Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4721

 1                           Wednesday, 11 February 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The accused Petkovic not present]

 5                           [The accused Coric not present]

 6                           --- Upon commencing at 2.13 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you call the case number,

 8     please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-74-T,

11     the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al. Thank you, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Today, on the 11th

13     of February 2009, I would like to greet the accused, Defence teams, the

14     OTP, and Mr. Stringer and all his associates.  And I wouldn't like to

15     forget everyone else assisting us in these proceedings.  The Registry,

16     the usher, and the interpreters.  I'll give the floor to the Registrar to

17     deal with some IC numbers.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Some parties have

19     submitted list of documents to be tendered through witness Slobodan

20     Bozic.  The list submitted by 2D shall be given Exhibit IC 00913.  The

21     list submitted by 3D shall be given Exhibit IC 00914.  The list submitted

22     by 4D shall be given Exhibit IC 00915.  And the list submitted by the

23     Prosecution shall be given Exhibit IC 00916.  Thank you, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  I'd

25     like us to move into closed session very briefly.

Page 4722

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23                           [Open session]

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Page 4723

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14             THE REGISTRAR:  As the court pleases.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, as you can see --

16     well, you said that there was an error in the transcript.

17             MR. KOVACIC:  As I said, Your Honour, I haven't heard and I

18     haven't seen in the transcript that IC list submitted by Mr. Praljak was

19     given IC number.  It might be mistake but I'm sure that we sent it this

20     morning.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It would be best if the

22     Registrar repeated the four numbers for us.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  Some parties have submitted

24     lists of documents to be tendered through witness Slobodan Bozic.  The

25     list submitted by 2D shall be given Exhibit IC 913.  The list submitted

Page 4724

 1     by 3D shall be given Exhibit IC 914.  The list submitted by 4D shall be

 2     given Exhibit IC 915.  And the list submitted by Prosecution shall be

 3     given Exhibit IC 916.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 5             Mr. Kovacic.

 6             MR. KOVACIC:  Awfully sorry, but we submitted two lists, one --

 7     okay, yes.  I'm just given the sign.  It's okay.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We will now call

 9     the witness into the courtroom.

10                           [The witness entered court]

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir.  Could you give

12     me your first and last name and your date of birth, please.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours.  Good day

14     to everyone in the courtroom.  My name is Stipo Buljan.  I was born in

15     1960 in Kuljanovci in the municipality of Derventa.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  But on what day,

17     which month?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born on the 2nd of January,

19     1960.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your profession?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Currently I work as a functionary,

22     and I work as a secretary in the ministry, Ministry of Energy.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified

24     before Tribunal with regard to the events that took place in the former

25     Yugoslavia, or is this the first time?

Page 4725

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I have never testified before.

 2     This is the first time before this Court.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Could you please

 4     read the solemn declaration out.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7                           WITNESS:  STIPO BULJAN

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may sit down, sir.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'd like to provide you with

12     some information to ensure that the proceedings run smoothly.  As

13     Mr. Stojic's counsel has certainly told you, you will have to answer

14     questions that will be put to you on the basis of certain documents.

15     This was certainly explained to you in detail.  Once this has been done,

16     the Prosecution will conduct its cross-examination, but before they do so

17     the other Defence teams for representing the other accused may put

18     questions to you as part of their cross-examination.

19             The four judges sitting before you may, as a rule on base of

20     documents, ask you to provide additional information or clarification.

21     So we should be sitting or your testimony should take two days.  We'll be

22     sitting tomorrow -- you'll be testifying tomorrow, you'll see that it's

23     quite exhausting because you have to remain concentrated to answer the

24     questions.  If you don't understand the sense of a question, please don't

25     hesitate to ask the party putting the question to you to repeat it.

Page 4726

 1             You'll see that the type of questions put to you are quite

 2     different.  Stojic Defence will put questions to you that will allow you

 3     to enlarge on the subject.  In the course of the cross-examination, the

 4     Prosecution's questions will be questions to which you can answer by

 5     saying yes, no, I don't know, or perhaps.  The other Defence teams will

 6     put questions to you, the nature of which will be somewhat hybrid.  The

 7     Judges have a totally different approach because their questions are

 8     usually of a technical kind.  They are open-ended questions that allow

 9     the witness a certain latitude when answering the questions.

10             We'll have a break every one and a half hours.  If at any point

11     in time you feel somewhat uneasy, inform us of the fact, and we can

12     adjourn.  You are now testifying for the Court, which means that you

13     should no longer have any contact with Ms. Nozica, that's especially the

14     case now.  You shouldn't have any more contact.  That's what I wanted to

15     tell you so that things can run smoothly.

16             Ms. Nozica, I give you the floor.

17             MS. NOZICA:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, I would

18     like to wish good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom and greet you,

19     Mr. Buljan.

20                           Examination by Ms. Nozica:

21        Q.   You have provided some basic information about yourself to His

22     Honour.  Now, could you please in order to avoid more questions and to

23     cover these rather important issues quickly, could you tell Their Honours

24     and give them an explanation about the basic points of your career from

25     your secondary school education up to the present.

Page 4727

 1             What were the activities you engaged in as your CV.

 2        A.   I said when I was born and where.  I completed secondary

 3     technical school in Derventa.  The mechanical engineering factory in

 4     Sarajevo.  I enrolled in post-graduate studies in 1998, 1999 in Mostar.

 5     I defended my masters thesis in 2001 at the faculty of machine building

 6     in Mostar.  I defended my PhD in 2007 at the faculty of machine building

 7     in Mostar, and last year I was promoted to the level of dosant [phoen] at

 8     the faculty of mechanical engineering in Mostar.

 9        Q.   Let me ask you if you could speak a little more slowly.  You are

10     giving dates and for everything to be recorded in the transcript, please

11     slow down a little.

12        A.   Upon the completion of my university training, my first

13     employment was in the work organisation practice of Orasje in the basic

14     organisation for cold, processing of material.  This was a firm engaging

15     in the military industry.  After that I moved to Derventa to a wonderful

16     company which was called Mehanika, and it had 480 employees.  I was head

17     of production in that company when the war broke out.  And in April 1992,

18     I joined the Croatian Defence Council.  During those first few months I

19     was a soldier on the frontline, and after that assistant commander for

20     IPD, and after that acting commander of the 103rd Derventa Brigade, and

21     after that I was appointed to chief of the department attached to the

22     operative zone Orasje in Bosanska Posavina, and I performed those duties

23     until 1995 when I was appointed head of the administration for welfare.

24             After that, by decision of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

25     I was appointed deputy director in the federal administration for

Page 4728

 1     veterans and fighters of the homeland war.  I worked there for two years.

 2     After that, appointed to deputy director for the administration for civil

 3     defence.  And in 2002 by decision of the government of BiH, I was

 4     appointed to the federal ministry for industry.  And this is the post I

 5     hold today.

 6        Q.   I note that quite a number of data that you mentioned have not

 7     been recorded.  We see the letter D when you said Derventa, but for Their

 8     Honours to be able to have full insight in the period that is important

 9     for us I will ask you to go back to it.  You said that you joined the HVO

10     in April 1992 in Derventa; is that right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   You said that at the beginning you were a foot soldier and that

13     after a while you were assistant commander for IPD in the 103rd Brigade

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And after that acting commander of the brigade; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And you said that in April 1993, you were appointed chief of the

18     department for welfare in the operative zone of Bosanska Posavina,

19     Bosanska Posavina, and you held that position until 1995; is that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Mr. Buljan, I've already told you that, but let me remind you, we

22     will make brief pauses between questions and answers so that everything

23     can be recorded in the transcript.

24             Could you now please explain to Their Honours after you joined

25     the HVO of Derventa, what was going on in Derventa, but I ask you to

Page 4729

 1     explain to Their Honours in geographical terms the location of Derventa.

 2        A.   In April 1992 when I joined the HVO, the frontline of the 103rd

 3     Derventa Brigade was very long.  Derventa is a small town, a town of a

 4     municipality of 56.000 inhabitants, is in Bosanska Posavina, therefore,

 5     close to Bosanski Brod and Slavinski Brod.  Also in Derventa municipality

 6     there were 52 villages and at that point in time the frontline was more

 7     than 100 kilometres long.

 8             Towards the end of April and the beginning of May the civilian

 9     authorities were moved out of Derventa municipality.  They were somewhere

10     else.  The brigade remained alone there, and throughout those first two

11     months, I was deployed on the frontline.

12             Throughout the period that we are talking about, the 103rd

13     Derventa Brigade was losing territory from a stronger enemy, and in a

14     sense, it was retreating.  On the 4th of July, 1992, the town of Derventa

15     actually fell.  That morning there was no one left in that town.  My

16     brigade formed a line not far from the town of Derventa between Bosanski

17     Brod and Derventa and engaged in battle again, and later towards the end

18     of September, or to be more precise, on the 6th of October, 1992,

19     Bosanski Brod fell, the last square metres of Derventa municipality, and

20     there wasn't a single unit of the HVO left in that area.

21        Q.   Mr. Buljan, when you speak of a stronger enemy, to make it quite

22     precise for the record, who was the enemy and who was attacking

23     throughout this period that you have referred to?

24        A.   I would define that as the Serbian army.  The 103rd Derventa

25     Brigade was waging war exclusively with the Serbian army.

Page 4730

 1        Q.   You have told us what happened to your brigade.  Could you tell

 2     us now what was happening to the other HVO brigades from this area?

 3        A.   At that point in time on the 5th of October, 1992, and the 6th of

 4     October, 1992, my brigade was to the right of Bosanski Brod, and the

 5     manpower was in the brigade.  Under the attacks of the Serbian army,

 6     Bosanski Brod fell.  And the 103rd Derventa Brigade with a few more units

 7     of the HVO was the only one left within that horseshoe.  As it was

 8     realised that nothing could be done, the Sava river was behind us and the

 9     retreat was carried out across the Sava river, and the 103rd Derventa

10     Brigade was stationed in schools in Slavonski Brod, in empty homes,

11     houses, and the command of the brigade was in Orasje close to Slavonski

12     Brod.  That is where the brigade stayed for about a month.  It was

13     training there, and then it returned to Bosanski Posavina to a locality

14     called Orasje, or, rather, Domaljevac close to Orasje.  The 101st Brigade

15     of Bosanski Brod went through the same events, and it also returned to

16     Orasje afterwards.  A little earlier on because the municipality of

17     Modrica and Odzak had fallen earlier, those brigades too moved to the

18     territory of free Slobodana [as interpreted] Posavina, that is in Orasje

19     and the surrounding localities.

20        Q.   I see that the place called Orasje does not appear in the

21     transcript once though you referred to it several times, O-r-a-s-j-e.

22     There's no problem.  I'll repeat this later on to help you, but could you

23     now mention the place where your 103rd Brigade was relocated?

24        A.   It's called Domaljevac which is close to Orasje.

25        Q.   Mr. Buljan, could you please list by name all the brigades that

Page 4731

 1     were where the 103rd Derventa Brigade was.  You said this was roughly in

 2     mid-October.  Which other brigades were stationed there?

 3        A.   One might say that in mid-November, or that is when we arrived

 4     there, we found the following situation:  101st Bosanski Brod Brigade,

 5     102nd Odzak Brigade, 103rd Derventa Brigade, 104th Samac or Domicile

 6     Brigade, the 105th Modrica Brigade, and 106th Orasje Brigade.

 7        Q.   You said that the 103rd Derventa Brigade was in conflict with the

 8     Serbian army.  Tell us what operative zones were constituted by these

 9     brigades, and who they were fighting throughout the war?

10        A.   These brigades constituted the operative zone of Bosanska

11     Posavina, and all these brigades throughout the war were in conflict and

12     fighting the Serbian army.

13        Q.   We have seen when the war started.  Could you tell us up until

14     when did this war continue?

15        A.   The last more serious and strong offensive was around June or

16     July 1995.

17        Q.   In the area of Orasje, that is within the territory of the

18     operative zone of Bosanska Posavina, were there any units of the Army of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20        A.   No, there were no units of the armija there.

21        Q.   Could you tell me what was the ethnic composition of these HVO

22     brigades?

23        A.   I can say that each of these six brigades was multiethnic in

24     composition.  The 101st Bosanski Brod Brigade had a significant number of

25     soldiers of Muslim ethnicity and also of Serb ethnicity and others, as

Page 4732

 1     well as the command personnel of the said brigade.  The same applied to

 2     the 102nd Odzak Brigade.  I think that the Chief of Staff there was a

 3     Muslim, and the assistant commander for IPD was also a Muslim.  In the

 4     103rd Derventa Brigade, that is my brigade, there were also quite a

 5     number of Muslims.  The chief of the medical corps was also a Muslim.  In

 6     the 104th Samac Brigade there were also other ethnicities.  In the 105th

 7     Modrica and 106th Orasje Brigades there were both soldiers and command

 8     staff who were of various ethnicities.

 9        Q.   Tell me please, in the command of the operative zone, was it of

10     mixed ethnicity, I'm talking about the command?

11        A.   Yes, the command of the operative zone was also of mixed

12     ethnicity.  I think that the main intelligence officer in the zone was a

13     Bosniak, and there were other operative officers who were Bosniaks.

14        Q.   Could you tell me, Mr. Buljan, what were the insignia worn by HVO

15     soldiers from April 1992 onwards?

16        A.   One could say that the markings were such that there was an

17     indication of the HVO, but also an indication of the Army of

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  This applied in particular to the Muslims who wore

19     such markings, so a kind of mixture was produced.  Half was HVO and the

20     other half were three lilies.  And this went on until perhaps the end of

21     1992 and even the beginning of 1993.  The brigade took a long time to

22     organise itself, and I remember the 102nd Odzak Brigade and the commander

23     Bozic had this until mid-1993.

24             Later on as the HVO organised itself, such insignia were

25     gradually removed and only the insignia of the HVO were borne.  The

Page 4733

 1     removal of these mixed insignia or double insignias, sometimes both were

 2     worn on the coat, this went gradually and it was not by force.

 3        Q.   Could you please explain something.  When you said "mixed"

 4     badges, could you tell us what kind of badges they were?  Did you have

 5     two insignia on one badge or was it on one shoulder?  What did it look

 6     like?

 7        A.   Well, often you would have two kinds of insignia, two badges,

 8     they would be separate, distinct on the uniforms.  But sometimes the HVO

 9     insignia would be split in half and you would have half the insignia of

10     the ABiH and the other half of the HVO insignia, and then you'd have just

11     one badge.

12        Q.   Did the Muslims from October 1992 and onwards leave HVO units?

13     Was this a large scale phenomenon, what could you say about this?

14        A.   Given the situation we were in, especially the brigades that had

15     lost their territory, the 102nd, the 103rd, the 101st, and the 105th,

16     well, given the situation, there were soldiers who left.  I also remember

17     in 1992 in October after the fall of Bosanski Brod, after the bridge had

18     been blown up, while we were billeted in Oreovac [phoen], there was one

19     unit, perhaps a platoon or a strengthened platoon, and mainly the members

20     of the platoon were Muslims.  They and their equipment from the 103rd

21     Derventa Brigade set off through Zagreb and arrived in Central Bosnia,

22     perhaps in Zenica, and this movement of the armed soldiers hadn't been

23     something that we were informed of.  Some of those people returned to

24     Orasje.  But -- however, there were some that got through and everything

25     came to an end, I would sometimes -- when everything was over I would

Page 4734

 1     sometimes meet them in Zenica, but they went to the central part of

 2     Bosnia.

 3        Q.   In the following period during the entire wartime period, in that

 4     area up until 1995, as you said, were there a lot of soldiers of Muslim

 5     ethnicity who left?  Was this a large scale phenomenon?

 6        A.   Well, no, I can't say that there were more Muslims who left than

 7     Croats or members of other ethnicity.

 8        Q.   You said that at the beginning of April 1992 when you joined the

 9     HVO you were assistant commander for IPD, intelligence and propaganda.

10     For how long did you hold that position?

11        A.   I held that position for perhaps two or three months.  I can't

12     say exactly now, but it was after the fall of Derventa, the fall of the

13     municipality or town of Derventa, the 103rd Derventa Brigade was in

14     Bosanski Brod at the time.  In such situations usually the command staff

15     when the territory is left, disappears, and then the command of the 103rd

16     Derventa Brigade appointed me to this position and assigned specific

17     tasks to me.

