1 Monday, 2 February 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, kindly call the
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
8 everyone in and around the courtroom.
9 This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Prlic et al.
11 Thank you, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 Today is Monday. Good afternoon to the accused, the Defence
14 counsel, all the OTP representatives, and good afternoon to all the
15 people assisting us.
16 First of all, I'll ask Mr. Registrar to give us an IC number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 4D has submitted his objection to documents tendered through
19 witness Marijan Davor by 2D. This objection shall be given
20 Exhibit IC0-0911.
21 Thank you, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
23 Mr. Scott, I think you have a new member of your team you want to
24 introduce to us.
25 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.
1 First of all, good afternoon, Mr. President, each of
2 Your Honours. I hope everyone had a good weekend. Good afternoon,
3 Counsel, and all those in and around the courtroom.
4 Yes, Your Honour, I'm very happy to -- to present to the Chamber
5 this afternoon a new colleague who has joined us some time ago, but it's
6 the first time that he's joined us in court. His name is Simon Laws, and
7 L-a-w-s. So a good name for a lawyer. Mr. Laws comes from the Bar of
9 having been called to the Bar. In that system, he has done both
10 prosecution and defence work.
11 I hasten to add, as I normally do, given comments that are made
12 from time to time about the size of the Prosecution case or the
13 Prosecution team -- well, case and team, Your Honour, that the team has
14 not gotten any larger, but unfortunately with the length of this case,
15 people come and people go. The Chamber may or may not know Mr. Poryvaev
16 left some time ago, and one or two other members of our staff who may or
17 may not have been in court recently have left over the past six months.
18 The team has not gotten larger, but we have had some changes. Mr. Laws
19 is a very experienced trial lawyer, and the Chamber will be seeing him
20 taking witnesses in court in the near future, and I'm happy to have him
21 join us.
22 Thank you.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Scott.
24 Well, Mr. Simon Laws, welcome, on behalf of the Trial Chamber.
25 We are very happy to see you get on board in the OTP team in charge of
1 this case. Welcome, again, and I'm sure that we'll have the pleasure in
2 the coming days or weeks to hear you.
3 Ms. Nozica, your witness is ready, I believe. Let's have him
4 brought in.
5 Mr. Usher, please.
6 Well, I avail myself of this opportunity to welcome all the
7 associates of Ms. Alaburic. Welcome to them, too.
8 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
9 welcome -- thank you for your welcome. I have noticed that you have
10 looked at my associates with interest. They're not in the courtroom for
11 the first time, but I can introduce them. They are legal assistants in
12 the General Petkovic Defence team, Ms. Natalija Labavic, who is an intern
13 in Zagreb
14 in New York
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Alaburic.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. I hope
18 you can hear me. Could you please state your surname, first name, and
19 date of birth.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am Slobodan Bozic. I was born on
21 the 2nd of November, 1949.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current
23 occupation, please?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a lawyer by profession. At the
25 moment, I'm working in a company as a lawyer, and I'm working in the
1 human resources department of that company.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Have you had an
3 opportunity to testify before an international or domestic court of law
4 as to the events that took place in the former Yugoslavia, or is this
5 going to be the first time?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I have never testified before,
7 before any court. I was questioned or interrogated by The Hague Tribunal
8 in the capacity of a suspect, but I never actually learned why this
10 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
11 and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: SLOBODAN BOZIC
13 [The witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. Please be
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Let me give you some explanation. You are a lawyer, so what I'm
18 about to say is not going to be of any surprise to you.
19 In these proceedings, you are going to be first put questions by
20 Ms. Nozica, as the Defence counsel of Mr. Stojic; and she's about to ask
21 questions of you, following which the other Defence lawyers seated on
22 your left, defending the other accused, may also ask questions as part of
23 their cross-examination. After that, the Office of the Prosecutor, who's
24 represented by the people on your right-hand side, is going to
25 cross-examine you and will be given the same amount of time as the time
1 needed for examination-in-chief.
2 The four Judges in front of you can also ask questions of you,
3 depending, of course, on the documents or the questions put to you, but
4 we'll be very mindful not to take up too much of the time because we
5 realise, based on the latest statistics established by the Registrar, we
6 took up too much time. Therefore, we're going to exercise self-restraint
7 and make sure that we do not step in too often.
8 Also endeavour to be very precise in your answers. If you fail
9 to understand anything, do not hesitate to ask the person asking you the
10 question to rephrase it.
11 We shall break every hour and a half for 20 minutes for you to
12 have a rest and also so that the audio and videotapes can be changed.
13 You have just taken an oath. Therefore, as of now you're not to
14 have any contact whatsoever with the Stojic Defence team or with other
15 Defence counsel, or with the OTP, for that matter, because now you are a
16 witness of the Court; so that when you go back to your hotel, you're not
17 supposed to talk to anyone about the progress of the case unless of
18 course you want to speak to your companion, to your wife, just to say
19 that everything is going fine.
20 Ms. Nozica must have told you this. She has a specific number of
21 hours for her examination-in-chief. The same for the other Defence
22 counsel. So you are going to spend at least two weeks here. I hope you
23 made all the necessary arrangements.
24 So this is what I wanted to tell you.
25 Ms. Nozica, you may proceed.
1 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, and
2 good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.
3 I would like to make a note that we have provided a new schedule
4 of witnesses, and according to that, we plan this witness to be finished
5 by next Tuesday because we have already planned a new witness for
6 Wednesday and Thursday. We know it's too early to make any firm
7 decisions about this, and I do need to call the new witness, so probably
8 at the end of the day on Thursday we will know what our schedule will be
9 after that.
10 Your Honours, since we're talking about a witness, Mr. Bozic,
11 who's going to be examined in chief by the Defence of Mr. Stojic, too,
12 and the Defence of Mr. Praljak, if necessary do we need to instruct the
13 witness about the course of the examination-in-chief? You have
14 instructed the witness about the examination of him by the
15 Stojic Defence, but I think that he also needs to be instructed about his
16 examination-in-chief by the Praljak Defence. I think perhaps we need to
17 make that information available to the witness.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, it so happens that
19 General Praljak plans to put questions to you. We, the Trial Chamber,
20 agree to that, but General Praljak and his lawyer will intervene
21 following Ms. Nozica's examination, once she has completed her
22 examination-in-chief. So General Praljak will intervene after her. This
23 is the way things have been scheduled. General Praljak can ask
24 questions. If you mention parts in your testimony that relates to his
25 expertise or his military knowledge, then he will ask the questions
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, Your Honour, but
3 I would like to ask a question, if possible.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You said that I'm probably going to
6 be in this courtroom for the next two weeks. Unfortunately, because of
7 the fact that I couldn't start my testimony because the previous witness
8 took longer, and in the meantime I'm having some problems with my eye;
9 and thanks to a lot of help from the Victims and Witnesses Unit, I have
10 managed to take care, to a degree, of my problem. However, I am here at
11 the summons of the Court, and because of that I had to take two weeks'
12 leave from work. If this should be extended, I will have to then enter
13 into the third week. I'm working on assignments that have dead-lines at
14 my job, so I would like to know what this means. Is there a kind of
15 dead-line so that I could plan my duties according to my earlier plans,
16 in view of the fact that my testimony is taking longer, but it was
17 planned to take only six days? I would need to be back in
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina on the following Thursday.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are going to testify today,
20 tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, and on Thursday. You will return on
21 Monday and Tuesday of next week. Why, sir? Because Ms. Nozica has
22 scheduled a witness who is about to testify over two days. So if all
23 goes well, you should be leaving The Hague next Tuesday, if all goes
24 well. Of course, you never know. Sometimes things may come up which I
25 can't foresee right now. So you're here for this week and for next
1 Monday and Tuesday. That's the plan. You never know. It could be
2 shorter, it could be longer.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Of course, if you have any
5 questions, don't hesitate to address them to the Trial Chamber. It will
6 be our pleasure to answer them.
7 Examination by Ms. Nozica:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon once again, Mr. Bozic.
9 A. Good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.
10 Q. Mr. Bozic, you have given us your particulars in response to
11 His Honour Judge Antonetti's question. I would like you to briefly tell
12 us which schools you completed, where and when, and to very briefly tell
13 us how you started working in your office job.
14 A. I completed my primary and secondary education in Siroki Brijeg.
15 I finished the Faculty of Law in Zagreb
16 of duty in the former state, I worked in the Municipal Court in Mostar as
17 an intern, and then after passing my trial term of office, I passed the
18 Bar exam in Sarajevo
19 Municipal Court in Siroki Brijeg. After a while, I became the president
20 of the Municipal Board of the League of Communists in Siroki Brijeg; and
21 then after that I became the President of the Municipal Assembly or the
22 mayor of Siroki Brijeg. And after my term of duty expired, I returned
23 and became the local prosecutor for the Siroki Brijeg and Posusje
24 municipalities. At the end of the 1980s, I became the chief of police of
1 at the time, and currently some of these municipalities belong to the
2 Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and some belong to the
3 Republika Srpska. I was the chief of police in Mostar until the
4 multiparty elections in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
5 Q. Mr. Bozic, when you say the post of chief of police in Mostar,
6 can you explain to the Trial Chamber which municipalities that police
7 organisation covered that you were at the head of and when?
8 A. It was the period from 1989 to mid-1991. These are
9 municipalities, if you look from the south-east, from Trebinje, Bileca,
10 Gackonje [phoen], Vesinje [phoen], Ljubinje, Neum, Capljina, Mostar,
11 Jablanica, Konjic, Prozor, Posusje, Grude, Ljubusko, Siroki Brijeg.
12 Q. All right, Siroki Brijeg. And what happened after that? Now
13 we're talking about this period from 1989 to mid-1991. What happened in
14 your professional life? After that?
15 A. Sometime in June 1991, after -- a few months after the multiparty
16 elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Lucic became the chief of police,
17 and in agreement with the authorities that were in power at the time, I
18 was supposed to remain as his adviser for another three months; but in
19 the meantime, I actually opened my own law practice, which was under the
20 jurisdiction of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Bar and began to work there
21 after this work together ended after three months. Unfortunately, the
22 three months in Bosnia
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina which prevented me from actually starting to work in
24 my practice. I stayed in the police force because already in mid-1991
25 the Herzegovina
1 was ran over by members of the JNA and the reservists of that same army.
2 Q. And how long did you stay in that post? And I'm going to ask you
3 to tell us what happened from that time on until September 1992,
5 A. Practically, that was the beginning of occupation of Herzegovina
6 and the beginning of preparations for the war and the attack on the
7 village of Ravno, which is actually in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Today,
8 it's the municipality of Ravno
9 attacked the area of Dubrovnik
10 the Police Administration as an adviser of Mr. Lucic, and at that time,
11 since there were major forces of the JNA in that area, we were frequently
12 in contact with them, and at the same time in late 1992, that area
13 actually was significant to me because that was when I first began to
14 have contacts with the European Union monitors and UN monitors who had
15 arrived to Bosnia and Herzegovina and Herzegovina
16 on with the units of the JNA.
17 Q. Mr. Bozic, in order to be very precise, can you tell us what your
18 capacity was when you communicated with them?
19 A. The initial contacts that I had with them, I was still the
20 adviser of Mr. Lucic. This was in 1991.
21 Q. And he was what?
22 A. He was the chief of police of Herzegovina.
23 Q. All right, very well. Can you please tell us what happened then?
24 We're now going up to September 1992. Did you transfer to a different
25 agency after that?
1 A. No, I stayed in the police because this attack on Ravno in
2 September 1991 marked the beginning of the war, and practically the
3 forming of the HV [as interpreted] in April 1992 actually took place in
4 the area of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna. I stayed in the
5 police because the Internal Affairs Department of the Croatian Community
6 of Herzegovina
7 began to function and to be organised pursuant to the adopted
8 regulations. So I remained in the police practically until the end of
9 August or beginning of September 1992.
10 Q. In page 11, line 1, it is stated "HV," and the witness stated
11 "HVO." Thanks, Madam Alaburic, for the assistance.
12 Witness, you mentioned the HVO, not the Croatian Army, HV?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. When did you come to work for the Department of Defence?
15 A. I think it was in the beginning of September 1992.
16 Q. Who invited you to come to work to the Department of Defence?
17 A. Mr. Stojic. I had known him. We had worked together at the
18 MUP for a time while I was in Mostar, in the Mostar police, and
19 Mr. Stojic at the time was assistant of the minister of the interior of
20 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
21 Q. You say that he invited you to come over to work, to use your
22 expertise. When did you get your appointment and to which post in the
23 Department of Defence?
24 A. I started work without any appointment, formal establishment.
25 I think that the formal appointment occurred on a session of the HVO of
1 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna sometime in mid-January 1993.
2 Q. To which post?
3 A. Assistant chief of the Defence Department.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Deputy head.
5 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
6 Q. When did you leave that post?
7 A. I was on that post as long as Mr. Stojic was the head.
8 Q. Before the appointment to the deputy head of Defence Department,
9 had you been appointed to any other body of the HVO of the HZ-HB?
10 A. Well, practically, the first formal appointment was to -- as a
11 member of the Commission for the Relationship with UNPROFOR of the HVO of
13 Q. Mr. Bozic, I'm making this pause so that my questions and your
14 answers can be reflected in the transcript.
15 Let's go back to the Defence Department. What did you do after
16 you arrived there? Sorry. What did you do there after Mr. Stojic left
17 the department, so that we go through the whole of your career there?
18 A. After Mr. Stojic left, there were some proposals that I join the
19 government in certain capacities. In cooperation with Mr. Prlic, I
20 agreed to be appointed to the head of the Office for Cooperation with
21 UNPROFOR, the European Community Monitoring Mission, and other
22 international organisations; but I must highlight here that at the
23 proposal of Mr. Perica Jukic or at his request, I performed some duties
24 in the Personnel Administration, duties and tasks I had performed while I
25 acted in my capacity as deputy chief of the Defence Department.
