar.  If we are to believe page 3 in the English

 6     translation, we observe that -- I don't need months or years to get

 7     prepared.  You know, it just takes me a few seconds and I understand

 8     everything.  I discover that after the attack in April 1991 in Pitovic

 9     [phoen], a JNA attack, there was a meeting of all the SDA leaders of the

10     Capljina and Jablanica municipalities, et cetera; and then we can see

11     that at the level of the Patriotic League, a force was created.  If you

12     read further, you realise that rifles or weapons were brought by Croat

13     friends from the Citluk Crisis Staff.  You turn over to the next page and

14     you realise that, in fact, Croats and Muslims are very much together,

15     that an entity is being created that there's going to be an independent

16     battalion to be set up with -- two at Tuplina [phoen], and also there's

17     going to be a battalion and the HVO command in Mostar is going to be the

18     Petar Zelenika Battalion.  So just reading these few pages, one gets the

19     impression that back then, Muslims and Croats are united against the

20     Serbs.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could tell you that the Croats

22     and the Muslims were united, standing together then, against anybody who

23     jeopardised their survival there.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, it was important to know

25     that.  Thank you.

Page 4197

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Bozic, let's go back to page 66 of the book.  I'd like to ask

 4     you another question.

 5             Two paragraphs above, mention is made of the government's

 6     decision on activating the reserve police force.  Could you recall, since

 7     you worked at the MUP in Mostar, when was this and what were the reasons

 8     for this happening?

 9        A.   Which part should I read?

10        Q.   No, no, no, I didn't instruct you to read.  I'm explaining that

11     this is the same book, a paragraph which His Honour Antonetti read out to

12     you.  My question is:  After the reservists came to Mostar in 1991, did

13     the MUP of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina take a decision to activate

14     the reserve police force because this is the topic of this book?

15        A.   This was only logical, given the circumstances, the situation,

16     out on the ground.

17        Q.   Thank you very much.  Let's go through some documents which

18     demonstrate your positions and posts that you held from the beginning of

19     your engagement with the HVO and the Department of Defence.  First take a

20     look at the document P 00921.

21        A.   I've found it.

22        Q.   These are minutes from the 15th session of the Croatian Defence

23     Council of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, dated 17th of

24     December.  Please take a look at the last page, which reads -- it's under

25     an asterisk which reads:

Page 4198

 1             "In the Commission for the Relations with UNPROFOR, apart from

 2     Mr. Zuko, S. Bozic and Mr. Sivric are going to be appointed."

 3        A.   Yes, this is what I testified about at the beginning.  This is my

 4     first appointment which I had within the HVO of the HZ-HB.

 5        Q.   Now let's take a look at document P 00924, which follows, and

 6     this is a decision on the establishment of the Commission.

 7        A.   I can see it.  This is exactly what we made reference to just

 8     now.  This decision specifies the jurisdiction of that commission.

 9        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber, and we will discuss that a bit

10     later, what those duties were?  And if necessary, we can read it.

11        A.   That we are setting up cooperation and relations with official

12     representatives, that we're representing the HZ-HB, that we are

13     coordinating the works of other organs and body with the UNPROFOR, and we

14     are doing other tasks and assignments in this area.  I did read this out,

15     but it wasn't quite correct.

16        Q.   All right.  Thank you very much.  That is enough.

17             Perhaps we can look at the next document.  This is 2D 00978.

18        A.   Yes.  This is Mr. Stojic's proposal to appoint me as the deputy

19     head, and it was issued on the 13th of January, 1993.

20        Q.   Let's look at the next page of that document.

21        A.   This is a decision published in the Official Gazette, where it is

22     stated that I am being appointed as deputy head.

23        Q.   All right.  There's no need to look at this document any longer.

24     We can look at the next one.  That's P 0037 -- P 1137.  It is the session

25     of the Croatian Defence Council of the 15th of January, the 18th session

Page 4199

 1     of the council.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

 3     continues] ... understand why Ms. Nozica goes speedily, but I'm looking

 4     at your appointment on the 30th of January, 1993.  You were appointed by

 5     Mr. Stojic.  But on the left-hand side, I can see proposal accepted by

 6     the HVO HZ-HB at 11.00 on the 15th of January.  During a session.  I am

 7     now checking the B/C/S version to see whether that mentions also figures

 8     there.

 9             Witness, does this mean that appointments -- well, with regard to

10     appointments, does it mean that something suggests that someone is

11     appointed, somebody like you, for instance; but it had to be approved by

12     a college of people?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The initiative for any appointment

14     would go from the organ that it referred to --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter cannot hear the witness because

16     of rustling.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but the decision on the

18     appointment was adopted by the HVO HZ-HB.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, this collective body could

20     have said, No, we don't agree; and then Mr. Stojic would have been forced

21     to suggest somebody else ?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is possible, also.

23             MR. KARNAVAS:  Mr. President, one intervention.  P 00924 has been

24     mistranslated, if you see on the very first part, which is:

25             "I hereby pass the following decision," and you see down at the

Page 4200

 1     signature line it would be Jadranko Prlic.  It would give the impression

 2     that it was Prlic's decision that he passed it.  I'm told by my

 3     colleague, Mrs. Ana Tomanovic, that there's no such thing as "I hereby

 4     pass."  It just says, "Pass the following decision," in other words the

 5     collective body passes and not "I hereby," meaning Dr. Jadranko Prlic,

 6     and I think this is an area of contention.

 7             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I must admit that I did not

 8     understand --

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.  It might

10     be good to read the text in Croatian, and then the interpreters would

11     translate it.

12             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but

13     I think that my colleague Mr. Karnavas reacted to P 00924.  This is the

14     decision on the establishment of the Commission or Office of the HVO

15     HZ-HB on liaison with the UNPROFOR.  So this is document P 00924.  I

16     didn't quite understand what the remark was about, but it doesn't matter.

17     The witness can read it out, and the interpreters can then translate it.

18             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Witness, if you would be so kind and just read

19     the first paragraph, the introduction of document 0924.  Some of it seems

20     to be illegible.  Don't worry about that.  Just skip it or say that two

21     or three words, or whatever, are illegible.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before entering the courtroom, I

23     asked the usher if I'm able to use the marker, which helps me to see

24     better, so now I'm going to try to read it better:

25             "On the basis of Article 19 of the statutory decision about the

Page 4201

 1     temporary organisation of executive authority and administration in the

 2     area of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, at the session of the

 3     17th of December, 1992 --"

 4             To tell you the truth, all I can see here are the letters

 5     d-o-n-o-s, so I don't know if it refers to the singular or the plural.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The French booth says "donos,"

 7     "takes or makes the decision to," so there's a decision between "it is

 8     adopted" or, "I adopt."

 9             Witness, if we understand this, Mr. Prlic decided to appoint

10     three individuals, including you, number 2, to his commission, but does

11     this decision have to be adopted, endorsed, by the collective body during

12     this session that took place on the 17th of December, 1992?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the preamble of the decision,

14     I can see the word "session of the 17th of December, 1992."

15             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I can assist the Trial Chamber and

16     the witness.  We have already looked at this transcript from the meeting,

17     and this is P 00921; and it can be seen that the decision was adopted at

18     the meeting of the HVO HZ-HB.  Is there anything that is disputable

19     still?