18        Q.   Similarly, you said that you were the acting brigade commander.

19     When was this?  I just wanted to add, so that we have a complete answer,

20     I wanted to ask you what happened to the commander?

21        A.   This was from about the beginning of November, the first ten days

22     of November, 1992, until perhaps the end of January, 1993.  The brigade

23     commander was seriously wounded in fighting in Bosanski Brod.  He was in

24     hospital, and they appointed me to that position.

25        Q.   Can you please tell me who was in the command of the brigade you

Page 4735

 1     were in?

 2        A.   Well, on the whole there were -- there was the assistant for IPD,

 3     there was the chief of security, the chief of logistics, the chief of

 4     sanitation and health, so that's how the brigade was established.

 5        Q.   Were they all your assistants?

 6        A.   Yes, they were practically all my assistants.  They were the

 7     first individuals in those fields who were members of the brigade.

 8        Q.   Can you tell me what the command structure in the operation zone

 9     was like, as far as you can remember?

10        A.   Well, it was similar, almost an identical reflection of what a

11     brigade usually is like.  That's what the situation was like in the

12     operation zone.  There was a commander of the operation zone, there was a

13     chief of the staff of the zone in question, there was an assistant for

14     IPD, there was an assistant for security; I think that that was the name.

15     There was an assistant for intelligence and so on and so forth.

16        Q.   I'll go back to the subject of your brigade.  Can you explain for

17     the benefit of the Chamber to whom assistance for IPD, security,

18     sanitation, logistics were subordinate?  Who were they subordinate to?

19        A.   The time and situation that prevailed during that wartime period,

20     they were subordinate to me alone.  Every morning assigned task to them,

21     I told them what they should do, how they should do it, and how they

22     should report on what they were doing me.

23        Q.   Can you tell the Chamber what the link was between these

24     assistants and assistants from the same fields in the operations areas?

25        A.   Well, I think they had certain meetings, certain information was

Page 4736

 1     gathered on such occasions, so someone from the operation zone could

 2     inform commander of the operation zone about the issues.

 3        Q.   Mr. Buljan, you said at that time, that was the period during

 4     which you held that position.  It was from November 1992 until the end of

 5     January or the beginning of February 1993, I'm only asking you about that

 6     period because that's the experience you have.

 7             Now, my question is, what was the relationship of your assistants

 8     for IPD, security, sanitation and logistics in your brigade with the

 9     fields, with the sectors in those fields in the Defence Department?

10        A.   Well, let me put it this way, my own assistants for my brigade

11     worked with the assistant of the general area in relation to certain

12     fields and sectors.  And then the assistants for certain areas was in

13     charge of some form of coordination and in charge of making sure there

14     were appropriate links to assistants in the departments.

15        Q.   Just to make sure the Chamber understands, at the time were there

16     any physical links that were available to you for your communication

17     with, for example, Herzegovina?  What was the actual communication like

18     in terms of technology and in terms of physical links to Herzegovina and

19     Mostar specifically?  I'm talking about the period between November 1992

20     and onward from there.

21        A.   This was still a time when it was very difficult to communicate.

22     Even to just travel there required a long time.  You had to cross Croatia

23     in its entirety in order to reach Mostar.

24        Q.   What about communications?  I'm now talking about the actual

25     technology, the equipment used.  Do you remember if the military were

Page 4737

 1     using anything to communicate on a daily basis?

 2        A.   I don't think there was any such thing as daily communication

 3     going on, but at any rate communication was possible by phone if nothing

 4     else.

 5        Q.   Mr. Buljan, I'm taking account of a single detail so don't hold

 6     this against me when you tell me you had to cross Croatia in its

 7     entirety.  Can you tell Your Honours if there was a short cut that one

 8     could take in order to get to Mostar and why that short cut could not be

 9     used at the time?

10        A.   Bosanski Posavina and this whole area around Orasje had the Sava

11     river right behind it.  It was broad and it was cold and in front there

12     was a 27 kilometre long front with the enemy all over it.  The only way

13     to cross this area was by air, across Bosnia and Herzegovina in order to

14     get to Herzegovina proper.  So everyone travelled across the Republic of

15     Croatia, along the Adriatic coast and across the islands back to the

16     mainland before one could make the crossing into Herzegovina or

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18        Q.   In order to explain why one had to cross a portion of the sea and

19     across the islands, can you please explain that.  Was perhaps a section

20     of the Croatian coast occupied as well and by whom?

21        A.   That's right, a section of the coast belonging to the Republic of

22     Croatia was at the time occupied by the Serb army, and one couldn't cross

23     that section.  One would have to take a ferry to circumvent this section

24     and in order to return to the free territory of the Republic of Croatia,

25     and I think planes were used for travel at the time in order to cross

Page 4738

 1     that area as well.

 2        Q.   Mr. Buljan, you say that throughout this time up until 1995 it

 3     was only the Serbian army that you waged war against.  Can you please

 4     explain to the Trial Chamber about this Serbian army.  Aside from the

 5     areas in Bosnia-Herzegovina which you explained you were holding under

 6     your control, were there any combat activities or operations that they

 7     were performing across your territory in order to jeopardize the Republic

 8     of Croatia, to attack the Republic of Croatia?

 9        A.   While we were still in the Bosanski Brod area, I do have to admit

10     that it was equally dangerous to be in Slavonski Brod or further behind

11     Bosanski Brod's territory.  I can't be specific, but I think the shelling

12     of Zupanja lasted over 1.000 days.  Before the frontline eventually moved

13     to Bosanska Posavina and the area Orasje.  Long range artillery was used

14     by the Serbian army to pound our own frontline and deeper into our

15     territory as well as the fringe areas including certain towns in the

16     Republic of Croatia as well.

17        Q.   Can we now please go back to the structure of your own brigade.

18     At the time was there anyone in the brigade who was in charge of welfare?

19        A.   No, I have to admit not.  In the 103rd Derventa Brigade there was

20     no particular person at a time who was in charge of welfare, and the same

21     thing applied across the brigade.

22        Q.   Just, you know, to make sure we make this clear, what period of

23     time are we looking at?  When was there no one who was in charge of

24     welfare?

25        A.   I'm talking about persons whose sole responsibility it was to

Page 4739

 1     look after welfare.  There was no one throughout 1992 in the units of the

 2     Croatian Defence Council in Bosanska Posavina.  It wasn't before the

 3     beginning of 1993 that an appointment like that was first made and the

 4     post was filled, to put it that way.

 5        Q.   Were you the person appointed, Mr. Buljan, appointed to any post

 6     that had to do with welfare within the operation zone, and if so, when?

 7        A.   It was in March 1993 that I was appointed head of the welfare

 8     section in the Bosanska Posavina operations area.

 9        Q.   Very well.  Who signed your appointment?

10        A.   My appointment was signed by the head of that department,

11     Mr. Bruno Stojic.

12        Q.   Was there a person in each brigade who was in charge of welfare

13     at the time, or by this time?  I'm talking about the period that followed

14     April 1993.

15        A.   Once I had been appointed, I carried out additional consultations

16     with my erstwhile colleagues, brigade commanders.  I also talked to the

17     commander of the operations area and asked him to do the same.  I said

18     that there should be an appointment, that people should be appointed

19     within a ten-day period who would be in charge of welfare across the

20     units.  In some units there was a single person who was in charge.  In

21     some others there were a number of different persons who dealt with this

22     area.  For the most part all the commanders complied with this.

23     Following which, each of the brigades had a person was in charge of

24     welfare and some sort of link between the brigade and the welfare section

25     or department in the operations area itself.

Page 4740

 1        Q.   Mr. Buljan, can you explain to the Court what sort of

 2     relationship existed between you and the commander of the operation zone

 3     or area in terms of welfare now that you've assumed your post, and what

 4     was the relationship between you and the head of welfare and the Defence

 5     Department?

 6        A.   I had my own commander, the commander of the operations area, and

 7     I was responsibility to the commander directly for all areas.  I was not

 8     for a moment allowed to leave the area or do anything else without his

 9     written or verbal permission.  I was the department head and I was in

10     charge of welfare.  We sometimes spoke, we exchanged information, I would

11     submit certain reports when required and that was about it.

12        Q.   When, based on what you remember, did the welfare administration

13     that was attached to the Defence Department start operating?

14        A.   I think it was sometime mid-through 1993, perhaps May or June.

15        Q.   Can you remember what the name was of the head of the welfare

16     administration within the Defence Department at the time?

17        A.   Sure.  Josip Palac.

18        Q.   Mr. Buljan, we'll be going through a number of exhibits now, if

19     you don't mind, to support what you've been telling us.  I assume you've

20     been given a binder containing documents.  Do you have that in front of

21     you, sir?  It should be a blue binder.  That's the one, yes.

22             The first document, we'll take one step at a time, I'll try not

23     to skip a single document.  Can you please track down the first one for

24     the sake of the record.  This is 2D 00629.  Tell me as soon as you've got

25     it, sir.

Page 4741

 1        A.   I've found the document.  This is the document in which we see

 2     the department head, Mr. Stojic make my official appointment as chief of

 3     the welfare section within the Bosanska Posavina operations area.

 4        Q.   You said a minute ago that this was in March, whereas the date we

 5     see here is the 3rd of April, would that be the same thing, sir?

 6        A.   Yes, I think so.  It's probably down to me.  I've probably got

 7     the date and the months mixed up.  I think this should be accurate

 8     because this is the document.

 9             MS. NOZICA:

10        Q.   Can we please move on to the next document.  This is 2D 00567.

11     There will be a yellow sticky attached to that particular sheet of paper

12     and you shouldn't find it too difficult to find document.  This is

13     decision on the internal structure of the Defence Department dated

14     October 1992.  I believe you saw the one from October 1992.

15             Can you therefore tell the Court if you look at this first

16     internal structure, was there such a thing envisaged there as a post

17     relating to welfare or the head of a welfare section, anything like that

18     at all?

19        A.   No, nothing like that that is contained in this decision.

20        Q.   Can we move on to the next document, please, this is P 02477.  P,

21     P, just for the sake of the record, sir.  P 02477.  This is a decision on

22     the internal structure dated the 20th of May, 1993.  Can you please focus

23     on paragraph 2, rather item 2, paragraph 2 of item 2.  You see that in

24     May, just as you told us there was now such a thing as welfare

25     administration and that had just been introduced right?

Page 4742

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   The document claims that heads will be in charge of the

 3     administration?

 4        A.   Yes, that's right.

 5        Q.   And they will answer to the deputy head.  Do you remember who the

 6     deputy head was at the time?

 7        A.   I do have to admit that all of my communication between myself

 8     and the welfare administration and any -- and the welfare administration

 9     itself went through Mr. Palac the head.

10        Q.   Can you please move to the next document, please, 2D 01370.

11     2D 01370.  That's the one.  Have you got it, sir?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   This is a diagram showing how the brigade was formed.  We should

14     have there a list of all of the duties incumbent upon the command of a

15     brigade.  Can you please go to page 3 of that document, sir.  And there

16     you should find appointments.  Item 4, which should be the next page, as

17     long as we get that in e-court.  All right.  We've got it.  We have it on

18     our screens.  Go to number 4, please.  It reads:

19             "Coordinator for social welfare and care of the wounded."

20             Is this a position that existed in the brigades based on what you

21     remember?

22        A.   Yes.  These for the most parts were the positions that formed a

23     link between the brigade on the one hand and me and my colleagues in the

24     welfare administrations across the operations areas.

25        Q.   Can we please now go to P 02945.  This is an order, an

Page 4743

 1     appointment being made to the Rama Brigade command.  The order was signed

 2     by Bruno Stojic, head of the Defence Department.  The date is the 25th of

 3     June, 1993.  Can we just make sure whether the appointment was actually

 4     made.  Look at number 20, please.  Have you got that, sir?

 5        A.   Yes, that's that.

 6        Q.   Just to make sure we've got it in the transcript and in no

 7     uncertain terms, can you tell us what that is?

 8        A.   Number 20, the person being appointed here is actually a social

 9     welfare clerk or coordinator, depending on the term being used.

10        Q.   Mr. Buljan, can you explain to the Trial Chamber -- I keep

11     talking about your position, the position that you were appointed to in

12     April, the 3rd of April more specifically.  The Bosanska Posavina

13     operations area.  You were appointed head of the welfare section.  Can

14     you tell us if you were the person who drafted reports there?  Did you

15     draft any reports and for whose sake?  What exactly did those reports

16     comprise?

17        A.   Welfare sections, that is myself and anyone else working there,

18     would draft reports or produce reports.  We would then forward those

19     reports to the welfare administration.  Their form and their substance

20     was exactly what was required.  Other such reports when needed would be

21     sent on to the commander of the operations area as well.

22        Q.   I'm sorry, perhaps I misheard or misunderstood.  These reports,

23     did you submit these to the welfare administration in Mostar as well?

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25        Q.   Can we move on to two of the following documents shedding light

Page 4744

 1     on this.  The first is P 4699.

 2             Mr. Buljan, this is a work in progress report in relation to June

 3     and July 1993, HVO HZ-HB.  I'm deliberately showing you none of the

 4     reports in relation to 1992 because we know when you were appointed when

 5     you first started working in this position.  Can you please look at page

 6     14 in the Croatian which should be page 9 in the English.  If you look at

 7     the bottom of page 14 in the Croatian, you will see the beginning of a

 8     report on the tasks of the welfare administration.  It then spills over

 9     in to page 15 and part of page 16.  Can you in the briefest of terms tell

10     the Chamber whether this information -- I believe you've gone through

11     this carefully, whether all of this information contained in this report

12     tallies with the information that you would include in your own annual

13     reports?

14        A.   Yes, the information tallies.  It's exactly consistent with

15     information forwarded by my own section to the welfare administration.

16        Q.   Can we please move on briefly to the next report also, P 07419.

17     And then we can go into more detail with what exactly your job entailed.

18     P 7419.  This is a report on the work of the HVO in relation to the

19     period between June and December 1993.  Page 4 in the Croatian and page 2

20     in the English.

21             This document talks about the sector for personnel affairs and

22     within that sector about the department for welfare, and there's a detail

23     link to you when it says that in December 1993 the department for welfare

24     was established in Orasje and preparations were carried out to deal and

25     to provide care for the wounded members of the HVO.

Page 4745

 1             Do you remember that in December 1993 the welfare department

 2     attached to the HVO were visited in the zone of Orasje?

 3        A.   Yes, I do remember that the employees of the administration for

 4     welfare did make a tour of the Welfare Department of the HVO in the

 5     territory of Orasje.  It is true that 63, and I have no reason to doubt

 6     this number, that financial aid was paid out to families of the killed

 7     and war veterans wounded, and I would have left out the word

 8     "establishment" because it was a established by my appointment.  As soon

 9     as I was appointed, the department was formed.

10        Q.   Very well.  After your appointment as a chief of the department

11     for welfare in the operative zone of Bosanska Posavina, what were your

12     initial tasks?

13        A.   When I'm talking about welfare, then I'd divide that into two

14     important segments.  One, while I was chief of the sector or department

15     in Orasje, and the second section when I was the head of the

16     administration.

17             When I took over as head of the sector in the operation zone of

18     Bosanska Posavina, there was virtually nothing there so I started from

19     scratch, and I received from the commander a room with a kitchen table,

20     and I said from now on this will be my office.  And this is where we

21     collected data about all the victims.  And we agreed on how we would

22     collect data and provide those data to the department.

23             So in the first place we had to identify the people involved.  We

24     had to send them for treatment if necessary, to engage in their

25     rehabilitation, and in the case of all military invalids, this was

Page 4746

 1     essential.  Also we needed to find orthopaedic aids for them, and in the

 2     case of those military war disabled who were unable to return to their

 3     homes, or rather who had nowhere to go, we had to find accommodation for

 4     them.