1 Q. So for a time, you performed both those duties; is that correct?
2 A. Correct. I was appointed head of the UNPROFOR, ECMM, other
3 international organisations cooperation in December, and Mr. Jukic, who
4 was newly appointed as the minister of defence for the Croatian Republic
5 of HB, he asked me to remain there to help further development of the
6 Personnel Administration and to continue performing all the tasks that I
7 had performed while I was the deputy chief of the Defence of Department.
8 In his words, "I have to find a new person to fill your shoes,"
9 and to which I answered, "Well, let me see with Mr. Prlic first." I did
10 so, and Mr. Prlic told me that I'm duty-bound to perform the tasks of the
11 new office and that I had my work cut out to develop that office, and if
12 I could perform some other duties along the way, he would not object to
13 that. But what he wanted was for that office to function properly, and
14 this is why I considered to work in parallel on two positions, although I
15 have to state that I was never appointed deputy or assistant minister of
16 defence for personnel.
17 Q. Mr. Bozic, how long was Mr. Jukic minister of defence and who
18 replaced him and when, and did you continue to cooperate with that other
19 person in the same way?
20 A. Mr. Jukic stayed there briefly, a couple of months; I'm not sure
21 whether three or three and a half months. I know it was a very short
22 time. And Mr. Vladimir Soljic [Realtime transcript read in error,
23 "Coric"] was appointed to replace him as minister of defence, a person I
24 had long known. We came from the same hometown of Siroki Brijeg. I
25 explained to him the arrangements with Mr. Jukic that I had made, in
1 terms of my assistance to set up the personnel and care department or
2 administration. He told me that I should be patient before an
3 appropriate person is found to replace me, but unfortunately this took
4 much longer than we had initially agreed to.
5 Q. Mr. Bozic, until -- what was the period when you worked in the
6 Office for Cooperation with the UNPROFOR, ECMM and International
7 Organisation of HVO HZ-HB?
8 A. Well, the Federal Government was set up pursuant to the
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I believe the Chamber knows how it functioned. The
11 true setup of government started after the Dayton Accords, which means
12 that my office worked approximately until March 1996.
13 Q. Where did you go after that?
14 JUDGE PRANDLER: I would like to say the following: That I do
15 appreciate Ms. Nozica's efforts to slow down, but she also asked for the
16 witness; but I would also like to ask Mr. Bozic to be kind enough to
17 cooperate and to wait until Madam Nozica actually finishes her question,
18 since we have, of course, in three languages interpretation, and then to
19 answer only when the interpreters finish their job. So, therefore, I
20 would like again to ask both of you to slow down a bit and to wait
21 between the questions and answers.
22 Thank you.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Before we continue, let us correct
25 the transcript. Page 13, line 20, what is stated is "Vladimir Coric."
1 What should be stated there is "Vladimir Soljic."
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a mistake in my transcript.
3 It is Valentin Coric [as interpreted].
4 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
5 Q. This has been corrected, Mr. Bozic. Let's go back to March 1996.
6 After that time, after the Dayton Accords, as you say, what was your next
8 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the
9 colleague. The witness said that it wasn't Valentin Coric, but on
10 page 14, line 25, what is said in the transcript is "this is
11 Valentin Coric." What I would like to ask the witness is to say what is
12 the name of the person he was referring to.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I noticed, although I do not use
14 the English language, to my detriment, that the transcript reflected
15 "Valentin Coric," but what I said clearly and loudly was Vladimir Soljic,
17 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Finally, it is correct.
18 Q. Can you answer my question, please, if you remember it?
19 A. Yes, I do remember it. After that while -- for a while I worked
20 as an adviser or an external associate of Mr. Vladimir Soljic, who had
21 been elected as president of the Federation, and with Mr. Ivo Andric
22 Luzanski, who was also president of the Federation of Bosnia and
24 Q. If you do not mind, I can assist you during the first break, in
25 terms of the names and surnames, because they -- the transcript is
1 erroneous in this respect. So we do not correct it here during the
3 Mr. Bozic, you told us where you work now. My question
4 concerning this part of an introduction in your career, the last question
5 in that part is whether you have ever been a member of the HDZ, Croatian
6 Democratic Union
7 A. I have never been a member of the HDZ.
8 Q. I know, Mr. Bozic, that you had to hear many instructions. Do
9 not ignore the instruction to wait for the question to enter into the
10 transcript before answering, so that we do not overlap.
11 Mr. Bozic, do you know when Mr. Soljic was appointed as head of
12 the Department of Defence?
13 A. I think it was in July of 1992.
14 Q. Do you know, and you said that you had known him from before,
15 what were his positions before that appointment?
16 A. Yes, I do know, because we used to bump into each other. He used
17 to be assistant commander for logistics.
18 Q. Could you tell us his positions before that position?
19 A. If you mean the Ministry of the Interior, well, he worked there
20 while I was in Mostar police, as assistant minister. I think that his
21 post was labelled "supplies, financial and other affairs."
22 Q. Mr. Bozic, until which date Mr. Stojic was head of Defence
24 A. Well, this is a date that I remember. Until the 10th of
25 November, 1993, when it was published on TV news what the composition of
1 the new government will be, and I remember that event well. Mr. Stojic
2 had this information on TV while he was watching a news bulletin together
3 with his family, his parents.
4 Q. Mr. Bozic, do you know when Mr. Stojic handed over his duty to
5 the newly-appointed minister and whether, from the 10th of November
6 onwards until the hand-over, did he come to the Defence Department?
7 A. He did not come to visit the Defence Department from the 10th of
8 November onwards. I was shown a document co-signed by Mr. Stojic and
9 Mr. Jukic on the hand-over, and this was dated 15th of November, 1993.
10 Q. Mr. Bozic, where was the Defence Department located? Where were
11 its premises? Let me remind you that in mid-September, you came to the
12 Defence Department. Can you tell us, from your arrival there until the
13 10th of November, 1993, where were the premises of the Defence Department
15 A. The first premises were in the building housing the
16 Agronomy Institute or, better put, a major agro-business enterprise,
17 Apro. We were housed there until after the conflict between Croats and
18 Muslims in Mostar broke out. After that, we moved to several locations.
19 One of those locations was a private house in Cim. Another location
20 briefly was in a private home on the Mostar-Siroki Brijeg road. The
21 third one was at Citluk, within a factory site. After that, we returned
22 to Mostar. And when the Ministry was established and Mr. Lukic came, the
23 then Ministry of Defence moved to Posusje.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.
25 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Bozic, could you tell us, when did you leave the first
2 location and when did you return to it, roughly the time of the year,
3 maybe month, as far as your recollection serves you?
4 A. I believe that we left the initial premises in Mostar maybe
5 mid-May, June, and we returned late summer, beginning of autumn, maybe
6 September, maybe October. I can't be specific, but this is as far as
7 I can remember.
8 Q. How many people worked in the office of the head of Department of
9 Defence, just his office, at the time when you arrived?
10 A. There was the secretary, then the driver and bodyguard in one. I
11 was there, and an administrator later came to work.
12 Q. When you left the Defence Department, how many people had been
13 employed in the meantime?
14 A. A handful of people, technical staff who worked there. I must
15 tell you one thing. It wasn't easy to find the right people to work in
16 the Defence Department because of the needs for people to be employed
17 elsewhere because some people thought that the Defence Department could
18 work with fewer personnel.
19 Q. Mr. Bozic, what was your job when you came to the Defence
20 Department in early September 1992?
21 A. I remember that my first jobs were, together with the colleagues
22 who were already in the Personnel Administration before me, to draft a
23 decision on the structuring of the Defence Department pursuant to the
24 previous decision about the organisation of the Defence Ministry adopted
25 by Mr. Mate Boban.
1 Q. You said that you had some colleagues there from the Personnel
2 Department. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber when this Personnel
3 Department was formed and who were these colleagues? How many of them
4 were there who were helping you in these tasks?
5 A. The Personnel Department was formed before the forming of the
6 Defence Department. I think this was sometime in May 1992, and there
7 were three people working there. I know, for one, that he was a lawyer,
8 one was a professor, and I'm not sure about the third person because I
9 cannot remember what his profession was.
10 Q. And you said that they were helping you at the beginning and that
11 you were working on the decision on the establishment pursuant to a
12 decision adopted by the president of the HZ-HB. Did you work on any
13 other regulations at that time, let's say, in the course of October?
14 A. I would like to correct the -- what you said. You said the
15 decision, the basis for establishment, this was adopted by Mr. Boban, but
16 I said that we adopted our decision on the establishment of the
17 administration on the basis of the decision adopted by Mr. Boban.
18 Q. Yes, I understood what you said, and I just wanted to ask you
19 what were perhaps any other documents that you worked on in October, if
20 you did.
21 A. Since the Law on the Armed Forces was adopted before the
22 Defence Department was established, in a certain amount of time there was
23 a need for things to evolve and to expand; and I know that I worked on
24 the drafting of a text on the amendments and additions to the Law on the
25 Armed Forces, which if I can remember correctly was adopted at this
1 meeting. It was the last meeting of the Presidency of the HZ-HB on the
2 18th of October 1992.
3 Q. And, Mr. Bozic, what did you then do later? Were you charged
4 specifically with some duties after this, and what were those duties?
5 A. At the time, I was formally still not deputy head of Defence
6 Department, but I continued to work on my job pursuant to the decision on
7 the establishment of the Defence Department and the defence section. And
8 in view of the work that we were supposed to do and in view of the fact
9 that the civilian sector actually was under the jurisdiction of the
10 Personnel Administration, the bulk of my work was actually to coordinate
11 of the work -- to coordinate the work of the Personnel Administration.
12 Q. Mr. Bozic, were you the only lawyer in the Defence Department?
13 And I'm not including here other organisational units, only the office of
14 Mr. Stojic. Were you the only lawyer in that office which we described
15 earlier? I'm not talking about the Personnel Administration.
16 A. Yes, I was the only lawyer.
17 Q. Mr. Bozic, after you were appointed deputy head of the Defence
18 Department, did you work on documents that were drafted or adopted by the
19 Defence Department?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. And did you work by yourself or were you assisted by these
22 persons from the Personnel Department and from other lawyers?
23 A. Yes, I had help from my colleagues who worked in the Personnel
25 Q. Now I'm going to move to a new subject. I'm going to ask you,
1 Mr. Bozic, if you took part in the arming or providing weapons to the
2 Croatian and Bosniak people in 1991.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a few questions
4 of a pure logistical nature to put to you on paper, pens and erasers, in
5 order to better understand a few issues that the Judges of this Trial
6 Chamber will have to think about. You will understand my questions, of
7 course, because from your experience, I observed that you were a judge, a
8 prosecutor. You were also a chief of police in Mostar. You had very
9 high positions. Therefore, I'm sure you will be able to answer my
11 When you were appointed within the Defence Department, if I
12 understood correctly, you were appointed because you knew Mr. Stojic.
13 Did he recruit yourself -- did he recruit you, himself?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Stojic told me that he
15 was forming that department, and knowing what I did before in the police
16 and knowing my experience as a lawyer, he said that it would be good to
17 have such a person there. I don't want to seem immodest.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I guess you had an office. Was
19 your office far away from his?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Our two offices were actually
21 separated by the office where the secretary was sitting.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Between your office
23 and his, there was the secretary, so you weren't far away from
24 Mr. Stojic. We know that one of your duties was personnel issues. Could
25 you please tell me how many people belonged to that department; 50
1 people, 100? Could you give me a ballpark figure?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before I'm in a
3 position to respond to your question at all, I first have to say one
5 It's a fact from that time, the Personnel Administration was
6 formed in 1992, regardless of -- in May, regardless of the department,
7 and that personnel section was working, as you can see, on the basis of
8 reports that were drafted for the second half of 1992, on registering
9 those who were killed, wounded, missing combatants, and also on securing
10 assistance to the families of the killed, missing and wounded fighters;
11 and practically the Personnel Administration, when I began to work with
12 them, together with my colleagues, actually had not yet began to deal
13 with these matters that you are speaking about.
14 As time went by, perhaps starting from March 1993, when the
15 number of employees grew in the administration, the
16 Personnel Administration still did its work regarding welfare, also moved
17 on to assignments that originally were supposed to be in its
18 jurisdiction, but it did continue to record the employees within the
19 Defence Department, also registered members of the units, and later began
20 to issue IDs to members of the HVO. So this was a process --
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me stop you, Witness. One
22 moment, please, because your answer took three minutes, and then it will
23 be said that Judges' questions are too long, whilst my question only took
24 a few seconds, whilst your answer was very long.
25 I did not want to ask you about what you were doing. It was a
1 very specific question. How many staff in the Defence Department? I
2 said 10, 20, 30, 50, 100, a thousand. Give me an approximate figure.
3 That's all I need.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, I have to just say that it
5 is very important to know which period we are referring to. Which period
6 are you asking about regarding the number of employees?
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
8 continues] ... said that there was an increase, that you started with 5,
9 we ended with 50 employees. That's all I want to know. I just want a
10 figure. How many to start with, and how many on the 10th of November,
11 1993, for instance?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Taking into account that the
13 Defence Administration had its sectors, then I would need to come out
14 with the numbers in these sectors. I'm afraid that I really could not be
15 accurate, and I don't want to guess.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just approximately. Fifty?
17 I'm not asking for a precise figure. Just approximately. Well, just say
18 you don't know and I can move on to something else.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot give you an accurate
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay, so you're not going to
23 As to the people working in that Defence Department, did you have
24 together with you military personnel, people in uniform, with weapons?
25 Did you have military people with you or were there only civilians
1 working in the department?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you're asking if I had a
3 uniform, at that time we were all wearing uniforms, both civilians and
4 military personnel. It was the times. Within the Defence Department,
5 I think that we didn't actually have any military personnel.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So that's the main question.