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, look, we're going to shed

21     some light on this thanks to you, Witness.

22             When you were appointed, was your appointment the outcome of the

23     power invested in one single individual or in a collective body?  This is

24     a very clear question, you see.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm going to answer very clearly.

Page 4202

 1             These decisions, this one and any other decision, is adopted by

 2     the collective body, and it is signed by the person who is the president

 3     of that collective body.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We need to avoid any mistake in

 5     interpretation.  You said that the decision was made by a collective

 6     body, and it was signed by the person presiding over the collective body.

 7     At least that has the merit of being clear.  You are a lawyer.  You were

 8     a prosecutor and a judge.  Therefore, what you say can be understood.

 9             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10             I would just like to go back for a moment to document 2D 00978.

11     It says here:  "Proposal for appointment," signed by Mr. Stojic.

12        Q.   And you, Witness, explained that Mr. Stojic proposed that and

13     that the HVO HZ-HB adopted that decision.  Did I understand you

14     correctly?

15        A.   Yes, that is exactly what I said.

16        Q.   Let's look how this decision was adopted by the HVO HZ-HB.  Let's

17     look at P 1137, and we can look at a paragraph marked number 7.  So, as I

18     said, this is the 18th session of the Croatian Defence Council.  Under 7,

19     it says:

20             "Upon the proposal of the implementation of the law on the legal

21     profession on the territory HZ-HB during the war."

22             Mr. Bozic, I'm going to ask you to look at the next document,

23     P 69.  This is a document of the 1st of December, 1993, and it is the

24     decision appointing you as the head of the Office for Cooperation with

25     UNPROFOR.

Page 4203

 1        A.   Yes, that is the decision on my appointment which I referred to

 2     at the beginning when I spoke about why I continued to work after

 3     Mr. Stojic had left the Defence Department, with the remark that I was

 4     still continuing to work on my duties at the Personnel Administration.

 5        Q.   All right.  Let's look at the next document, P 770 -- 7790.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] P 6696 might be interesting.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  6996, interpreter's correction and apologies.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There it is.

 9             This is a document appointing you to the position of the chief of

10     the Cooperation Office with the UNPROFOR, so this is important.  In the

11     preamble, it can be seen that, in fact, it's not Mr. Prlic who appointed

12     you.  It was the government, the HR-HB government.  Look at the preamble.

13     Is that what the preamble says?  Apparently it was discussed by the

14     government on the 1st of December, 1993.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is what I said about the

16     previous appointment.  All appointments, as I said, are made at the

17     sessions of the HVO HZ-HB, and now at the government meetings of the

18     Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, and then the actual decisions on the

19     appointment itself is signed by Mr. Prlic.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are we to understand that it

21     was Mr. Prlic who drafted the text or just signed it to authenticate the

22     appointment decided upon by the government?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree, yes, it's part of his

24     authority, he's at the head of that body, but the actual decision is made

25     by the collective body.

Page 4204

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   The next document is P 07790, where you are being -- actually,

 4     the decision on the establishment of the Committee for Cooperation with

 5     the United Nations is adopted.  You're one of the members.  Can you

 6     please tell us whether you, as a member of this committee, and while

 7     working in it, did it have any important activities in 1994?

 8        A.   Well, perhaps -- no, as far as I can remember, we had two or

 9     three meetings.  That's what I remember attending.

10        Q.   Let's look at the next document.  This is 2D 1006.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   This is a pass granting the transport of material and equipment.

13     It's dated the 30th of June, 1992, and it's signed by assistant to the

14     commander for logistics, Bruno Stojic.  Is this absolutely in accordance

15     with what you said, Mr. Bozic, that before being appointed as the head of

16     the Defence Department, Mr. Stojic worked as assistant to the commander

17     for logistics at the Main Staff?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Can you please look at the next document.  This is document

20     P 00297.  And this is an appointment of Mr. Stojic as head of the Defence

21     Department?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Let's look at the next document.  This is P 006583.  And this is

24     a press release dated the 10th of November, 1993, referring to members of

25     the -- members of government of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna.

Page 4205

 1        A.   This is what I said at the beginning, from which -- and then from

 2     that point in time Mr. Stojic no longer came to the Defence Department,

 3     and about the way he found out about this appointment.

 4        Q.   All right.  And the last document in this first part, this is

 5     2D 00416.  It's a protocol signed by Mr. Jukic and by Mr. Bruno Stojic

 6     five days after this press release.

 7        A.   I said at the beginning that I was not present at the signing and

 8     I did not see Mr. Stojic then.  This is the first time that I am seeing

 9     the protocol, but it does confirm that it was the protocol about the

10     hand-over of duty between Mr. Jukic and Mr. Stojic.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bozic.  You've already said at the beginning of

12     your testimony that on arrival at the Defence Department, you took part

13     in the drafting of some establishment documents?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   I'm now going to ask you specifically if in any way you

16     participated in the adoption of regulations on the armed forces of the

17     HZ-HB, adopted at the Presidency meeting of the 3rd of July, 1992.

18        A.   No, because I came to the department in September 1992.

19        Q.   You also said that you participated in the drafting of a revised

20     text about the armed forces of the --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the date.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes, there was a consolidated

23     text, pursuant to a section which was actually just added on, and there

24     was some very minor changes in terms of the previously-adopted documents.

25             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

Page 4206

 1        Q.   Well, let us now prepare for the next set of documents by saying

 2     that after the president of the HZ-HB, in September 1992, decided --

 3     adopted a decision on establishing the Defence Department, and he

 4     referred to the sections which would be part of it and what their duties

 5     would be, and you worked on a document which was a document of the

 6     Defence Department.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Can you please tell us which parts of the documents you actually

 9     worked on?

10        A.   You are talking about the regulations of the armed forces?

11        Q.   No, I'm talking about the organisational documents of the

12     Defence Department.

13        A.   I said in the beginning that I worked on the decision about the

14     establishment of the Defence Department pursuant to a decision on the

15     basic founding, which was adopted by Mr. Boban.

16        Q.   Sir, let us look at the following documents.  These are documents

17     P 00289.  It's a regulation on the armed forces of the Croatian Community

18     of Herceg-Bosna.  I'm going to ask you to look at Article 10 of this

19     rule, and if you can tell me, pursuant to this Article 10, paragraph 1,

20     the duties of the Defence Department were referred to.

21        A.   It says here that the Defence Department performs professional

22     and administrative assignments from defence and security, and then it

23     refers to 25 specific tasks.

24        Q.   According to your understanding, do these 25 points represent the

25     professional and administrative tasks in the domain of defence and

Page 4207

 1     protection?

 2        A.   Yes, I believe so.

 3        Q.   Let us now look at document 2D 01262.  These are minutes from the

 4     fifth session of the Presidency of the Croatian Community of

 5     Herceg-Bosna.  You were not present at this session?

 6        A.   No.  You can see that the Defence Department was represented by

 7     Mr. Bozo Rajic.

 8        Q.   Now I'm going to look at paragraph 17 or item 17 of the agenda

 9     where it says that the regulations on the armed forces was adopted at

10     this meeting.

