Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5483

 1                           Monday, 2 March 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.14 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, kindly call the

 6     case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 9             This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic

10     et al.

11             Thank you, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13             Today is Monday, the 2nd of March, 2009.  Good afternoon to

14     Mr. Stojic, Mr. Praljak, and Mr. Pusic.  And good afternoon to all the

15     Defence counsel and all the OTP representatives, as well as all the

16     people assisting us.

17             And Mr. Registrar, you have a few IC numbers for us.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  That's right, Your Honour.

19             Some parties have submitted lists of documents to be tendered

20     through Witness Kvesic, Ante.  The list submitted by 2D shall be given

21     Exhibit IC 00933, and the list submitted by the Prosecution shall be

22     given Exhibit IC 00934.

23             Thank you, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

25             The Trial Chamber is going to issue a short ruling regarding

Page 5484

 1     rules as regards filing of exhibits submitted to witnesses in testimony.

 2             The Trial Chamber noted that lately the parties have filed their

 3     requests for admission through written filings and not through IC lists.

 4     The Trial Chamber recalls that such requests have to comply with the

 5     procedure as per paragraph 32 of the decision on the adoption of

 6     guide-lines for Defence exhibits, of the 24th of April, 2008, and this

 7     cannot be changed with the procedure for filing motions in writing.  So,

 8     in other words, you have to use the IC procedure in order to seek to

 9     admit exhibits.

10             We are going to have a new witness.  He's a protected witness.

11     Mr. Usher, make sure that the blinds are lowered so that the witness can

12     enter the courtroom, and we're going to move to closed session for a few

13     moments.

14                           [Closed session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5485











11 Pages 37485-37490 redacted. Closed session.















Page 5491

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 9             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Witness, let's go back to the beginning of May 1992.  What

11     happened then?  Tell us.

12       A.   I've already said that (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted) But I also had to do all the jobs that my colleagues did, so I had

17     to go to the front-line, and a team came from the Main Medical Corps'

18     headquarters, Dr. Kolak, Bagaric, and Kvesic from Siroki Brijeg, and

19     Dr. Kolak told me that if I wanted to and if there was the opportunity,

20     that I could move to the Main Medical Corps centre in view of the fact

21     that at the time and in that territory there were no doctors who were

22     well versed in preventive medicine.

23        Q.   Witness, when you talk about the front-line and the period that

24     we're talking about - we're now talking about April and May - just for

25     the transcript, can you tell us what was happening at that time, whether

Page 5492

 1     the war had started, whether there were conflicts, and if so, which units

 2     were involved, and which units were you part of, who were they fighting

 3     against, and so on?

 4        A.   They were members of the Croatian Defence Council who, together

 5     with the Muslim armed forces, fought a war against the aggressors;

 6     specifically, the Serb Army and the Yugoslav Army.

 7        Q.   So we heard that you were given this offer of transferring to the

 8     area of preventive medicine to the Main Medical Corps headquarters.  Is

 9     that what happened?

10        A.   Yes.  They called me soon after that, so, yes, that's right.  I

11     was called to go to Tomislavgrad, where I came into contact with the

12     deputy of the head of the Main Medical Corps headquarters, Dr. Salic and

13     Dr. Kolak, since Dr. Bagaric was not at the meeting.  And on that

14     occasion, we looked at what could be done, how to use -- how best to use

15     my knowledge and my experience.

16             And I'd like to repeat that we had very few doctors, as we do

17     today, in the field of preventive medicine, and so I was offered this job

18     because, as an infectologist or specialist in infectious diseases, it was

19     a close area of medicine.  And in the former army where I worked,

20     preventive medicine was considered to be a very important part of the

21     work done.

22        Q.   I think you said epidemiology, you said epidemiology was a very

23     important sector, so when you use these medical terms, could you say them

24     slowly so they could be properly recorded.  So do you accept -- did you

25     accept this offer, and did you, in fact, become a member of the Main

Page 5493

 1     Medical Corps headquarters?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   How?  Tell us in what way?

 4        A.   At the time, my assignments were defined, my tasks and duties

 5     were defined, and among other things it was said that I would be

 6     number-one man in the area of preventive medicine and that it was my

 7     duty, for the area covered by the HZ-HB, to set up teams to educate the

 8     population in the field of preventive medicine and the rules governing

 9     that area, and I'm going to talk about preventive medicine and

10     protection, that field.  And it was also my duty to send regular reports

11     so that my superiors, and I'm using military language there, so that my

12     superiors could be kept abreast of the hygiene, epidemiological

13     situation, both in settled -- in built-up areas and in the army and on

14     the battle-fields.  And because we lacked cadres among the civilian

15     structures, it was up to me to integrate all these functions, so not only

16     to do work for the HVO but to cater to the civilian population as well.

17        Q.   Witness, did you receive a decision of any kind telling you to

18     form this service for preventive medicine, and if so, when, and who

19     signed it?

20        A.   Yes, I did, I received a decision to that effect signed by

21     Dr. Sarac, that is to say, the deputy to our head, to our chief, and that

22     was on the 9th of May, 1992, and in that -- that decision sets out all my

23     tasks and responsibilities, with a final point stating that I should

24     always prioritise and determine what the priorities were.

25        Q.   So when you received this decision on the 9th of May, 1992, as

Page 5494

 1     you said, there was the Main Medical Corps headquarters with its seat in

 2     Tomislavgrad; is that right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Tell me, please, after you received that decision, where did you

 5     set up, where was your headquarters, where was your office?

 6        A.   Pursuant to permission from Dr. Sarac and Dr. Kolak, I went to

 7     Siroki Brijeg, and the reason being was that I knew all my colleagues

 8     there because, as a specialist, I was a well-known doctor in the region,

 9     and I thought that it was easier for me to start working from there, from

10     an environment that I knew, and to set up a team there, because there was

11     nothing.  We had to start from scratch, set up a team from scratch.

12        Q.   When you say you had to start from scratch, as you've just told

13     us, you weren't a specialist in preventive medicine either, but if we

14     look at Herzegovina as a whole, were there enough doctors and staff who,

15     in any way, either as doctors, nurses, or staff of that kind, who knew

16     what was to be done in the field of prevention or was there a

17     deficiencies of cadres there?

18        A.   Yes, there was a deficit of staff, and rationalisation had to be

19     put in place.  I had to rationalise with the men -- with the people

20     available.  And today, for example, in peacetime, there is a deficit in

21     people trained in the preventive health area.  And in the world, public

22     health is a highly respected area, but in primitive environments such as

23     my own, it is considered an area of lesser importance and that there's a

24     negative selection of physicians that are not as highly trained.

25             But let me go back to the period we're discussing.  There weren't

Page 5495

 1     enough people working in that field, and so epidemiology was perhaps the

 2     closest area, and I don't think that at that time you would have found a

 3     better man than myself for the job.

 4        Q.   Witness, you said that your task was to establish teams.  Could

 5     you please tell the Honourable Trial Chamber whether you did set up these

 6     teams, and how and where they existed?

 7        A.   I've already said, I had this integrative function because there

 8     weren't enough trained people, so first of all in Siroki Brijeg I had to

 9     establish that, which was a test for me as to whether I'd be successful

10     in other areas.  Thankfully, I had this idea that a team had to consist

11     of people whose knowledge, dedication, and efforts could prevent the

12     outbreak of infectious diseases, so I set up a team in Siroki Brijeg, and

13     the same kinds of teams were set up elsewhere.