7 You have just said that in the Defence Department, there were no
8 military, so even if you wore uniforms, I wanted to know whether around
9 Mr. Stojic there were officers, captains, majors, colonels, generals who
10 had their offices just next to his.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we're talking about the
12 sectors, I was talking about sectors within the Defence Administration --
13 Department. There was also the Main Staff, so everything that I am
14 telling you about the military personnel, I am talking about the sectors
15 that were within the Defence Administration; but I'm not taking into
16 account the Main Staff.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The interpreters are asking you
18 to be closer to your microphones. You have two in front of you. Yes,
19 yes, pull them towards you. Thank you.
20 If I understood properly, in the Defence Department, later to
21 become the Defence Ministry, there were no military personnel, there were
22 no officers who would have had military positions. Is that how things
23 should be understood?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now my last question. In those
1 various premises that you mentioned, was there one room with military
2 maps in it where the various units or HVO brigades were positioned? Was
3 there somebody who, on a minute-by-minute basis or an hourly basis, would
4 position the units on the map so that Mr. Stojic knew, in realtime, what
5 the situation was?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that there was any
7 kind of General Staff of the sort that you are talking about in the area
8 that we are talking about, but I did say that within the department,
9 there was a Main Staff; but not as a General Staff in the sense that I
10 understand you to mean.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Mr. Bozic, in relation to Judge Antonetti's question about the
14 number of employees in the Defence Department, I asked you a specific
15 question about how many employees there were in the office, the inner
16 circle around Mr. Stojic, and you said that there were five to seven
17 people, at the most. Did I understand you correctly?
18 A. Yes, I understood your question like that, and this is what I
19 answered. As for Judge Antonetti's question, I said that that would need
20 to be also the total number of all employees in the other sectors as
21 well, so I didn't wish to speculate.
22 Q. Well, I understood your question, but I just wanted to say that
23 when we come to the internal structure and organisation, we will cover
24 that in more detail and try to provide an answer, if you can remember it.
25 There was a question also, Mr. Bozic, about your eventual
1 participation or securing of weapons to the Croatian and Bosniak people
2 in 1991?
3 A. I did take part, together with colleagues from the Ministry of
4 the Interior in Sarajevo
5 must say here, without going into names - I don't want to omit
6 anyone - that the key job in that work was Mr. Delimustafic and his
7 assistant, Mr. Stojic.
8 Q. Mr. Bozic, we're talking about 1991. Why was it necessary to arm
9 the Croat and Bosniak people?
10 A. Well, I believe that Their Honours know that in the area of the
11 former Yugoslavia
12 confiscated the weapons from the Territorial Defence, and in a symbolic
13 sense confiscated weapons from the people themselves. And in view of the
14 circumstances in the Republic of Croatia
15 times were ahead and that it was important to try, as far as this was
16 possible, to arm the Croatian and the Muslim people, and one of the legal
17 ways, conditionally speaking, was to do that was the Ministry of the
18 Interior, which had its own reserve force that was fortunately not
19 disarmed by the Yugoslav People's Army. And so using this reserve police
20 force, there was a legal option, through the Bosnia-Herzegovina Defence
21 Ministry, to arm the Muslim and the Croatian people.
22 Q. And can you tell us of any other ways, that you are aware of, of
23 obtaining weapons?
24 A. Well, I have to say that here, and I believe that Your Honours
25 know that, that the Croats and the Muslims were aware of the times and
1 they provided -- they obtained weapons for themselves, costing thousands
2 of German marks. People were finding ways of getting weapons,
3 themselves. In view of everything that was going on in the Republic of
6 Q. Mr. Bozic, would you like to explain to the Trial Chamber what
7 was your specific role in the arming? I'm reminding you of the Pasaga
8 [as interpreted] statement which implicated highly-positioned officials
9 of the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina. What was your role in all that?
10 A. Reserve forces' weapons were, for a time, warehoused at regional
11 police and local police stations. That regional was the Mostar regional
12 police headquarters, and the central warehouse stocked a large quantity
13 of weapons in the central warehouse of the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and
14 Mr. Delimustafic and Mr. Stojic allowed for those weapons to be
15 distributed, among others, to the police in Mostar. Everything was
16 regular, in terms of paperwork and regulations. And after the weapons
17 were received at Mostar, those weapons were distributed to both the
18 Muslims and Croats in the area of Herzegovina
19 Q. You say, in your last sentence, that it was distributed to Croats
20 and Muslims. It was not distributed to the Serbs. How do you see your
21 actions of the day, and what was your motive to take part in that?
22 A. I believe that the Trial Chamber and any other observer may form
23 an opinion that such actions may lack professionality, and that they may
24 seem immoral to work in a state organ representing all of the citizens of
25 the then Bosnia and Herzegovina republic, and practically to commit
1 actions that the same body of government should sanction. In other
2 words, to distribute arms and weapons and commit offences which that body
3 of government is working to eradicate.
4 But for myself, in my opinion and opinion of all the colleagues
5 that I worked on that with, was that this was the only possible,
6 reasonable, and justifiable reaction to what had happened before. As far
7 as I personally am concerned, on top of what was happening in the
8 Republic of Croatia
9 the mask [Realtime transcript read in error, "mosques"] fell, that events
10 which really bared the situation for me was when tanks -- JNA tanks came
11 to Siroki Brijeg and when the police that I headed detected arms which
12 the JNA had distributed in Eastern Herzegovina in the municipality of
13 Bileca, of course distributing those weapons to the Serbs.
14 Q. Mr. Bozic, could you tell the Trial Chamber, please, what do you
15 mean by the event with the tanks in Siroki Brijeg?
16 A. It was an event which had, and I believe, it will have an
17 historical significance. My take on that event was particular to me. I
18 was then still chief of police in Mostar.
19 When I was phoned by the mayor of Siroki Brijeg, my hometown,
20 Mr. Andjelko Mikulic, his voice was a tremble, he said:
21 "What are they doing to us? I'm telling you, they will not pass
22 this point. They're not going to Croatia, and they're not going to
23 occupy us here."
24 Q. Mr. Bozic, could you specify the date of that event, if you can
1 A. Of course I can. From the 7th to the -- 5th to the 7th May 1991.
2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I have an intervention. In the
3 transcript, page 28, line 5, you said "the mosques fell."
4 Q. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. What is in the transcript is something completely different. If
7 need be, you may later on explain what you meant by those words.
8 You can continue, please.
9 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me. On that very point, I would object and
10 ask for clarification. What the transcript, at least in English says, it
11 says exactly that, and I don't know what the discrepancy seen by counsel
12 is. It says "all the mosques fell," and there's no indication of what
13 Mr. Bozic means, or the time, or the location. And I think that we
14 should not go forward without some explanation for that statement, and
15 putting time and place on it.
16 Thank you.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. While in the
18 French, it was not "mosques," but "masks." So there must be a problem
19 somewhere, a hitch somewhere. I've already pointed it out. People
20 working from B/C/S into English have got to be very careful to what
21 people say in B/C/S, because mosques and masks, that's not the same
23 Can you please confirm what you said, Witness? Witness, what did
24 you say, exactly? Did you mention mosques or masks?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't speak English. I can't
1 understand, but I'm very fluent in Croatian, and the words "maska,"
2 "mask" and "dzamija," "mosque," are not even closely resembling one
3 another, so I'm really at a loss how this may have happened in
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What did you say, did you say
6 "masks" or "mosques."
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said "masks."
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are you satisfied, Mr. Scott?
9 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, and I hope the Chamber and everyone
10 agrees it was worthwhile to get that clarification.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Indeed. Go ahead.
12 Witness, we were then on the 7th of June, 1991.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 7th of May.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 7th of May. Very well. 7th of
15 May, 1991.
16 On that day, did Yugoslavia
17 of May, 1991, was Croatia
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Yugoslavia still existed.
21 International Community, and entered the UN. At that time, Yugoslavia
22 still existed.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you said that the masks
24 fell or were about to fall, what did you mean by that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I illustrated, by those two
1 events, when I said the masks had fallen, it was believed that Yugoslav
2 People's Army was supposed to be Yugoslav and people's. It was supposed
3 to work for Yugoslavia
4 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Bozic, you started explaining how the mayor of Siroki Brijeg
6 phoned you. You said that it took place on the 7th of May, 1991. Please
7 continue with your account of what happened afterwards. We are
8 proceeding very slowly, so please be as concise as possible, describing
9 your first event with the tanks.
10 A. After that, I asked an associate to check what was going on:
11 After that, I asked a colleague of mine to look into that situation, what
12 was going on in the city, and briefly afterwards, I received information
13 that a large column of tanks and trucks had passed through the town, in
14 the direction of Siroki Brijeg; that they destroyed curb-stones and
15 tree-lines in the city of Mostar
16 while, we received further information that the people in the location of
17 Polog stopped that tank column.
18 Police started performing their duties in terms of providing
19 security and finding alternative routes for the traffic to continue.
20 They started securing that site so as to prevent any incidents from
21 occurring. And in the afternoon hours, Mr. Stjepan Kljujic, member of
22 the Bosnia-Herzegovina Presidency, arrived there, in the company of
23 Mr. Jerko Doko, minister of defence of the Republic of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and briefly afterwards gentlemen Mate Boban and a
25 group of members of Parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina arrived shortly
1 afterwards, because BiH Parliament was in session on that day.
2 I arrived there for the first time with Mr. Kljujic, Mr. Doko,
3 Mr. Boban, and the MPs, so a large group of people who did not allow
4 Mr. Kljujic to address them because he asked them to let the tanks
5 through. After that, I returned to my office in Mostar.
6 Late in the evening, while Mr. Kljujic and Mr. Doko and their
7 associates were at my office, I received word from the reception that a
8 JNA general wanted to talk to me. His name was Zorc.
9 Q. Mr. Bozic, I apologise -- I apologise for interrupting you. You
10 are explaining this in a very concise manner, but you are speaking very
11 slow. You may speed up. This is too slow. The interpreters and
12 transcript will catch up with you.
13 A. Thank you.
14 Mr. Zorc, which is not a characteristic of a general, in my
15 opinion, was looking very apprehensive when he came to the office. He
16 said that he did not know what was going on, why this column of tanks
17 moved in the first place. He said that he was in Slovenia for the
18 weekend when it happened, and since tensions were high, everything had to
19 be done to prevent even the smallest incidents from sparking up because
20 it may have catastrophic consequences. So patrols were organised of
21 policemen and civilians who were working on preventing such incidents
22 from happening on that night and throughout the night.
23 Mr. Kljujic, the following day, managed to establish contact with
24 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, and he requested that he come to Mostar to convene
25 a session of the Committee for General People's Defence and Social
1 Self-Defence. It was the highest body at the level of the Republic of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina dealing with defence and civil protection. There were
3 several conversations between them. One particularly stuck in my memory,
4 when Mr. Kljujic told Mr. Izetbegovic:
5 "If you do not come to Mostar, from tomorrow on Croatian members
6 of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina and members of Parliament of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina will become opposition, will cross the floor."
8 Another interesting situation occurred on that same day which
9 showed the conduct of the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army. Mr. Kljujic,
10 Mr. Doko and their colleagues were invited to a meeting to the JNA
11 barracks in Mostar, and they went there. After a while, my secretary
12 told me that there was a call from President Tudjman's Cabinet, who
13 wanted to establish urgent contact with Mr. Kljujic. I relayed to our
14 services the need to contact our officers escorting Mr. Kljujic,
15 Mr. Doko, and their colleagues; but soon afterwards I received feedback
16 that no contact could be made, that our means of communications were
18 It was perfectly clear to me, what was going on. I asked a
19 colleague of mine to go to the barracks in plain clothes and to tell
20 Mr. Kljujic that he was supposed to come to my office urgently, which
21 Mr. Kljujic did subsequently, and I told him, Mr. Kljujic, when he
23 "You, as a member of the Presidency, which is part of a
24 collective commander having jurisdiction over the defence of this
25 country, were held captive by the JNA, obviously with the intent for you
1 to be isolated and be blocked in your efforts to try to find a solution
2 to this problem."
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's time to have a break, a
4 20-minute break.
5 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.
8 Ms. Nozica, please proceed.
9 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Bozic, we stopped at the time when Mr. Kljujic went to the
11 JNA barracks, and I would like you to continue, but at the same time I
12 would like to ask you to speak a little bit faster and to be as concise
13 as possible and complete this topic, because time is flying by, and I'm
14 afraid that we won't have enough time to cover other topics.
15 Please go ahead.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness, please.
17 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Bozic, you will start -- can you please start again, because
19 your microphone was not on.
20 A. It was the second day, when the tanks were stopped, the situation
21 in the area was very tense, and that whole day JNA helicopters and planes
22 were over-flying or flying low over the area of Herceg-Bosna, parachutes
23 were dropping in that region; and it could have been quite a serious
24 situation. Mr. Kljujic insisted that Mr. Izetbegovic comes, and then he
25 came on the third day, and then he came to Mostar. He came to my office.
1 Now I'm going to say something publicly that I have never said
2 openly so far. Mr. Izetbegovic, who at that time was with Minister
3 Delimustafic and, I think, with Mr. Stojic, Mr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic,
4 too, who's the president of the Herzegovina SDA, said, and I will try to
5 paraphrase him, in his well-known style, speaking quietly, You know, this
6 is my greatest personal and political risk, greater than the one I had
7 and experienced in prisons during Communism. And then he said that the
8 day before, he had gone to a joint Presidency meeting in Belgrade, the
9 Presidency of Yugoslavia
11 in any of this --
12 MR. SCOTT: I apologise, Your Honour, for interrupting the
13 witness, but given the discussions that we've had in recent days, I must
14 point out to the Chamber none of this is covered in the 65 ter summary
15 for this witness. There's nothing about going into these sorts of
16 matters, this history. This is a complete surprise to the Prosecution.
17 Exactly given the reasons and the points the Chamber has noted in the
18 past days about the necessity of fully adequate summaries that comply
19 with the law, this is a complete surprise and is not covered anywhere in
20 the four summaries that have been provided by the Stojic Defence. We
21 object to this testimony.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, it seems that you
23 are addressing the issue of the intervention of the JNA in Croatia and in
24 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it seems that in the summary, this issue has
25 not been explicitly referred to.