 5        Q.   When talking about the first stage or the first period of your

 6     activities, you are now explaining the first period.  You just didn't

 7     tell us when this second period belongs, according to you?

 8        A.   The second stage or period will be as long as the first because

 9     it also started in April, but in 1995 in April or May when I was

10     appointed head of the welfare administration.

11        Q.   So in this first stage you first collected data about those

12     killed and those wounded; is that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Who collected those data?  Were they collected in the brigades or

15     at the level of the operative zone?

16        A.   The only providers of information were the coordinators who were

17     located in the brigades.  Some brigades had several coordinators, some

18     battalions of brigades had their own coordinators.  It all depended on

19     the size of the brigade.  So they were the first persons to provide us

20     with the requested information.  It was up to me to decide how to

21     organise this data.  If we needed something to be signed by the brigade

22     commanders, then those certificates which the brigade commanders needed

23     to sign, they had to be equal, uniform.

24        Q.   Mr. Buljan, while you were collecting these data, did you at the

25     same time provide care to the war invalids and the families of the

Page 4747

 1     victims and how?

 2        A.   Certainly we did take care of all war invalids who, with

 3     necessary documents, received salaries through their original units, the

 4     unit in which they were wounded.  Also, through our department they were

 5     provided with treatment, as I mentioned a moment ago.  They were sent to

 6     various institutions for surgery or for orthopaedic aids, et cetera.

 7     This applied to the invalids, to the war disabled.

 8        Q.   Did you take care of the families of the killed too?

 9        A.   The families of killed soldiers also were taken care of.  We

10     needed to do the same as for the war disabled with respect to documents.

11     We needed to find out who was entitled to any fees after the death of a

12     soldier, so that was our priority in the first period, to collect the

13     necessary data.

14        Q.   Could you explain, Mr. Buljan, to the Trial Chamber, you have

15     explained where you were in a territory that was jeopardized on the one

16     side by the Serb army, and on the other behind you was the Sava river,

17     where did you provide the treatment for members of your brigades who

18     needed such treatment?

19        A.   In the theatre of war of Orasje all the victims wounded were

20     first put up in a wartime hospital which is close to Orasje, maybe a

21     kilometre or two away from Orasje.  The place is called Tolisa in a

22     monastery.  Half of the monastery was used a wartime hospital, and the

23     other half of the Franciscan monastery was used for its original purpose.

24     So we first had to see whether the wounds could be treated there, and if

25     not then the closest larger hospital that we would send the war disabled

Page 4748

 1     to was in Slavonski Brod.

 2        Q.   Could I correct the transcript.  In line -- page 27, line 14, you

 3     mentioned the hospital of Tolisa.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   You said for the more difficult cases that they were sent to

 6     Slavonski Brod.  Was Slavonski Brod in Croatia?

 7        A.   Yes.  It is a small town on the Sava river across from Bosanski

 8     Brod.  So it is close to the occupied territory of Bosanski Posavina.

 9     The aim was to remove the wounded and transport them across the river.

10     There were no bridges there.  The bridge had been blown up at the

11     beginning of the war, so we used the ferries and boats to ferry them

12     across the river.

13        Q.   When we were speaking about the wounded, could you tell us

14     whether the wartime disabled were provided with any rehabilitation or

15     care after -- postoperative care, and where?

16        A.   Every serious wound or surgical intervention, even lighter ones,

17     required certain measure of rehabilitation, so that we sent our war

18     disabled to Tolisa in Croatia through the department for welfare of

19     Croatia.  And when possible they went to Varazdinska [phoen] and Toplica

20     [phoen], these are spas, Stublica [phoen], Toplica, again a spa for

21     therocell [phoen] therapy and that kind of treatment.

22        Q.   At a later stage or you tell us when, did the war disabled go to

23     motels in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24        A.   It was always a problem when all this was completed, that is his

25     rehabilitation.  If his house is somewhere in Modrica or Derventa or

Page 4749

 1     Bosanski Brod or Odzak, the question was where he could return to.  He

 2     was a seriously disabled person and he had nowhere to go, and so we put

 3     such people up in certain hotels.  One such was in Zenit in Krvavice

 4     [phoen], and later for the victims from Bosanska Posavina, again across

 5     the river from Orasje in Djakovo they were put up in an abandoned hotel,

 6     and this was a kind of centre where the war disabled could be

 7     accommodated after rehabilitation.

 8        Q.   You mentioned the Zenit hotel.  Where is this hotel?

 9        A.   The Zenit hotel is in Neum and Neum is in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10        Q.   Thank you.  When we are talking about treatment of war time

11     invalids and their rehabilitation and care for the families of the

12     killed, was any distinction made between Muslims and Croats who had

13     either been killed or wounded?

14        A.   When providing welfare or assistance to the families of the

15     wounded and the killed, and the missing, no distinction was made between

16     them.  The same care was provided for Croats, for Muslims, for a Serb who

17     may have been in an HVO unit, or for other volunteers or foreign

18     volunteers who may have been in HVO units.

19        Q.   Mr. Buljan, you said that the second stage of your activities

20     started sometime in mid-1995.  Could you explain what happened in this

21     second stage.  In the first we saw that you were collecting the basic

22     data as to the killed and the wounded.  What happened in the second

23     stage?

24        A.   In the first stage we collected the data that I indicated a

25     moment ago.  Also during that stage, that is up to 1995, the war disabled

Page 4750

 1     who had completed their rehabilitation were taken before first level

 2     commissions to establish the degree of disability.  And this document was

 3     required for a subsequent process which was initiated towards the end of

 4     2005 when I joined the welfare department, which led to the second level

 5     commissions when the percentage of their disability was established and

 6     assessed.

 7        Q.   Would you tell me why did it take so long?  Was it technically

 8     difficult not to engage in this activity immediately?  How demanding was

 9     it for everything to be done until you reached the second level

10     commission which established whether somebody was an invalid or a family

11     member of a killed soldier?

12        A.   We wanted all documents to be uniform.  There were files for the

13     victims and these forms had to be filled in, collected, then first level

14     commissions had to be formed who would express their findings and

15     assessments regarding the degree of damage.  The wartime invalids had to

16     complete their treatment for their condition to be assessed and because

17     of a shortage of manpower in the Defence Department who would carry out

18     these activities, it wasn't until the end of 1995 that this entire

19     process was completed and that there was a legal basis as stating that a

20     certain person was a wartime invalid with such and such a degree of

21     disability.  Until then they were invalids but they didn't have this

22     document certifying to that.

23        Q.   But we must not forget that throughout that period you did take

24     care of them as far as you were able?

25        A.   Certainly.  Various ways were found to assist the wounded or the

Page 4751

 1     families of victims.  Now, whether it involved extended rehabilitation,

 2     orthopaedic aids, or something else.

 3        Q.   Mr. Buljan, could you tell us when this second stage, this

 4     legalisation stage started, and when it was completed?  Was it ever

 5     completed?

 6        A.   No, it hasn't been completed to this day.  This is a process that

 7     will take some more time to be completed.

 8        Q.   We have another ten minutes until the break.  Could we look

 9     through some documents now linked to this part of your testimony.  Would

10     you look at document 2D 1245.  That should be the next document in your

11     binder after these reports.  Have you found it?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Mr. Buljan, I'd prefer you to speak about the documents, tell us

14     about the documents.  Can you tell us what we are dealing with here and

15     if I have any questions I'll put them to you.  This is a three-page

16     document and I'd like to go through it very briefly.

17        A.   This document shows that at the time referred to on the document,

18     well, this first document is dated the 4th of August, 1993.  This

19     document shows that the brigade commander, the commander of the 101st

20     Boski Brod Brigade, Zedjko [phoen] Barisic at the written request of the

21     Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia informs that a certain

22     person withdrew funds having been granted power of attorney, so this

23     demonstrates how one proceeded.

24        Q.   Mr. Buljan, we can see that we are dealing with Smajo Mahmutovic.

25     That's why we chose this example.  You said that all individuals were

Page 4752

 1     taken care of regardless of the ethnicity.  So the family of a HVO

 2     soldier from the 101st Brigade is concerned.  If this soldier was killed,

 3     and it says that the authorised agent, Omar Carsovic no longer wishes to

 4     collect the salary, and they therefore request Mira, it's probably the

 5     wife or family member, they request her to inform the brigade who the new

 6     authorised agent will be.  Don't speculate if you don't know the answer,

 7     but on the basis of his name, Mr. Smajo Mahmutovic, would you say this

 8     was a Muslim or Bosniak?

 9        A.   Yes, he is a Muslim, that is a Muslim name, so that's just one

10     such example.

11        Q.   The next document -- the next page is a document authorizing

12     someone providing power of attorney.  Have a look at the third sheet, the

13     third page, it mentions certain sums that were paid for this individual

14     who was killed; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.  It's a Bosanski Brod, 3rd of August, 1993.

16        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Buljan, have a look at the following document,

17     2D 00749.  This is a decision on appointing medical commission in Mostar.

18     It's signed by Bruno Stojic.  The date is the 17th of March, 1993.  It's

19     a commission for military disabled in Mostar.  We can see that there are

20     certain doctors concerned, their names seem to indicate that they are

21     Muslims.  So could you comment on the document?  I don't like to

22     emphasise the fact that in the HVO, at the time there were both Croats

23     and Muslims and there were some members of some other ethnic groups.

24        A.   Yes.  This is a decision on nominating a higher or, rather,

25     second degree medical commission in Mostar, and you can see the

Page 4753

 1     composition of the medical commission.  And the under number 2 you can

 2     see Dr. Ramo Omanovic, you can see that this is a Muslim, a Bosniak.

 3        Q.   Mr. Buljan, you told us about the first part of your work, and

 4     then the second part that later involved implementing legal procedures to

 5     determine the invalidity status of given individuals and to determine how

 6     someone was killed, whether someone was a victim in the war, whether

 7     someone was a military invalid.  So where would you place this decision

 8     on the nomination of a higher medical commission and this is what

 9     Mr. Stojic did in March 1993?

10        A.   Well, I think this decision preceded other decisions that were

11     subsequently taken with regard to this second degree commission.  But at

12     the time that this decision was issued, it perhaps wasn't possible to act

13     on the decision immediately because there was no infrastructure in place

14     in all the Defence Departments.

15        Q.   Very well.  Let's have a look at the following document,

16     2D 01246.  That's the next document, and this is an order from Bruno

17     Stojic again forwarded to the operations zones and to the Mostar HVO,

18     Tomislavgrad-Orasje-Vitez, the Defence Department.  This is September

19     1993.  Please, could you tell the Court, is this one such attempt, is

20     this an attempt made by Mr. Stojic to ensure that the legal aspects of

21     this problem came into force?

22        A.   Yes.  This is a document that was to be used by those who weren't

23     willing to do what was requested in the order.  So in a certain sense

24     this is a new order in which people being requested to respect certain

25     dead-lines with respect to providing means of work for people who were

Page 4754

 1     involved in welfare.

 2        Q.   The people who were involved in welfare; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, let's have a look at document 2D 01247.  This is a decision

 5     signed by Mr. Stojic.  The date is not really legible, but as you've

 6     already seen this document you know what it is?

 7        A.   Yes.  This is a decision on appointing a department for the

 8     protection of municipalities.  They will decide on the rights of veterans

 9     and of killed soldiers from areas temporarily occupied.  The HR BH,

10     Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.  In such conditions, when someone

11     loses their municipality, one acts differently.  There aren't enough

12     people, there aren't enough professionals, and then it's not possible to

13     work.  These were long term processes, procedures.  You needed staff to

14     be involved in these areas.  You needed salaries for these people.

15     Remuneration.

16             This decision aided everyone who wasn't in their own territory,

17     or in this order you can see who is responsible for drafting certain

18     documents in relation to certain individuals.

19        Q.   You said individuals who weren't in their territory, because the

20     territory was occupied, did that include you?

21        A.   Yes.  The territory of the Derventa municipality was completely

22     under Serbian control from the 6th of October 1992.

23             MS. NOZICA:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise.  I would

24     now like to move on to a more demanding document.  I'd need a few minutes

25     to deal with it, so would you rather we had a break now.  I leave it to

Page 4755

 1     you to decide.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, you've used an hour

 3     and 20 minutes up, so you have another 40 minutes.  We'll have a break

 4     now.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, you have the floor.

 8             MS. NOZICA:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Mr. Buljan, let's please have a look at the following document,

10     2D 600626.  You have it before you?  Could you briefly tell the Chamber

11     who drafted this document and could you tell us about the contents of the

12     document.  We have another 20 minutes, and I'd like you to comment on the

13     other documents too.  We have another 40 minutes, I apologise.

14        A.   This document was drafted by the welfare administration.  I was

15     the head of that administration.  Five defence administrations were

16     analysed, the total number of dead is shown, the number of those who died

17     when they were salaried, the number of wounded is shown, the number of

18     wounded involved in units, the number of wounded with salaries are shown,

19     reasons for which certain individuals were salaried, the number of those

20     missing and those missing with salaries.  So this is a more detailed

21     analysis.  It's a report drafted by the welfare administration.

22        Q.   The date of this document is the 30th of November, 1996.  Could

23     you tell the Chamber whether this is the first time that such detailed

24     information was obtained, and is this the result of the work that was

25     carried out, as you said, in the second phase when conditions were in

Page 4756

 1     place to gather this kind of information?

 2        A.   Yes.  This is the result of that work.  As I said, this is

 3     information that is a little more detailed.  You have figures on the

 4     status of the casualties of the war invalids for whom there were certain

 5     decisions for compensation.  There were certain decisions where the

 6     status of invalids was recognised.  So these were some of the first

 7     reports that were drafted.

 8        Q.   Before we move on it to documents that also show the ethnicity of

 9     the individuals and the number of the individuals killed and the number

10     of war invalids and the brigades in your operation zone, before we do

11     that could you look at 2D 00150.  It's a separate document, the Judges

12     also have a separate document.  It's a report dated the 9th of June,

13     1996.  And it's an analysis of the ethnicity of the individuals

14     concerned.  It's document 2D 00150.  Yes, that's the one.

15             Mr. Buljan, could you please comment on figures for the unit

16     members that you are familiar with.  It's on the second page, and these

17     figures concern Muslims and Croats.  On what basis were these figures

18     provided, was this information provided, and can you confirm that this

19     information is in fact correct?

20        A.   Well, I'm looking at document from 1993 signed by the chief of

21     the personnel department Jure Brkic.  At the time he was the person

22     authorised to sign such documents.  And as far as the ethnicity of the

23     members of the 101st, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6th brigade of the HVO, and they

24     were in the Orasje battle-field, on that side of the corridor, as far as

25     their ethnicity is concerned, well I think that what is shown here is

Page 4757

 1     correct.

 2        Q.   Very well.  Can we confirm once more that this document dated the

 3     9th of June, 1993, that it is a document from 1993 and not from 1996,

 4     which is what it says on page 35, line 25.

 5             Mr. Buljan, let's have a look at the following document, 2D

 6     00604.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  Witness, this

 8     is an important document, and as you were from the 103rd Brigade you will

 9     certainly be able to answer my question.  I wanted to ask you the

10     following:  In the month that this document was drafted in June 1993, at

11     that time were you the acting commander of the 103rd Brigade?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, in June 1993 I wasn't the

13     acting commander of the 103rd Derventa Brigade, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Where were you in

15     1993?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In June 1993, I was the chief of

17     the welfare department in the Bosanska Posavina operations zone.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So you were in that

19     operation zone.  In the operation zone, there were HVO units in which

20     there were Muslims too, yes or no?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So do you know that

23     in May 1993 there were certain events that took place in Mostar?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Do you know that

Page 4758

 1     there were Muslims who were arrested or displaced or detained, let's say

 2     that they were taken from point A to point B, for some of them -- or some

 3     of them were taken to the Heliodrom, so we don't have to go into legal

 4     problems.  Are you aware of that, yes or no?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are not aware of that.