14             I'm going to repeat that, because I think it's very important.

15     The teams had the same composition everywhere.  There was a physician who

16     was head of the team.  Then there was a vet who was in charge of food

17     that was animal or, rather, non-vegetarian food.  Then we also had

18     another person who hopefully had worked in the sanitary inspectorate

19     before that, and then also there'd had to be a driver in the team.  When

20     I set up the team in Siroki Brijeg, I sent reports straight away to

21     Tomislavgrad, to the Main Medical Corps headquarters.

22        Q.   For the transcript, you said that there was a doctor, a

23     physician, who was head of the team, a vet, an agronomist and a driver;

24     right?

25        A.   And somebody who had worked for the sanitary inspectorate before

Page 5496

 1     the war as well.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Allow me one follow-up

 3     question.

 4             We understand that you set up this structure for infectious

 5     diseases, but I have a question.  Back in the former Yugoslavia, if

 6     somebody had a serious disease, would that person be sent to Belgrade, to

 7     Sarajevo, or to Zagreb, or was that person treated on the spot?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, infectious diseases

 9     are a specific matter.  These are contagious diseases.  They can be

10     transferred from one person to another, but then also from an animal to a

11     person.  Then infectious or contagious diseases can also cause an

12     epidemic.  And you also know that there can be a pandemic too.

13             In Mostar, we had a department for infectious diseases, and that

14     is where patients were sent, patients with such diseases.  (redacted)

15     (redacted)-- or,

16     rather, that at that time we sent very, very few patients to Belgrade and

17     Zagreb for further treatment.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's be more specific.  Let us

19     imagine -- but of course there was no risk at all at the time, but let us

20     imagine there was this avian flu in 1992.  Would that person have been

21     treated in Mostar or would you have sent that patient to Belgrade,

22     Sarajevo, or Zagreb?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you're talking about 1992, up

24     until May probably we would have provided treatment in Mostar, and then

25     after May, I don't know exactly what date it was when the roads were cut

Page 5497

 1     off, then we would treat them in Mostar, but we would send more difficult

 2     cases to Sarajevo.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   His Honour asked you about this network, and the network that

 6     you're talking about was a network for preventive medicine; right?

 7        A.   Yes, yes, preventive medicine.  Perhaps you didn't hear me right.

 8     I do apologise.  Because there weren't enough people around, so then I

 9     had people who were dealing with curative medicine before that, and then

10     I transferred them to work with -- work in the field of preventive

11     medicine.  As the English would say, this is variegated medicine.

12        Q.   What was it -- what was it that you said in English, that it was

13     a big difference?

14        A.   Yes, an enormous difference.

15        Q.   You established these teams in order to prevent contagious

16     diseases; right?  You explained why, and how, and what the principle was,

17     and who you had on these teams.  We are done with Siroki Brijeg, so could

18     you tell us briefly where it was that you established these teams further

19     on?

20        A.   Siroki Brijeg was just the first station that we had, an

21     experimental one at that, and then I realised that I would be successful.

22             Then there was a meeting in Capljina that was attended by

23     representatives of municipalities, that is to say, doctors, medical

24     people from Neum, Capljina, Citluk and Ljubusko.  And then in every one

25     of these towns, we established respective teams - I don't have to repeat

Page 5498

 1     it - consisting of the same profile of experts.

 2             Then I went to Grude, where yet again doctors from Grude and

 3     Posusje met, and what was established was a team, again of the same

 4     composition in those towns.

 5             After that, I went to Livno, which is a major centre, where yet

 6     again a team was established with the same composition, that is to say,

 7     for carrying out these functions in the field of preventive medicine.

 8             Then I went to Jablanica, where yet again a team was established.

 9     However, this time for Konjic, Jablanica.  And since there were

10     colleagues there from Central Bosnia, Mr. Djambas, and --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the name.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Teams were set up, so I made up

13     these teams pretty well, and I covered the entire territory.  Perhaps

14     I can also add that this package of measures was introduced in Posavina

15     as well.  However, I was not in charge.

16             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Witness, now that we are discussing all these teams, were

18     civilian and military personnel on these teams, and was their role to

19     contain contagious diseases, both in places where civilians lived or in

20     the civilian sector, if we can put it that way, and in the military

21     sector?

22        A.   Yes.  Yes, I've already said there were very few such people

23     around, and I've already said that contagious diseases did not make a

24     distinction between civilians and military personnel, it is simply human

25     beings that are affected.  So if you prevent contagious diseases in an

Page 5499

 1     area, then you're dealing with the entire population of that area.

 2        Q.   You did not answer my question.  Who were members of this team?

 3        A.   Sorry, I tend to wander off.  They were civilians, for the most

 4     part, persons who worked in civilian structures.  So in that way, in view

 5     of the profile of these people who were trained, who had an education, we

 6     managed to cover the entire territory of that municipality, both the

 7     civilian and military segments.  However, I've already said our function

 8     was an integrative one.

 9        Q.   Tell me, did you establish any other team that was attached to

10     the Main Medical Corps headquarters?  Did you establish that?

11        A.   Yes.  In order for this to work, a professional, educational,

12     instructive body had to be established that had to help those teams at

13     that given point in time.  That is why I established a team attached to

14     the Main Medical Corps headquarters, not to repeat it, a physician, a vet

15     and so on.  It was called a mobile team, a mobile team.  As this is

16     self-explanatory, it is a mobile team and they are supposed to go where

17     their assistance is required.

18        Q.   Please, all of these teams that you established in this area, I'm

19     asking you about 1992, 1993 and, say, April 1994.  Throughout this time,

20     did they cover these areas for which they were in charge?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   What about you and your mobile team; did you go from time to time

23     to these areas where these teams that were in charge of these areas were?

24        A.   Well, yes, that was our task.  We went to see how they worked, to

25     resolve problems, and also every time I went somewhere, that was a good

Page 5500

 1     opportunity to instruct people, to train them.  The domicile teams were

 2     professionally stronger after every one of my visits, and there are

 3     reports to support that.

 4        Q.   As for reports, these teams from the other areas and your team,

 5     your mobile team, who was it that you actually submitted these reports to

 6     about hygienic and epidemiological examinations that you carried out?

 7        A.   I forgot to say that all teams worked in the same composition.  I

 8     tried to introduce something that exists in all armies of the world, and

 9     that is a single medical military doctrine, in terms of preventive

10     medicine.  I would like to underline that.  So all my work was focused on

11     preventive medical protection, and all teams worked on that in Grude,

12     Posusje, and this main team worked on the basis of the same principle.

13             And now, as far as your question is concerned, the reports, we

14     would send them to where we had come from.  If it's the civilian sector,

15     then we'd send it to the civilian authority involved and also, of course,

16     to the Main Medical Corps headquarters.

17        Q.   Did you also go on such missions to military units, and then who

18     would you report to?

19        A.   Yes, yes.  Well, we were established, inter alia, to practice

20     preventive medicine in the HVO.  After every examination, there would

21     have to be a report.  But I would like to point out that each and every

22     time, I was accompanied by the main person from the medical unit of that

23     particular unit, and he would familiarise himself with the preventive

24     medicine situation in that unit.  And then if we were lucky, we would go

25     to the commander of the unit, and then the same day, usually in the

Page 5501

 1     evening, I would write a report to that unit, and I'd send a report

 2     usually to the superior unit, and also to the Main Medical Corps

 3     headquarters, of course.

 4        Q.   Witness, as you were doing all of this work in an identical way,

 5     did you work in this way on the basis of this identical model throughout

 6     your tour of duty?

 7        A.   Your Honours, I've said that from the moment I started working

 8     and up until the very end of my tour of duty, I worked in the field of

 9     preventive medicine, and on the basis of this model of a single military

10     medical doctrine.  I was engaged up until the end of 1995 in the HVO.