1 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to stress
2 that these events, and specifically this event, the participation of
3 Mr. Bozic, were covered by Mr. Kljujic here on the 9th of October, 2006
4 and Mr. Bozic's name is mentioned on page 8015, line 6.
5 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Sorry, Ms. Nozica. This was not the question.
6 The question was: Where, in your 65 ter information, do you refer to
7 this subject and announce that the witness will talk about it?
8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I stated in the
9 summary that the witness is going to discuss his role in the arming of
10 the Croatian and the Muslim people. The witness, as part of this topic,
11 replies that it is his motive to participate in that was actually this
12 event and another event. So this refers to the 65 ter summary note on
13 the topic of arming of the Croat and Muslim people. The witness himself
14 said that he was motivated by these two events to participate in the
15 arming, and I wanted to say that this first event cannot be a surprise
16 for the Prosecution because Mr. Kljujic spoke about that in the courtroom
17 here and mentioned Mr. Bozic when he was discussing it. For that reason,
18 I believe that, first of all, it's a topic that was announced, and,
19 secondly, it's an event that is familiar to everyone in the courtroom
20 because it was discussed previously.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, you're complaining
22 because you don't have enough time. You've warned the witness because he
23 had to be more specific in his answers. You're talking about something
24 that everybody here has already discussed. I don't think it is necessary
25 for the witness to expand on the fact that the JNA intervene and that it
1 led to different positions at the individual level. I think you'd better
2 ask him, What do you know about the JNA; and then he would have said,
3 well, The JNA intervened. And then you could have asked, Did it have any
4 repercussion on your own participation? And then he would have given you
5 a specific answer. And then you could have moved on to another topic.
6 Mr. Scott.
7 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. I just wanted to put a line
8 under what Judge Trechsel said. The fact of what another witness may
9 have talked about previously, including Mr. Kljujic, is no justification
10 whatsoever for not putting it in the 65 ter summary.
11 Thank you.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Indeed. To follow up on what
13 Mr. Scott has just said, in the 65 ter summary you should have said that
14 Mr. Kljujic -- because Mr. Kljujic had mentioned this, the witness would
15 come and add to what had just been said by Mr. Stojic. You haven't done
17 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I accept your
18 suggestion. It's true that we didn't do that. But as far as I
19 understood things, I asked the witness what motivated him to take part in
20 the arming of the Croatian and the Muslim people, and so this motive was
21 part of that whole topic.
22 I am going to ask for your indulgence and ask the witness to
23 finish off this first topic, if you permit. He did say that there were
24 two events. The first is the situation in Prolom, and the second one was
25 when the JNA was arming the Serbian people. So I'm going to ask him to
1 very briefly complete this topic and explain the second one, and that is
2 as part of his motivation to act in the way that he explained.
3 Q. Witness, you heard I have just -- that is why I was actually
4 trying to speed you up a bit because I understand that your answers on
5 the first topic took up a lot of time; so I would like you to finish very
6 briefly, whether Mr. Izetbegovic addressed the people and what happened
7 after that.
8 A. Thank you very much, but I consider it important to say what
9 Mr. Izetbegovic said in my office then, and that was that
10 General Kadijevic told him that he had nothing to do there.
11 MR. SCOTT: No, I'm sorry, I object. I object to -- my same
12 objection stands. The Chamber's not ruled to the contrary. This has
13 nothing to do with the efforts of the JNA to take away arms or -- we'll
14 agree to that, no dispute in the courtroom whatsoever. There's no
15 disagreement in the courtroom whatsoever; the JNA, in 1991, made efforts
16 to disarm both the Croat and the Muslim side. No dispute about that.
17 Can we move on, and not go on to a topic on which there is complete
19 Thank you.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, there's no disagreement.
21 Everybody agrees the JNA intervened. Now, for Mr. Stojic's Defence, what
22 is important?
23 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is exceptionally
24 important for Mr. Stojic's Defence, now that you're asking, since the
25 indictment does talk about joint criminal enterprise from 1991, that
1 Mr. Stojic, together with this gentleman, took part in the arming of
2 Croat and Muslim people in order to stand up to the JNA and then later to
3 the aggression of the Bosnian Serbs. I believe this to be an extremely
4 important detail that this witness is talking about and which we
5 discussed or mentioned in our summary on the 65 ter list.
6 I do take into account everything that has been said in the
7 courtroom, but I would like to ask the witness to tell us very briefly
8 how all this ended.
9 Q. Did Mr. Izetbegovic address the people? And then we will move to
10 another topic.
11 A. Yes, Mr. Izetbegovic did address --
12 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me. Before the -- I apologise for
13 interrupting interpretation, Your Honour; but I'm going to stand on this
14 point, given the very points that have been raised recently about this,
15 and that is the importance of this matter and getting fully adequate
16 summaries. So I apologise if I'm trying the Chamber's patience. I do
17 stand on this point. That is the point we've made repeatedly. If -- and
18 I'll add this: If it is, as counsel says, exceptionally important, then
19 presumably it was exceptionally important enough to be included in the
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I will confer with my
22 colleagues to see whether counsel can go on with her question about what
23 Mr. Izetbegovic said to the witness.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will ask
1 Ms. Nozica to move on to another issue and to address an issue that has
2 been explicitly referred to in the summary.
3 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
4 Q. On the topic of arming that you undertook together - we're
5 talking about the arming of the Croatian and the Muslim people - very
6 briefly just follow my question. In the events that happened after that,
7 did anything else happen that motivated you? But just please tell us in
8 one sentence. You already did mention that, and the Prosecutor didn't
9 object to that. You said, I will remind you, that the police discovered
10 that the JNA was arming the Serbs in Stolac. Can you please answer if at
11 that time you had contacts with any person, directly or indirectly, who
12 worked on the arming of the Serbian people with weapons from the JNA?
13 Did you have any contacts or did anyone ask you for contacts from the JNA
14 to enable this arming to proceed?
15 A. It wasn't in Stolac, actually. It was in Bileca where the police
16 discovered that the JNA was arming the Serbs in Eastern Herzegovina. And
17 then after this was discovered by the police, the Yugoslav People's Army
18 or, better said, the officers who were in the JNA at the time prevented
19 the police from doing their job, and they never allowed us to complete
20 our police work. These were civilians, it was a civilian vehicle, and
21 the policemen who discovered that recorded that in the truck there were
22 crates with weapons from specific military posts of the Yugoslav People's
23 Army to which this weaponry belonged.
24 Q. Mr. Bozic, these two events which you described, were they
25 directly connected to your decision to proceed with other members of the
1 MUP and the Mostar police with the arming, as you said, of the Muslim and
2 Croat people?
3 A. Well, I didn't answer to the previous part of your question about
4 whether there was anyone who prevented that. Yes, there was a person who
5 did prevent that -- wanted to prevent that, and after that, that person
6 got in touch with me. And then at some point in 1992, I found out that
7 that person was prevented from an inquiry into this whole matter. This
8 was done by somebody who was in the JNA, and his name was
9 Fikret Muslimovic, and he was a colonel.
10 Q. I'm asking you whether these things affected your decision to
11 assist in the arming of Muslims and Croats.
12 A. Yes. I already said that.
13 Q. In relation to this topic that we discussed relating to events or
14 documents --
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'm sorry for
16 interrupting, but you've just confirmed that it was decided to arm the
17 Muslim population and the Croat population because the JNA had armed the
18 Serbs. Who took the decision? Was it you? Who decided?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I didn't understand your
20 question. Who do you mean, when you say, "Who decided?"
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. In the transcript, I read
22 that "it was decided to arm the Muslims and the Croats." One may assume
23 that you were the one who made the decision, you yourself, Mr. Bozic, or
24 maybe other people.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I said -- evidently there's a
1 mistake in the transcript. I said the first time at the beginning and
2 later, and now I'm saying that these two events were something that made
3 me finally decide, and not only me but my other colleagues too, that
4 something needed to be done to arm Croats and Muslims in Bosnia and
6 about the conduct of the then Yugoslav People's Army.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand properly,
8 you -- you, who given those two events, decided to arm the Croats and the
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said that that was my
11 personal decision, and the main persons were -- I mean, who made it
12 possible for the Serbs to get weapons --
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So it was your
14 decision. Nobody else decided for you that you were going to arm the
15 Croats and the Muslims against those who were arming the Serbs. So you
16 alone decided, of your own free will, that you were going to do so; there
17 was no committee, there was no chief or head of anything, you were the
18 one who decided?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We misunderstood each other. At
20 the beginning of my testimony, I said that looking from the outside
21 perhaps it was unprofessional and immoral for someone working in the
22 police, and we all did work in the police, to do something like that and
23 to arm Muslims and Croats; but in view of these two events, I said - and
24 it was a mistake in the transcript earlier - that masks fell, and I said
25 that also before, that the key persons were Mr. Delimustafic, who was the
1 defence minister -- Delimustafic, he was the MUP minister, and also
2 Mr. Stojic.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand properly,
4 because there's a lot at stake here, if I understand properly, you, being
5 in charge of the police, had a perception of the situation at the time,
6 and you made the decision to arm your fellow Muslims and Croats because
7 you had information according to which the JNA was arming the Serbs. And
8 when you made that decision, it wasn't Mr. Boban asking you to make such
9 decision, nor Mr. Stojic, nor Mr. Praljac [as interpreted], nor
10 Mr. Tudjman, nor Mr. Bobekto, nor Mr. Susak, it was you alone who decided
11 to do so?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say that I, myself, made
13 the decision. I accepted to do a part of the work with my colleagues.
14 The decision to provide or secure weapons was Mr. Stojic, who was the
15 deputy -- assistant minister and Mr. Delimustafic, who was the minister.
16 They made the decision, and we agreed to implement that decision.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay, all right. This is
19 Please proceed.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.
21 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Can we take a look at the documents as listed in binder 2D 00288.
23 That's supposed to be the document at the top of the binder, please. Let
24 me know when you find it.
25 A. Can you repeat?
1 Q. 2D 00288.
2 A. I found it.
3 Q. Do you recognise the author of this document?
4 A. This is the gentleman that I made reference to, when I said that
5 I found out from a document dated 1992, that he was the person who
6 prevented the police inquiries as to the illegal arming in Bileca.
7 Q. What is the date of this document, and do you know how
8 Mr. Fikret Muslimovic, in his capacity as a highly-ranking JNA officer,
9 was put into such a position, and do you have any information about his
10 career, his path?
11 A. It is known to me that in Muslim circles, there were frequent
12 discussions about his arrival and about his position. I read several
13 books about that, and I recall that from the book, the war diary of the
14 deputy of staff commander of the Army of BiH, General Stjepan Siber, his
15 memoirs entitled "Lies and Truths," it was stated in that book that
16 Mr. Muslimovic climbed to a very high position in the Muslim forces and
17 ended up in the cabinet of Mr. Izetbegovic.
18 Q. Can you take a look at the bottom part of this page and read out?
19 A. Yes, I can read it out, but I would like to make reference to
20 this first part, making reference to Bileca and the crimes committed by
21 the aggressors there, and the location where the weapons provided to the
22 Serbs by the JNA were disclosed and prevented police forces to undertake
23 inquiries, that all this was done by Mr. Fikret Muslimovic.
24 The latter part of the page that you refer to makes mention --
25 makes mention of something that I saw for the first time in preparation
1 for this testimony, when it speaks about assessment that further increase
2 of tensions may be expected, including possible confrontation between
3 the -- between ARBiH and HVO, it is very important to make the situation
4 between Muslims and the HVO as passive as possible and to influence their
5 transfer from the HVO to the Army of BiH, which brings me back to the
6 events of the 30th of June, 1993.
7 What I personally noticed, when I took a look at this document,
8 was the date, the 16th of April, 1993, which is after the Vance-Owen Plan
9 had been co-signed by Mr. Boban and Mr. Izetbegovic, after an agreement
10 reached at New York
11 Akmadzic, Boban, and some others. What struck me as significant
12 concerning this document is on the 19th of April, 1993, at Medjugorje,
13 there was a meeting convened between Generals Petkovic and
14 General Halilovic, with the presence of General Morillon, on commencing
15 the preparatory work for the establishment of joint command of HVO and
16 Army of BiH.
17 Q. Thank you. Can we take a look at another document, 2D 00033. It
18 is the next document in your binder. Could you comment on it?
19 A. Yes, I can see it. This explains how weapons were forwarded from
20 the central warehouse of the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina to Mostar, and
21 I can see the very well-known-to-me signature of Mr. Stojic.
22 Q. Is this a document which corroborates part of your testimony
23 explaining how these weapons ended up where they ended up?
24 A. Exactly that.
25 Q. Then let's take a look at 2D 00976.
1 A. I can see it.
2 Q. Very briefly, we'll explain what this is. This is an excerpt
3 from a book authored by Dr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic. Was this gentleman
4 included in that activity, in your opinion?
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Excuse me for going back to the
6 former document. This is a very complex issue, and we might get lost
7 very easily.
8 There is a document which seems to address the issue of weapons.
9 This document comes from Sarajevo
10 goes to Mostar. "CSB
11 Now, I'm trying to understand what this document means. You seem to know
12 what it means, so I'd like you to confirm my conclusions about this
14 This document bears the date of the 20th of August, 1991. At
15 that time, were instructions sent from Sarajevo so that weapons be given
16 to the population? What's your answer?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document shows that weapons
18 left the central warehouse of the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo
19 specifies the type of weapons, the quantities of weapons, and states that
20 the Centre for Security in Mostar, or the police in Mostar, is the
21 recipient of the shipment. As I stated at the beginning of my testimony,
22 this was the only so-called legal or legitimate way for the weapons to
23 come from Sarajevo
24 Muslims and the Croats from Mostar.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Therefore, if I understand
1 properly, in 1991 in Sarajevo
2 president of the Presidency, was it the Presidency itself? Who decided,
3 in Sarajevo
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, a key role was played by
5 Minister Delimustafic and his assistant, Stojic, and I believe that
6 everything was done with the cognisance of the Muslim and Croatian
7 members of the Sarajevo
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This Minister Delimustafic, was
9 he a Muslim?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And so these weapons were
12 distributed to Muslims and Croats?