11        A.   Yes, the proposals were adopted for the amendment and changes of

12     these regulations, and Mr. Stojic discusses this -- I'm sorry, Mr. Buntic

13     talks about the adoption of this regulation, describing that the

14     amendments specifically refer to mobilisation, which were not previously

15     discussed.

16        Q.   You're talking about comments on page 17; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   This is page 14 in the Croatian and 16 in the English?

19        A.   No.  On my copy, it is page 15.

20        Q.   It begins, actually, on page 14; am I correct?

21        A.   Yes, but what I read about Mr. Buntic and the regulation of armed

22     forces was on the 15th.

23        Q.   Okay.  So we can conclude that the regulation on armed forces was

24     adopted on that session.  Previously we heard that you had taken part in

25     drafting it with lawyers from the Justice Department, and now let's take

Page 4208

 1     a look at Article 10 in that regulation.  Could you tell the Chamber

 2     whether this article remained unchanged?

 3        A.   You mean the Official Gazette?

 4        Q.   I apologise, apologise.  It's P 00588, document P 00588,

 5     regulation on the armed forces, my mistake, dated 17th October 1993.

 6        A.   Which page, please?

 7        Q.   Page 7.  There are some parts which do not refer to the

 8     situation.

 9        A.   I find it --

10        Q.   Fine.  Is that the regulation?

11        A.   This is the consolidated version of the regulation with the

12     supplements and amendments that we discussed.

13        Q.   Please find for me Article 10.

14        A.   I've found it.

15        Q.   Could you tell the Chamber whether it was amended or supplemented

16     compared to the previous version, and does it specify the tasks of the

17     Defence Department?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Mr. Bozic, now I'm going to ask you, since you said that you took

20     part in drafting the consolidated version, to explain to the Chamber

21     Article 34.  What was the proposal that came from you to the Presidency,

22     and whether it remained intact in the version that we can see here?

23        A.   When I was comparing the two, there is only one change, saying

24     that certain appointments, instead of HVO HZ-HB, is done by head of

25     department.  But taking a look at the integral text of Article 34,

Page 4209

 1     obviously errors occurred when the Official Gazette was printed.  It

 2     would only be logical, and it's clear when taking a look at the previous

 3     version of that article, that the original text should read:

 4             "Commanders of the armed forces shall be appointed and relieved

 5     by ...," and then, colon:  "President of the HZ-HB, commanders of --"

 6     full stop.  "Commanders of brigades and high-ranking officers," comma,

 7     not colon but comma, "head of the Defence Department and commanders

 8     authorised to do so by him.  Other officers and commanders, junior

 9     officers and military personnel ...," et cetera, et cetera.

10             So the problem that arises is the part which discusses commanders

11     of brigades and high-ranking officers.  It shouldn't contain a comma, but

12     a full stop, and the comma should be after the "President of HZ-HB," and

13     "the commanders appointed by him," there should be a comma, and to be

14     followed by "other officers and commanders, junior officers, and military

15     personnel shall also be appointed to posts of officers, junior officers

16     in the armed forces."

17        Q.   Mr. Bozic, if I understand you correctly, the president of the

18     HZ-HB, as you construed it, appoints commanders of brigades and

19     high-ranking officers; am I correct?

20        A.   Yes, that's correct, and this is where the full stop should be.

21        Q.   And then head of the Defence Department and officers --

22        A.   I apologise.

23        Q.   Head of Defence Department and commanders authorised by him will

24     appoint other officers, commanders, junior officers?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 4210

 1        Q.   Mr. Bozic, could you tell us how this mistake occurred?  As I

 2     understood you, you prepared a consolidated, clear version of the text

 3     and sent it for approval to the Presidency.  Could you -- and then these

 4     mistakes occurred.  Can you explain how?

 5        A.   Well, at that time we did not have any floppy discs or

 6     information communication technology and equipment that we have today.

 7     Our consolidated draft was written on an electric typewriter, and, as

 8     such, it went to the printing shop.  And then at the print shop, they had

 9     to transcribe that into their system, and I'm sure that the preparation

10     for printing was when those mistakes occurred.  And this can be verified

11     if you take a look at the provision of Article 34 in the basic regulation

12     on armed forces and compare it to this one.

13        Q.   When you say "basic regulation," you're referring to the

14     July 7th 1992 regulation?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   That's P 00789; isn't that correct?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   Now I'm going to ask you, furthermore:  Mr. Bozic, did the

19     Personnel Administration, which was part of your civilian sector, did

20     they work on preparing on documents for the appointment and removal of

21     commanders in the armed forces?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Who were appointed and dismissed by Mr. Stojic?

24        A.   Yes, this was done by us.

25        Q.   Did he perform the appointments and removals in the way that you

Page 4211

 1     described, in the way that you interpreted the provision of Article 34?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   Please take a look at the provision of Article 30 of this

 4     regulation, and then we will leave it be.

 5             In Article 30:  "In the performance of tasks within his remit,

 6     commander in chief of the armed forces adopts directives, orders

 7     decisions."

 8             What we're interested in is paragraph 2:  "Supreme commander of

 9     the armed forces may delegate certain tasks of leading and commanding the

10     armed forces to the head of the Defence Department."

11             So very specifically, I'm asking you this:  Did you see a single

12     document where the president of the HZ-HB delegate to the head of Defence

13     Department any part of his tasks relating to the use of armed forces?

14        A.   I've never seen a single one.

15        Q.   Have you seen any document signed by Mr. Stojic which, by its

16     content, would represent the commanding of armed forces or the use of

17     armed forces?

18        A.   I've never seen a single one.

19        Q.   Mr. Bozic, let's take a look at document P 00586.  Could you

20     explain to the Chamber, please, what it's all about?

21        A.   This is a decision on the basis of the organisation of the

22     Defence Department of the Croatian Defence Council of the

23     Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, adopted on the 17th of October, 1992

24     by Mr. Mate Boban.

25        Q.   Mr. Bozic, when it was adopted, you had occasion to read it?

Page 4212

 1        A.   That's correct, because I worked together with my colleagues, on

 2     the basis of this decision, on the decision of the establishment and

 3     structure of the Defence Department.

 4        Q.   What is in paragraph 1 is not contentious, but I would like to

 5     mind your memory with respect to paragraph 2.  It reads attached to the

 6     head are a military council.  Do you recall this military council being

 7     established at any point in time?

 8        A.   No, never.

 9        Q.   What about the chief inspectorate?

10        A.   Never.

11        Q.   In administrative and technical terms, the head will be assisted

12     by the cabinet of the head and general affairs and information unit as a

13     separate organisational unit.  Please, Mr. Bozic, tell us, was there any

14     cabinet of the head of department?

15        A.   No, there was no cabinet.  We wanted to establish one, but given

16     the problems in terms of employing the right people, it was never

17     established.

18        Q.   Was there any general affairs and information system

19     department -- office?

20        A.   No, there was one person who dealt with the computer

21     introduction, the information technology, not information system.  It was

22     being done in 1993.