11        Q.   Witness, as far as units are concerned, I would like to remind

12     you, and also for the purpose of the transcript, we are still dealing

13     with 1992.  We haven't even come to June, so I'm asking about that

14     period, and then we'll deal with the other period of time.

15             You said that you had contact with the head of the medical units

16     within the larger units.  You had such contacts.  Did you have them in

17     the same way later?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Tell me, in terms of the units involved, who were the persons

20     that you had contacted, persons who were, in a way, in charge of the

21     medical needs of that particular unit?

22        A.   Since most of these units were at brigade level, that is to say,

23     tactical groups, I had contacts with the head of the medical service of

24     that brigade, and then I would communicate with that head or chief, and

25     then I'd go down to lower-ranking units, like battalions and even

Page 5502

 1     companies.

 2        Q.   Professionally, what was the professional background of this

 3     chief medical officer of the brigade?

 4        A.   That was supposed to be a physician, a general practitioner; that

 5     is to say, not a specialist.

 6        Q.   What about companies and battalions; did they have medical

 7     personnel with some kind of medical qualifications?

 8        A.   If we start with the lowest level, that's company level, that

 9     would be a nurse.  In my country, there used to be a school for nursing,

10     and then it no longer existed.  Most of them came from the former

11     Yugoslav People's Army.  They were people who underwent such training,

12     but were not professional nurses.  They knew very little.  They could

13     give first aid and provide very basic medical protection.

14             Several companies comprised a battalion.  At the battalion level,

15     there would be a medical technician, of course, with the proper degree of

16     training, of course, with a higher level of medical knowledge both in the

17     field of preventive medicine and also in terms of providing care, and

18     then there would be a few orderlies to help him out.  If necessary, if

19     there was combat involved, then he'd send them to lower-ranking units,

20     too.

21             Then several battalions comprise a brigade, and then there were

22     military districts further up, and then there would be heads of the

23     medical service for the entire military district.

24        Q.   Witness, as for your own line of work that we've been discussing

25     so far, that is to say, prevention, preventing sources of infection and

Page 5503

 1     disease, in which way did you have professional contacts with these

 2     persons who were in charge of medical affairs in different units?

 3        A.   Well, first of all, I would establish contact with such a person.

 4     I would go to the unit involved.  I would talk to my colleague.  I would

 5     say to him what it was that he was supposed to do.

 6             I would like to point out that I have written several handbooks

 7     and several sets of instructions.  You must realise that these were young

 8     people, people who did not have sufficient knowledge, people with big

 9     hearts, but at that point in time they had very little knowledge.  I was

10     supposed to educate them in terms of preventive medical care, and I

11     underline that.

12        Q.   Witness, were you their superior?  Your service that was involved

13     with preventive medical care, was it in a superior position in relation

14     to them?  What was the relationship between your service and these

15     persons in different units that were in charge of this?

16        A.   I did not take part in the chain of command, because the medical

17     corps in all armies throughout the world is a professional body, engaged

18     in training as well, which makes proposals, and if you looked at the

19     many, many reports that I wrote, I always propose measures.  Now, as far

20     as the professional area goes, we were professionally superior to them,

21     that's true, and it was our duty to train them.

22        Q.   Witness, I'm going to ask you to tell the Trial Chamber now what

23     happened in around June and July with the Main Medical Corps HQ.  Did it

24     dislocate from Tomislavgrad, did it move?

25        A.   Yes.  Mostar was liberated at that time, and I was given the task

Page 5504

 1     of going to Mostar to be one of the main people to pave the way for the

 2     Main Medical Corps HQ to relocate and to set up a mobile team as well, so

 3     that I had in fact two mobile teams as of that date.  And until the

 4     arrival of a Main Medical Corps HQ, I was placed at the disposal of the

 5     war hospital in Mostar.

 6        Q.   Can you tell me, please, where you were accommodated when you

 7     reached Mostar, and when the Main Medical Corps HQ arrived, where was

 8     that put up?

 9        A.   Mostar itself was very much devastated at the time.  It was

10     destroyed.  And at the beginning of the war, the Main Medical Corps HQ

11     was in the building where the Defence Department worked; that is, later

12     on, of course.

13             After that, we relocated to another public facility a kilometre

14     and a half away, which is the new hospital where, before the war, small

15     sections of it were working.  But during the war, it stopped working, and

16     so we took over some offices on the ground floor, and that's where the

17     Main Medical Corps HQ was relocated to.

18             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me.  Excuse me, Witness.  You are

19     translated and recorded here as saying the following:

20             "At the beginning of the war, the Main Medical Corps was in the

21     building where the Defence Department worked; that is, later on, of

22     course."

23             This reads contradictory, and I would be grateful if you could

24     clarify.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was my mistake.  The Main

Page 5505

 1     Medical Corps headquarters was in Tomislavgrad.  However, with the

 2     liberation of Mostar from the Serb aggression, it was relocated to

 3     Mostar, so that -- we're talking about June and July here.  Now, at that

 4     point, for a very short period of time we were in a building of the

 5     former Tobacco Institute.  That's a building where later on -- later on

 6     the Defence Department came into being.  So after spending a short time

 7     there, we went to the hospital at Bijeli Brijeg which was under

 8     construction and has actually just been completed quite recently.

 9             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

10             Excuse me, Ms. Nozica.

11             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   So we're talking about June 1992.  That's what you're talking

13     about, Witness; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Witness, you mentioned the hospital at Bijeli Brijeg.  Now, as we

16     had a witness in court here last week, I'd like to ask you to explain to

17     the Trial Chamber -- well, we had Dr. Ante Kvesic, that was the witness,

18     and he was the head of the war hospital, so could you explain to Their

19     Honours where that particular war hospital was located or explain to us

20     whether those were two hospitals that you're referring to?

21        A.   Yes, it is two hospitals, and these two hospitals are about three

22     to four kilometres apart from each other.  My colleague, Dr. Kvesic, was

23     the head of the hospital, but he was in the hospital that was up at the

24     front-line, and many world magazines and journals wrote about that.  This

25     other hospital was under construction, and as I say, it is three or four

Page 5506

 1     kilometres away from the first one.  They are physically separated and

 2     have nothing in common.  But Dr. Kvesic was the head doctor, the manager

 3     of that first hospital, but they are -- we're talking about two

 4     completely different hospitals.

 5        Q.   All right, fine.  Now, after the Main Medical Corps HQ relocated

 6     in 1992, and I'm asking you about --

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.

 8             Witness, please, I'm trying to understand.  You said that

 9     Dr. Kvesic was in the hospital that was on the front-line.  I'm a little

10     bit puzzled, therefore.  When you say that it was on the front-line, does

11     this mean that this was a hospital that took charge of those people that

12     had been wounded during the war, that's why this hospital was on the

13     front-line?  Was that the reason why?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mostar -- the whole of Mostar, the

15     town was the front-line, in fact, and this hospital was at a forward

16     post, it was exposed, and it functioned until very recently, the surgery

17     ward.  But, anyway, that's the hospital in town, whereas this other

18     hospital is -- the new hospital that I'm talking about is along the

19     periphery, the outskirts of town, if I can put it that way.  So they're

20     two completely different localities.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's take the case of a

22     wounded HVO soldier.  The soldier is wounded.  Which hospital is he taken

23     to, the one that's on the front-line, or is this person taken to your

24     hospital?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first hospital that Dr. Kvesic

Page 5507

 1     spoke about.  It was operational before the war as well, but the other

 2     hospital started working in mid-July 1993, so there's just this

 3     discontinuity in time.  To begin with, only one hospital was working.