 7     Very well.  And now for my last question which will be very simple.

 8     Given the events in May in Mostar, well, did these events have any

 9     repercussions with regard to the HVO units involved in combat?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  Very well.

12             MS. NOZICA:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

13        Q.   Judge Antonetti asked you where you were at the time that these

14     reports were forwarded, and you said that you were in the operation zone

15     and you performed the duties you mentioned.  Regardless of that

16     position -- well, in the case of the 103rd Brigade, can you confirm that

17     this information is correct because in spite of the fact that you were in

18     the operation zone, you were in contact with the brigades that were part

19     of that operation zone?

20        A.   If we are still dealing with the document from 1993, 2D 00150,

21     and if we are talking about the six brigades that were in the Orasje

22     battle-field, I can confirm and I do confirm that the ethnic

23     composition -- well, was multiethnic, and I think that -- what you can

24     see in the document reflects the actual situation.

25        Q.   Thank you, can we now move on to another document, 2D 00604.

Page 4759

 1             Mr. Buljan, since the document mentions your name, could you

 2     briefly tell the Chamber what this document is?

 3        A.   Well, when I had certain information according to which I would

 4     be testifying before this Court, I asked the administration for those who

 5     were casualties in the homeland war, from the County Posavska, so that's

 6     the place where I worked and why I put this system into place, I asked

 7     that that office provide me with information.  I asked them to provide me

 8     with information where everything was broken down on the base of people's

 9     ethnicity.  I can see that the information is quite precise.  Their first

10     names, last names, name of father, and there is the identity, personal

11     identity name.

12        Q.   Can we please go on to the next document, that's 2D 00605.  We

13     are now moving on to the set of documents, the lists that were submitted

14     to you.  Now, I would like to dwell a little longer on the first one in

15     order to explain to the Chamber what the list means and how it's

16     structured.

17        A.   This list contains names of members of the HVO who were killed

18     who hailed from Bosanski Brod municipality and these were ethnic Croats.

19     This is the 101st Bosanski Brod Brigade, the HVO.  This is a list

20     containing all the names of the members who were killed.  First name,

21     last name, father's name, and personal identification number.  The record

22     is accurate and complete.  Also, at the end of this document we see a

23     reference here to the 106th Brigade [indiscernible] from Orasje and the

24     Defence Ministry HR HB and the Derventa police administration is

25     mentioned, too.  Therefore, these lists were produced in such a way as to

Page 4760

 1     indicate all the information in relation to all the members from a given

 2     municipality regardless of where they came to grief, or what unit they

 3     were members of when they were killed.

 4        Q.   All right.  If we look at the first list we see a total of 230

 5     members who were ethnic Croats.  This is a followed by a list of members

 6     of the HVO who were killed from Bosanski Brod municipality and these were

 7     ethnic Bosniaks; right?

 8        A.   Yes.  This was done in much the same way as the previous part of

 9     the list, the 101st Bosanski Brod Brigade were the ethnic Croats, so the

10     next list was produced in relation to the same unit but it pertains to

11     ethnic Bosniaks, or Muslims if you like.

12        Q.   All right.  The last page of this document in the Croatian

13     version says, "Members of the HVO killed who are from Bosanski Brod

14     municipality.  Other ethnicities."  Isn't that what it says?

15        A.   Yes.  And this indicates that there were a total of 13 members of

16     the 103rd Bosanski Brod who were killed who belonged to other

17     ethnicities.  They were neither Croats nor Bosniaks.

18        Q.   It might be better to go back to this first document and then

19     we'll go on with a series of documents.  There are a number of those and

20     they are all structured in the same way.  All these are members of the

21     Croatian, Bosniak, and other ethnicities who were killed during clashes

22     with which army?  Can you be specific one more time, please?

23        A.   The members of all these six units that I mentioned, the units

24     that we are now talking about throughout the war were only ever clashing

25     with the Serb army.

Page 4761

 1        Q.   Mr. Buljan, could you also tell me whether all these members that

 2     we are about to show, were taken care of in the way you described a

 3     minute ago, were looked after regardless of their ethnicity.  We are

 4     talking about those killed.  Were their families looked after, all

 5     equally regardless of their ethnic backgrounds?

 6        A.   The families of all these persons who were killed were looked

 7     after in much the same way, regardless of their ethnicity.

 8        Q.   All right.  Let's move quickly through the following documents

 9     2D 00606, that is the next document that is up.

10             The same kind of material but here we are dealing with members of

11     the HVO Orasje municipality who were killed; right?

12        A.   Yes, that's right.  It follows from this.  This is the 106th

13     Brigade of the HVO, Orasje, and the information was prepared in the same

14     way as in relation to the previous unit that we dealt with.

15        Q.   Could you then please move on to 2D 00607.

16        A.   The situation was this, the Bihac HVO was isolated within the

17     Bihac pocket itself.  They were alone and they belonged to no one in

18     practical terms, so a number of people were killed who belonged to those

19     units.  It was easier for them to cross into Croatia and then reach

20     Orasje via Croatia.  It was decided that the welfare section of Orasje

21     should take care of those who had been killed in the Bihac area.

22        Q.   Could you now please move on to 2D 00608.

23        A.   This is the 108 Brigade, the Brcko Brigade of the HVO.  It was on

24     the other side of the corridor across the Orasje frontline.  The corridor

25     ranged from somewhere near Brcko and then down the whole length of the

Page 4762

 1     line being held by the HVO and then further up towards Banja Luka.  This

 2     unit was on the other side, the breadth of the corridor involved, we used

 3     to say, was within a decent firing range, that's what we used to say.  So

 4     certain members went to the Republic of Croatia to receive treatment and

 5     for rehabilitation.  So whenever this was the case, it was my department

 6     that would take care of it.

 7        Q.   All right.  Can we now please move on to 2D 00608.  Oh, we just

 8     looked at that one.  So this is 2D 00609.

 9        A.   This is the 103rd Brigade, the Derventa Brigade of the HVO, and

10     all the information contained in this document was processed in much the

11     same way as all the previous units.

12        Q.   Can we please move on to the next document then, 2D 006010 --

13     610, in relation to Modrica.  Can you explain this one please?

14        A.   The same sort of situation.  Again, sometime midway through 1992,

15     about July, Modrica fell.  And all the soldiers from Modrica municipality

16     crossed over into the Orasje theatre of war.  So this was another brigade

17     that was in our care.

18        Q.   The next document is 2D 00611?

19        A.   Everything that I said in relation to the previous document, the

20     105 Modrica Brigade, again this is a town that is adjacent to Modrica,

21     this is Odzak, they are adjacent municipalities, and the same applies to

22     Odzak.  And the information was processed in much the same way in

23     relation to Odzak municipality.

24        Q.   Now, let's move on 2D 00612.  This is a list of the members of

25     the HVO who were killed in Tuzla municipality.  Was Tuzla part of your

Page 4763

 1     operation zone, and can you please explain whether and why you looked

 2     after these members as well?

 3        A.   Again the 103 Tuzla Zrinski Brigade was very much alike of the

 4     previous ones.  This one was adjacent to the 108 Brigade of the Croatian

 5     Defence Council from Brcko and we looked after it the same way as we did

 6     after the members of the 108 Brigade.

 7        Q.   Can you move please move on to the next document.  This is

 8     2D 00613.  Here is a reference to a list of members killed in Gradacac

 9     municipality.  Croats and other ethnicities as well.

10        A.   Yes.  Again the 7th Brigade of the HVO, Gradacac, is the other

11     side of the corridor.  And all the members of the 107 Gradacac Brigade

12     who, during the combat operations, left the zone, and if my department

13     had access to them, were looked after the same way as long as they were

14     in the Orasje area as all the other brigades that were on that side of

15     the corridor.

16        Q.   Can we now please move on to 2D 00614.

17        A.   These are the killed and wounded members of the 104 Brigade of

18     the HVO Bosanska Samac.  This brigade, for the most part -- well, was

19     located in Domaljevac, the same place as my own brigade, and this

20     information was processed in the same way.

21        Q.   Just to be specific as possible, this is the a list of members

22     who were killed, and we are only about to get to the wounded; right?

23        A.   Yes, yes, yes.  You are entirely right, I apologise.

24        Q.   Could you now please move on to 2D 00615.

25             This is a list of the invalids of war, HVO, Bihac municipality,

Page 4764

 1     Croats.  And the document moves on to a list of war invalids, Bihac

 2     municipality, ethnic Bosniaks, and then other ethnicities.

 3             Can you just please confirm that all the following lists were

 4     processed and produced according to the same methodology, regardless of

 5     the fact that they are in relation or about war invalids as opposed to

 6     the previous ones?

 7        A.   Yes, all of the ones that we've gone through and all of the ones

 8     that we've commented on dealt with members of the HVO who were killed,

 9     and now we come to the war invalids of the HVO, and again the information

10     was processed in the same way as in relation to previous lists.

11        Q.   Just briefly, could you look at 2D 00616.  Again, war invalids,

12     Bosanski Brod municipality, all ethnicities; right?

13        A.   Yes, this is the 101 Bosanski Brod Brigade.  Again, a list of all

14     war invalids, Croats, Bosniaks, other ethnicities.

15        Q.   Fine, move on to the next one.  2D 00617.  This is a list of war

16     invalids for Bosanski Samac municipality, all ethnicities; right?

17        A.   Yes, this is a list of war invalids of the HVO, Samac

18     municipality, 104 - that is the number of the Brigade - HVO.  Again, this

19     was produced and processed in the same way as the previous documents.

20        Q.   Next one up is 2D 00168.  War invalids from Brcko municipality

21     all ethnicities; right?

22        A.   Yes.  Members of the 108 Brigade of the HVO.  Again, listed in

23     the same way as those previously.

24        Q.   Next one is 2D 00169.  War invalids -- 619.  Derventa

25     municipality.  All ethnicities; right?

Page 4765

 1        A.   Yes, yes, yes.  That's right.  This is 103, the 103 Derventa

 2     Brigade of the HVO, and the list was produced to be able to contain all

 3     the elements that were contained in previous reports in relation to

 4     previous that we've gone through.

 5        Q.   Next one up is 2D 620.  This is a list of war invalids from

 6     Gradacac municipality?

 7        A.   This is the 107th Brigade of the HVO, Gradacac.  Again, processed

 8     much in the same way as the previous ones.  War invalids, Croats,

 9     Bosniaks, and other ethnicities.

10        Q.   Can we now please move on to 2D 00621.

11        A.   This is a list of the one -- of five members of the HVO from

12     Modrica municipality, or, rather, members of the 105 Brigade of the HVO,

13     Modrica Brigade.  The list was put together in much the same way as all

14     of the previous lists that we've been looking at.

15        Q.   Next one up is 2D 00622.

16        A.   The list of war invalids of the HVO Odzak municipality, Croats,

17     the 102 Brigade of the HVO.  Bosniaks, other ethnicities, members of that

18     municipality who were killed -- or wounded, rather, I do apologise, while

19     the -- serving in other units.

20        Q.   The last in this series of documents is 2D 00624, and you are the

21     one who provided these documents for our benefit.

22        A.   Another HVO document, the 115 Brigade of HVO, Zrinski, Tuzla,

23     processed in the same way as all the other documents.

24        Q.   Mr. Buljan, this completes our overview of documents in relation

25     to those killed as well as war invalids from the Bosanski Posavina zone,

Page 4766

 1     which is the zone in which you were active.  Let us try to wrap up this

 2     story by asking the following question.  All of these members, or,

 3     rather, their families and war invalids, were looked after equally in the

 4     same way based on what you told us regardless of their ethnicity?

 5        A.   All of the HVO members, regardless of their ethnicity, were

 6     looked after in the same way and to the same extent.

 7        Q.   Can we now please move on to the next document, 2D 00627.  This

 8     is a document submitted by the federal ministry for combatants and

 9     invalids of the homeland war.  It is also called the federal ministry for

10     defenders and invalids of the homeland war.  The date is the 12th of

11     March, 2008, and I was the one who requested a copy of this document.

12             Can we please just check what the document is about and then you

13     will confirm for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, as long as you can,

14     whether this ministry was the relevant ministry for issuing this sort of

15     information or indicators.  This is a list containing the names of the

16     members of the 4th HVO Brigade, the Stjepan Radic Brigade from Ljubuski,

17     these are the ethnic Bosniaks.  And it gives you the names, the years of

18     birth, and the time spent in service.  The 31st of May, 1992 ending with

19     the 15th of July, 1993.

20             Mr. Buljan, can you please confirm because you, too, were working

21     with the federal bodies, this ministry would have been responsible for

22     issuing information like this?

23        A.   I think this ministry might have issued information of this

24     nature.

25        Q.   Can we now please move on to a different document and this is

Page 4767

 1     P 4756.  This is a meeting of the collegium of Defence Department heads,

 2     and it was held on the 2nd of September, 1993.  Mr. Buljan, can you

 3     please tell the Chamber whether perhaps you attended this meeting of the

 4     collegium?

 5        A.   No, I did not attend this meeting.

 6        Q.   Can we please go to page 5.  Have a look please.  Specifically

 7     item 6.  May I just draw your attention to a particular portion

 8     pertaining to the welfare structure.  So item 6 reads, this is the last

 9     sentence of paragraph 2 that I'm about to read back to you.

10             "The new organisation scheme for the general care [as

11     interpreted] administration was adopted and the conclusion was reached

12     that the families of those Muslim members of the HVO who were killed

13     should still receive assistance."

14             Judge Antonetti asked you whether you knew what was going on in

15     May, you say you didn't.  And I'm asking you based on this document, does

16     it not seem to follow that the families of those Croat members who were

17     killed were looked after -- even after the 2nd of September, 1993?  And

18     my other question in relation to this is:  Based on your knowledge did

19     the care continue after this?  Because you did have all the information,

20     didn't you, once you were in a position to consolidate all this

21     information based on the reports that we've looked at?

22        A.   This conclusion shows that the Muslim members as indicated here

23     were looked after up and until this conclusion, and I can assert in no

24     uncertain terms that that the care continued after this conclusion.  I

25     don't know what the back drop was for this collegium meeting and what

Page 4768

 1     exactly was discussed; however, these were times in Bosnia-Herzegovina

 2     when there was a war between Croats and Serbs, between Serbs and

 3     Bosniaks, between Bosniaks and Croats, between Bosniaks and Bosniaks.

 4     Someone was probably asking themselves what to do in a given situation.

 5     But here I'll repeat this, both before and after this, all of the members

 6     of the HVO received the same care in the same way and to the same extent.

 7        Q.   Would you now look, please at 2D 00625, please, and explain to

 8     Their Honours what this is?

 9        A.   In my introduction I said that for a certain period of time I was

10     deputy director of the federal administration for questions of veterans

11     and invalids of the homeland war.  Therefore, the director, Ivanisevic

12     and myself agreed that for the first time we should sit down and exchange

13     information about the killed, wounded, and missing members so that at the

14     time I had the data regarding members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

15     and for him to be informed about members of the HVO who had been killed

16     and wounded and who were missing.  So this was an effort on our part,

17     that is the director and myself, we exchanged data about these matters.

18        Q.   Unfortunately, I have to ask you this:  The director of the

19     federal administration was Mr. Suad Porusovic [phoen], is he a Bosniak

20     ethnicity I have to ask that you?

21        A.   Yes, he is a Bosniak ethnicity.  In that period appointments were

22     made in such a way that if the director was a Bosniak, then the deputy

23     would be a Croat and vice-versa.

24        Q.   I didn't ask you at the beginning and that is my omission, were

25     you ever a member of the HDZ party?

Page 4769

 1        A.   No, I was never a member of that party.

 2        Q.   By this protocol, you actually carried out the first exchange of

 3     data regarding the members of the HVO and the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 4     What in fact were the two of you endeavouring to achieve by doing this?

 5        A.   The war had only just ended.  We are talking about 1998 -- or

 6     recently ended, the war ended with the Dayton Agreements, but on the

 7     ground the situation continued tense maybe until mid-1996.  And director

 8     Porusovic and myself agreed that to begin with we would exchange

 9     information so as at least to have the numbers right.  How many there

10     were of the various populations so that we could adopt a common approach

11     in relations with the government so that a certain decree or law would be

12     passed to deal in an equal manner with the problems of the victims,

13     members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the HVO.