23        Q.   There is a deputy to the head, who is in charge of the civilian

24     sector directly, which contains organisational units.  Mr. Bozic, in

25     January 1993, were you appointed to that position of deputy?

Page 4213

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   Could you please tell us, since we have listed administrations

 3     within the civilian sector -- I will be specific.  The Administration for

 4     Mobilisation and Military Preparation, when did it start working?

 5        A.   No, it wasn't there at the beginning.  It started work at the

 6     beginning of June 1993, when Mr. Dobroslav Barbaric was appointed to that

 7     administration.

 8        Q.   What about the civilian protection headquarters; was it ever

 9     established?

10        A.   No, never.

11        Q.   Never?

12        A.   There were discussions whether civilian protection or civilian

13     defence should be under the Ministry of the Interior.

14        Q.   What about the Administration for Budget or Budgeting?

15        A.   It was never established.

16        Q.   What about the Administration for Legal Affairs?

17        A.   Never.

18        Q.   Personnel Administration?

19        A.   Mr. Stojic and I found that administration when we arrived.  It

20     was established in May 1992.  We took the personnel from the Personnel

21     Administration when the Defence Department started working.

22        Q.   We will come to the reports of work for 1992-1993.  We will be

23     able to read what all the administrations subordinated to you did.

24             Mr. Bozic, let's take a look at the next document, 2D 00567.

25     Could you please explain --

Page 4214

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'd like to put an

 2     administrative question to you.

 3             Several of us in this courtroom took part in a lot of meetings in

 4     the past.  We know how things work.  As far as you can remember, did

 5     Mr. Stojic have meetings with the various people, as mentioned in the

 6     document, as a deputy?  Were there meetings which you attended?  Of

 7     course, there were, but did you organise meetings to take stock of the

 8     situation with the various people in charge?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no specific or special

10     meetings with heads of administrations.  We had a body which we called a

11     college, attended by assistant ministers, representatives of the

12     Main Staff, I myself, and heads of certain administrations.

13             Your Honours, as you had occasion to see and as I said, out of

14     all the administrations listed in this regulation, the only one which

15     functioned when this was established was the Personnel Administration,

16     performing tasks which do not fall within the remit of a typical

17     personnel administration, but rather working on welfare issues.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I got you right, within his

19     department or ministry, Mr. Stojic was not trying to convene meetings

20     with the various people in charge to address problems or to make

21     decisions or to implement the policy which was outlined by the

22     government.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to be as precise in my

24     answer as possible.  As far as the administrations made reference to

25     here, no, there were none; but we had an informal body which we called a

Page 4215

 1     college, attended by assistants to Mr. Stojic, a representative of the

 2     Main Staff, heads of certain administrations, and I, as the deputy.  As

 3     far as administrations referred to right now, it was impossible to meet

 4     them because they were never established.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This college you're talking

 6     about, where representatives from the headquarters were, during the

 7     meetings of this college were you talking about the military situation?

 8     Did you explain to everybody that, and this is an example I'm taking,

 9     that the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was carrying out a breakthrough

10     and that it was going to have consequences, in terms of refugees, for

11     instance, that, We had to try and oppose such a breakthrough using

12     weapons and deploying military units.  Is that the kind of things you

13     were talking about, or were you talking about something different?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we never discussed, at our

15     college meeting, military operations that the army was taking or was

16     going to undertake, but we discussed administrative and expert issues, we

17     discussed matters of structure or organisation within the department, or

18     documents and acts we were supposed to forward to our superiors.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One technical question.  You

20     had a phone?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is it a single-line telephone

23     or was it a telephone with several keys, and by pressing one key, for

24     instance, you could have direct access to General Petkovic?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there was no such

Page 4216

 1     communication.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Did you have a

 3     direct line with Mr. Boban?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think no.  I think that the

 5     communications system may seem strange to you today, but we had a system

 6     of communications which was barely functional.  It was very difficult to

 7     maintain it and to keep its functionality.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

 9             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it would be useful for

10     me to know when I was supposed to finish.  I hope --

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Maybe we could have the break

12     now, since it's 25 to 6.00.  We'll have a 25-minute break -- 20-minute

13     break.

14                           --- Recess taken at 5.38 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may proceed, Ms. Nozica.

17             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Bozic, I'm going to ask you to look at the next document,

19     2D 00567.  And can you explain to the Trial Chamber what sort of a

20     document this is?

21        A.   This is a decision on the basic principles of organisation of the

22     Defence Department adopted by Mr. Mate Boban, and as the word says, it

23     talks about the principles of the organisation of that department, what

24     that should be.

25        Q.   Mr. Bozic, I would like -- this is something that we already

Page 4217

 1     discussed, this decision.  This P 00586.  Let's look at this other

 2     document, and that is 00567.

 3        A.   I'm sorry, this is my mistake.  This is a decision on the

 4     internal organisation of the Defence Department.  I was talking about the

 5     wrong document.  I said that that was practically the first document that

 6     I worked on when I came to the department, and the decision regulates the

 7     internal organisation within the actual Defence Department.

 8        Q.   Mr. Bozic, in paragraph 2, item 2 of this document, it says --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please wait until the

10     interpreters see on the screen where she's reading from.

11             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] "Chief of administration for the

12     defence affairs and mobilisation, budget administration, civilian

13     protection, staff legal affairs administration, personnel administration,

14     and welfare administration manage the work of those administrations and

15     answer for their work to the deputy head."

16        A.   Yes.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   It says in this decision that a special organisation was drafted

20     for the Main Staff and that is an integral part of this decision.

21     Mr. Bozic, did you work, first of all, on that organisation?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Oh, I'm sorry.  And did you ever see that structure?

24        A.   No, I didn't work on the organisation of the Main Staff, and I

25     never saw it, because the Main Staff had its own administration for

Page 4218

 1     organisation within the Main Staff.

 2             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  I apologise to counsel for

 3     the interruption.  I thought I heard an intervention by the interpreters,

 4     asking for a certain answer to be repeated, but perhaps I was the only

 5     one.  Thank you.

 6             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you to my learn

 7     friend Mr. Scott.  You are not the only one, actually.  I was just told

 8     the same by Mr. Khan.

 9        Q.   So when I asked you if you -- when I quoted paragraph 2, if these

10     jobs for which these personnel persons were responsible to the deputy

11     head, can you please tell us what you answered?

12        A.   Yes, those are these jobs, and it's the same thing that I talked

13     about that is contained in the decision on the basic organisation, and

14     these heads were response -- chiefs were responsible to me as the deputy

15     head of the Defence Department.

16        Q.   I asked you if you had worked on the structure and organisation

17     of the Main Staff, and you answered that you didn't, and my second

18     question was whether you saw that document before.

19        A.   No, I didn't.

20        Q.   Mr. Bozic, let us now move to the next decision, and that is

21     P 2477.  It's a decision.  Can you explain what this is about?

22        A.   This decision was adopted in May 1993, and what particularly it

23     refers to this part of the civilian sector that I was heading is that

24     here a new special administration is being introduced, an administration

25     which did exist before, but it was within the administration, and it was

Page 4219

 1     working on the duties that I had already described.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Bozic, can you now tell us -- we've seen the

 3     internal organisation of the Defence Department in the previous

 4     documents.  Which documents regulated the position of the Defence

 5     Department within the HVO HZ-HB?

 6        A.   This was a statutory decision, so it was regulated by a

 7     basic-founding document.