 4     Later on, both of them functioned.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's take the case of an HVO

 6     soldier.  In August of 1993, he receives a bullet in his chest.  Which

 7     hospital is he taken to?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They would take them where there

 9     was available space; mostly to the first hospital.  But as there are a

10     lot of wounded persons, then they would be evacuated to the upper

11     hospital, that is to say, the other hospital as well.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A second case, let's take the

13     case of a child that coughs relentless -- unrelentlessly, that spits out

14     blood.  Which hospital is this child taken to, the first hospital or the

15     second?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A child coughing will go to the

17     pediatric department which was up on the hill very close to the new

18     hospital, because pediatrics, as you know, is a branch of medicine

19     dealing with children's diseases.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

21             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   But let me just ask you, Witness:  The second hospital, where you

23     say was where the Main Medical Corps HQ was located, you talked about

24     that during the Naletilic/Martinovic trial, and that's why I wanted us to

25     differentiate an distinguish between the hospitals, but I think it's very

Page 5508

 1     important at this point for you to explain to Their Honours --

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.  I'd like the

 3     interpreter in the French booth to do his or her job.  Thank you.

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   I think it's important for you to explain to the Trial Chamber

 6     whether the hospital, that second hospital where the Main Medical Corps

 7     HQ was located, had it been completed before the war?  Why wasn't it

 8     working?

 9        A.   The hospital has just been opened just a few days ago, and I can

10     say with pride that it is a specialised hospital, and my boss, Dr. Ante

11     Kvesic, whom you saw, has been proclaimed one of the main citizens of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  But before that, only a small portion had been

13     constructed, but the hospital was finished just a few days ago.

14        Q.   Right, we've cleared that up now.

15             Now, you said in September/October 1992 -- or tell me, whether

16     during that time there was some reorganisation that took place, and where

17     was the Main Medical Corps HQ put up, and did you remain in the same

18     locality you were in before this reorganisation took place?

19        A.   Yes.  Sometime in August, there was reorganisation, so we were no

20     longer referred to as the Main Medical Corps HQ, but we became the Sector

21     for Health attached to the Defence Department, and the Health Sector had

22     three parts.  One was the Main Medical Corps, so it stayed within that

23     sector.  The second sector was for the wounded, and the third sector was

24     for inspection and control.  I was in the Main Medical Corps, and above

25     me -- well, when I say "I," that might not be the right way to put it.  I

Page 5509

 1     might be accused of boasting.  But there was a team -- there was a team

 2     for dentistry, for informatics, for storage, and Mr. Kvesic was our head.

 3        Q.   Witness, so with the establishment of the Defence document, one

 4     of its sectors was the Health Sector, as you said, and it was within this

 5     sector, the Health Sector, that your service was located within the Main

 6     Medical Corps HQ; is that right?  Have I interpreted that correctly?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Tell me now, please, you said you received your first decision,

 9     signed by Mr. Sarac, as you explained to us, but later on, up to 1995, as

10     you said, did these decisions change?  Did you receive any other

11     decisions from other individuals, and did your tasks and assignments

12     change and the job you did, did that change too?

13        A.   Your Honours, I have already said that from the time I started

14     working in the Main Medical Corps HQ, until I finished working within the

15     HVO, I always did the same job, my duties were all the same, always in

16     the sphere of preventive medicine.

17             Now, as far as decisions are concerned, one was for Dr. Bagaric,

18     one from -- was from Mr. Perica Jukic, the minister, and one was from

19     Mr. Vlado Soljic, but only in the field of preventive medicine.  Let me

20     stress that once again.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Ms. Nozica, soon the first hour of the hearing

22     of this witness is over.  I must confess to you that I have not found

23     anything that links anywhere to the indictment.  You will say this --

24     probably that this belongs to joint criminal enterprise, because that's

25     what you always say in the Defence, but I don't see how it does.  It

Page 5510

 1     would be interesting for the medical history of Mostar, but that is not

 2     what we are exactly dealing with.  Could you try to concentrate a bit and

 3     put questions and solicit answers which assist the Bench in its task.

 4             Thank you.

 5             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that these are

 6     very significant issues, and I'm not going to say that it's important for

 7     the joint criminal enterprise, but to come to the merits of the case and

 8     the merits of the indictment, we have to explain the genesis of

 9     everything.  I know how much time I have at my disposal, so I can assure

10     you that this basic information will be very important for you to

11     understand what comes later.

12        Q.   Now, when you came to Mostar in 1992, tell us briefly --

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, one moment, please.

14     I agree entirely with what my colleague Judge Trechsel has just said.

15     We've just spent an hour listening to you, and I'm very expectant.  I

16     don't know what the latter half of your questions will focus on.  I don't

17     see in what way they are assisting us.  Maybe you want to create a degree

18     of suspense, but we are waiting impatiently for these questions.

19             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

20     become quite clear in just a moment, but let's bear in mind the

21     indictment, and the Health Sector within the indictment, and the position

22     of the service in which this witness was working, for us to be able to

23     explain what his task was.  We have to put it in the general context, the

24     overall tasks responsibilities of this particular witness.

25        Q.   Now, Witness, since Their Honours are impatient to hear the crux

Page 5511

 1     of the matter, the substance of the issues, could you explain to them

 2     just briefly how, when you arrived in Mostar in 1992, onwards -- or,

 3     rather, what your main tasks were.  What areas did you have to visit in

 4     order to prevent the outbreak of diseases?

 5        A.   I've already said, the team's function was integral, to look at

 6     the military and civilian sector, and according to the postulates of

 7     epidemiology, was to visit the waterworks system.  Secondly, to visit

 8     everywhere where people congregated in large numbers, because if you have

 9     large numbers, there's always the danger of infectious and contagious

10     diseases which could become epidemics.  Third, to visit food supplies and

11     the utilities companies.  Then, number 5, to go with the units.  I had to

12     come into contact with all persons concerned and everybody who could help

13     me prevent the outbreak of infectious diseases.

14        Q.   Now, you mentioned the waterworks system, you mentioned civilian

15     institutions and locations, you mentioned visiting the units.  Could you

16     explain to Their Honours, who did you talk to when you went to visit the

17     waterworks system, for example, and who did you send a report to,

18     reporting on the conditions?

19        A.   The waterworks are a central location.  I went to the director,

20     to the manager, and I always demanded that a residual chlorine be at a

21     level 0.3 to 0.4, and then I would send out a report to the civilian

22     authorities and to the Health Sector.

23        Q.   Witness, when it comes to water and Mostar, are there any

24     specific features to be noted in that year of 1992?  What was specific

25     with water then?  Did Mostar have sufficient water supplies?  I'm talking

Page 5512

 1     about 1992 and especially 1993.

 2        A.   In 1993 -- or, rather, 1993 was -- has been described as Mostar's

 3     driest year.  Now, Mostar had two waterworks systems, and the amount of

 4     water -- because of the amount of shelling, many of the pipes had been

 5     damaged, and the water levels ran very low, and there was the permanent

 6     danger of water contamination from the sewage system, which would lead to

 7     an outbreak of intestinal diseases.

 8             Now, I lived in town, in the center of town.  I was on the fifth

 9     floor of a high-rise building, and I didn't have any water, so we had to

10     go down to the hydrant and take water there for the basics, the

11     essentials.

12        Q.   I see, thank you.  Now, could you explain to the Trial Chamber,

13     what of your tours to the units?  What did you do when you went to tour a

14     unit, who did you talk to, and what were your priorities?

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before you answer Ms. Nozica's

16     question, let me go back to the issue of water.