13 Very well, thank you. I'm starting to understand better. Thank
15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the following document
16 corroborates that. I wanted to work through those documents together
17 with the witness to make it perfectly clear - we have an expert - excerpt
18 from a book 2D 00976. This is a book authored by
19 Dr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic entitled "Bosnian Muslim Political Show-down."
20 Q. You knew Mr. Hadziosmanovic. Could you tell us first whether he
21 played a role in the distribution of weapons which reached that place in
22 the explained manner?
23 A. Yes, I personally know Dr. Hadziosmanovic. I read his book, and
24 he was another person who was included in this project.
25 Q. Mr. Bozic, on page 66 -- we do not have the time to read through
1 everything that is stated there, but on page 66, please read the sentence
2 which starts:
3 "The police reserve forces, by being activated ..." This would
4 be the last page, in the English translation, penultimate paragraph.
5 Could you read out?
6 A. "Reserve force of the police, by being activated, allowed for
7 large quantities of weapons to be procured, as well as means of
8 communication which were, per establishment, distributed to the reserve
9 police force, the Patriotic League and the Croatian defenders. A large
10 contribution to the organisation of the reserve police force and the
11 Patriotic League and the ranks of Croatian defences was provided by
12 Alija Delimustafic, Avdo Hebib, Slobodan Bozic, Jusuf Pusina,
13 Bruno Stojic, Brana Kvesic, Ivica Lucic, Viktor Stojcic, Zikrija Djonko,
14 Sejo Celebic, Ornica Djukic, Petar Zelenika, and Franjo Doko. These were
15 Muslim and Croatian officials at the then regional MUP at Mostar and
16 employees of the MUP of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
17 Q. So, Mr. Bozic, this excerpt from this book corroborates that
18 high-ranking Muslim and Croatian officials took part in that, both at MUP
19 Mostar and the MUP of the government of the Republic of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?
21 A. That's correct. I've already stated this to be so.
22 Q. Now I'm going to ask you to go through -- briefly through some
23 documents which are supposed to corroborate what you stated.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this seems to be an
25 important document, and I have to ask you an additional question.
1 This book was written by Dr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic. I guess he's
2 a Muslim.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This book was published in
5 September 2006 in Mostar. If we are to believe page 3 in the English
6 translation, we observe that -- I don't need months or years to get
7 prepared. You know, it just takes me a few seconds and I understand
8 everything. I discover that after the attack in April 1991 in Pitovic
9 [phoen], a JNA attack, there was a meeting of all the SDA leaders of the
10 Capljina and Jablanica municipalities, et cetera; and then we can see
11 that at the level of the Patriotic League, a force was created. If you
12 read further, you realise that rifles or weapons were brought by Croat
13 friends from the Citluk Crisis Staff. You turn over to the next page and
14 you realise that, in fact, Croats and Muslims are very much together,
15 that an entity is being created that there's going to be an independent
16 battalion to be set up with -- two at Tuplina [phoen], and also there's
17 going to be a battalion and the HVO command in Mostar is going to be the
18 Petar Zelenika Battalion. So just reading these few pages, one gets the
19 impression that back then, Muslims and Croats are united against the
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could tell you that the Croats
22 and the Muslims were united, standing together then, against anybody who
23 jeopardised their survival there.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, it was important to know
25 that. Thank you.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Bozic, let's go back to page 66 of the book. I'd like to ask
4 you another question.
5 Two paragraphs above, mention is made of the government's
6 decision on activating the reserve police force. Could you recall, since
7 you worked at the MUP in Mostar, when was this and what were the reasons
8 for this happening?
9 A. Which part should I read?
10 Q. No, no, no, I didn't instruct you to read. I'm explaining that
11 this is the same book, a paragraph which His Honour Antonetti read out to
12 you. My question is: After the reservists came to Mostar in 1991, did
13 the MUP of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
14 the reserve police force because this is the topic of this book?
15 A. This was only logical, given the circumstances, the situation,
16 out on the ground.
17 Q. Thank you very much. Let's go through some documents which
18 demonstrate your positions and posts that you held from the beginning of
19 your engagement with the HVO and the Department of Defence. First take a
20 look at the document P 00921.
21 A. I've found it.
22 Q. These are minutes from the 15th session of the Croatian Defence
23 Council of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, dated 17th of
24 December. Please take a look at the last page, which reads -- it's under
25 an asterisk which reads:
1 "In the Commission for the Relations with UNPROFOR, apart from
2 Mr. Zuko, S. Bozic and Mr. Sivric are going to be appointed."
3 A. Yes, this is what I testified about at the beginning. This is my
4 first appointment which I had within the HVO of the HZ-HB.
5 Q. Now let's take a look at document P 00924, which follows, and
6 this is a decision on the establishment of the Commission.
7 A. I can see it. This is exactly what we made reference to just
8 now. This decision specifies the jurisdiction of that commission.
9 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, and we will discuss that a bit
10 later, what those duties were? And if necessary, we can read it.
11 A. That we are setting up cooperation and relations with official
12 representatives, that we're representing the HZ-HB, that we are
13 coordinating the works of other organs and body with the UNPROFOR, and we
14 are doing other tasks and assignments in this area. I did read this out,
15 but it wasn't quite correct.
16 Q. All right. Thank you very much. That is enough.
17 Perhaps we can look at the next document. This is 2D 00978.
18 A. Yes. This is Mr. Stojic's proposal to appoint me as the deputy
19 head, and it was issued on the 13th of January, 1993.
20 Q. Let's look at the next page of that document.
21 A. This is a decision published in the Official Gazette, where it is
22 stated that I am being appointed as deputy head.
23 Q. All right. There's no need to look at this document any longer.
24 We can look at the next one. That's P 0037 -- P 1137. It is the session
25 of the Croatian Defence Council of the 15th of January, the 18th session
1 of the council.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
3 continues] ... understand why Ms. Nozica goes speedily, but I'm looking
4 at your appointment on the 30th of January, 1993. You were appointed by
5 Mr. Stojic. But on the left-hand side, I can see proposal accepted by
6 the HVO HZ-HB at 11.00 on the 15th of January. During a session. I am
7 now checking the B/C/S version to see whether that mentions also figures
9 Witness, does this mean that appointments -- well, with regard to
10 appointments, does it mean that something suggests that someone is
11 appointed, somebody like you, for instance; but it had to be approved by
12 a college of people?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The initiative for any appointment
14 would go from the organ that it referred to --
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear the witness because
16 of rustling.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but the decision on the
18 appointment was adopted by the HVO HZ-HB.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, this collective body could
20 have said, No, we don't agree; and then Mr. Stojic would have been forced
21 to suggest somebody else ?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is possible, also.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President, one intervention. P 00924 has been
24 mistranslated, if you see on the very first part, which is:
25 "I hereby pass the following decision," and you see down at the
1 signature line it would be Jadranko Prlic. It would give the impression
2 that it was Prlic's decision that he passed it. I'm told by my
3 colleague, Mrs. Ana Tomanovic, that there's no such thing as "I hereby
4 pass." It just says, "Pass the following decision," in other words the
5 collective body passes and not "I hereby," meaning Dr. Jadranko Prlic,
6 and I think this is an area of contention.
7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I must admit that I did not
8 understand --
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please. It might
10 be good to read the text in Croatian, and then the interpreters would
11 translate it.
12 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but
13 I think that my colleague Mr. Karnavas reacted to P 00924. This is the
14 decision on the establishment of the Commission or Office of the HVO
15 HZ-HB on liaison with the UNPROFOR. So this is document P 00924. I
16 didn't quite understand what the remark was about, but it doesn't matter.
17 The witness can read it out, and the interpreters can then translate it.
18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Witness, if you would be so kind and just read
19 the first paragraph, the introduction of document 0924. Some of it seems
20 to be illegible. Don't worry about that. Just skip it or say that two
21 or three words, or whatever, are illegible.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before entering the courtroom, I
23 asked the usher if I'm able to use the marker, which helps me to see
24 better, so now I'm going to try to read it better:
25 "On the basis of Article 19 of the statutory decision about the
1 temporary organisation of executive authority and administration in the
2 area of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, at the session of the
3 17th of December, 1992 --"
4 To tell you the truth, all I can see here are the letters
5 d-o-n-o-s, so I don't know if it refers to the singular or the plural.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The French booth says "donos,"
7 "takes or makes the decision to," so there's a decision between "it is
8 adopted" or, "I adopt."
9 Witness, if we understand this, Mr. Prlic decided to appoint
10 three individuals, including you, number 2, to his commission, but does
11 this decision have to be adopted, endorsed, by the collective body during
12 this session that took place on the 17th of December, 1992?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the preamble of the decision,
14 I can see the word "session of the 17th of December, 1992
15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I can assist the Trial Chamber and
16 the witness. We have already looked at this transcript from the meeting,
17 and this is P 00921; and it can be seen that the decision was adopted at
18 the meeting of the HVO HZ-HB. Is there anything that is disputable
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, look, we're going to shed
21 some light on this thanks to you, Witness.
22 When you were appointed, was your appointment the outcome of the
23 power invested in one single individual or in a collective body? This is
24 a very clear question, you see.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm going to answer very clearly.
1 These decisions, this one and any other decision, is adopted by
2 the collective body, and it is signed by the person who is the president
3 of that collective body.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We need to avoid any mistake in
5 interpretation. You said that the decision was made by a collective
6 body, and it was signed by the person presiding over the collective body.
7 At least that has the merit of being clear. You are a lawyer. You were
8 a prosecutor and a judge. Therefore, what you say can be understood.
9 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 I would just like to go back for a moment to document 2D 00978.
11 It says here: "Proposal for appointment," signed by Mr. Stojic.
12 Q. And you, Witness, explained that Mr. Stojic proposed that and
13 that the HVO HZ-HB adopted that decision. Did I understand you
15 A. Yes, that is exactly what I said.
16 Q. Let's look how this decision was adopted by the HVO HZ-HB. Let's
17 look at P 1137, and we can look at a paragraph marked number 7. So, as I
18 said, this is the 18th session of the Croatian Defence Council. Under 7,
19 it says:
20 "Upon the proposal of the implementation of the law on the legal
21 profession on the territory HZ-HB during the war."
22 Mr. Bozic, I'm going to ask you to look at the next document,
23 P 69. This is a document of the 1st of December, 1993, and it is the
24 decision appointing you as the head of the Office for Cooperation with
1 A. Yes, that is the decision on my appointment which I referred to
2 at the beginning when I spoke about why I continued to work after
3 Mr. Stojic had left the Defence Department, with the remark that I was
4 still continuing to work on my duties at the Personnel Administration.
5 Q. All right. Let's look at the next document, P 770 -- 7790.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] P 6696 might be interesting.
7 THE INTERPRETER: 6996, interpreter's correction and apologies.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There it is.
9 This is a document appointing you to the position of the chief of
10 the Cooperation Office with the UNPROFOR, so this is important. In the
11 preamble, it can be seen that, in fact, it's not Mr. Prlic who appointed
12 you. It was the government, the HR-HB government. Look at the preamble.
13 Is that what the preamble says? Apparently it was discussed by the
14 government on the 1st of December, 1993.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is what I said about the
16 previous appointment. All appointments, as I said, are made at the
17 sessions of the HVO HZ-HB, and now at the government meetings of the
18 Croatian Republic
19 appointment itself is signed by Mr. Prlic.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are we to understand that it
21 was Mr. Prlic who drafted the text or just signed it to authenticate the
22 appointment decided upon by the government?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree, yes, it's part of his
24 authority, he's at the head of that body, but the actual decision is made
25 by the collective body.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
3 Q. The next document is P 07790, where you are being -- actually,
4 the decision on the establishment of the Committee for Cooperation with
5 the United Nations is adopted. You're one of the members. Can you
6 please tell us whether you, as a member of this committee, and while
7 working in it, did it have any important activities in 1994?
8 A. Well, perhaps -- no, as far as I can remember, we had two or
9 three meetings. That's what I remember attending.
10 Q. Let's look at the next document. This is 2D 1006.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. This is a pass granting the transport of material and equipment.
13 It's dated the 30th of June, 1992, and it's signed by assistant to the
14 commander for logistics, Bruno Stojic. Is this absolutely in accordance
15 with what you said, Mr. Bozic, that before being appointed as the head of
16 the Defence Department, Mr. Stojic worked as assistant to the commander
17 for logistics at the Main Staff?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you please look at the next document. This is document
20 P 00297. And this is an appointment of Mr. Stojic as head of the Defence
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Let's look at the next document. This is P 006583. And this is
24 a press release dated the 10th of November, 1993, referring to members of
25 the -- members of government of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna
1 A. This is what I said at the beginning, from which -- and then from
2 that point in time Mr. Stojic no longer came to the Defence Department,
3 and about the way he found out about this appointment.
4 Q. All right. And the last document in this first part, this is
5 2D 00416. It's a protocol signed by Mr. Jukic and by Mr. Bruno Stojic
6 five days after this press release.
7 A. I said at the beginning that I was not present at the signing and
8 I did not see Mr. Stojic then. This is the first time that I am seeing
9 the protocol, but it does confirm that it was the protocol about the
10 hand-over of duty between Mr. Jukic and Mr. Stojic.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bozic. You've already said at the beginning of
12 your testimony that on arrival at the Defence Department, you took part
13 in the drafting of some establishment documents?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I'm now going to ask you specifically if in any way you
16 participated in the adoption of regulations on the armed forces of the
17 HZ-HB, adopted at the Presidency meeting of the 3rd of July, 1992.
18 A. No, because I came to the department in September 1992.
19 Q. You also said that you participated in the drafting of a revised
20 text about the armed forces of the --
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the date.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there was a consolidated
23 text, pursuant to a section which was actually just added on, and there
24 was some very minor changes in terms of the previously-adopted documents.