 8        Q.   Mr. Bozic, can we look at that decision?  This is P 00303.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   That is a decision which you say regulates the decision of the

11     Defence Department.  Was there any other decision that was adopted that

12     was more specific about the duties and assignments of the

13     Defence Department within the HVO HZ-HB?

14        A.   All right.  As a lawyer, I must say that this is the basic act,

15     and everything else that arises from that was adopted pursuant to this

16     basic document.  More or less, if we were to say that that would be some

17     sort of sub-regulation, and within that structure, the commission was

18     also working of the HVO HZ-HB.

19        Q.   Can you look in your binder at 1D 00001.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Can you please look at Article 9.  Does Article 9 actually refer

22     to the assignments that were in the jurisdiction of the Defence

23     Department?

24             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Counsel, I think you have made a mistake when

25     you called the number.  You called it, as it is here, "1D 0001," but it

Page 4220

 1     is 1D 00101, I suppose.

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can see it on the

 3     screen, so evidently I have called the proper document, and that is

 4     00001, four zeros, 1.

 5             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  Then the mistake seems to be in the

 6     binder.  Okay, it's clear.

 7             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Okay, it's clear.  Your D's look like an O very

 9     often, and you forgot the four O's, which is quite a lot to forget even

10     if it's only O's.  That's why I was misled.  I'm sorry.

11             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.  I am

12     going to warn my case manager to write more clearly so that we avoid

13     confusion in the future.

14        Q.   Have you found it, Mr. Bozic?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   In Article 9, I repeat my question:  Are the duties of the

17     Defence Department stated, or the duties that it should perform, because

18     this was adopted on the 15th of May, 1992?  So my question would be:  Are

19     these those assignments that the Defence Department actually executed?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And my next question is whether these are the same duties which

22     are in the regulations on the armed forces in Article 10, which are

23     supposed to be jobs under the jurisdiction of the Defence Department?

24        A.   Well, I don't want to compare the two texts right now, but in

25     principle I can reply that the two texts have more or less the same

Page 4221

 1     content.

 2        Q.   I'm going to change my topics, which would generally be the

 3     reports about the work or the work programme drafted by the Defence

 4     Department.  First of all, I'm going to ask you if you recall that the

 5     Defence Department made any kind of proposal for a work programme or a

 6     programme of work.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And how was this work programme drafted?

 9        A.   In the technical sense, all the sectors would submit their

10     programmes of work, and then there would always in the report be a

11     section which had to do with the Main Staff and the Information Service.

12     There would be a separate section for that.  And then when all these

13     proposals from the sectors were received about their work programmes,

14     then we would make a summary which would be sent to the HVO HZ-HB.

15        Q.   Mr. Bozic, can you please tell me how the reports on the Defence

16     Department's work were drafted?

17        A.   In the same way, when we would receive the reports on the work of

18     each individual sector, who did what, then on the basis of their reports

19     and -- we would make a summary report that would be submitted to the HVO

20     HZ-HB.

21        Q.   Can you remember, please, what you specifically did, in terms of

22     these reports?  Did you have to do something in the sector where you were

23     or who, in the end, made this summary of all the reports from all the

24     administrations?

25        A.   In the beginning, in my civilian sector, we only had the

Page 4222

 1     Personnel Administration, so then they would draft their report, which

 2     would then be incorporated into a joint Defence Department report.  And

 3     as I said at the beginning, the president -- the Cabinet of President

 4     Stojic [as interpreted] was not working, so that is something that I

 5     would actually work on with my colleagues from the

 6     Personnel Administration.

 7        Q.   Mr. Bozic, you said that these reports were submitted to the HVO

 8     HZ-HB.  Were you ever present at a government session or actually at the

 9     HVO HZ-HB when these reports were adopted?

10        A.   Yes, I think that I did attend some of these sessions.

11        Q.   According to your recollection, were these proposals discussed?

12        A.   Yes, the submitted reports were discussed in the same way as any

13     other item on the agenda for the meeting.

14        Q.   I would now like you to look at some documents, Mr. Bozic.  The

15     first document would be P 48900 -- P 04890.

16        A.   I see it.

17        Q.   All right.  Can you please tell me what this document is about?

18        A.   This is -- these are the minutes of a meeting of the HVO HZ-HB

19     which was held on the 8th of September, 1992.

20        Q.   Can you look at item 7, whether there is any reference to the

21     programme of work here in this paragraph?  Behind or after the agenda,

22     there is Article 7.  Do you see it?

23        A.   Yes.  It says, in the agenda, basic elements for drafting a HVO

24     plan of work -- plan of work of the HVO, the departments and the

25     sections.

Page 4223

 1        Q.   Mr. Bozic, can we look at the next document.  That should be

 2     document 1D 00110.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Can you please tell me what sort of a document this is?

 5        A.   This is the standing orders of the HVO of the Croatian Community

 6     of Herceg-Bosna which regulates its work.

 7        Q.   Can you please look at Article 8 of this document and tell us

 8     whether it was established -- in what manner are the programmes of work

 9     drafted?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   All right, thank you very much.  Let's look at the next document,

12     Mr. Bozic, and that is document P 00518.

13        A.   Yes.

14             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me, Ms. Nozica.  If I look at page 75,

15     line 10 to 13, your question ends with:

16             "In what manner are the programmes of work drafted?"

17             And the answer is:  "Yes."

18             That is a bit surprising.

19             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm going to put that

20     question again.

21        Q.   In what way were the programmes of work drafted?  Evidently, we

22     have some sort of mistake here, either in my question or in your answer.

23     I asked you in what manner were the programmes of work drafted.  Listen

24     to my question first.

25             How were the proposals of the programme for work drafted in the

Page 4224

 1     Defence Department?

 2        A.   I said that it was done in the way that each sector would make

 3     their own proposal of work, and that would be submitted to the head.  And

 4     after receiving all the proposals, a summary proposal would be made.

 5     That would be a joint proposal of the work, which would then be submitted

 6     to the HVO HZ-HB for further procedure.

 7        Q.   I'm going to ask you now to look at document 1D 00110.  I'm going

 8     to put a precise question to you.  Was there a duty on the part of the

 9     Defence Department to draft programmes of work pursuant to this article?

10        A.   Yes, I already answered that question.  I think that there was

11     some problem in the interpretation, because my answer did refer to this

12     specific Article 28 that you put your question on.

13        Q.   Let's look at document P 00518.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   This is a proposal of the work programme until the end of 1992.

16     Mr. Bozic, do you recall whether this is one of those documents that were

17     drafted in the Defence Department?

18        A.   Yes.  This is practically our first obligation that has to do

19     with the previous HVO HZ-HB session that we looked at before, so we are

20     submitting a report on the implemented activities pursuant to meetings

21     from the session of the 7th of September, 1992.

22        Q.   Mr. Bozic, can we now look at document P 00518.  Actually, it's a

23     document that we were already looking at.  Can you please look at

24     document P 00128?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4225

 1        Q.   Can you tell us what this is about?  Can you remember what this

 2     is about?

 3        A.   This is a report on the work of -- during 1992 that we did, and

 4     we submitted it to the HVO HZ-HB.