17             I now discover that you were living in the center of Mostar, that

18     you did not get any water, and that you had to go to the hydrant to get

19     some water.  As far as you know, was there anyone in Mostar who died of

20     thirst or who died because they did not have enough water or who suffered

21     serious consequences because they could not drink any water?  Was there a

22     single case?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that,

24     Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are you sure?

Page 5513

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot say with any degree

 2     of certainty.  I mean, I don't know.  That's what I'm saying, I don't

 3     know.

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  While we're at it in the same vein, Witness.

 5     Can you tell us about any epidemics that broke out during the war in

 6     Mostar due to unclean water?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, not in Mostar, nowhere

 8     at the level of Herceg-Bosna was there a single epidemic, not through

 9     water, not through food, and I personally consider that to be the

10     achievement of my life, and I --

11             [In English] [Indiscernible] is a world famous medical journal.

12             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I did not have the translation, but the last

13     words were in English, I can see.  I can only say congratulations.

14             I'm still waiting for a link to the indictment, Ms. Nozica.

15             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you don't see that

16     in the case of water, in the case of water in Mostar, then perhaps I

17     don't understand what would be significant in terms of this witness.

18        Q.   Witness, we are going to go back to the question of water in

19     Mostar, as you've said that was the water situation in Mostar, in the

20     west part of Mostar in 1993.  However, there is a report about that, and

21     that's a very important topic.

22             For the transcript, I would just like to say that the witness

23     revealed his identity on lines 13 and 14 on page 14, so I don't think it

24     would be a bad idea to have that section redacted.

25             Now, Witness, very briefly, very concisely, could you explain to

Page 5514

 1     the Honourable Trial Chamber about this mobile team of yours when you

 2     went to work on prevention in a particular unit?  Could you explain who

 3     you met up with and where you carried out examinations?

 4        A.   First of all, we would go to the chief medical officer of that

 5     unit, say in a brigade, say in Capljina was Dr. Sutalo.  First of all, we

 6     would talk and see whether there were any problems.  Yet again, I'm

 7     saying in the field of preventive medical care.  Are there any contagious

 8     diseases there?  Are there any individual cases of this nature, is there

 9     a link between and among them, and whether there is a possibility of an

10     epidemic breaking out.

11             I would like to note that water is very important.  I'll just

12     give you the example of the city of Hamburg in 1812.  2.600 people got

13     cholera.  In cholera -- in Pristina, over 1.000 people got cholera.  Take

14     cholera -- or, rather, typhoid, and cholera is a very important -- that's

15     a very important case.  There was a lot of cholera.

16        Q.   Witness, there is no need for you to lapse into English, because

17     you can just confuse the interpreters by speaking both languages at the

18     same time.  Just tell us what you focused on.

19        A.   First of all, water.  We had to -- we had to find how much

20     residual chlorine there was.  That is to say, if there was no residual

21     chlorine in water, then that water should not be imbibed.  It is

22     potentially dangerous because it has microbiological agents.  We carried

23     out such checks in respect of food, too, because food can also lead to

24     infections.  We know that today, even in big hotel chains like Hilton,

25     say there was an outbreak of salmonella in Glasgow five years ago, and so

Page 5515

 1     on and so forth.  Also, we looked at what accommodation was for the

 2     soldiers, I mean, that we have to make a distinction between barracks and

 3     front-lines, but I guess we'll be dealing with that later.  Also, we

 4     looked at what waste disposal was like.  You know full well that if that

 5     is inadequate, then that is one of the possible vectors that lead to the

 6     outbreak of contagious diseases.

 7             Further on, I looked at what the medical supplies were, from the

 8     point of view of preventive medicine.  Also, I asked to see medical

 9     documentation.  Unfortunately, at first there wasn't any; later on, there

10     were medical documents, because adequate medical documentation could

11     reflect what the health situation was.

12             I will say for a hundred times, if necessary, that every time I

13     educated and trained my colleagues, we had people who had university

14     degrees, who had knowledge, but no experience, and I would like to say

15     that public health had totally been neglected in my country, regrettably.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Doctor, what you say about West

17     Mostar -- or based on what you said, everything was done, but our problem

18     is about East Mostar.  So what did you do for East Mostar?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no one asked me.

20             As soon as I arrived in Mostar, I established contact with my

21     colleagues from the left bank.  Also, I carried out this education that

22     I'm so proud of.

23             I'm digressing now, but two months ago there was an epidemic of

24     infectious hepatitis on the left bank among some refugees.  I was called

25     by these people, and I prevented an epidemic; that is to say, that I had

Page 5516

 1     this educational role to play, and I'm very proud of that.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're saying that you were

 3     in touch with your colleagues in East Mostar and that, together with

 4     them, you would monitor the health or sanitary conditions regarding water

 5     and food?

 6           THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour, yes (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8     (redacted)

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think we need to redact this

10     line, because knowing your colleagues name, you would be identified

11     easily.  We're going to have an order.  Mr. Registrar, please prepare it.

12             Continue.

13             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Just a small question.

14             The yellow fever, I think it was, epidemic that you spoke about a

15     moment ago, when was that?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it wasn't yellow

17     fever, it was virus Hepatitis A, so that was very important.  It broke

18     out just now.  I am an infectologist, but they called me even now, and

19     I'm very proud of that.  I was on federal TV and talked about it for an

20     hour.

21             Yellow fever, that is a disease --

22             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  It was a linguistic problem, because Hepatitis B

23     in Germany is called "Gelbsucht," as you may know, and "gelb" is yellow,

24     so I mixed it up.  I'm sorry, you're quite right.

25             Ms. Nozica.

Page 5517

 1             THE WITNESS:  "Wir konnen aber  Deutsch sprechen, wenn Sie wollen

 2     mochten.  Es ist mir ganz egal."

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  But we are not here for a dialogue, Doctor,

 4     unfortunately.  This is for everyone.

 5             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Exactly, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Witness, you said that you haven't been asked, but I do intend to

 7     ask you.  However, His Honour Judge Antonetti asked first.

 8             When you said that you carried out this education of your

 9     colleagues on the east bank, can you explain when it was that this had

10     happened?  Was it before the conflict between the Bosniaks and Croats?

11     And tell me, in terms of this education, did you also go to locations

12     where the units were, the then units, say, of the Mostar Battalion?

13     Later on, these were units of the 4th Corps.  Did you visit these

14     localities in an identical fashion, as you had been doing in the case of

15     the HVO?

16     (redacted)

17     (redacted)

18     (redacted)

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We need a redaction of line 13,

20     page 35, Mr. Registrar.

21             Please proceed.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So I carried out this education.

23     The system of work for me was absolutely identical, regardless of whether

24     it had to do with the right bank or the left bank, regardless of whether

25     it had to do with civilians or the military.  It was based on the single

Page 5518

 1     military medical doctrine.

 2             In response to your question, yes, yes, I went to the front-line

 3     of the BH Army and the HVO.  The same education went to all.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a technical question for

 5     you, based on what you said just now.

 6             We have heard a lot of witnesses.  We've been sitting here for

 7     over two years.  We've heard a lot of witnesses, and I remember a woman.

 8     She was going to fetch some water from the river, and she was killed by

 9     sniper fire.  I'd like to know this:  Somebody getting water from the

10     stream, could they boil the water in order to drink it afterwards,

11     without putting any chlorine in it?  Can it be drunk then?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  First of all, you said "the

13     river."  It must be the Neretva.  I assume that it was a conflict between

14     the two warring parties.  Water can be boiled and even used for

15     disinfection later on.  So, yes, I often did that myself.  I often took

16     such water myself.  And it is a crime to kill anyone anywhere at any

17     time.