14        Q.   Did that happen, was any such regulation passed?

15        A.   I have to say that I didn't have the good fortune during our term

16     of office for such regulations to be passed.  We worked hard on this.  We

17     prepared a law.  The only difference between the two of us was that I

18     disagreed regarding only two articles of the entire law.  I thought that

19     the basis for calculating the assistance to be given for invalids, all

20     invalids in the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina as well as for the

21     families of the killed and missing, should be based on the average

22     salaries of the active duty officer.  However, my colleague Porusovic did

23     not agree.  He thought that the average for the entire Federation of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina should be used.  We prepared such a draft law, we sent

25     it to the government, it was adopted by the government.  I can't remember

Page 4770

 1     how many votes were in favour, how many against, but when that law came

 2     before the parliament of the Federation, the parliament was divided in

 3     its views along the same lines as the two of us differed.  However, when

 4     it was eventually adopted, we were no longer holding those posts.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Nozica, you have another

 6     five minutes left.

 7             MS. NOZICA:  [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I have that in

 8     mind.  I only have one more document.

 9        Q.   As far as I can understand you, the problem was the amount that

10     the individuals were entitled to, not who was entitled to this

11     remuneration?

12        A.   The problem was not who would be remunerated, the dates were not

13     at issue, the beginning and the end, the extent of welfare assistance was

14     not in question, but simply the basis upon which this remuneration was to

15     be calculated.

16        Q.   The last document is 2D 00628, and could you explain to Their

17     Honours what it is?

18        A.   Yes, we have before us a law on the rights of defenders and

19     members of their families adopted by the parliament of the Federation of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  What colleague Porusovic and myself failed to do in

21     1998 and 1999, the colleagues who took over later, four years later, this

22     law appeared in the Official Gazette of Bosnia-Herzegovina number 33 in

23     the year 2004.  And Article number 2 defines what I was speaking about a

24     moment ago and the parliament adopted it and this law was adopted.  And

25     after it came into force, it was implemented.

Page 4771

 1        Q.   Can you tell us with respect to the law who is defined as a

 2     defender?

 3        A.   Article 2, Article 2 speaks of members of the family, but it all

 4     defines the defenders as members of the Army of the Republic of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina of the Croatian Defence Council and of the police

 6     force of the relevant Internal Affairs body who participated in the

 7     Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The beginning of the aggression, being

 8     the 18th of September, 1991, up until the 23rd of December, 1996.

 9        Q.   So the beginning is the date when the municipality of Ravno was

10     attacked; is that right?  So this applied to members of the HVO and of

11     the army, and they enjoyed equal rights regardless of whether they were

12     Muslims or Croats?

13        A.   This law defined the rights and entitlements of the defenders.

14        Q.   I would like to say that on page 50, line 5, I asked you to look

15     at Article 2, and you have read out Article 2 so that this should be

16     quite clear in the transcript; is that right?

17        A.   Yes, I just read Article 2.

18        Q.   Thank you very much.  Thank you for your testimony, and that

19     brings to an end my examination-in-chief of this witness, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a question, a

21     very simple one, to put to you, but it refers to the beginning of your

22     testimony when Madam Nozica asked you what you were doing and you told us

23     that your brigade was facing the Serbs.  Can you confirm that?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am afraid I have not

25     understood your question.

Page 4772

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  At the very

 2     beginning of your testimony, my understanding was that you said at

 3     certain point in time that your brigade was on the frontline confronting

 4     the Serbs, is that what you told us?

 5             MS. NOZICA:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, we didn't have an

 6     interpretation, that is why the witness is not able to answer.  He didn't

 7     get an interpretation.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You heard now?

 9             MS. NOZICA:  [Interpretation] Yes, I apologise.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have heard you.  The 103rd

11     Derventa Brigade throughout the war was confronting the Serbs and that

12     was the positions we held.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  In the 103rd

14     Brigade, there were Muslims and Croats?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You yourself and your comrade

17     soldiers, what were you defending facing the Serbs?  Were you defending

18     the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you were defending Herceg-Bosna, you

19     were defending the territory of Posavina?  What were you defending?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the first part of

21     my testimony I said I was born in Kuljanovci which is a locality 5

22     kilometres from Derventa.  On the 8th of April, I was at my work-place,

23     and in the afternoon the Serbian army shelled my village, the village I

24     was born in.  From my village almost right up to Banja Luka, there's not

25     a single other Croatian village.  That is the only Croatian village

Page 4773

 1     there.  All of us in the whole army, including Bosniaks, Croats, and all

 2     others, we were defending our territory.  I wanted to return where I went

 3     daily from work.  So that was our aim, for the Croats to continue living

 4     where they were living before, to live in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Another question

 6     which has nothing to do with the previous question and it will be my

 7     last.

 8             We were looking at the documents with the statistics of people

 9     killed and wounded, and I have to tell you, I was deeply impressed with

10     the figures I see.  There were 780 wounded, thousands of killed,

11     thousands of wounded, therefore I assume that many families were affected

12     by this conflict.  Does this create such traumatism today?  Does this

13     trauma still exist?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, certainly after events

15     of this kind and everything that happened, all those who were affected

16     and especially those who lost their loved ones, their fathers, and their

17     children, certainly they are traumatised.  Some of them more, some of

18     them less.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I'm looking at D3,

20     D4, et cetera.

21             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm on my

22     feet for the first, though the Defence of Coric has no question for this

23     witness, but this is our order of appearance so I wish to avoid any

24     confusion.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 4774

 1             MR. IBRISIMOVIC:  Mr. President, we have no questions.  Thank

 2     you.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] D1.

 4             MR. KARNAVAS:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.  Your Honours, we

 5     have no questions for the gentleman, and we wish to thank him for coming

 6     here to give his evidence.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll leave out D2.  So D3 next.

 8             MR. KOVACIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours and everybody in the

 9     courtroom.  Praljak Defence will have a couple of questions, and when I

10     finish I think that Mr. Praljak would like to raise only one question

11     related to the geography mainly.  Perhaps we'll get the maps in the

12     meantime.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:

14        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Buljan, I'm Defence counsel for Mr. Praljak.

15     We have met and I will have a few questions for you.

16             You told us everything about your activities, the positions you

17     held in the 103rd Brigade and the operation zone at the very beginning of

18     your testimony.  Tell me, please, you said that in July 1992, you

19     actually had to leave your positions in Derventa and the surroundings and

20     that you were slowly retreating essentially towards the territory of the

21     Republic of Croatia, that is, towards Bosanski Brod; is that right?

22        A.   Yes, that is right.  We were retreating towards Bosanski Brod as

23     Bosanski Brod is across the river from Slavonski Brod, that is where we

24     went.

25        Q.   Perhaps we should explain the geography for Their Honours, which

Page 4775

 1     they may not be familiar with.  So the entire area of Posavina is the

 2     northern part of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Basically, it is the region along

 3     the Sava river, and that is why it is called Posavina, and actually it is

 4     a border region bordering on the Republic of Croatia; is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Your enemy that you fought, the JNA or the Serbs, were pushing

 7     you into that area towards Sava from the southeastern part, from your

 8     southeastern part; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you were pushed into a narrow area south of the Sava river;

11     is that right?

12        A.   Yes, that's right.

13        Q.   On the northern side of the river, though the border doesn't

14     follow strictly the Sava river, but anyway northward in relation to the

15     Sava is the frontier with the Republic of Croatia?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   And when the Serb offensive is squeezing you into an ever smaller

18     area, you have nowhere to go?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   After Derventa fell, the civilians were withdrawing towards

21     Croatia too, weren't they?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And in a couple of days in July 1992, a certain number of

24     civilians and a number of soldiers that had abandoned the HVO were on

25     the -- in the meadows east of Bosanski Brod intending to cross the Sava

Page 4776

 1     to go to Bosanski Brod and Croatia; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Can you give us a rough idea of what the numbers were, are we

 4     talking hundreds or thousands?

 5        A.   I think that one could say that there were thousands.  I couldn't

 6     say whether it was 3.000 or 2.000, but the area where they were sitting

 7     during the day and the night, and the command of my brigade was close by

 8     too so that I saw those people.

 9        Q.   And those people had nowhere to go; is that right?

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, there's a problem.

11             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, from Bosanski

12     Brod to Slavonski Brod, and here is says from Bosanski Brod to Bosanski

13     Brod.  People were going line 23.

14             MR. KOVACIC:  [Interpretation]

15        Q.   We'll repeat that for the record.  People from the surroundings

16     of Bosanski Brod, which means the territory of the Republic of

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina, wanted to cross the Sava to the north in the

18     direction of Slavonski Brod; is that right?

19        A.   Yes, from the Derventa and from Bosanski Brod, some people had

20     come earlier from Modrica and Odzak, which is the territory of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they gathered there in front of the bridge

22     intending to enter the Republic of Croatia.

23        Q.   Why did they assemble there?  Why couldn't they cross over into

24     the Republic of Croatia?

25        A.   At that time, I don't know why, but I know it was physically

Page 4777

 1     impossible to cross over because at the time there were obstacles on the

 2     bridge and passage over the bridge was not allowed.

 3        Q.   If I have obtained correct information, the Bosnian authorities

 4     weren't controlling that border pass, the Croatian authorities wouldn't

 5     allow the people to cross over, they controlled the pass; is that

 6     correct?

 7        A.   I think that at that time at that pass there were police forces

 8     from Bosanski Brod, from Bosnia-Herzegovina, and from Croatia, but you

 9     know, when you are entering someone else's state then you always ask the

10     police of that state for permission to enter the state.

11        Q.   Correct.  And that when on for a few days because the Croatian

12     authorities wouldn't allow those refugees to cross over into the

13     territory of Croatia?

14        A.   That went on for a few days.  I can't say whether it went on for

15     three or four days, but it certainly lasted for a number of days.

16        Q.   And then finally the border was opened and the people started

17     crossing over; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes, at one point in time, the border was opened.

19        Q.   How long was necessary, half a day, a day, three days, for those

20     people to cross over?  Roughly speaking, I know no one knows the precise

21     answer?

22        A.   I don't know how long was needed, but people would simply cross

23     over the bridge, it's fairly quick.

24        Q.   Very well.  And they crossed over into Croatia?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4778

 1        Q.   Since you were in the immediate vicinity at the time, it was

 2     naturally a problem because the people were in the field and no care was

 3     provided for them.  Bosanski Brod was under fire, it was being shelled by

 4     Serbian forces; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.  This occurred on a daily basis and on a number of

 6     occasions.  Bosanski Brod and its surroundings were shelled on a daily

 7     basis.

 8        Q.   Could we say that those refugees, those people were in fact

 9     constantly exposed to danger?

10        A.   Absolutely, they were constantly exposed to danger.  More so than

11     other people?

12        Q.   When they finally started crossing over, since you were there,

13     did you hear anything about how this pass was opened up?  Did anyone play

14     a role in this and if so, who?

15        A.   In my command amongst the troops there were rumours according to

16     which the person responsible for opening up the pass was General Praljak.

17     I can't confirm that I saw the general down there at the time, but I

18     wasn't there all the time.  Our lines were below Bosanski Brod, but I

19     know that such rumours were spread at the time.

20        Q.   So there were such information relayed by those people at the

21     time in that narrow stretch of territory?

22        A.   Yes, that's what was said.

23        Q.   On the following days after those people had already entered the

24     territory of Croatia, did you perhaps hear anything about a certain

25     conflict, a clash of some kind, a clash of various opinions between

Page 4779

 1     General Praljak and the authorities in the Republic of Croatia with

 2     regard to opening up this pass?

 3        A.   Well, I think that I can say that there were such rumours, such

 4     things were discussed.  It was said that certain leading individuals in

 5     the Republic of Croatia would take certain punitive measures directed at

 6     General Praljak because of what had been done.  I can't say that I read

 7     about it or saw this on television, but this is what soldiers spoke about

 8     amongst themselves.

 9        Q.   Very well.  Let me reminds you of something.  I'd like to provide

10     a time-frame for what we are talking about.  Before that exodus and quite

11     a long time before that exodus, Vukovar had already fallen and the

12     Serbian forces had taken a large part of Slavonia; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Do you know that at that time or later on Croatia had a lot of

15     its own refugees?

16        A.   I know that there were displaced individuals.  It was a difficult

17     situation, there was a war, and you have the population moving from

18     certain towns, and so on and so forth.

19        Q.   As an educated man and someone who was in particular involved in

20     the field of welfare, do you know that Croatia in fact had a huge burden

21     because it had to take care of its own citizens who had been displaced

22     because of the war, and it had to take care of refugees from

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina as well?

24        A.   That's absolutely correct.

25        Q.   Very well.  Tell me something else --

Page 4780

 1             MS. WEST.  Objection.  Sorry to interrupt.  Good afternoon, Mr.

 2     President, Your Honours, and everyone in and around the courtroom.

 3             I'm just -- a couple of comments here.  First and foremost I've

 4     let this -- I've not commented on this, but this is beyond the scope of

 5     cross-examination.  Secondly, it's unclear to me how this would be

 6     relevant to our indictment.  And thirdly, if you are inclined to let it

 7     continue, I would ask that it not be leading questions.

 8             MR. KOVACIC:  Your Honour, if I may respond.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak -- I apologise,

10     Mr. Kovacic, before you continue to discuss this subject, I'd like to

11     suggest to my colleagues that we withdraw or deduct certain time from the

12     time allocated to you, because these aren't questions that arose in the

13     course of the examination-in-chief.

14             MR. KOVACIC:  [Interpretation] If I can respond to what my

15     colleague said.  It's quite clear that my subject relates to testimony of

16     this witness.  I went beyond the scope only when I tried to give a

17     time-frame for the event.  I tried to refer to parallel events, to the

18     situation in Croatia at the time that these refugees arrived.  So this

19     was just a reference.  This was just a context I wanted to provide.  If

20     you want to deduct that time from me, I'm in your hands, but I think that

21     it's necessary for me to link up certain events to the situation on the

22     ground.  If you're not interested in that, I won't explore this any

23     further and I didn't intend to do so in any case.

24        Q.   Witness, when those people crossed the bridge to enter Croatia,

25     et cetera, I think we said that there were some soldiers who had fled the

Page 4781

 1     lines, were falling or had fallen, and some soldiers fled; is that

 2     correct?

 3        A.   I don't think there were military able soldiers in uniform.

 4        Q.   Very well.  The Croatian authorities at the border, did they ask

 5     those who were armed to disarm?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   So they didn't allow people who were carrying weapons to enter

 8     Croatia?

 9        A.   That's correct.

10        Q.   In fact, they first had to disarm and then they let them in?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you very much.  There are some questions about the

13     territory, or perhaps I should allow Mr. Praljak to address this issue.

14     It's a military issue, and I would like to ask the Chamber to allow

15     Mr. Praljak to ask the witness a few questions about the military

16     situation?

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, if it concerns military

18     issues.

19             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20     On the whole these are military issues.  Unfortunately, I asked for a map

21     of Bosnia-Herzegovina but we won't have time, but could the witness be

22     provided with a piece of paper and then we will draw it.  I would just

23     like to clarify certain issues.  For example, where the territory of

24     Posavina is actually located in Bosnia-Herzegovina, which six brigades

25     were in the part facing Croatia.

Page 4782

 1                           Cross-examination by Accused Praljak:

 2             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]  Could you please give the

 3     witness a sheet of paper and, Witness, could you explain for the benefit

 4     of the Chamber --

 5             MS. WEST:  I am sorry for my interruption, but we do have a map

 6     available on sanction and General Praljak could use it.  On e-court,

 7     excuse me.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is the number so that we

 9     can pull it up on the screen?

10             MS. WEST:  P 09276.  It will just take a moment to get on the

11     screen.  And that's map 3.