25 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Well, let us now prepare for the next set of documents by saying
2 that after the president of the HZ-HB, in September 1992, decided --
3 adopted a decision on establishing the Defence Department, and he
4 referred to the sections which would be part of it and what their duties
5 would be, and you worked on a document which was a document of the
6 Defence Department.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you please tell us which parts of the documents you actually
9 worked on?
10 A. You are talking about the regulations of the armed forces?
11 Q. No, I'm talking about the organisational documents of the
12 Defence Department.
13 A. I said in the beginning that I worked on the decision about the
14 establishment of the Defence Department pursuant to a decision on the
15 basic founding, which was adopted by Mr. Boban.
16 Q. Sir, let us look at the following documents. These are documents
17 P 00289. It's a regulation on the armed forces of the Croatian Community
18 of Herceg-Bosna. I'm going to ask you to look at Article 10 of this
19 rule, and if you can tell me, pursuant to this Article 10, paragraph 1,
20 the duties of the Defence Department were referred to.
21 A. It says here that the Defence Department performs professional
22 and administrative assignments from defence and security, and then it
23 refers to 25 specific tasks.
24 Q. According to your understanding, do these 25 points represent the
25 professional and administrative tasks in the domain of defence and
2 A. Yes, I believe so.
3 Q. Let us now look at document 2D 01262. These are minutes from the
4 fifth session of the Presidency of the Croatian Community of
5 Herceg-Bosna. You were not present at this session?
6 A. No. You can see that the Defence Department was represented by
7 Mr. Bozo Rajic.
8 Q. Now I'm going to look at paragraph 17 or item 17 of the agenda
9 where it says that the regulations on the armed forces was adopted at
10 this meeting.
11 A. Yes, the proposals were adopted for the amendment and changes of
12 these regulations, and Mr. Stojic discusses this -- I'm sorry, Mr. Buntic
13 talks about the adoption of this regulation, describing that the
14 amendments specifically refer to mobilisation, which were not previously
16 Q. You're talking about comments on page 17; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. This is page 14 in the Croatian and 16 in the English?
19 A. No. On my copy, it is page 15.
20 Q. It begins, actually, on page 14; am I correct?
21 A. Yes, but what I read about Mr. Buntic and the regulation of armed
22 forces was on the 15th.
23 Q. Okay. So we can conclude that the regulation on armed forces was
24 adopted on that session. Previously we heard that you had taken part in
25 drafting it with lawyers from the Justice Department, and now let's take
1 a look at Article 10 in that regulation. Could you tell the Chamber
2 whether this article remained unchanged?
3 A. You mean the Official Gazette?
4 Q. I apologise, apologise. It's P 00588, document P 00588,
5 regulation on the armed forces, my mistake, dated 17th October 1993
6 A. Which page, please?
7 Q. Page 7. There are some parts which do not refer to the
9 A. I find it --
10 Q. Fine. Is that the regulation?
11 A. This is the consolidated version of the regulation with the
12 supplements and amendments that we discussed.
13 Q. Please find for me Article 10.
14 A. I've found it.
15 Q. Could you tell the Chamber whether it was amended or supplemented
16 compared to the previous version, and does it specify the tasks of the
17 Defence Department?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Mr. Bozic, now I'm going to ask you, since you said that you took
20 part in drafting the consolidated version, to explain to the Chamber
21 Article 34. What was the proposal that came from you to the Presidency,
22 and whether it remained intact in the version that we can see here?
23 A. When I was comparing the two, there is only one change, saying
24 that certain appointments, instead of HVO HZ-HB, is done by head of
25 department. But taking a look at the integral text of Article 34,
1 obviously errors occurred when the Official Gazette was printed. It
2 would only be logical, and it's clear when taking a look at the previous
3 version of that article, that the original text should read:
4 "Commanders of the armed forces shall be appointed and relieved
5 by ...," and then, colon: "President of the HZ-HB, commanders of --"
6 full stop. "Commanders of brigades and high-ranking officers," comma,
7 not colon but comma, "head of the Defence Department and commanders
8 authorised to do so by him. Other officers and commanders, junior
9 officers and military personnel ...," et cetera, et cetera.
10 So the problem that arises is the part which discusses commanders
11 of brigades and high-ranking officers. It shouldn't contain a comma, but
12 a full stop, and the comma should be after the "President of HZ-HB," and
13 "the commanders appointed by him," there should be a comma, and to be
14 followed by "other officers and commanders, junior officers, and military
15 personnel shall also be appointed to posts of officers, junior officers
16 in the armed forces."
17 Q. Mr. Bozic, if I understand you correctly, the president of the
18 HZ-HB, as you construed it, appoints commanders of brigades and
19 high-ranking officers; am I correct?
20 A. Yes, that's correct, and this is where the full stop should be.
21 Q. And then head of the Defence Department and officers --
22 A. I apologise.
23 Q. Head of Defence Department and commanders authorised by him will
24 appoint other officers, commanders, junior officers?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. Mr. Bozic, could you tell us how this mistake occurred? As I
2 understood you, you prepared a consolidated, clear version of the text
3 and sent it for approval to the Presidency. Could you -- and then these
4 mistakes occurred. Can you explain how?
5 A. Well, at that time we did not have any floppy discs or
6 information communication technology and equipment that we have today.
7 Our consolidated draft was written on an electric typewriter, and, as
8 such, it went to the printing shop. And then at the print shop, they had
9 to transcribe that into their system, and I'm sure that the preparation
10 for printing was when those mistakes occurred. And this can be verified
11 if you take a look at the provision of Article 34 in the basic regulation
12 on armed forces and compare it to this one.
13 Q. When you say "basic regulation," you're referring to the
14 July 7th 1992
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. That's P 00789; isn't that correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Now I'm going to ask you, furthermore: Mr. Bozic, did the
19 Personnel Administration, which was part of your civilian sector, did
20 they work on preparing on documents for the appointment and removal of
21 commanders in the armed forces?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who were appointed and dismissed by Mr. Stojic?
24 A. Yes, this was done by us.
25 Q. Did he perform the appointments and removals in the way that you
1 described, in the way that you interpreted the provision of Article 34?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Please take a look at the provision of Article 30 of this
4 regulation, and then we will leave it be.
5 In Article 30: "In the performance of tasks within his remit,
6 commander in chief of the armed forces adopts directives, orders
8 What we're interested in is paragraph 2: "Supreme commander of
9 the armed forces may delegate certain tasks of leading and commanding the
10 armed forces to the head of the Defence Department."
11 So very specifically, I'm asking you this: Did you see a single
12 document where the president of the HZ-HB delegate to the head of Defence
13 Department any part of his tasks relating to the use of armed forces?
14 A. I've never seen a single one.
15 Q. Have you seen any document signed by Mr. Stojic which, by its
16 content, would represent the commanding of armed forces or the use of
17 armed forces?
18 A. I've never seen a single one.
19 Q. Mr. Bozic, let's take a look at document P 00586. Could you
20 explain to the Chamber, please, what it's all about?
21 A. This is a decision on the basis of the organisation of the
22 Defence Department of the Croatian Defence Council of the
23 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, adopted on the 17th of October, 1992
24 by Mr. Mate Boban.
25 Q. Mr. Bozic, when it was adopted, you had occasion to read it?
1 A. That's correct, because I worked together with my colleagues, on
2 the basis of this decision, on the decision of the establishment and
3 structure of the Defence Department.
4 Q. What is in paragraph 1 is not contentious, but I would like to
5 mind your memory with respect to paragraph 2. It reads attached to the
6 head are a military council. Do you recall this military council being
7 established at any point in time?
8 A. No, never.
9 Q. What about the chief inspectorate?
10 A. Never.
11 Q. In administrative and technical terms, the head will be assisted
12 by the cabinet of the head and general affairs and information unit as a
13 separate organisational unit. Please, Mr. Bozic, tell us, was there any
14 cabinet of the head of department?
15 A. No, there was no cabinet. We wanted to establish one, but given
16 the problems in terms of employing the right people, it was never
18 Q. Was there any general affairs and information system
19 department -- office?
20 A. No, there was one person who dealt with the computer
21 introduction, the information technology, not information system. It was
22 being done in 1993.
23 Q. There is a deputy to the head, who is in charge of the civilian
24 sector directly, which contains organisational units. Mr. Bozic, in
25 January 1993, were you appointed to that position of deputy?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Could you please tell us, since we have listed administrations
3 within the civilian sector -- I will be specific. The Administration for
4 Mobilisation and Military Preparation, when did it start working?
5 A. No, it wasn't there at the beginning. It started work at the
6 beginning of June 1993, when Mr. Dobroslav Barbaric was appointed to that
8 Q. What about the civilian protection headquarters; was it ever
10 A. No, never.
11 Q. Never?
12 A. There were discussions whether civilian protection or civilian
13 defence should be under the Ministry of the Interior.
14 Q. What about the Administration for Budget or Budgeting?
15 A. It was never established.
16 Q. What about the Administration for Legal Affairs?
17 A. Never.
18 Q. Personnel Administration?
19 A. Mr. Stojic and I found that administration when we arrived. It
20 was established in May 1992. We took the personnel from the Personnel
21 Administration when the Defence Department started working.
22 Q. We will come to the reports of work for 1992-1993. We will be
23 able to read what all the administrations subordinated to you did.
24 Mr. Bozic, let's take a look at the next document, 2D 00567.
25 Could you please explain --
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'd like to put an
2 administrative question to you.
3 Several of us in this courtroom took part in a lot of meetings in
4 the past. We know how things work. As far as you can remember, did
5 Mr. Stojic have meetings with the various people, as mentioned in the
6 document, as a deputy? Were there meetings which you attended? Of
7 course, there were, but did you organise meetings to take stock of the
8 situation with the various people in charge?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no specific or special
10 meetings with heads of administrations. We had a body which we called a
11 college, attended by assistant ministers, representatives of the
12 Main Staff, I myself, and heads of certain administrations.
13 Your Honours, as you had occasion to see and as I said, out of
14 all the administrations listed in this regulation, the only one which
15 functioned when this was established was the Personnel Administration,
16 performing tasks which do not fall within the remit of a typical
17 personnel administration, but rather working on welfare issues.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I got you right, within his
19 department or ministry, Mr. Stojic was not trying to convene meetings
20 with the various people in charge to address problems or to make
21 decisions or to implement the policy which was outlined by the
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to be as precise in my
24 answer as possible. As far as the administrations made reference to
25 here, no, there were none; but we had an informal body which we called a
1 college, attended by assistants to Mr. Stojic, a representative of the
2 Main Staff, heads of certain administrations, and I, as the deputy. As
3 far as administrations referred to right now, it was impossible to meet
4 them because they were never established.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This college you're talking
6 about, where representatives from the headquarters were, during the
7 meetings of this college were you talking about the military situation?
8 Did you explain to everybody that, and this is an example I'm taking,
9 that the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was carrying out a breakthrough
10 and that it was going to have consequences, in terms of refugees, for
11 instance, that, We had to try and oppose such a breakthrough using
12 weapons and deploying military units. Is that the kind of things you
13 were talking about, or were you talking about something different?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we never discussed, at our
15 college meeting, military operations that the army was taking or was
16 going to undertake, but we discussed administrative and expert issues, we
17 discussed matters of structure or organisation within the department, or
18 documents and acts we were supposed to forward to our superiors.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One technical question. You
20 had a phone?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is it a single-line telephone
23 or was it a telephone with several keys, and by pressing one key, for
24 instance, you could have direct access to General Petkovic?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there was no such
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Did you have a
3 direct line with Mr. Boban?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think no. I think that the
5 communications system may seem strange to you today, but we had a system
6 of communications which was barely functional. It was very difficult to
7 maintain it and to keep its functionality.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
9 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it would be useful for
10 me to know when I was supposed to finish. I hope --
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Maybe we could have the break
12 now, since it's 25 to 6.00. We'll have a 25-minute break -- 20-minute
14 --- Recess taken at 5.38 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may proceed, Ms. Nozica.
17 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Bozic, I'm going to ask you to look at the next document,
19 2D 00567. And can you explain to the Trial Chamber what sort of a
20 document this is?
21 A. This is a decision on the basic principles of organisation of the
22 Defence Department adopted by Mr. Mate Boban, and as the word says, it
23 talks about the principles of the organisation of that department, what
24 that should be.
25 Q. Mr. Bozic, I would like -- this is something that we already
1 discussed, this decision. This P 00586. Let's look at this other
2 document, and that is 00567.
3 A. I'm sorry, this is my mistake. This is a decision on the
4 internal organisation of the Defence Department. I was talking about the
5 wrong document. I said that that was practically the first document that
6 I worked on when I came to the department, and the decision regulates the
7 internal organisation within the actual Defence Department.
8 Q. Mr. Bozic, in paragraph 2, item 2 of this document, it says --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please wait until the
10 interpreters see on the screen where she's reading from.
11 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] "Chief of administration for the
12 defence affairs and mobilisation, budget administration, civilian
13 protection, staff legal affairs administration, personnel administration,
14 and welfare administration manage the work of those administrations and
15 answer for their work to the deputy head."
16 A. Yes.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer.
18 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
19 Q. It says in this decision that a special organisation was drafted
20 for the Main Staff and that is an integral part of this decision.
21 Mr. Bozic, did you work, first of all, on that organisation?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. And did you ever see that structure?
24 A. No, I didn't work on the organisation of the Main Staff, and I
25 never saw it, because the Main Staff had its own administration for
1 organisation within the Main Staff.
2 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour. I apologise to counsel for
3 the interruption. I thought I heard an intervention by the interpreters,
4 asking for a certain answer to be repeated, but perhaps I was the only
5 one. Thank you.