 5        Q.   And now let's look at page 6 in English and Croatian, just

 6     briefly.  And can you please tell us whether those parts that you drafted

 7     are cited in the report?  Actually, those parts that were subordinated to

 8     you, the Personnel Administration, is being referred to here, and it is

 9     discussed here what the administration -- Personnel Administration did in

10     that period.

11        A.   Can you please repeat the page number again?

12        Q.   Yes.  It was page 6.

13        A.   It reads, in compliance with what I said, to determine all

14     participants in the homeland war, killed and missing persons, preparation

15     of forms, distribution to municipal headquarters, who were supposed to

16     provide us with feedback.  And since this report was submitted in March,

17     some IT equipment is being introduced to process such data.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you take a look at the next document.  These are

19     exhibits, and we've seen this document on a number of occasions, 1D 1607.

20     Mr. Bozic, tell me, have you found it?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You were present at the 37th session of the HVO?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   For the purposes of this part of your examination in chief, could

25     you tell us in what capacity did you attend sessions of the HVO HZ-HB?

Page 4226

 1        A.   Yes, I did attend certain sessions in the absence of Mr. Stojic.

 2     At some sessions, I was a rapporteur when it concerned documents that I

 3     personally worked on, together with my colleagues, and which were

 4     submitted to be adopted by the session of the HVO HZ-HB, but I was never

 5     a member of the HVO HZ-HB.  I attended meetings in my capacity as deputy

 6     of Mr. Stojic, deputy head of the Defence Department.

 7        Q.   Could you take a look at item 15 of this -- of the minutes of the

 8     meeting of the HVO HZ-HB, dated 5th of May, 1993.

 9        A.   I can see it.

10        Q.   In Article 15, delegrations [as interpreted] on the report of the

11     work for 1992, and on the last page at 15, could you tell us whether this

12     report was adopted at this session?

13        A.   Yes, it was.

14        Q.   Mr. Bozic, it says here:

15             "After considering all -- situation in all spheres of life in the

16     territory and separate reports on the work and activities of the bodies

17     and services of the HVO HZ-HB, a decision was unanimously adopted to

18     accept the report on the work of the HVO HZ-HB for 1992."

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   Mr. Bozic, since those minutes are scarce, in terms of

21     information, was this so, as reflected in the minutes, relying on your

22     memory; so whether first the reports were individually presented and then

23     debated and then adopted unanimously, as it says here?

24        A.   In my previous statements during my testimony, I discussed this

25     very matter.  First, discussion was held on all matters which were

Page 4227

 1     included as items of the agenda, and these minutes are very rough because

 2     there were -- there was no recording -- audio- or video-recording of the

 3     proceedings, neither was there was telegramic [as interpreted]

 4     transcripts.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I would like you to take a look at 2D 1018.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Mr. Bozic, could you tell me, please, what this is about, and who

 8     signed it on behalf of Mr. Stojic?  We're going to encounter similar

 9     documents, so let's make this clear.

10        A.   I signed it on behalf of Mr. Stojic, and it clearly states that

11     this falls within the scope of duties of all sectors of the Defence

12     Department and the Main Staff, pursuant to the 5th of May [as

13     interpreted] session, that a report be prepared for the period -- the

14     period for January and June 1993.  All heads of sectors should prepare

15     their reports of their sector.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, the date was the 5th

17     of July, 1993, not 5th of May.

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   So let's take a look at this report for January and June of 1993.

20     This is document P 49 -- P 4699.  Take a look at page 14, and page 9 in

21     the English version.  The heading is "Personnel Administration."  Could

22     you briefly tell us about the characteristics for the latter part of the

23     year from June to December?

24        A.   We managed to equip ourselves, in terms of technical equipment,

25     to maintain the registers, collect data for professional units, and for

Page 4228

 1     employees of the Department of Defence and Main Staff, in the sections

 2     and offices.  Practically, we started working on preparations to issue ID

 3     cards for members of the HVO.

 4        Q.   Following from this report, what would be concluded is they had

 5     already been produced, the ID cards.  Please take a look at page 16, the

 6     Administration for Mobilisation and Conscription.  This is one of the

 7     administrations that was subordinated to you; isn't that correct?

 8        A.   That's correct, yes, this is what I said.  The Administration for

 9     Conscription and Mobilisation only started working at the beginning of

10     June 1993, when Mr. Dobroslav Barbaric was appointed as head of that

11     administration.  And what is stated here is from the 1st of June, 1993,

12     from when the chief of administration was appointed initially, the

13     administration performed the following tasks.

14        Q.   Now please take a look at the next document, P 4008.

15        A.   In this binder, there is no document.

16        Q.   Then you should take the other binder.  My apologies.

17        A.   Yes, I can see it, the first document.

18        Q.   Forty-ninth session of the HVO, dated 7th of August, 1993.  You

19     attended that session again.  Mr. Bozic, if I'm right, it would follow

20     that if you were in charge of an organisational sector whose report is

21     presented, then you would go there to the session?

22        A.   Yes, I sometimes acted as a rapporteur.  Sometimes I stood in for

23     Mr. Stojic.

24        Q.   Then we are going to take a look further in the text, when the

25     reports on January to June of 1993 are discussed.

Page 4229

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Can you take a look at the paragraph at 3 and tell us what it is

 3     all about?

 4        A.   What is discussed are reports of the Defence Department and other

 5     departments.  It is noted here that the Defence Department report has

 6     been adopted, with a note that an additional analysis of the state of

 7     affairs was supposed to be submitted.

 8        Q.   Can you recall what was this all about?

 9        A.   Well, I can't remember, but what is demonstrable from this is

10     that a debate was held on the report, remarks were made by members of the

11     HVO HZ-HB to provide supplementary information, but I don't know really

12     what they were.

13        Q.   I'm referring to His Honour Antonetti's question about how

14     decisions were taken.  Please, under item C, could you tell us what is

15     said in the report about the Justice Department?

16        A.   The report of the Justice and Administration Department of the

17     HVO HZ-HB was rejected.

18        Q.   You do recall what happened?

19        A.   I can't remember the details, but the fact that the department's

20     report was rejected or adopted, there must have been reasons for that.

21        Q.   I'm not going to dwell on that.  Please take a look at the next

22     document, P 07419.  It's a report of work of the HVO for July-December

23     1993.  It's a report which partly covers the period when Mr. Stojic was

24     head of the Defence Department.  Please take a look at the text which

25     makes mention of the Personnel Administration, Roman numeral II.  That's

Page 4230

 1     the fourth page.  It is stated here expressly that for personnel affairs,

 2     that military ID cards were prepared within the remit of the Personnel

 3     Administration.  Could you tell us something more about this period of

 4     work?

 5        A.   What is indicated here, very briefly, the tasks of the Personnel

 6     Administration.  A problem that I referred to on several occasions today

 7     is highlighted, and that is shortage of personnel, and they also

 8     discussed what should be prepared for the forthcoming period.

 9             What I'd like to highlight and stress is what I already said.

10     The Administration for Welfare, which was part of my civilian sector

11     within the Defence Department, started its work, started being organised,

12     and started performing their works depending on the scope of their -- or

13     terms of their reference.