12             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK:  [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Could the witness be provide with a marker, please.  Please,

14     could you first mark the areas or the area where the six HVO brigades,

15     were the 101st, 102nd, 103rd, 104th, the 105th and the 106th Brigade.

16     Could we have a clear copy of the map?

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have a map on the screen,

18     Witness, and you can use this marker to mark the map.  You can use the

19     marker on the screen.  The equipment is very good here.

20             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK:  [Interpretation]  Could we have the

21     previous map, a clear or clean version of the map, the previous map,

22     number 3.  We had it on the screen a moment ago.  There was a different

23     version, a clean version of this map before.  That's the one.

24        Q.   Witness, could you please show the area defended, the area facing

25     Croatia so I'm talking about Posavina and the six brigades.  It doesn't

Page 4783

 1     have to be precise, but could you just mark the area?

 2        A.   If we are talking about the time -- or, rather, the time-period

 3     after November 1992 when the brigades were located there in these places,

 4     municipalities that fell, well, then the situation would be as follows:

 5     Odzak fell --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the accused, please.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the fall.  So around the

 8     municipality of Derventa, that's where the line would go, then this part

 9     near Modrica, this just above Gradacac, and the line would continue in

10     this way, Brcko would remain to the right.  It's not precisely drawn on

11     the map, but this is what it would like look like more or less.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the accused, please.

13             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK:  [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Were there six HVO brigades in that area as you said?

15        A.   Yes, in this area there were six HVO brigades.

16        Q.   Thank you very much.  The Serbs had a corridor, and on the other

17     side of the corridor there was Tuzla and the 115th HVO Brigade and the

18     107th HVO Brigade.  Could you mark that, too, in a rough manner.  It

19     doesn't have to be precise on the map.

20        A.   So this is what it would look like more or less.

21        Q.   So it was a narrow corridor, and the Serbian forces tried to

22     enlarge the corridor as it was important, it was a corridor in the

23     vicinity of Banja Luka; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And my last question, since no one asked you whether you knew I

Page 4784

 1     was there or not, was it a bloody war, a bloody conflict?  Were there

 2     many casualty, many wounded, many dead?  Were there huge losses among HVO

 3     fighters, suffered by HVO fighters?

 4        A.   From the beginning to the end of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina --

 5     from the end -- from the beginning to the end of the war in

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina I was there, but I have to admit that the situation

 7     was the worst in Bosanska Posavina.  If you have a look at the territory

 8     from east, from west, from all directions it's possible from tanks to

 9     pass through.  Often one would say we had everything, we experienced

10     everything, but we didn't have parachutists attacking us, but we

11     experienced everything else, tank attacks, plane attacks, and so on and

12     so forth.  It was terrible here.  It's a small area and there were a lot

13     of people who were killed, a lot of wounded.  My unit was in Derventa.

14     And if we have a look at the map, not at any point in time did I launch

15     an attack.  I was on the defensive all the time.  The troops withdrew all

16     the time in this direction.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the accused, please.

18             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK:  [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Is it true that only your brigade --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the accused's

21     question.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 103rd HVO Brigade had over 400

23     members who were killed, and that also concerns the 101st Brigade.

24             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK:  [Interpretation]

25        Q.   What was the difference when it came to equipment?  What did you

Page 4785

 1     use to defend yourselves and against what did you have to defend

 2     yourselves?

 3        A.   I don't know.  Perhaps when the time comes, when I get over all

 4     of it, perhaps I'll write something about this.  But the biggest chapter

 5     will have to do with the lack of ammunition, ammunition for light weapons

 6     and also for heavy weapons.

 7             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK:  [Interpretation] I'd like to thank the

 8     Judges, the Prosecution, and the witness.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would you like us to give the

10     document an IC number?

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned IC

12     number 917.  Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Ms. Alaburic, will

14     you conclude?

15             MS. ALABURIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, good day, good day

16     to everyone in the courtroom.

17                           Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

18        Q.   Mr. Buljan, good day to you too.  I will have a few very brief

19     questions.  I think that --

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I can see that you have a lot

21     of documents.  Have others given you some time?

22             MS. ALABURIC:  [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  I don't think

23     I'll need a lot of time.  I think that we'll conclude in 15 minutes time.

24     It all depends on the witness's answers.  But we can now distribute the

25     documents that we have.  While doing this, and perhaps the usher could

Page 4786

 1     hand the documents out.  We weren't sure whether we would have time to

 2     commence in the course of this hearing, that's why we haven't handed them

 3     out already.

 4        Q.   Mr. Buljan, this is also an explanation for the Trial Chamber.  I

 5     would like to show you a document indicating the number of Muslims in

 6     your brigade.  Therefore, could you please shed some light on that,

 7     confirm or correct in as far as there are any corrections that need

 8     making.  Then I would like to ask you a couple of questions with today's

 9     evidence, especially as it related to assistant commanders of brigades

10     and operations areas.  Security assistants, health assistants, morale

11     assistants.  I will be showing you a number of documents in relation to

12     that as well.  I don't necessarily think you said anything that needs

13     correcting, but I think it might be helpful for the Trial Chamber to get

14     more of an insight into the who the brigade commanders were, how they

15     were appointed, and the way the whole thing was organised.  Therefore, if

16     there's anything you can tell us about that, our conversation might prove

17     to be a little lengthier than I first thought.

18             You have a set of documents before you, sir, they are in

19     arithmetic order.  This is not necessarily the order which I will be

20     following.  I may decide to skip the occasional document, depending on

21     what you tell us.

22             The first document that I want you to look at is D 3355 -- P.

23     It's Prosecution document.  P 3355.  This is a report on the work of the

24     Defence Department relating to the period between January and June 1993,

25     page 11 of the Croatian.  The English reference, I'm giving the figure in

Page 4787

 1     the upper right corner, 9094.

 2        Q.   Have you got the document, sir?  This is something about Derventa

 3     Brigade, the 103 Brigade, which at the time the report was produced which

 4     was at the -- early in July 1993 received some men, 161 military

 5     conscripts, 59 of whom were Croats.  Or rather, 539 of whom were Croats.

 6     A total of 861 men, 8-6-1 military conscripts, 539 Croats, that is the

 7     breakdown, 308 Muslims, and 14 Serbs.

 8             Based on your recollection, Mr. Buljan, would that tally with

 9     your information concerning the ethnic structure of the Derventa Brigade

10     in mid-1993?

11        A.   I think it does roughly.  I'm not going into the nitty-gritty,

12     but that would be it roughly speaking.

13        Q.   The next sentence is particularly interesting.  It might be of

14     interest to the Chamber because they hear about the existence of six

15     brigades in Bosanski Posavina and a lot of other brigades throughout

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17             Therefore, can you please comment on the following sentence, it

18     reads:

19             "This -- the required strength in manpower is 3.096 conscripts."

20             That's what it says.  Mr. Buljan, does that not mean that in

21     terms of its establishment, the brigade was supposed to have 3.096 men,

22     soldiers, but in actual fact all it had at the time was 861 men?

23        A.   It is quite obvious that the establishment-wise the brigade like

24     this needed 3.096 conscripts or men, all they had was the figure you

25     specified.

Page 4788

 1        Q.   So when we talk about an HVO brigade in these terms, it doesn't

 2     necessarily always mean that the actual number of men reflected the one

 3     envisaged in a brigade's establishment; right?

 4        A.   If there's a rule to be deduced from all of this, then the rule

 5     would be that none of the HVO brigades were up to their full manning

 6     levels.  The manning levels that they were supposed to have

 7     establishment-wise.

 8        Q.   Thank you very much for this clarification.  And now several

 9     questions about the assistant commanders of these brigades.  You told us

10     that the commanders of brigades and operations areas have certain

11     assistants that helped them with certain work areas, morale, health,

12     security, that sort of thing; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Can you now please tell us, if you know, how this was regulated,

15     who had the right to appoint these men?  Who had the right to dismiss

16     them, these assistant brigade commanders and assistant commanders of

17     operation zones?

18        A.   I don't think I can be very specific about the procedure itself,

19     how these men were appointed, but I can tell you how I was appointed to

20     the position of assistant commander of IPD.

21        Q.   This is what I propose:  Let's look at the regulations first and

22     then we'll see whether that was how it worked in practice in your

23     brigade.  I do wish to point out any differences to the Chamber between a

24     de jure situation and a de facto situation.  Can you please look at

25     2D 567.

Page 4789

 1             This is a decision of internal structure of the Defence

 2     Department and the date is October 1992.  Can you please look at item D.

 3     We'll be dwelling on the morale because you probably happen to know more

 4     about that than anything else.  Item D sub-item (6) can you please look

 5     at paragraph 2, I'm about to read it out to you:

 6                 "Assistant commanders of morale of the south-east Herzegovina

 7     operations area of the north-west Herzegovina operations area of the

 8     central Bosnia operations area and the Bosnian Posavina operations area,

 9     assistant commander for morale of the Bruno Busic independent regiment,

10     assistant commanders for morale of the special purpose unit, and

11     assistant brigade commanders for morale are appointed by the head of the

12     Defence Department at the proposal of assistant head for morale."

13             Mr. Buljan, did you know that this was the procedure envisaged by

14     the regulations?

15        A.   When all of this was going on back in 1992, in October, November,

16     possibly September, I was not aware of this procedure, nor indeed was I

17     aware of this document.

18        Q.   Based on your reply I conclude that you found out about this

19     later on, is that not the case, sir?

20        A.   Yes, at any rate, later on.

21        Q.   Now, tell us about how you were appointed to your position as

22     assistant commander for morale?

23        A.   When large tracts of the territory were lost and two-thirds of

24     the command staff were dismissed for various reasons, or were out of

25     action for various reasons, because they were wounded or because they

Page 4790

 1     left, the brigade commander simply told me, As of today, you shall be my

 2     assistant for IPD.  Soon there will be a procedure in progress to obtain

 3     all the right documents for you.  He was loud and clear about my task and

 4     how I should go about coming to grips with my task.

 5        Q.   In your opinion, these assistant commanders for morale --

 6     brigades, morale commanders of brigade -- brigades and operations areas,

 7     are they the part of the Defence Department of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 8        A.   I really can't answer that one.

 9        Q.   All right.  There's another detail that I would like you to

10     explain to the Trial Chamber because I think they might find it extremely

11     helpful in order to come to grips with the question I'm about to ask you.

12     Can you please go to document P 646.  This is a proposal for the work

13     programme of the Defence Department up and until the end of 1992.  If you

14     go to each chapter entitled "Morale," this is page 3, could you look at

15     the second sentence, saying that:

16                 "It is necessary to establish both vertical and horizontal

17     links, coordination, and hierarchy."

18             Mr. Buljan, could you perhaps shed light for our benefit on what

19     the horizontal links might be and what the vertical links might be?

20        A.   I have to say that I've never seen this before.  And I can't shed

21     light on this.  Vertical links, horizontal links, that should be clear

22     enough in itself shouldn't it.

23        Q.   If you find it that clear, can you please share that with us.  I

24     assume it might be helpful for the Chamber to have an explanation on what

25     these horizontal and vertical links might be?

Page 4791

 1        A.   I didn't mean in this specific instance.  I meant quite

 2     generally.  Horizontal and vertical.  I didn't read this carefully and

 3     this wasn't the sort of subject matter that I was dealing with at the

 4     time.  Therefore, I can hardly be expected to provide a reliable answer.

 5        Q.   All right.  I'll show you a diagram.  Perhaps it will help us

 6     along, being that we are trying to find some sort of an answer.  The

 7     diagram is 2D 685.  This is a diagram or a chart of the Morale Sector of

 8     the Herceg-Bosna Defence Department.  This is a Bruno Stojic Defence

 9     document.

10             Can you please have a look.  The document shows certain military

11     units from the battalion level and platoon level to the operation zones,

12     and you can see that there are assistant commanders for morale

13     throughout.  And now with see these links from the operation zone to the

14     assistant head for morale.

15             Can you have a look at the chart, please, and tell us if the

16     chart is consistent with your knowledge on how the Morale Sector was

17     organised?

18        A.   I really can't say anything about this.  I only dealt with this

19     very briefly, and then I moved on to something entirely different.  I was

20     also physically distant from where all of this was going on, so with all

21     due respect, I cannot contribute anything meaningful to this discussion.

22             MS. ALABURIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, given the nature of

23     the witness's answers in this respect I have no further question Norris

24     witness and, Mr. Buljan, I thank you for your answers.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.

Page 4792

 1             JUDGE MINDUA:  [Interpretation] Witness, I didn't wish to

 2     interrupt Ms. Alaburic when she asked you about the procedure for your

 3     appointment.  As assistant commander for morale, I'm looking at page 68

 4     in the transcript, lines 10 and onwards.  You answered a question.  You

 5     said that the brigade commander one fine day told you, From today on you

 6     shall be assistant for morale.

 7             My question to you is the following:  How did the appointment

 8     take place in practice?  How were brigade commanders appointed and their

 9     assistants, too?  I want to know particularly about your case, your

10     appointment as assistant commander.  I'm not sure if this translates

11     well.  We have a commander or a brigade commander, was he the one making

12     the appointment or was the appointment actually made by a department head

13     or perhaps the president of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when all of this was

15     going on, the situation was an extremely difficult one in the area in

16     which this was happening, and these were difficult times as well.  The

17     war had already been in full swing for a very long time.  The army in a

18     way began to sit on its hands and became onlookers, mere onlookers.

19     Derventa had fallen and most of the command staff had been replaced.

20     Given the situation, the commander believed that I could give him a hand

21     in all of this at the time, and he said you shall be my assistant for

22     IPD.  The documents will soon be on their way.  I was now given a mission

23     and was told specifically what I should do, how I should go about my

24     work, and how I should go about reporting whack back to him.  All of this

25     was something that we had to do in our stride.  It wasn't like we were

Page 4793

 1     sitting around in offices using typewriters or anything like that.  We

 2     had to think on our feet and do things as we kept moving along, as simple

 3     as that.

 4             JUDGE MINDUA:  [Interpretation] All right.  So the documents were

 5     soon to be on their way.  And who was to issue these documents to back

 6     your appointment?  Which authority and whose signature would they bear?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't reply right

 8     now.  I didn't analyse that, I didn't look into that, and I didn't mind

 9     that too much.  My job was welfare, and I devoted all of my energy in

10     those years to that particular area.  Therefore, the IPD itself was a

11     passing adventure for me.  Perhaps not an adventure but it only covered

12     for me a brief period of time that I spent working there.  I specified

13     this in my CV.  It's as simple as that.  It was a very brief period.  No

14     more than two months, two and a half months perhaps.  I didn't look much

15     into that to be quite honest.  Therefore, I can't say exactly what the

16     correct procedure would have been.  If I were given a chance to go

17     through the documents I'd probably arrive at some conclusion or other.

18             JUDGE MINDUA:  [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 20 minute break and then the

20     Prosecutor will commence.  Thank you.

21                           --- Recess taken at 5.37 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to the

24     Prosecutor, let us discuss our schedule.  As you know next week we have

25     nothing scheduled for Wednesday because there should be a 7th or an 8th

Page 4794

 1     trial in progress.  However, that slot has been freed up now, so we

 2     believe that if necessary we can plough on from Monday to Thursday.  If

 3     we conclude on Wednesday, then the Thursday will be off.  But we will sit

 4     on Wednesday.  I now give the floor to the OTP.

 5             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6                           Cross-examination by Ms. West:

 7        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  My name is Kim West.  I'm with the Office

 8     of the Prosecution, and I'm just going to ask you some questions at least

 9     until 7.00 this evening.  I think it might be helpful that the first

10     place we go to is the maps that we looked at earlier.

11             MS. WEST:  If I can have P 09276 on e-court, and that's map 3.

12        Q.   Do you see that in front of you?

13        A.   Where is the number, please?

14        Q.   Map 3 is in the bottom left-hand corner.  But do you see map in

15     front of you that says "The Croatian Communities of Herceg-Bosna and

16     Bosanski Posavina 1991"?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, specifically, I understand that you were born at least close

19     to Derventa, which is up in the Posavina, and for the record that's the

20     area in the north eastern section of Bosnia.  Do you see that on the map,

21     it's coloured in blue?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Derventa is not a part of the Community of

24     Herceg-Bosna, is it?

25        A.   This map reflects the situation in 1991.  At the time Derventa

Page 4795

 1     had the same status as all the other municipalities in Bosanska Posavina.