6 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you to my learn
7 friend Mr. Scott. You are not the only one, actually. I was just told
8 the same by Mr. Khan.
9 Q. So when I asked you if you -- when I quoted paragraph 2, if these
10 jobs for which these personnel persons were responsible to the deputy
11 head, can you please tell us what you answered?
12 A. Yes, those are these jobs, and it's the same thing that I talked
13 about that is contained in the decision on the basic organisation, and
14 these heads were response -- chiefs were responsible to me as the deputy
15 head of the Defence Department.
16 Q. I asked you if you had worked on the structure and organisation
17 of the Main Staff, and you answered that you didn't, and my second
18 question was whether you saw that document before.
19 A. No, I didn't.
20 Q. Mr. Bozic, let us now move to the next decision, and that is
21 P 2477. It's a decision. Can you explain what this is about?
22 A. This decision was adopted in May 1993, and what particularly it
23 refers to this part of the civilian sector that I was heading is that
24 here a new special administration is being introduced, an administration
25 which did exist before, but it was within the administration, and it was
1 working on the duties that I had already described.
2 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bozic, can you now tell us -- we've seen the
3 internal organisation of the Defence Department in the previous
4 documents. Which documents regulated the position of the Defence
5 Department within the HVO HZ-HB?
6 A. This was a statutory decision, so it was regulated by a
7 basic-founding document.
8 Q. Mr. Bozic, can we look at that decision? This is P 00303.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That is a decision which you say regulates the decision of the
11 Defence Department. Was there any other decision that was adopted that
12 was more specific about the duties and assignments of the
13 Defence Department within the HVO HZ-HB?
14 A. All right. As a lawyer, I must say that this is the basic act,
15 and everything else that arises from that was adopted pursuant to this
16 basic document. More or less, if we were to say that that would be some
17 sort of sub-regulation, and within that structure, the commission was
18 also working of the HVO HZ-HB.
19 Q. Can you look in your binder at 1D 00001.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you please look at Article 9. Does Article 9 actually refer
22 to the assignments that were in the jurisdiction of the Defence
24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Counsel, I think you have made a mistake when
25 you called the number. You called it, as it is here, "1D 0001," but it
1 is 1D 00101, I suppose.
2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can see it on the
3 screen, so evidently I have called the proper document, and that is
4 00001, four zeros, 1.
5 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. Then the mistake seems to be in the
6 binder. Okay, it's clear.
7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Okay, it's clear. Your D's look like an O very
9 often, and you forgot the four O's, which is quite a lot to forget even
10 if it's only O's. That's why I was misled. I'm sorry.
11 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. I am
12 going to warn my case manager to write more clearly so that we avoid
13 confusion in the future.
14 Q. Have you found it, Mr. Bozic?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In Article 9, I repeat my question: Are the duties of the
17 Defence Department stated, or the duties that it should perform, because
18 this was adopted on the 15th of May, 1992? So my question would be: Are
19 these those assignments that the Defence Department actually executed?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And my next question is whether these are the same duties which
22 are in the regulations on the armed forces in Article 10, which are
23 supposed to be jobs under the jurisdiction of the Defence Department?
24 A. Well, I don't want to compare the two texts right now, but in
25 principle I can reply that the two texts have more or less the same
2 Q. I'm going to change my topics, which would generally be the
3 reports about the work or the work programme drafted by the Defence
4 Department. First of all, I'm going to ask you if you recall that the
5 Defence Department made any kind of proposal for a work programme or a
6 programme of work.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And how was this work programme drafted?
9 A. In the technical sense, all the sectors would submit their
10 programmes of work, and then there would always in the report be a
11 section which had to do with the Main Staff and the Information Service.
12 There would be a separate section for that. And then when all these
13 proposals from the sectors were received about their work programmes,
14 then we would make a summary which would be sent to the HVO HZ-HB.
15 Q. Mr. Bozic, can you please tell me how the reports on the Defence
16 Department's work were drafted?
17 A. In the same way, when we would receive the reports on the work of
18 each individual sector, who did what, then on the basis of their reports
19 and -- we would make a summary report that would be submitted to the HVO
21 Q. Can you remember, please, what you specifically did, in terms of
22 these reports? Did you have to do something in the sector where you were
23 or who, in the end, made this summary of all the reports from all the
25 A. In the beginning, in my civilian sector, we only had the
1 Personnel Administration, so then they would draft their report, which
2 would then be incorporated into a joint Defence Department report. And
3 as I said at the beginning, the president -- the Cabinet of President
4 Stojic [as interpreted] was not working, so that is something that I
5 would actually work on with my colleagues from the
6 Personnel Administration.
7 Q. Mr. Bozic, you said that these reports were submitted to the HVO
8 HZ-HB. Were you ever present at a government session or actually at the
9 HVO HZ-HB when these reports were adopted?
10 A. Yes, I think that I did attend some of these sessions.
11 Q. According to your recollection, were these proposals discussed?
12 A. Yes, the submitted reports were discussed in the same way as any
13 other item on the agenda for the meeting.
14 Q. I would now like you to look at some documents, Mr. Bozic. The
15 first document would be P 48900 -- P 04890.
16 A. I see it.
17 Q. All right. Can you please tell me what this document is about?
18 A. This is -- these are the minutes of a meeting of the HVO HZ-HB
19 which was held on the 8th of September, 1992.
20 Q. Can you look at item 7, whether there is any reference to the
21 programme of work here in this paragraph? Behind or after the agenda,
22 there is Article 7. Do you see it?
23 A. Yes. It says, in the agenda, basic elements for drafting a HVO
24 plan of work -- plan of work of the HVO, the departments and the
1 Q. Mr. Bozic, can we look at the next document. That should be
2 document 1D 00110.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you please tell me what sort of a document this is?
5 A. This is the standing orders of the HVO of the Croatian Community
6 of Herceg-Bosna which regulates its work.
7 Q. Can you please look at Article 8 of this document and tell us
8 whether it was established -- in what manner are the programmes of work
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right, thank you very much. Let's look at the next document,
12 Mr. Bozic, and that is document P 00518.
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me, Ms. Nozica. If I look at page 75,
15 line 10 to 13, your question ends with:
16 "In what manner are the programmes of work drafted?"
17 And the answer is: "Yes."
18 That is a bit surprising.
19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm going to put that
20 question again.
21 Q. In what way were the programmes of work drafted? Evidently, we
22 have some sort of mistake here, either in my question or in your answer.
23 I asked you in what manner were the programmes of work drafted. Listen
24 to my question first.
25 How were the proposals of the programme for work drafted in the
1 Defence Department?
2 A. I said that it was done in the way that each sector would make
3 their own proposal of work, and that would be submitted to the head. And
4 after receiving all the proposals, a summary proposal would be made.
5 That would be a joint proposal of the work, which would then be submitted
6 to the HVO HZ-HB for further procedure.
7 Q. I'm going to ask you now to look at document 1D 00110. I'm going
8 to put a precise question to you. Was there a duty on the part of the
9 Defence Department to draft programmes of work pursuant to this article?
10 A. Yes, I already answered that question. I think that there was
11 some problem in the interpretation, because my answer did refer to this
12 specific Article 28 that you put your question on.
13 Q. Let's look at document P 00518.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. This is a proposal of the work programme until the end of 1992.
16 Mr. Bozic, do you recall whether this is one of those documents that were
17 drafted in the Defence Department?
18 A. Yes. This is practically our first obligation that has to do
19 with the previous HVO HZ-HB session that we looked at before, so we are
20 submitting a report on the implemented activities pursuant to meetings
21 from the session of the 7th of September, 1992.
22 Q. Mr. Bozic, can we now look at document P 00518. Actually, it's a
23 document that we were already looking at. Can you please look at
24 document P 00128?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you tell us what this is about? Can you remember what this
2 is about?
3 A. This is a report on the work of -- during 1992 that we did, and
4 we submitted it to the HVO HZ-HB.
5 Q. And now let's look at page 6 in English and Croatian, just
6 briefly. And can you please tell us whether those parts that you drafted
7 are cited in the report? Actually, those parts that were subordinated to
8 you, the Personnel Administration, is being referred to here, and it is
9 discussed here what the administration -- Personnel Administration did in
10 that period.
11 A. Can you please repeat the page number again?
12 Q. Yes. It was page 6.
13 A. It reads, in compliance with what I said, to determine all
14 participants in the homeland war, killed and missing persons, preparation
15 of forms, distribution to municipal headquarters, who were supposed to
16 provide us with feedback. And since this report was submitted in March,
17 some IT equipment is being introduced to process such data.
18 Q. Thank you. Can you take a look at the next document. These are
19 exhibits, and we've seen this document on a number of occasions, 1D 1607.
20 Mr. Bozic, tell me, have you found it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You were present at the 37th session of the HVO?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. For the purposes of this part of your examination in chief, could
25 you tell us in what capacity did you attend sessions of the HVO HZ-HB?
1 A. Yes, I did attend certain sessions in the absence of Mr. Stojic.
2 At some sessions, I was a rapporteur when it concerned documents that I
3 personally worked on, together with my colleagues, and which were
4 submitted to be adopted by the session of the HVO HZ-HB, but I was never
5 a member of the HVO HZ-HB. I attended meetings in my capacity as deputy
6 of Mr. Stojic, deputy head of the Defence Department.
7 Q. Could you take a look at item 15 of this -- of the minutes of the
8 meeting of the HVO HZ-HB, dated 5th of May, 1993.
9 A. I can see it.
10 Q. In Article 15, delegrations [as interpreted] on the report of the
11 work for 1992, and on the last page at 15, could you tell us whether this
12 report was adopted at this session?
13 A. Yes, it was.
14 Q. Mr. Bozic, it says here:
15 "After considering all -- situation in all spheres of life in the
16 territory and separate reports on the work and activities of the bodies
17 and services of the HVO HZ-HB, a decision was unanimously adopted to
18 accept the report on the work of the HVO HZ-HB for 1992."
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Mr. Bozic, since those minutes are scarce, in terms of
21 information, was this so, as reflected in the minutes, relying on your
22 memory; so whether first the reports were individually presented and then
23 debated and then adopted unanimously, as it says here?
24 A. In my previous statements during my testimony, I discussed this
25 very matter. First, discussion was held on all matters which were
1 included as items of the agenda, and these minutes are very rough because
2 there were -- there was no recording -- audio- or video-recording of the
3 proceedings, neither was there was telegramic [as interpreted]
5 Q. Thank you. I would like you to take a look at 2D 1018.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Mr. Bozic, could you tell me, please, what this is about, and who
8 signed it on behalf of Mr. Stojic? We're going to encounter similar
9 documents, so let's make this clear.
10 A. I signed it on behalf of Mr. Stojic, and it clearly states that
11 this falls within the scope of duties of all sectors of the Defence
12 Department and the Main Staff, pursuant to the 5th of May [as
13 interpreted] session, that a report be prepared for the period -- the
14 period for January and June 1993. All heads of sectors should prepare
15 their reports of their sector.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the date was the 5th
17 of July, 1993, not 5th of May.
18 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
19 Q. So let's take a look at this report for January and June of 1993.
20 This is document P 49 -- P 4699. Take a look at page 14, and page 9 in
21 the English version. The heading is "Personnel Administration." Could
22 you briefly tell us about the characteristics for the latter part of the
23 year from June to December?
24 A. We managed to equip ourselves, in terms of technical equipment,
25 to maintain the registers, collect data for professional units, and for
1 employees of the Department of Defence and Main Staff, in the sections
2 and offices. Practically, we started working on preparations to issue ID
3 cards for members of the HVO.
4 Q. Following from this report, what would be concluded is they had
5 already been produced, the ID cards. Please take a look at page 16, the
6 Administration for Mobilisation and Conscription. This is one of the
7 administrations that was subordinated to you; isn't that correct?
8 A. That's correct, yes, this is what I said. The Administration for
9 Conscription and Mobilisation only started working at the beginning of
10 June 1993, when Mr. Dobroslav Barbaric was appointed as head of that
11 administration. And what is stated here is from the 1st of June, 1993,
12 from when the chief of administration was appointed initially, the
13 administration performed the following tasks.
14 Q. Now please take a look at the next document, P 4008.
15 A. In this binder, there is no document.
16 Q. Then you should take the other binder. My apologies.
17 A. Yes, I can see it, the first document.
18 Q. Forty-ninth session of the HVO, dated 7th of August, 1993. You
19 attended that session again. Mr. Bozic, if I'm right, it would follow
20 that if you were in charge of an organisational sector whose report is
21 presented, then you would go there to the session?
22 A. Yes, I sometimes acted as a rapporteur. Sometimes I stood in for
23 Mr. Stojic.
24 Q. Then we are going to take a look further in the text, when the
25 reports on January to June of 1993 are discussed.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you take a look at the paragraph at 3 and tell us what it is
3 all about?
4 A. What is discussed are reports of the Defence Department and other
5 departments. It is noted here that the Defence Department report has
6 been adopted, with a note that an additional analysis of the state of
7 affairs was supposed to be submitted.
8 Q. Can you recall what was this all about?
9 A. Well, I can't remember, but what is demonstrable from this is
10 that a debate was held on the report, remarks were made by members of the
11 HVO HZ-HB to provide supplementary information, but I don't know really
12 what they were.
13 Q. I'm referring to His Honour Antonetti's question about how
14 decisions were taken. Please, under item C, could you tell us what is
15 said in the report about the Justice Department?
16 A. The report of the Justice and Administration Department of the
17 HVO HZ-HB was rejected.
18 Q. You do recall what happened?
19 A. I can't remember the details, but the fact that the department's
20 report was rejected or adopted, there must have been reasons for that.