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Witness, you said just now how you toured this unit.  Tell me

20     very briefly, because time is short, after touring the headquarters of

21     the unit, did you go to the front-line too or, rather, out into the field

22     where the troops were?

23        A.   Well, I was a real doctor, not a salon doctor.  I did go, indeed,

24     not only in the case of the HVO, but also the BH Army, and I'm so proud

25     of that, very proud of that, and everyone knows that from all structures.

Page 5519

 1        Q.   Witness, after that, after all these tours, did you compile a

 2     report?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And you submitted them according to the methodology that you

 5     already described?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Witness, now I'm going to put a few questions to you about

 8     conditions on the front in respect of the HVO units.  We are talking

 9     about the period after the conflict with the BH Army.  I would be

10     interested in three segments.  Since you often went to the front-line, I

11     would be interested in hearing about three segments.

12             Where were the soldiers sleeping?  What kind of food did they

13     have, and what kind of water did they have?  Can you briefly explain to

14     the Trial Chamber what your experience is in relation to these three

15     conditions under which HVO members lived at the front-line?

16        A.   First of all, you asked about sleep.  As for sleep, at the

17     front-line two elements have to be distinguished.  One group of soldiers

18     would be at the front-line and others would be resting.  They would be

19     resting mostly in houses that were heavily damaged, often had no water,

20     and often they even used tents.  I would like to say that the same goes

21     for the Muslim forces too.

22             As for food, food came from the central kitchen of that

23     particular unit.  However, the basic postulate was that if food is

24     consumed, two hours after it is cooked, it should not be used.  We have

25     to realise there were soldiers who were at forward posts, and they only

Page 5520

 1     ate dry food, not cooked meals.

 2             And what was your third question?

 3        Q.   Water.

 4        A.   There was very little water.  I think that it was only sufficient

 5     to meet the basic needs of organisms; 0.3 or 0.4 per cent was the allowed

 6     percentage of chlorine.

 7        Q.   As far as sleep is concerned, according to your experience, you

 8     toured all these units, these houses where they were, did they have beds?

 9     We're talking about abandoned houses.  You said that primarily they were

10     in these houses that had been abandoned.  Did they have blankets, and

11     what was the situation like in the very beginning, and did it improve

12     somewhat as time went by?

13        A.   There weren't any beds.  They slept on spreads, and they had

14     blankets.  I personally wrote and asked for these blankets to be washed

15     and disinfected.  Unfortunately, that is one of the segments that no one

16     took care of.  At first, they thought that my requests were impossible,

17     and they thought that I brought that from the former army.  They did not

18     realise that this was prevention of skin diseases.

19             And I also need to point out that at first, due to indolence and

20     ignorance, they didn't want to dig toilets either.

21        Q.   Food.  What was your assessment?  If it was brought from food --

22     from the brigade, was there enough food, was the quality good?  What

23     would your general assessment of the food be?

24        A.   In all armies of the world, there is this system of cooking large

25     quantities of food at the same time and also that cannot get infected

Page 5521

 1     easily, so throughout the world food does not vary to a great deal.  It

 2     is insufficiently varied.  At first, it wasn't very good, but later on it

 3     got better.  There wasn't enough variety.  The quality was fairly good,

 4     but due to epidemiological reasons, they had to make due.

 5        Q.   The members of the HVO, of the Croatian Defence Council, as far

 6     as water is concerned, in this situation when they were at the

 7     front-line, did they have enough water for hygiene?

 8        A.   There was very little water.  There was just enough to keep them

 9     alive from a biological point of view.

10        Q.   Witness, now that we have painted this general picture, could you

11     please respond to the Trial Chamber and say whether you went to prisons,

12     isolation locations, or centres where prisoners of war were?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Can you recall when it was that you first visited a locality

15     called a prison or that was in one of the mentioned categories?

16        A.   Well, look, I've already said, but you may have forgotten, every

17     large group of people, if they are at the same locality, they provide

18     fertile ground for the outbreak of infectious diseases.  In winter

19     months, it is respiratory diseases; throughout the year, stomach-related

20     diseases and also nervous disorders, including even meningitis.  For me,

21     a prison is a house where people are kept and are not allowed to leave.

22     From a medical point of view, that's it.

23             I went for the first time when my colleague, (redacted), asked

24     me -- or, rather, I have to tell you something else before that.

25             I came from the former army.  (redacted) had very good

Page 5522

 1     relations.  However, I realised that if -- if someone who is my superior

 2     said something to me, that was an order for me, although it was not an

 3     order, necessarily.  That was my understanding of the matter.

 4             I went to the spot itself.  I went there to do my work, and my

 5     colleague, (redacted), said to me, It seems that at the

 6     Heliodrom, there are many people who had been assembled there.  Please go

 7     and see what this is all about.  Please take care of it all, from the

 8     point of view of preventive medicine.  Please don't allow anything

 9     inappropriate to happen.

10        Q.   You said, "Don't allow any epidemiological incident to take

11     place."  Was that the end of your sentence?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You tend to sometimes swallow your words, so that wasn't

14     recorded.  Can you tell me when that was?

15        A.   That was in mid-May 1993.

16        Q.   Witness, did you go to prisons that were called Dretelj and

17     Gabela?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did you do that in the same way -- did (redacted) tell you or

20     did you learn that those prisons had been formed?

21        A.   I think my colleague (redacted), but the way in which I

22     worked was -- well, 85 per cent of the decisions I took myself.  However,

23     when you're engaged in preventive medicine, you have to go on location.

24     You're not a doctor in a hospital.  You have to go on location and take

25     measures to prevent diseases, so that is your vocation, to go on the

Page 5523

 1     spot, on location.

 2        Q.   Before we move on to the documents that tell us about that, let's

 3     clear up a few points.

 4             Witness, you, as a doctor, and I'm asking you this because of the

 5     questions you were asked during the Naletilic/Martinovic trial, did you

 6     differentiate between prisons, detention centres, detention and so on?

 7        A.   I don't know the difference now and I didn't know the difference

 8     then.  As far as I'm concerned, it's all the same, all one thing.

 9        Q.   Very well.  We have just a little time left before the break.

10     Can you explain to us, when you toured these places and localities, was

11     the system of work in force for the control of these premises identical

12     as you explained to us earlier on, the system you applied when you went

13     to the units, whether it was HVO units or previously the BH Army units?

14        A.   I said, yes, I did -- I worked according to a uniform medical

15     doctrine for wartime.

16        Q.   What were the priorities, could you repeat that, in all these

17     places?

18        A.   Well, the same thing would happen if I went to see refugees.  I

19     didn't make any differentiation between refugees, displaced persons,

20     soldiers and the prisons.  The priorities were, let me repeat, water,

21     food, accommodation, dealing with waste matter, and then whether

22     documents were being kept, whether the right documents were being sent

23     out, and, furthermore, the education and training of the population,

24     whether they be doctors or whoever.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you are now addressing

Page 5524

 1     an essential issue.  You said that you would go and visit these people,

 2     refugees, military, or prisoners.  I'm quoting there.  I want to know the

 3     following:  When you would go to the Heliodrom, would you go and see free

 4     people, or people who were detained, or still people having another

 5     status?  Or you, as a doctor of medicine, you didn't ask yourself that

 6     question?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as a physician, and

 8     now as an assistant professor, as far as I'm concerned, I have taken the

 9     Hippocratic oath, so as far as I'm concerned, there are no prefixes that

10     I apply.  A man is a man, regardless of his title.  All I distinguish

11     between is healthy and sick, young/old, male/female.  I know of no other

12     categories.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think the time has come for a

14     break.  We're going to break for 20 minutes.