 2        Q.   And so my question at least during the period of time in 1991,

 3     Derventa, would you agree with me, is not part of the Herceg-Bosna

 4     community?

 5        A.   I don't know exactly whether the division was like this in 1991.

 6     Back in 1991 Bosnia-Herzegovina did not have the blue coloured areas.

 7        Q.   All right.  Well, let me remind you of the question that Judge

 8     Antonetti asked you earlier today, and he asked you:  When you, in 1992,

 9     were fighting with the HVO, what were you defending.  And do you remember

10     your answer?

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Against the Serbs.  There is

12     obviously an error, an interpretation error.  They were fighting with the

13     HVO, but in French there was an interpretation problem.  Can you please

14     restate your question, madam, in order to clarify this whole matter.

15             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16        Q.   My question, sir, was in 1992 when you were fighting for the HVO,

17     what were you defending?

18             MS. NOZICA:  [Interpretation] My apologies.  I do apologise to

19     the learned friend.  The interpretation that we are receiving and the

20     witness is my friend is asking in 1991.  The witness was, in fact, not

21     speaking about 1991.  Not at all.  The transcript reflects 1992.  Now, we

22     are not entirely clear as to what my learned friend is asking about, 1991

23     or 1992, because back in 1991 there was nothing that the witness

24     mentioned, and I think that is why the witness now nonplussed.

25             MS. WEST:  Thank you, counsel.

Page 4796

 1        Q.   So my question regards 1992.  I understand that you started in

 2     the HVO in 1992.  So in 1992, what were you defending?

 3        A.   As you said, I'm a native of Derventa municipality.  Derventa had

 4     a total of 52 villages.  There was the town, too, Derventa itself.  The

 5     villages were mixed, some were Serb and some were Croat.  At this time

 6     the situation that arose was this:  The Serbs would attack the Croats in

 7     Derventa municipality in order to take their positions.  This happened on

 8     the 8th of April, 1992, where I lived.  From that moment on, members of

 9     the 103rd Derventa Brigade and the HVO never took another step forward

10     into anyone else's village, area, or town.  We just kept defending our

11     own area in which we were living at the time.

12        Q.   Thank you, and you just indicated that the Serbs were

13     attacking --

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There is a problem because the

15     English translation reads:  "... members of the 103rd Derventa Brigade

16     and the HVO."  Is this the HVO or is this the members of the 103rd

17     Derventa Brigade and the HVO, what exactly did you say, Witness?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said those were members of the

19     103rd Derventa Brigade of the HVO, or the HVO.  So it would be 103rd,

20     that was its name, it was part of that.

21             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   And, Mr. Witness, your enemy was the Serbs; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MS. WEST:  If we can turn to map 7, map 7 of this same exhibit,

25     09276.

Page 4797

 1        Q.   Mr. Buljan, do you see that in front of you?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And this is a map showing the Serb autonomous areas or the areas

 4     in which the Serbs believed to be their own.  Would you agree with me

 5     that Derventa is within the Serb -- an area in which the Serbs believe to

 6     be theirs?

 7        A.   I don't know.  According to the 1991 census, Derventa had about

 8     22.000 Serb, about 21.000 Croats, 98 Croats less than the Serbs, and

 9     about 7.000 or 8.000 Bosniaks or perhaps slightly more.  This map, the

10     way it looks with the area marked in green, in terms of the Serbs not

11     being interested in the area or that indeed it really was like this, that

12     this was the physical reality, if that had been the case, I'm sure the

13     clashes would never have erupted in Derventa itself.

14        Q.   And Mr. Buljan, you would agree with me that the Serbs were

15     interested in your area and that's why they were your enemy?

16        A.   Yes, I can agree with that.

17        Q.   Would you also agree in looking at this map, it appears that the

18     Serbs did not -- did not want a substantial portion of Herceg-Bosna as

19     their own?  A substantial portion of Herceg-Bosna?

20        A.   I don't know if that was the case or not.  If they wanted that or

21     not.  It was a long war and a war of attrition, it lasted from 1992 until

22     the end of 1995.

23        Q.   And, Mr. Witness, if you can go to the first binder.  The first

24     Prosecution binder.  And take a look at P 09551.  And the B/C/S is in the

25     back, but before we start speaking about that document let me just ask

Page 4798

 1     you a few questions.  There you go.

 2             Now, just to go over your background.  Up until April of 1995 you

 3     were the head of welfare for Posavina; correct?

 4        A.   That's right.

 5        Q.   But then in April of 1995 your job changed, and you became the

 6     head of the HR H-B administration of welfare within the Ministry of

 7     Defence; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Did you physically move to Mostar when you were appointed to that

10     position?

11        A.   In 1995 the road was not exactly open for normal traffic yet.  If

12     one wanted to get from Moradze [phoen] to Mostar across

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina, one needed to make a detour via the Republic of

14     Croatia the long way around passing through Biljovar-Zagreb [phoen] and

15     so on and so forth.  I was on my own, so it was only logical for me to

16     move, yes.

17        Q.   So the answer to that is yes; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And you've spoken briefly about the fact that when you arrived in

20     this position, you consolidated the data that had been taken in by the

21     welfare departments and you created various reports; is that correct?

22        A.   There wasn't too much consolidation going on.  I think I just

23     hurried certain processes along in order to get the implementation off

24     the ground as quickly as possible in order to reach lasting solutions in

25     order to help invalids and casualties of the homeland war.

Page 4799

 1        Q.   All right.  But in this position as now the head of welfare for

 2     the whole republic, you had access to data that was beyond the Posavina;

 3     is that right?

 4        A.   Yes, that's right.

 5        Q.   So if you look at P 09551, and we are going to look at page 6 of

 6     the English, and for you it's page 5 in the B/C/S, and it's the red tab

 7     that you see on top.  I'm just going to read part of this and then ask

 8     you a question.  This document talks about the activities of the welfare

 9     department during the period of time from July to December of 1993 when

10     you were the head of the republic's department.  And it says that:

11             "Among other things, the following activities were carried out,"

12     and we are talking about the welfare department, "coordination and

13     control of the welfare departments, the military districts, to who whom

14     professional assistance was also provided, oversight of the course of

15     treatment and medical rehabilitation of wounded members and hospitals,

16     sanatoria and rehabilitation centres, analysis of the results of

17     diagnostic procedures related to the type, category, and grade of

18     physical disability of invalids of the homeland war, preparation of

19     drafts, legal proposals, projects and programs related to solving the

20     entire welfare problems of the sufferers, cooperation with institutions

21     and other organisations in the interest of solving those problems, and

22     ensuring of financial means for the realisation of one off and long term

23     rights of the sufferers, and determining the priority order.  And keeping

24     of unique computerised records for all killed, missing, imprisoned,

25     wounded, and sick members of the HVO and members of their families.

Page 4800

 1             "Cooperation with emigres, hospitals from abroad, charity

 2     organisations, societies and institutions in regard with the assistance

 3     to the wounded and killed members of their families and supervision of

 4     managing graves and graveyards where the killed members of the HVO were

 5     buried."

 6             Mr. Buljan, would you agree with me -- or, rather, is this list

 7     that I just read out consistent with what you were responsible for as the

 8     head of the welfare department for the republic?

 9        A.   Yes.  More or less, yes.

10        Q.   And specifically I'm going to focus your attention on the

11     language here having to do with computers.  It says "... keeping of

12     unique computerised records for all killed, missing, imprisoned, wounded

13     and sick members of the HVO and their families."

14             This computer system of which it speaks, was that something that

15     you worked with when you became head of the welfare department in April

16     of 1995?

17        A.   Yes, we complemented these lists and each war disabled person who

18     had disability had to go to a second level commission.  He had to have a

19     written decision and certification of his invalidity.  And this is a list

20     that was done then.  I was engaged in this and -- and this was -- this is

21     continuing to this day to establish whether somebody was indeed a member

22     and whether he was indeed a wounded in the way he was.  The law defines

23     this and the times such as they are.  Sometimes we have documents that

24     are not complete and that is why some of those documents are being

25     revised and activities are ongoing to complement these lists if necessary

Page 4801

 1     and amend them.

 2        Q.   And these lists that were on the computer, would you agree with

 3     me that they would include lists of HVO soldiers in say Mostar and Stolac

 4     in those areas within the Herceg-Bosna community?

 5        A.   There's no reason for them not to be.

 6        Q.   Was the computer system unable to separate those HVO soldiers who

 7     were Muslim from those HVO soldiers who were Croats in?

 8        A.   No, the computer did not have such a programme to indicate that,

 9     but records were simply kept by the names, the first and last name, their

10     registration number, when they were killed, when they were detained, and

11     things like that.

12        Q.   And so you and your department made determinations as to which

13     soldiers were Croat and which soldiers were Muslims based on names; is

14     that right?

15        A.   I can't say that it is possible to determine in each and every

16     case, but in principle when you read out a name, one can assume what the

17     ethnicity is, but it need not necessarily be so each time.

18             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Ms. West, I'm sorry, you combined up two

19     questions.  One was whether at all they made a distinction between

20     Muslims and Croats.  I don't think that was said before.  And then you

21     said, on what basis.  So I think the foundation was missing for your

22     question.

23             MS. WEST:  Thank you.  I'll go back and rephrase the question.

24        Q.   Mr. Buljan, on direct examination you spoke about your own

25     brigade, the 103rd in Derventa.  And in that brigade you actually showed

Page 4802

 1     us a record, and I think it was 2D 00150, that spoke about and gave

 2     figures of how many Croats were in that brigade and others and how many

 3     Muslims were in that brigade and others.

 4             Do you have any understanding as to how 2D 00150 was made?  It's

 5     not going to be in your file.  It was an exhibit that you looked at

 6     during your direct testimony.  There you go.

 7        A.   First of all, these data about the 101st to the 106th Brigade, I

 8     must say that they more or less correspond to my knowledge about it.

 9     Now, whether it's exactly 31.45, but 28 is certainly a good

10     approximation.  This is regarding these records.

11             As for the person who signed this, then that person could sign

12     it, and I consider this document to be correct.

13        Q.   Thank you.  We'll of move on.  In 1995, April of 1995, when you

14     became the head of the welfare department for the republic, you've

15     indicated that you became familiar with information that was beyond the

16     Posavina.  So I'd like to talk about some of the areas that are outside

17     the Posavina.  So, for example, the first area I would like to talk about

18     is -- or the first brigade I would like to talk about is the 3rd Brigade.

19             Can you look at P 10797.

20             MS. NOZICA:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, the question hasn't

21     been put to the witness, but I do wish to object for the record.  This

22     again is a new document, and the Defence will object every time.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I know that, very well, but the

24     Chamber by a majority vote has decided to allow the Prosecutor to touch

25     upon subjects that were not covered in the examination-in-chief.  This is

Page 4803

 1     not my opinion, but the majority opinion.  We will stop there, that's

 2     clear.  A decision has been rendered.  That's it.

 3             MS. ALABURIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, apologise, I also

 4     wish for the record to say that the Defence for General Petkovic joins

 5     Mr. Stojic's Defence objection, and I think that we should be guided by

 6     the decision of this trial from November, and I think that should apply

 7     to each new document, and we will be objecting each time because this is

 8     contrary to the decision of the Trial Chamber from November 2002.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Prosecutor, if a document

10     was not on the 65 ter list, if you use it, it's only for the purpose of

11     the credibility of the witness.  Have you understood my remark?

12             MS. WEST:  I do understand your remark and I understand the

13     ongoing discussion on this particular issue.  It's our position, as has

14     already been repeated, that we don't believe it needs to be on the 65 ter

15     list.  At this point the document that I'm going to be using not only

16     goes to the credibility of the witness but also goes to the direct

17     opposition of what he has testified in front of the Chamber.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Continue, please.

19             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Sir, in front of you, 10797, are payroll records dated January

21     1994 for the 3rd Brigade.  And these are soldiers in the 3rd Brigade that

22     served various times from 1991 and 1994.  I know that you've -- is it

23     true that you've never seen these documents before?

24        A.   No, I've never seen them before.

25        Q.   Now, for the purposes of this question, I'm going to tell you

Page 4804

 1     that there's 1.795 soldiers listed.  And I'm also going to tell you that

 2     it appears that there are 26 soldiers who appear to have Muslim names.

 3     Now, just assuming for the purpose of this question that that number 26

 4     is correct, would you agree that the percentage of Muslims in the 3rd

 5     Brigade is a much less percentage than the Muslims in the Posavina

 6     brigades?

 7             MS. ALABURIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your

 8     permission, I would like to object.  The document which my learned friend

 9     has just shown to the witness is dated the 20th of January, 1994.  The

10     witness spoke about documents which were prepared before the 30th of

11     June, 1993.  Everyone in this courtroom knows that on the 30th of June

12     there was a drastic change in relationship between the Croats and Muslims

13     in the territory of Herceg-Bosna, so I think my learned friend is now

14     trying to compare periods, time periods which are completely

15     incomparable.  Thank you.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have understood and I'll

18     explain to the Prosecutor who I'm sure has understood.  Madam Prosecutor,

19     when the Defence showed documents about the composition of the 103rd

20     Brigade, and there were a large number of Muslims, and the document

21     you're showing is from 1994.  In the mean time an event took place in the

22     month of June, which could explain the reduction of the number of

23     effectives, we agree don't we?  So please put your question within that

24     framework.

25             Yes, madam.

Page 4805

 1             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, very

 2     briefly, I think that there must be some confusion.  The witness spoke

 3     about the 103rd Brigade, and the -- Madam Prosecutor has asked about the

 4     3rd Brigade.  These are two different brigades in two different areas.

 5     Secondly, could my learned friend tell us - because I can't see from this

 6     document - which is the source and what is the author of this document,

 7     and how does she come to the conclusion that it is a payroll list?

 8     Because I can see that -- can't see that.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Madam Prosecutor.  The

10     witness comes from the 103rd Brigade, not the 3rd Brigade.  I thought of

11     this, but I thought maybe it was a slip of the tongue, that she meant

12     103rd.  But we have to see, if we are talking about the 3rd Brigade it

13     has nothing to do with 103rd Brigade.  We must agree on that.

14             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.  It's not a slip of the

15     tongue.  I understand that this is the 3rd Brigade in Mostar, but the

16     witness has already testified that in April of 1995 he became the head of

17     the welfare department for the republic, and as a result of the

18     computerized system he had access to all those HVO soldiers in all of

19     Herceg-Bosna, which is the reason I'm now asking him about soldiers

20     outside the Posavina.  In addition, I'm aware of the event in Mostar on

21     June 30th, and as Ms. Alaburic has indicated that would make a

22     significant difference in the number of Muslims, and we are going to

23     speak about that.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So you wish to put

25     a question about the 3rd Brigade in Mostar.

Page 4806

 1             MS. NOZICA:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, before that question

 2     is posed, I wish to draw attention to another detail.  As Madam Alaburic

 3     says, this is the documents of the 28th of January, 1994.  My learned

 4     friend says that the witness in mid-1995 took over this position and

 5     could have insight into these documents.  But we are talking about

 6     different periods.  This is a year and a half before.  There must -- a

 7     basis must be established.  When you joined that office in 1995, did you

 8     see all the data from the past or from that moment on.

 9             MS. WEST:  I think --

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue.

11             MS. WEST:  [Previous translation continues]... explain that.  The

12     witness, and the record will reveal itself, spoke about joining the

13     welfare department for the republic in April of 1995.  And his first job

14     there was consolidating data from 1992 onwards, so this person would have

15     the ability to talk about earlier HVO soldiers.  But it -- may I

16     continue, Mr. President?

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please continue.  We'll

18     see.