14        Q.   I'm going to show you several documents with respect to the

15     Personnel Administration.  I'm not going to ask you about the Welfare

16     Administration, because the next witness is supposed to deal with that.

17     But with respect to the Personnel Administration, please take a look at

18     document 2D 01458.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   You made reference to this document.  Please explain the Bench

21     what it's all about.

22        A.   As I already stated, the Personnel Administration was established

23     on the 8th of May, 1992, almost four months before the Defence Department

24     was established.

25        Q.   Please take a look at the next document in the binder, 2D 01459.

Page 4231

 1     We already discussed this document very briefly.  Could you please

 2     explain what it's all about?

 3        A.   The appointment of Mr. Dobroslav Barbaric as chief of the

 4     Conscription and Mobilisation Administration.

 5        Q.   What was -- please explain briefly to the Bench what was the task

 6     of the Personnel Administration when such documents were drafted and

 7     adopted.

 8        A.   Practically, the Personnel Administration drafted all appointment

 9     and dismissal documents which were later on signed by Head Stojic.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Let's take a look at the next document in your

11     binder, 2D 02011.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Could you explain the Bench, please, what this document is about?

14        A.   This is a list of eight persons who, so to speak, were part of

15     the office of Head Stojic, headed by me.  We see two military policemen,

16     two secretaries, one clerk, et cetera.

17        Q.   I heard you say "eight."

18        A.   Oh, I apologise.  Seven.  My mistake.  Seven persons.

19        Q.   Mr. Bozic, this is a payroll list for December 1992?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Asked by me previously about the number of people working at the

22     Cabinet of the head of department --

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   -- were these the persons and number of persons that you

25     specified earlier?

Page 4232

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Let's take a look at the next document, 2D 02014.

 3        A.   I can see it.

 4        Q.   What is it, please?

 5        A.   A payroll -- payroll list for November 1992, referring to persons

 6     employed by the Personnel Administration.

 7        Q.   When you take a look at this list, does it jog your memory as to

 8     which person of these was a jurist or a lawyer who helped you?

 9        A.   I'm sure that Gordan Zadro was a lawyer.  I'm not sure about

10     Mr. Jozo Palac [phoen].  And for the others, I'm 100 percent sure that

11     they were not lawyers.

12        Q.   After this payroll list for November, maybe we could take a look

13     at another document which may be interesting, and that's 2D 04016, sorry.

14     2D 04016.  The next one should be 2D 04016.  Could you please tell the

15     Bench what this document is about?

16        A.   This is a list of personnel who worked on -- as security

17     employees of the Defence Department.

18        Q.   Very soon I'm going to ask you about the ethnic structure of the

19     HVO, but let's look at December 1992.  The person under the number 17,

20     which ethnicity would that person be?

21        A.   Muslim.

22        Q.   23, Muslim?

23        A.   Muslim.

24        Q.   24?

25        A.   Muslim.

Page 4233

 1        Q.   28?  I don't want to speculate.

 2        A.   Muslim.

 3        Q.   29?

 4        A.   Muslim.

 5        Q.   Now let's take a look at 2D 0090 -- 989.

 6        A.   I can see it.

 7        Q.   It's a proposal of the 1st Brigade of HVO, Knez Domagoj.  Could

 8     you explain to the Bench what kind of document this is and what is the

 9     connection of this document with the Personnel Administration?

10        A.   The link of this document with the Personnel Administration is

11     that pursuant to this proposal that would be received by the Defence

12     Department after due process, the Personnel Administration would prepare

13     documents on appointments, because if I'm allowed to read out a part of

14     the text, this refers to the appointment to certain posts within the HVO.

15        Q.   I'm going to ask you two things about this, Mr. Bozic.  Are these

16     posts which Mr. Stojic was authorised to appoint pursuant to Article 34

17     of the regulations of the armed forces?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And on the last page, if you can remember, what was the procedure

20     for appointment, what the Personnel Administration would receive?  Would

21     it be a proposal?  Was any consent sought or required before Mr. Stojic

22     received the document to sign?

23        A.   Yes, this is what I explained.  A proposal would come from the

24     unit.  Consent would be obtained from the Main Staff, and then the

25     Personnel Administration would draft the document to be signed by

Page 4234

 1     Mr. Stojic.

 2        Q.   I'm going to show you several such documents on appointments made

 3     by Mr. Stojic.  This would be, the next one would be 2D 00985.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   This is Eugen Kvaternik - Bugojno Brigade appointments?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   There is a long list of appointments, 80 names.  You had occasion

 8     to read it, Mr. Bozic.  These persons, were they those who

 9     Mr. Bruno Stojic was authorised to appoint?

10        A.   That's correct.

11        Q.   Can you look at the next document?  That would be P 10846.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   This is also a document of appointment.  Was this absolutely in

14     accordance with what we talked about?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   The next document, can you please look at it, P 1805.  All right.

17     We have something characteristic here, and that is on the 4th of April,

18     1993, in the Stjepan Radic - Ljubuski Brigade, Adis Delalic was being

19     appointed.  According to his name, what ethnicity do you think he is?

20        A.   If I can say that I noticed that in the prior appointment, that

21     is, of the 12th of April, that judging by his name and his father's name,

22     this is a person of Muslim ethnicity.

23        Q.   All right.  Thank you for that remark.  That also applies to the

24     previous document, P 1846, and also this one, P 01805.  Judging by the

25     name and the name of the father, Mr. Bozic, it would seem that these were

Page 4235

 1     members of which ethnicity?

 2        A.   These are members of the Muslim ethnic group.

 3        Q.   Mr. Bozic, I'm now going to show you one document, and that is

 4     2D 0201, and I'm going to please ask you to comment on the contents of

 5     this document.  What is this document about, and why, from this

 6     exhaustive report, can we see that some persons from the Main Staff

 7     helped in the drafting of certain documents adopted either by the

 8     Personnel Administration or the Mobilisation Administration?  Can you

 9     please explain why this was necessary?

10        A.   This is what I was trying in the beginning --

11        Q.   I'm going to say this again, 2D 020 -- 2D 0201.

12        A.   This is what I said already once at the beginning, and that is

13     that we were, in all of these defence sections, and I can say that this

14     applies to all of the administrations, that we had a lack of skillful,

15     qualified personnel, so obviously persons who were in the Main Staff who

16     were very good at this kind of thing helped us.  What is most important

17     to note is that for all of us, work in the Defence Department was new.

18     For the most part, we were not qualified or had any work experience, in

19     terms of the military part of the work, so that colleagues helped us, in

20     the professional sense, in the preparation of certain documents.  So I

21     probably think that this was the case in -- with this report that we are

22     talking about.

23        Q.   Document 2D 0202 -- 2D 02010.  I don't know what the problem is.

24     I think that we have the wrong document on the transcript.  2D 02010.

25     Now it seems to be all right.

Page 4236

 1             Sir, now I'm going to ask you:  A lot of attention was drawn by

 2     Their Honours by a document who was given to you -- that was given to you

 3     separately.  It was given to Their Honours as well separately, and

 4     I think that you are the best person to be able to explain this document,

 5     and that is document 2D 00150.  You have it separately.  The document is

 6     separate, and I'm going to now remind you what this is about.  It's a

 7     review of the ethnic structure of the members of the HVO.  It's been

 8     given to the office of the president of the HVO HZ-HB, and it was drafted

 9     by the Personnel Administration, and it was dated the 9th of June, 1993.