15                           --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

18             Ms. Nozica, you have had 58 minutes so far.  You have one hour

19     and two minutes.  Therefore, I would like to mention to the witness that

20     he should avoid mentioning names of people, because when that happens,

21     this may identify you.  When you have a question, raise your hand, and

22     then we shall move into closed session.  Otherwise, I will spend my

23     afternoon signing redaction orders.  I have three already, and I'm

24     waiting for the Registrar to hand me a pen.

25             Ms. Nozica.

Page 5525

 1             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Witness, the Judge has just told you what I wanted to tell you,

 3     because the problem throughout your testimony was the fact that you

 4     mention names.  Now, we have the transcript of your testimony during the

 5     Naletilic trial, and during that testimony you enjoyed the same

 6     protective measures, and the same names were mentioned then that you

 7     mention now.  Now, if you want to name names, then ask us to go into

 8     closed session so that we don't have to redact the transcript.

 9             I know that Dr. Bagaric and all the other names were mentioned

10     many times, and you had no problem there, but if you have a problem with

11     names, then you let us know in advance and we'll move into private

12     session.

13             Anyway, let's move on.  My last questions were related to the

14     visits to the prisons, detention centres, and so on.  We mentioned

15     Heliodrom, Dretelj, Gabela.  Now, as far as that portion of your

16     testimony is concerned, tell us, please, who you went to tour these

17     places with, and we'll move on to the documents afterwards.  Who took you

18     to those prisons?  Who did you go there with?  Who did you report to?

19     Who did you go with?

20        A.   First of all, let me say that I came with my -- one of my fellow

21     workers to the unit, and if you looked at the reports, it always says

22     that one of my staff was with me.

23             Secondly, I reported to the chief of the medical corps of the

24     said unit.  If I was in Capljina, specifically, then I would report to

25     the chief of the Knez Domagoj Medical Corps.  If I was in the area of the

Page 5526

 1     3rd Brigade, I would talk to their commander.  And I would discuss the

 2     situation in the unit first, we would analyse the situation in the unit,

 3     and let me emphasise all this concerning preventive medicine and what

 4     measures to take in that regard.  Then, we would take a look at the

 5     infirmary and the medicines to see whether there was sufficient supplies

 6     of medicines, and I asked every time to see all the medical

 7     documentation, and on that basis I was able to see the death rate, if

 8     there had been, or I could -- was able to conclude whether any infectious

 9     diseases had occurred.

10             Now, after that, I would ask the chiefs, the commanders, whether

11     there was anything they had failed to inform me of.  And I would always

12     ask, when I went to prisons, what the situation there was, and they would

13     describe the situation.  And once the head person had done that, then the

14     two of us would go and tour the said locality.  That would be it.

15        Q.   We'll go into all the details and look at your reports, but I

16     just want to ask you:  Who was in charge of dealing with the medical care

17     and attention of persons in these prisons?

18        A.   If you read my reports and some of the instructions that were

19     issued by the Health Sector, it was the unit that was there that was

20     superior.  So if we're talking about Capljina, the medical corps of the

21     Knez Domagoj Brigade.  If it was Mostar, Heliodrom.  Then the chief of

22     the medical corps would be the chief of the 3rd Motorised Brigade.

23        Q.   Before we look at the documents, tell me whether you used the

24     same methods and methodology, as you explained to us earlier on, whenever

25     you visited these places and compiled your reports, and tell us how you

Page 5527

 1     structured your report.

 2        A.   All my reports were done in a uniform manner, based on a uniform

 3     wartime medical doctrine, and the same system applied, and I worked with

 4     refugees, with army members, and in the prisons as well.  The structure

 5     of the report was as follows:  Well, I would state my views orally first

 6     and then write all this down and say there was water, which was extremely

 7     important from the aspects of medical prevention.  Then we would look at

 8     accommodation.  After that, we would look to see whether there were any

 9     specific diseases.  I would examine persons myself.  Then residues, waste

10     matter, how that was seen to, where the persons were accommodated, what

11     they had to cover themselves with, and so on.  I've already mentioned

12     waste matter and so on.

13             And then on the basis of all these factors, I would compile a

14     report.  And if we are dealing with a prison, for example, if that's what

15     you meant, then I would get information from the brigade physician,

16     Dr. Hadzic or the late Dr. Stranjak, but also I would talk to people

17     myself and ask people I knew personally, so that my report was always

18     compiled in a multi-disciplinary approach to the problems in hand.

19        Q.   Witness, could you give me shorter answers.  I asked you about

20     the structure.  Did you first of all note down who was present?  Just

21     briefly.

22        A.   Well, all the reports were the same, compiled in the same way.

23     They are of a scientific nature and can be verified.  First of all, the

24     day I visited, who was with me from my team, which of my staff was with

25     me; for example, who was from the 3rd Brigade, a doctor from the 1st

Page 5528

 1     Brigade, that kind of thing.  Then, afterwards, we would say what we

 2     found.  And after that, and this is an important portion, we would

 3     propose measures as to what should be done, because we didn't have any

 4     type of command function, we're not part of the chain of command.  All we

 5     can do is propose measures, because we have a consultative professional

 6     and educational/training body.  After that, we would look at what would

 7     happen unless those measures were implemented.  That would be in the

 8     conclusion.  And then, finally, who these reports were addressed to.  And

 9     the same thing was repeated for each and every case, each and every

10     report.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Witness, would you take up the binder in front

12     of you, and we'll go through the documents, through all the documents,

13     looking at all the topics that you've been testifying about over this

14     last hour.

15             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me, Ms. Nozica.

16             (redacted), there is one sentence where I do not quite understand

17     what you want to say.  It's page 46, line first.  It says:

18             "After that, after having examined, we would look at what would

19     happen unless those measures were implemented."

20             That's the sentence.  I don't quite understand what you are

21     saying here.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, what you should know

23     is this:  In preventive medicine, you forecast what a situation might be

24     and you take steps to prevent adverse things from happening.  Now,

25     curative medicine, you treat persons straight away, where preventive

Page 5529

 1     medicine you make your forecast, you try and foresee what might happen

 2     and put measures in place to prevent infectious diseases from breaking

 3     out, specifically in my area.  I think that's the answer.

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  I think I understand that.

 5             The question that I would like to ask is whether you also

 6     verified and took note and reported on whether and how your

 7     recommendations were implemented.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes.  In some of the

 9     reports, it says on the basis of -- compared to my previous report, the

10     situation is either better or worse, better because of such and such,

11     worse because of such and such.  So what we endeavour to do was to get a

12     step-by-step advance and progress to prevent infectious diseases from

13     breaking out.  If you look at Heliodrom, infectious diseases know no

14     boundaries.  They will affect soldiers, their families, so they're

15     contagious, they lead to the spread of disease.

16             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Counsel.

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Witness, could you take a look at the first document now, please.

20     It is P3355, which is a report on the work -- P3355 is the document

21     number, and it is the report on the work of the Defence Department for

22     January to June.  Look at page 26 first, please.  It relates to the

23     Defence Department.

24             I have a message telling me that Judge Trechsel, on page 46, line

25     11, mentioned the witness's name.

Page 5530

 1             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I apologise, yes.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's been corrected.  The order

 3     has been filed.  I'll probably have a cramp by the end of the afternoon

 4     if I continue this way.

 5             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I'll do my best to prevent mistakes

 6     from happening, but of course anything can happen.