21 Q. I'm not going to dwell on that. Please take a look at the next
22 document, P 07419. It's a report of work of the HVO for July-December
23 1993. It's a report which partly covers the period when Mr. Stojic was
24 head of the Defence Department. Please take a look at the text which
25 makes mention of the Personnel Administration, Roman numeral II. That's
1 the fourth page. It is stated here expressly that for personnel affairs,
2 that military ID cards were prepared within the remit of the Personnel
3 Administration. Could you tell us something more about this period of
5 A. What is indicated here, very briefly, the tasks of the Personnel
6 Administration. A problem that I referred to on several occasions today
7 is highlighted, and that is shortage of personnel, and they also
8 discussed what should be prepared for the forthcoming period.
9 What I'd like to highlight and stress is what I already said.
10 The Administration for Welfare, which was part of my civilian sector
11 within the Defence Department, started its work, started being organised,
12 and started performing their works depending on the scope of their -- or
13 terms of their reference.
14 Q. I'm going to show you several documents with respect to the
15 Personnel Administration. I'm not going to ask you about the Welfare
16 Administration, because the next witness is supposed to deal with that.
17 But with respect to the Personnel Administration, please take a look at
18 document 2D 01458.
19 A. Yes.
21 what it's all about.
22 A. As I already stated, the Personnel Administration was established
23 on the 8th of May, 1992
24 was established.
25 Q. Please take a look at the next document in the binder, 2D 01459.
1 We already discussed this document very briefly. Could you please
2 explain what it's all about?
3 A. The appointment of Mr. Dobroslav Barbaric as chief of the
4 Conscription and Mobilisation Administration.
5 Q. What was -- please explain briefly to the Bench what was the task
6 of the Personnel Administration when such documents were drafted and
8 A. Practically, the Personnel Administration drafted all appointment
9 and dismissal documents which were later on signed by Head Stojic.
10 Q. Thank you. Let's take a look at the next document in your
11 binder, 2D 02011.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you explain the Bench, please, what this document is about?
14 A. This is a list of eight persons who, so to speak, were part of
15 the office of Head Stojic, headed by me. We see two military policemen,
16 two secretaries, one clerk, et cetera.
17 Q. I heard you say "eight."
18 A. Oh, I apologise. Seven. My mistake. Seven persons.
19 Q. Mr. Bozic, this is a payroll list for December 1992?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Asked by me previously about the number of people working at the
22 Cabinet of the head of department --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- were these the persons and number of persons that you
25 specified earlier?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Let's take a look at the next document, 2D 02014.
3 A. I can see it.
4 Q. What is it, please?
5 A. A payroll -- payroll list for November 1992, referring to persons
6 employed by the Personnel Administration.
7 Q. When you take a look at this list, does it jog your memory as to
8 which person of these was a jurist or a lawyer who helped you?
9 A. I'm sure that Gordan Zadro was a lawyer. I'm not sure about
10 Mr. Jozo Palac [phoen]. And for the others, I'm 100 percent sure that
11 they were not lawyers.
12 Q. After this payroll list for November, maybe we could take a look
13 at another document which may be interesting, and that's 2D 04016, sorry.
14 2D 04016. The next one should be 2D 04016. Could you please tell the
15 Bench what this document is about?
16 A. This is a list of personnel who worked on -- as security
17 employees of the Defence Department.
18 Q. Very soon I'm going to ask you about the ethnic structure of the
19 HVO, but let's look at December 1992. The person under the number 17,
20 which ethnicity would that person be?
21 A. Muslim.
22 Q. 23, Muslim?
23 A. Muslim.
24 Q. 24?
25 A. Muslim.
1 Q. 28? I don't want to speculate.
2 A. Muslim.
3 Q. 29?
4 A. Muslim.
5 Q. Now let's take a look at 2D 0090 -- 989.
6 A. I can see it.
7 Q. It's a proposal of the 1st Brigade of HVO, Knez Domagoj. Could
8 you explain to the Bench what kind of document this is and what is the
9 connection of this document with the Personnel Administration?
10 A. The link of this document with the Personnel Administration is
11 that pursuant to this proposal that would be received by the Defence
12 Department after due process, the Personnel Administration would prepare
13 documents on appointments, because if I'm allowed to read out a part of
14 the text, this refers to the appointment to certain posts within the HVO.
15 Q. I'm going to ask you two things about this, Mr. Bozic. Are these
16 posts which Mr. Stojic was authorised to appoint pursuant to Article 34
17 of the regulations of the armed forces?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And on the last page, if you can remember, what was the procedure
20 for appointment, what the Personnel Administration would receive? Would
21 it be a proposal? Was any consent sought or required before Mr. Stojic
22 received the document to sign?
23 A. Yes, this is what I explained. A proposal would come from the
24 unit. Consent would be obtained from the Main Staff, and then the
25 Personnel Administration would draft the document to be signed by
1 Mr. Stojic.
2 Q. I'm going to show you several such documents on appointments made
3 by Mr. Stojic. This would be, the next one would be 2D 00985.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. This is Eugen Kvaternik - Bugojno Brigade appointments?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. There is a long list of appointments, 80 names. You had occasion
8 to read it, Mr. Bozic. These persons, were they those who
9 Mr. Bruno Stojic was authorised to appoint?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Can you look at the next document? That would be P 10846.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. This is also a document of appointment. Was this absolutely in
14 accordance with what we talked about?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The next document, can you please look at it, P 1805. All right.
17 We have something characteristic here, and that is on the 4th of April,
18 1993, in the Stjepan Radic - Ljubuski Brigade, Adis Delalic was being
19 appointed. According to his name, what ethnicity do you think he is?
20 A. If I can say that I noticed that in the prior appointment, that
21 is, of the 12th of April, that judging by his name and his father's name,
22 this is a person of Muslim ethnicity.
23 Q. All right. Thank you for that remark. That also applies to the
24 previous document, P 1846, and also this one, P 01805. Judging by the
25 name and the name of the father, Mr. Bozic, it would seem that these were
1 members of which ethnicity?
2 A. These are members of the Muslim ethnic group.
3 Q. Mr. Bozic, I'm now going to show you one document, and that is
4 2D 0201, and I'm going to please ask you to comment on the contents of
5 this document. What is this document about, and why, from this
6 exhaustive report, can we see that some persons from the Main Staff
7 helped in the drafting of certain documents adopted either by the
8 Personnel Administration or the Mobilisation Administration? Can you
9 please explain why this was necessary?
10 A. This is what I was trying in the beginning --
11 Q. I'm going to say this again, 2D 020 -- 2D 0201.
12 A. This is what I said already once at the beginning, and that is
13 that we were, in all of these defence sections, and I can say that this
14 applies to all of the administrations, that we had a lack of skillful,
15 qualified personnel, so obviously persons who were in the Main Staff who
16 were very good at this kind of thing helped us. What is most important
17 to note is that for all of us, work in the Defence Department was new.
18 For the most part, we were not qualified or had any work experience, in
19 terms of the military part of the work, so that colleagues helped us, in
20 the professional sense, in the preparation of certain documents. So I
21 probably think that this was the case in -- with this report that we are
22 talking about.
23 Q. Document 2D 0202 -- 2D 02010. I don't know what the problem is.
24 I think that we have the wrong document on the transcript. 2D 02010.
25 Now it seems to be all right.
1 Sir, now I'm going to ask you: A lot of attention was drawn by
2 Their Honours by a document who was given to you -- that was given to you
3 separately. It was given to Their Honours as well separately, and
4 I think that you are the best person to be able to explain this document,
5 and that is document 2D 00150. You have it separately. The document is
6 separate, and I'm going to now remind you what this is about. It's a
7 review of the ethnic structure of the members of the HVO. It's been
8 given to the office of the president of the HVO HZ-HB, and it was drafted
9 by the Personnel Administration, and it was dated the 9th of June, 1993
10 Since we discussed a lot about this, about the percentage of
11 Croats and Muslims in the HVO units, can you please explain to
12 Their Honours how this document was drafted and who drafted it?
13 A. Well, I can only say that I'm looking at this document for the
14 first time. Actually, the first time I saw it was during the preparation
15 for my testimony. Evidently, it went directly from the personnel chief
16 to the office of the president of the HZ-HB, Mr. Boban, and I can see a
17 review of this ethnic structure.
18 In the document, it was done on the basis of information, such as
19 it is, when we were working on the ID cards of all the members of the HVO
20 in the units, in the Defence Department and in the offices. All these
21 people filled in specific forms, entering information on the basis of
22 which the ethnicity of these people was established. This is something
23 which, in the area of the former Yugoslavia
24 documents were drafted as well as personal ID cards of all of us, and
25 this practice was adopted when the ID cards were made for members of the
2 Q. When you say IDs of the HVO members, we are talking about
3 military identification cards?
4 A. I have to say "IDs." We, in the department, also had our own ID
5 cards. All of us had ID cards, and you can see here at the beginning
6 that it says that the Defence Department, including all the sectors, so
7 the ethnic structure was reviewed in all the sectors, from the Main Staff
8 and everywhere else, and then it ends with the units which are at the
9 bottom of the list. The IDs were issued also to us who were not members
10 of the armed forces.
11 Q. All right. So, Mr. Bozic, I can conclude that this was done on
12 the basis of military ID -- excuse me, on the basis of ID cards which --
13 the information for which was submitted by those who are in the lists?
14 A. Yes, the forms were filled in by those who were later issued with
15 ID cards. Yes, that's where the information was derived from.
16 Q. Mr. Bozic, can you please tell the Trial Chamber what documents
17 were adopted by the Defence Department? Since we can see that you were
18 quite busy with the preparation and work in the Personnel Administration
19 for -- in the adoption of documents, can you please tell us, what sort of
20 documents were adopted by the Defence Department?
21 A. I personally am talking about our work duties pursuant to the
22 Decree on the Armed Forces, and on the basis of these duties we adopted
23 what I can call sub-documents, bylaws.
24 We could refer to them like that. So when we're talking about
25 the Decree on the Armed Forces, we would be drafting the regulations or
1 books of rules for military conscription. We or the Defence Department
2 made rules on the functioning and the activities of the security and
3 intelligence services. On the other hand, we also had the duty pursuant
4 to decisions and conclusions of the HVO HZ-HB.
5 At this point in time, I can recall and speak about duties when
6 the decisions on stamps and seals in the HVO were adopted, what our
7 obligations were in the proceedings to make, register and issue those
8 stamps. Also documents within the department, there would be a basic act
9 adopted by the HVO HZ-HB, and our acts would -- documents would be
10 adopted pursuant to that. We also were obliged to propose certain
11 documents that were adopted at the level at the HVO HZ-HB or, rather,
12 that were adopted at sessions of the HVO HZ-HB.
13 Q. So here you were talking about general documents, general
14 regulations. We often had the opportunity to see them when you were in
15 the Personnel Department; is that correct?
16 A. I didn't think there was any need to talk about individual acts.
17 We would prepare an act which would be adopted by the president, when
18 we're talking about certain appointments pursuant to his authorities. I
19 also focused more on documents that we were adopting, so to say in view
20 of the position that we had according to our place in the organisational
22 Q. We're now dealing with a topic that was of interest to His Honour
23 Judge Antonetti. If you can, can you please briefly explain how these
24 documents were prepared in the Defence Department? This is a
25 hypothetical question. We have a whole series of these documents. We
1 have the procedures of how these acts were drafted, discussed about. Can
2 you please tell us, in the end, how they were proposed, adopted, and went
3 into effect?
4 A. If we're talking about some documents which, in principle, were
5 proposed by certain sectors of the Defence Department Administration, as
6 such, they were drafted -- if we are talking about documents which
7 referred to the complete or entire Defence Department, I would mostly be
8 working on those types of documents with colleagues from the
9 Personnel Administration. Drafts of such acts, whenever possible, and we
10 managed to do that most of the time, would be put through a college
11 procedure at the Defence Department. They would be discussed, and
12 suggestions would be made before they would actually be drafted in the
13 form which would then be submitted for further procedure.
14 Q. In response to Judge Antonetti's question, you explained what
15 colleges were. Now I'm going to ask you about these discussions at the
16 college sessions, about these acts that were supposed to be passed on for
17 further procedure. Were general acts, bylaws, also discussed which were
18 supposed to be signed only by Mr. Stojic, the head of the Defence
19 Department, specifically? Were such acts also discussed at the college?
20 A. We did discuss these acts just for the purpose of being informed
21 about it within the department. We wanted to follow what was going on
22 with the acts that we proposed and that were going to go on for further
24 Q. Mr. Bozic, how often were these college sessions scheduled? And
25 we would also like to know who were members of the college and how often
1 they sat in at meetings.
2 A. I would first of all like to tell the Trial Chamber that the
3 college was an informal body, and members did not have any kind of legal
4 basis for their existence. It was an ad hoc body which had a need to
5 discuss certain matters, certain questions that would be subject to
6 further procedure, and would be drafted in the forms of draft laws and
7 bylaws. So we wanted to be informed about matters that were important
8 and about matters that were being done in the department and on behalf of
9 the department. All the assistants of the head would attend these
10 meetings, also representatives of the Main Staff. I, myself, was there
11 as Mr. Stojic's deputy, as well as the chiefs of certain administrations
12 in the department.
13 Q. You explained that the college was an informal body. Did it ever
14 happen that the college would adopt decisions or a decision?
15 A. I think that there were situations like that, when the college
16 did adopt some decisions.
17 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] All right. Your Honours, if you
18 permit me, I am going to move now to a very broad topic, and I would not
19 like to interrupt once I begin. So if you have nothing against that, I
20 would suggest that we stop now and that we continue our session tomorrow
21 morning -- tomorrow afternoon.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. It's almost 7.00.
23 As you know, Witness, we will resume tomorrow morning, because
24 there will be a morning session tomorrow. We will resume at 9.00.
25 Now, as regards the time you have used, Ms. Alaburic, you've used
1 up two hours and thirty-five minutes -- I'm sorry, Ms. Nozica. I was
2 thinking about Ms. Alaburic. Ms. Nozica, you've used up two hours and
3 thirty-five minutes. Therefore, you've got two hours and twenty-five
4 minutes left.
5 I wish you a good evening. See you tomorrow.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.
7 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day of
8 February, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.