10             Since we discussed a lot about this, about the percentage of

11     Croats and Muslims in the HVO units, can you please explain to

12     Their Honours how this document was drafted and who drafted it?

13        A.   Well, I can only say that I'm looking at this document for the

14     first time.  Actually, the first time I saw it was during the preparation

15     for my testimony.  Evidently, it went directly from the personnel chief

16     to the office of the president of the HZ-HB, Mr. Boban, and I can see a

17     review of this ethnic structure.

18             In the document, it was done on the basis of information, such as

19     it is, when we were working on the ID cards of all the members of the HVO

20     in the units, in the Defence Department and in the offices.  All these

21     people filled in specific forms, entering information on the basis of

22     which the ethnicity of these people was established.  This is something

23     which, in the area of the former Yugoslavia, was usual, and in that way

24     documents were drafted as well as personal ID cards of all of us, and

25     this practice was adopted when the ID cards were made for members of the

Page 4237

 1     HVO.

 2        Q.   When you say IDs of the HVO members, we are talking about

 3     military identification cards?

 4        A.   I have to say "IDs."  We, in the department, also had our own ID

 5     cards.  All of us had ID cards, and you can see here at the beginning

 6     that it says that the Defence Department, including all the sectors, so

 7     the ethnic structure was reviewed in all the sectors, from the Main Staff

 8     and everywhere else, and then it ends with the units which are at the

 9     bottom of the list.  The IDs were issued also to us who were not members

10     of the armed forces.

11        Q.   All right.  So, Mr. Bozic, I can conclude that this was done on

12     the basis of military ID -- excuse me, on the basis of ID cards which --

13     the information for which was submitted by those who are in the lists?

14        A.   Yes, the forms were filled in by those who were later issued with

15     ID cards.  Yes, that's where the information was derived from.

16        Q.   Mr. Bozic, can you please tell the Trial Chamber what documents

17     were adopted by the Defence Department?  Since we can see that you were

18     quite busy with the preparation and work in the Personnel Administration

19     for -- in the adoption of documents, can you please tell us, what sort of

20     documents were adopted by the Defence Department?

21        A.   I personally am talking about our work duties pursuant to the

22     Decree on the Armed Forces, and on the basis of these duties we adopted

23     what I can call sub-documents, bylaws.

24             We could refer to them like that.  So when we're talking about

25     the Decree on the Armed Forces, we would be drafting the regulations or

Page 4238

 1     books of rules for military conscription.  We or the Defence Department

 2     made rules on the functioning and the activities of the security and

 3     intelligence services.  On the other hand, we also had the duty pursuant

 4     to decisions and conclusions of the HVO HZ-HB.

 5             At this point in time, I can recall and speak about duties when

 6     the decisions on stamps and seals in the HVO were adopted, what our

 7     obligations were in the proceedings to make, register and issue those

 8     stamps.  Also documents within the department, there would be a basic act

 9     adopted by the HVO HZ-HB, and our acts would -- documents would be

10     adopted pursuant to that.  We also were obliged to propose certain

11     documents that were adopted at the level at the HVO HZ-HB or, rather,

12     that were adopted at sessions of the HVO HZ-HB.

13        Q.   So here you were talking about general documents, general

14     regulations.  We often had the opportunity to see them when you were in

15     the Personnel Department; is that correct?

16        A.   I didn't think there was any need to talk about individual acts.

17     We would prepare an act which would be adopted by the president, when

18     we're talking about certain appointments pursuant to his authorities.  I

19     also focused more on documents that we were adopting, so to say in view

20     of the position that we had according to our place in the organisational

21     structure.

22        Q.   We're now dealing with a topic that was of interest to His Honour

23     Judge Antonetti.  If you can, can you please briefly explain how these

24     documents were prepared in the Defence Department?  This is a

25     hypothetical question.  We have a whole series of these documents.  We

Page 4239

 1     have the procedures of how these acts were drafted, discussed about.  Can

 2     you please tell us, in the end, how they were proposed, adopted, and went

 3     into effect?

 4        A.   If we're talking about some documents which, in principle, were

 5     proposed by certain sectors of the Defence Department Administration, as

 6     such, they were drafted -- if we are talking about documents which

 7     referred to the complete or entire Defence Department, I would mostly be

 8     working on those types of documents with colleagues from the

 9     Personnel Administration.  Drafts of such acts, whenever possible, and we

10     managed to do that most of the time, would be put through a college

11     procedure at the Defence Department.  They would be discussed, and

12     suggestions would be made before they would actually be drafted in the

13     form which would then be submitted for further procedure.

14        Q.   In response to Judge Antonetti's question, you explained what

15     colleges were.  Now I'm going to ask you about these discussions at the

16     college sessions, about these acts that were supposed to be passed on for

17     further procedure.  Were general acts, bylaws, also discussed which were

18     supposed to be signed only by Mr. Stojic, the head of the Defence

19     Department, specifically?  Were such acts also discussed at the college?

20        A.   We did discuss these acts just for the purpose of being informed

21     about it within the department.  We wanted to follow what was going on

22     with the acts that we proposed and that were going to go on for further

23     procedure.

24        Q.   Mr. Bozic, how often were these college sessions scheduled?  And

25     we would also like to know who were members of the college and how often

Page 4240

 1     they sat in at meetings.

 2        A.   I would first of all like to tell the Trial Chamber that the

 3     college was an informal body, and members did not have any kind of legal

 4     basis for their existence.  It was an ad hoc body which had a need to

 5     discuss certain matters, certain questions that would be subject to

 6     further procedure, and would be drafted in the forms of draft laws and

 7     bylaws.  So we wanted to be informed about matters that were important

 8     and about matters that were being done in the department and on behalf of

 9     the department.  All the assistants of the head would attend these

10     meetings, also representatives of the Main Staff.  I, myself, was there

11     as Mr. Stojic's deputy, as well as the chiefs of certain administrations

12     in the department.

13        Q.   You explained that the college was an informal body.  Did it ever

14     happen that the college would adopt decisions or a decision?

15        A.   I think that there were situations like that, when the college

16     did adopt some decisions.

17             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] All right.  Your Honours, if you

18     permit me, I am going to move now to a very broad topic, and I would not

19     like to interrupt once I begin.  So if you have nothing against that, I

20     would suggest that we stop now and that we continue our session tomorrow

21     morning -- tomorrow afternoon.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  It's almost 7.00.

23             As you know, Witness, we will resume tomorrow morning, because

24     there will be a morning session tomorrow.  We will resume at 9.00.

25             Now, as regards the time you have used, Ms. Alaburic, you've used

Page 4241

 1     up two hours and thirty-five minutes -- I'm sorry, Ms. Nozica.  I was

 2     thinking about Ms. Alaburic.  Ms. Nozica, you've used up two hours and

 3     thirty-five minutes.  Therefore, you've got two hours and twenty-five

 4     minutes left.

 5             I wish you a good evening.  See you tomorrow.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day of

 8                           February, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.