19             MS. WEST:

20        Q.   Mr. Buljan, you've heard this discussion, are you aware of an

21     event on June 30th, 1993, in Mostar in which the ABiH attacked the

22     northern barracks in Mostar?  Are you aware of that event?

23        A.   I heard about this.  At the time I was at the front in Posavina.

24     As for this list, I never told Their Honours that I had all the data

25     about all members of the HVO.  All I'm saying is about the killed, war

Page 4807

 1     disabled, and families of the killed and missing members of the HVO.  I

 2     never had a single list of members of the HVO who were not killed or had

 3     any disability.  So this is a list of all HVO members.  I never had any

 4     such list in my possession, before or later in my database.

 5        Q.   Mr. Buljan, if you can go to P 07433.  I believe it's in the same

 6     binder.

 7             MS. ALABURIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wish to draw

 8     attention that in the e-court, there's an indication that it was not

 9     adopted.  It was tendered by the Prosecution, but it was not adopted as a

10     document.  As an exhibit.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you repeat the number of the

12     document, please?

13             MS. WEST:

14        Q.   07433.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask the court

16     officer why this document was not admitted.  There are thousands of

17     documents, and I can't respond straightaway.  Please continue.

18             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Mr. Buljan, you have that in front of you?  This is the annual

20     analysis of the performance of the Mostar defence administration in 1993.

21     And if we go to the introduction which is page 3 of English, it's also

22     page 3 of the B/C/S.  This memo talks about the 1993 analysis or review

23     of the defence administration, and it talks about those offices under it,

24     the work that they did, the difficulties that they encountered, and then

25     what sort of solutions they could have to overcome them.

Page 4808

 1             But I would like you to go in this to page 6 of the B/C/S, and

 2     that's page 5 of the English.  And that page is entitled:  "Overview of

 3     Conscripts Engaged in Combat in the Mostar Municipality and Their

 4     Percentage in Relation to the Number of Military Conscripts VO in

 5     Military Records."  Do you see that in front of you?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   So in this chart it starts with the number of Croat inhabitants,

 8     according to the 1991 census, and then it goes on to talk about the

 9     conscripts, and it gives different figures with the conscripts.  And then

10     finally towards the bottom it goes to the actual brigades.  Sir, I'm

11     going to have you look at one more page before I ask you a question

12     because I think it will make more sense.  If you could go to page 14 of

13     the B/C/S and that's page 10 of the English.  And again, this is the same

14     sort of chart.  However this just has to do with Citluk.  It says the

15     overview of conscripts engaged in combat in Citluk municipality.  And

16     again -- and we have a repeat, it's the number of Croat -- Croat

17     inhabitants, according to the census, and then we have a breakdown from

18     that figure to the number of conscripts.

19             For the purposes of this question, this document goes on and

20     there are further overviews for Siroki Brijeg and Kludo [phoen] and

21     Ljubuski.  I mean, to each one of them it's the same type of overview.

22     Would you agree with me that looking at the overview, it does not account

23     for Muslim soldiers; like, for example, the Mostar municipality or the

24     Citluk municipality?

25        A.   Yes, from this overview one can see that.  I haven't seen this

Page 4809

 1     list before.  It comes from a period when I wasn't there.  I didn't need

 2     to see it afterwards either, but when I read it I see that the analysis

 3     was done in this way as is written in the document.

 4        Q.   Sir, even though you've not seen this before, would you agree

 5     with me that the absence of Muslim numbers might be because there's no

 6     appreciable number of Muslim HVO soldiers in those units?

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

 8             MR. KOVACIC:  I have a serious objection, and I wouldn't

 9     otherwise object.  But if the Prosecution is trying to impose that for

10     example in Citluk there are no Muslim soldiers in HVO, then before that

11     there should be a question about national structure in municipality of

12     Citluk.  There cannot be Muslim, that's the problem.  It's the same as

13     they would ask whether there were Serbs in, I don't know, north pole.

14     There are none.  So they cannot participate.  Or Greeks in Citluk.

15     Michael told me that there are no Greeks in Citluk.  So first that should

16     be established.  If there are no Muslim inhabitants, they cannot be

17     represented in HVO.  Obviously.  This is misleading, this is trick.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Prosecutor, before asking

19     the question you had to ask the witness about the composition of the

20     population in Citluk.  You could have said there were so many Muslims, so

21     many Croats, and how come there were no Muslim soldiers there.

22             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I know that the Chamber has heard

23     demographic information on all these municipality which is the reason I

24     didn't go into it with all this particular witness, but I think that

25     since this witness has indicated that he has not looked at this document

Page 4810

 1     I'll move on from here.

 2        Q.   Mr. Witness -- or Mr. Buljan, you've spoken extensively about the

 3     situation in the Posavina, and is it fair to say that throughout the war

 4     the relationships between Muslims and Croats in the Posavina was very

 5     different than the relationship between Muslims and Croats in

 6     Herceg-Bosna or specifically Mostar in the latter half of 1993?

 7        A.   We could say that it was different.  That in a certain sense it

 8     was different.

 9        Q.   And can you describe for the Trial Chamber why it was different?

10     Why do you think it was different?

11        A.   In Posavina, I've already told you what sort of events unfolded.

12     I've told you about when all these events occurred.  As far as Mostar

13     itself is concerned, I have to repeat that throughout that entire period

14     I was present in Bosanska Posavina.  I wasn't in Mostar.  So reference

15     was made to that incident that occurred in mid-1993.  So it's as of that

16     time that certain situations were somewhat different in comparison to the

17     situation in Posavina.

18        Q.   Right.  And so my question is you say that it was different, and

19     I understand that you were in the Posavina and not in, for example,

20     Mostar, but as a person who worked in the HVO, even in Posavina in 1993,

21     didn't you have a sense of what was going on in Mostar?

22        A.   Well, to a certain extent.  Mostar wasn't my main concern.  I

23     didn't have any -- anything particular to analyse with respect to Mostar.

24     At the time there was a problem throughout the territory of

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  In Bosanska Posavina there was a war against the

Page 4811

 1     Serbs.  In other areas there was a war against the Bosniaks.  In other

 2     areas there were Bosniaks fighting Bosniaks.  The situation was chaotic.

 3     Wherever one found oneself, all one tried to do was to keep as much

 4     territory as possible at the time and to sustain minimum losses.

 5        Q.   And you will agree with me then that you knew in Mostar, at least

 6     in the latter half of 1993, the Croats were fighting the Muslims?

 7        A.   I heard that there were such problems down there.  I can't agree

 8     with you that I knew about that, that it happened in one way or another.

 9     It was quite simply a huge area and information wasn't relayed

10     adequately.  I was involved in all my work, I was performing all the

11     duties that I had to perform.  I didn't follow the situation you are

12     referring to, so I couldn't fully answer your question.  Anything else I

13     might say would just amount to speculation.

14        Q.   Well, forgive me if we push a little bit harder on this.  You

15     have already testified that you knew the situation between the Muslims

16     and the Croats was different in Mostar than it was in Posavina.  Is that

17     difference because the Muslims and the Croats were fighting each other

18     whereas in the Posavina the Muslims and the Croats were cooperating with

19     each other?

20        A.   Well, that was probably the case.  In Posavina the situation was

21     such as it was.  I have described it.  And in Mostar, as of the time of

22     that incident, there was a certain amount of tension.  So in a certain

23     sense, that would be the reason for the differences between the situation

24     in Posavina and Mostar.  But at the time, as I have said, Mostar wasn't a

25     particular concern of mine.  I didn't analyse it.  Mostar is of a 1.000

Page 4812

 1     kilometres away from where I was.  That was the case at the time.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Buljan, but let's continue to talk about that

 3     tension, and you recognise that you understood there were some events

 4     going on in Mostar in June of 1993, that you at least knew a bit about.

 5             Sir, if you can go to P 02223.  It's in the binder in front of

 6     you.  This is a command post -- well, it's a report from Ljubuski, and

 7     Ljubuski is one of the areas that you spoke about in your direct.  It's a

 8     safety report, and I'll just read the beginning.

 9             "The safety situation of the territory covered by the 4th Brigade

10     HVO is a complex regarding the events and conflicts that have been taking

11     place with the Muslim and BiH Army.  In the area of Ljubuski

12     municipality, there are about 5.5 percentage inhabitants of the Muslim

13     nationality, and an additional number of 1.000 Muslim refugees.  At the

14     territory of Citluk municipality, there's 1.5 per cent Muslims and about

15     250 refugees.  The brigade includes 4.5 Muslim soldiers.  Appraising a

16     safety situation, and aggravated relations with the BiH Army at the

17     territory of Mostar municipality, and considering the mentioned 4.5

18     soldiers, which are with the weapons, military equipment, uniforms, and

19     HVO ID cards, most likely some of them will try to defend the interests

20     of Muslim people.  According to received information, some groups and --"

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please slow down for the sake of

22     the interpreters, thank you.

23             MS. WEST:  My apologies.

24             "According to received information, some groups and individuals

25     have entered the rather part of Mostar towards west Herzegovina who will

Page 4813

 1     try to include an extreme individual -- extreme individuals from the

 2     municipality, Citluk and Ljubuski, to their formations.  With this they

 3     will attempt to interrupt bringing of fresh manpower to Mostar town.

 4             "In the past period of war, we did not have any problems with

 5     Muslim people or single persons in the area of said three municipalities.

 6     Even they were frightened in the past time because they remained

 7     minority.  Especially after the clashes in Jablanica and Konjac, when

 8     plenty BiH Army members were brought to the Ljubuski prison.  By brigade

 9     command, I suggested disarmament of the Muslim soldiers through total

10     returning of soldiers after coming from the frontline."

11             MS. NOZICA:  [Interpretation] I apologise, I stood up before the

12     question was put to the witness on purpose.  I really think that we

13     should have a basis established before the question is put.  I can see

14     what has been read, the question hasn't been put, so there's not a

15     leading question, but we should ask the witness what he knows about

16     Ljubuski and what he knows about this period.  A minute ago, the witness

17     said he knew what happened in June.  This document is from May.  I think

18     a basis should be established to see whether a witness knowing anything

19     about this.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel, allow your colleague

21     to do her work.  That's as important as your work.  And she will respond

22     to the objections when putting questions.  When the Defence rises, I

23     always have the impression that they think that the Prosecution is going

24     to make mistakes.  Well, let's wait to see how the things unfold.  We

25     don't know anything about this in advance.

Page 4814

 1             MS. WEST:

 2        Q.   Mr. Buljan, do you remember on direct testimony talking about the

 3     municipality of Ljubuski?  Do you remember those questions being asked?

 4        A.   I remember having confirmed something in regard of a document.  I

 5     said that at the time those same people performed those duties and that

 6     such a document could be signed.  As far as Ljubuski itself is concerned,

 7     well, perhaps I had once passed through Ljubuski, or perhaps never.

 8        Q.   This document is dated May 7th of 1993, and understanding that

 9     you were not -- you were still in the Posavina at the time but

10     nonetheless you were aware, as you've testified, that there were the

11     differences between the Croats and Muslims relations, there was a

12     difference between that relationship and the similar relationship, the

13     Posavina, had you heard about these aggravated relations between the

14     BiH -- excuse me, between the Muslim and Croat HVO members and Ljubuski?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Sir, can you go to 4901632.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you held a position in

18     the army, or there's a minor paragraph that I'm extremely interested in.

19     It's the last paragraph in the document, where the person who drafted the

20     document who is in charge of the SIS says the following, it's his point

21     of view:

22                 "I think," he says, "that is it is time to take energetic

23     measures, and that concerns the Ministry of Interior in particular,

24     because we are in a war zone and it is difficult for an army to take

25     preventive or repressive measures."

Page 4815

 1             So the person who drafted this document has situated the problem

 2     very well.  He says that the problem with the Muslims, but in his opinion

 3     it's for the Ministry of Interior to concern itself with this problem,

 4     it's not for the army to do that.  So what do you think about this?

 5             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC:  Counsel, Your Honours, I apologise.

 6     There is a mistake in the English translation.  In the Croatian it says

 7     "because we are not in a war zone."  That's what it says in the original

 8     document.  And the contrary is stated, it says "because we are not in a

 9     war zone," and I think that this has given rise to confusion.  In the

10     original it says "not."

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Then we will

12     rephrase this.  On the 7th of May, the person who drafted the document

13     said that he believed that they were not in a war zone, but nevertheless

14     he says that it is for the Ministry of Defence to take certain measures

15     against these Muslims.  It's not for the army to intervene or to take

16     repressive or preventive measures against them.  So what is your opinion

17     of this?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not familiar with

19     this document.  It's the first time I've seen it.  I have never seen it

20     before.  As far as Ljubuski is concerned, I've never analysed that town.

21     The Prosecutor has repeated on two or three times something.  I'm not

22     sure I have the same document in front of me.  Are you talking about the

23     document drafted in Ljubuski on the 7th of May, 1993?

24             MS. ALABURIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave I

25     would like to clarify something.

Page 4816

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I know that you are not

 2     familiar with this document.  The 103rd Brigade, it's not in Ljubuski,

 3     fine, that's not the issue.  What I would like to know, because I'm

 4     approaching this from a different point of view, but at the level of your

 5     brigade could someone have drafted the same kind of document and stated

 6     that it was for the Ministry of Interior to concern itself with such an

 7     issue?  That is what I'm interested in, sir.  To say, well, he is not

 8     familiar with the document and so on and so forth, well, that's

 9     irrelevant.  I'm dealing with this from another angle.  So could someone

10     in your brigade have drafted such a document, such a statement?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could someone have written this and

12     sent it to someone without the commander being aware of the fact; is that

13     what you had in mind?

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, no, I'll abandon that

15     question.  It seems too complex to me.

16             MS. ALABURIC:  [Interpretation] Counsel, Your Honours, I think it

17     would be useful if we could clarify something.

18             JUDGE PRANDLER:  Madam Alaburic, we are approaching 7.00.  In

19     view of our discussion yesterday evening, I dearly feel that it is not a

20     very proper way, to say the least, that in the last half an hour or one

21     hour the Prosecutor was not allowed to -- really to proceed according to

22     her friends.  And I request all of you to be really -- in a way accept

23     those problems which are, of course, connected to all of the witnesses

24     appearances here, but let her continue her work, and then, of course, you

25     will be free to do whatever you wish, you would like to, and to ask any

Page 4817

 1     other questions.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'd like to add something.  The

 3     person who will have liberty to act will just be the person who has

 4     additional questions in respect to Ms. Nozica's questions.  I've given up

 5     the question so don't go back to the issue, Ms. Alaburic.

 6             MS. ALABURIC:  [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, I just wanted

 7     to draw your attention to the following:  I think that your question is

 8     of exceptional importance and it would be good to establish why this SIS

 9     official --

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, because as a rule

11     when I ask questions it's very important, but if the witness doesn't

12     understand my question then I will abandon the question.  I won't insist

13     on putting the question to the witness.

14             MS. ALABURIC:  [Interpretation] But, Your Honours, in the two

15     paragraphs earlier reference is made to what the police has to establish,

16     so your question is quite abstract.  If we can't see that the SIS

17     official has doubts according to which some members of ABiH from the

18     Bregova [phoen] Brigade are hiding in villages in the territory of the

19     municipality of Ljubuski, and he believes that, therefore, the civilian

20     police should involve itself in the affair because Ljubuski is not in a

21     war zone.

22             So I think we are now familiar with all the facts and it might be

23     easier for all the witness to comment on this subject given that he

24     doesn't know the document, he is isn't familiar with the document.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It is now almost

Page 4818

 1     7.00, so we will adjourn now.  The Prosecution has an hour and a half at

 2     its disposal tomorrow.

 3             I would like to invite the Defence, as Judge Prandler rightly

 4     said, I invite the Defence to allow the Prosecution to do its work.  The

 5     Prosecution is doing its work.  We don't know what the Prosecution wants

 6     to demonstrate so allow them to proceed -- those questions that were

 7     different from the questions posed by the Prosecution.  So we will meet

 8     tomorrow at 2.15.  Thank you.

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.

10                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 12th day of

11                           February 2009, at 2.15 p.m.