 7             Now we'd like to look at page 23 of the English.

 8        Q.   Have you found it, Witness?

 9        A.   It's 26 in the Croatian.

10        Q.   That's quite right.  And here we have the Health Sector, which

11     was the sector that included your own service; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Take a look at page 27 now, please.  On page 27, which is page 24

14     of the English, we see that when the Health Sector, the Main Medical

15     Corps HQ was active, now, is that the headquarters that your service was

16     active in?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now take a look at page 31, and in the English it is page 29.

19     Have you found it?  This is an epidemiological/toxicological report, or,

20     rather, a report of the Infectious Diseases, Epidemiological and

21     Toxicological Service.

22             Witness, we don't have much time, but, anyway, over the next two

23     pages of this report, we have a listing of all of your jobs -- all the

24     tasks that you performed during the reporting period, where the final

25     conclusion, the penultimate paragraph on page 33, which states that you

Page 5531

 1     compiled 81 daily reports and 21 weekly reports?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   I'd just like to draw your attention to something we did not

 4     discuss yet.  On page 32, it says that you compiled a series of

 5     instructions, sets of instructions, or, rather, your service, or you

 6     yourself, which applied, well, during this period of time in -- for the

 7     purpose of education, and you handed it over to the brigade's medical

 8     corps?

 9        A.   Yes.  This is just a part of it.  There was much more.

10        Q.   This is a general overview of your work, Witness, so you can skip

11     the next document in the binder and find document 2D 2021.  We're now

12     moving on to what did you in concrete terms, 2021.  It should be the

13     third document in your binder.

14             THE WITNESS:  Could you help me, please?

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, you mustn't display

16     this document, because one might identify the witness.

17             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, then I think it would

18     be a good idea to move into private session, and I'll do that for all the

19     reports.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, closed session.

21                           [Private session]

22    (redacted)

23    (redacted)

24    (redacted)

25    (redacted)

Page 5532











11 Pages 37532-37565 redacted. Private session.















Page 5566

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]    

20                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we are in closed session,

22     or public session, are we?  Yes, we are in open session.

23             MR. SCOTT:  I don't think it's -- excuse me, Your Honour.

24             I don't think it's particularly critical.  I won't -- out of an

25     abundance of caution, I won't mention the name of the next witness,

Page 5567

 1     Your Honour.  But just for scheduling purposes, it would assist the

 2     Prosecution, and presumably everyone else in the courtroom, if we knew

 3     what the schedule would be for the next witness and whether the witness

 4     will then start tomorrow or whether we'll be starting on the next witness

 5     on Wednesday, and I thought the Chamber might inquire.

 6             Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Ms. Nozica, what about

 8     the second witness this week?  Is he going to be ready to testify

 9     tomorrow already or is it going to be Wednesday?

10             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, according to our

11     schedule, the witness will be coming in on Wednesday, and he'll be ready

12     for Wednesday because he's just arrived today, so we won't have another

13     witness tomorrow.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we should finish this

15     witness tomorrow.  Very well.

16             At any rate, the Trial Chamber is going to issue a decision

17     regarding the next witness, but it will be filed tomorrow or at least as

18     soon as possible.

19             I'm now addressing the Defence counsel who wish to cross-examine

20     this witness.

21             Ms. Alaburic.

22             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, according to our

23     internal order, I'm next for the cross-examination of this witness.  I

24     don't know whether you want me to start straight away or to hear the

25     views about the other Defence teams, whether they will be

Page 5568

 1     cross-examining.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, it might be good to know

 3     who wants to cross-examine, to arrange time much.

 4             Are you going to speak, Mr. Kovacic?

 5             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.  Good

 6     afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.  The Defence of General Praljak

 7     has no questions for this witness, thank you.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And as for Mr. Coric?

 9             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10     We're not sure yet, but even if we do have questions, it will just be one

11     or two, briefly.

12             Thank you.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  For Mr. Pusic?

14             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] As things now stand,

15     Mr. President, we probably don't have any questions for this witness, but

16     we'll leave the decision to when our time comes.  Thank you.

17             MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence of Dr. Prlic has no

18     questions for this witness.  Thank you.

19             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I wish to officially wish

20     everybody good afternoon.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Alaburic:

22        Q.   And good afternoon to you, too, Witness.  My name is

23     Vesna Alaburic, I'm an attorney from Zagreb, and in this trial I am

24     Defence counsel for General Milivoj Petkovic.  I'd like to you explain

25     some of your answers, the answers you gave to the following questions:

Page 5569

 1     First of all, your supervision over the Heliodrom location; the second

 2     group of questions will relate to authorisation for taking decisions from

 3     the Health Sector of the Defence Department; and the third group of

 4     questions will relate to the establishment and organisation of the Health

 5     Sector and authorisations for appointments and dismissals so that we can

 6     see what the chain of command was like, the line of subordination.

 7             I'd like to ask the interpreters that if I do not use the chain

 8     of command, but the line of subordination, to use the same term in

 9     English, "chain of subordination," could "the chain of subordination" be

10     used in the future.  Thank you.

11             So, Witness, about Heliodrom, if I notice correctly, the Defence

12     of Bruno Stojic put three of your reports to you about a supervision over

13     Heliodrom, and I'm interested in comparing two of them.  The first

14     document, and I'm sure you'll remember it, the first document is 2D 754,

15     which is a report dated the 20th of July, 1993, and the second report is

16     number P 5503, dated the 30th of September, 1993.

17             If I analyse these reports correctly, Witness, in the first of

18     those report mention is made of your communication with the Sanitary

19     Service of the 3rd Brigade.  And at the of September, in the report, the

20     infirmary is mentioned of the Centre for Preventive Isolation, Heliodrom.

21     Do you remember these differences, or would you like to look at the

22     documents?

23        A.   Could you repeat what you said, please?

24        Q.   In the first document, dated the 20th of July, 1993, you mention

25     your communication with the Sanitary Service of the 3rd Brigade, among

Page 5570

 1     other things, and in the second report, dated the 30th of September,

 2     under item 5, the infirmary of the centre is mentioned.  Yes, the

 3     infirmary of the centre is mentioned, and it is the Centre for Preventive

 4     Isolation for Heliodrom.  And I note that in September, you in fact

 5     contacted some other doctors and medical officers and not the staff of

 6     the 3rd Brigade; is that right?

 7        A.   Your Honours, the first point is this:  The infirmary was set

 8     up -- and we're talking about the detainees; is that what you're

 9     referring to?

10        Q.   Yes, yes.

11        A.   At the persistent insistence, well, by me and my superior, the

12     infirmary was set up.  We -- the two of us kept insisting on that.  We

13     found doctors that we engaged, and once again when we persistently

14     insisted, a stay -- an infirmary was set up.  So we wanted to give a more

15     qualitative form of professional assistance.

16        Q.   I'm going to ask you to look at a document, and then you can tell

17     me whether that is the decision, and could we provide the witness with

18     that -- the set of documents and the two documents, two extra documents.

19             Witness, you have two separate documents which we prepared.  It

20     is P 4145.  It is a request by Mr. Bagaric, dated the 12th of August,

21     1993, to the effect that a sanitary station be set up at Heliodrom.  And

22     now, in the penultimate paragraph, it says to release -- "The physicians

23     of the 3rd Brigade shall be relieved of all duties at Heliodrom."

24             Do you know of this request?

25        A.   I personally don't, but this is a mistake, because in all our

Page 5571

 1     reports so far, the observation made is that the medical service of a

 2     particular brigade, of a specific brigade, and if we're talking about

 3     Heliodrom, that it is duty-bound to provide all the medical services, and

 4     here we mean the prison.  So this is a mistake.  And if you look at all

 5     the other reports -- well, this is a document that is unknown to me.  I'm

 6     not familiar with this document.

 7        Q.   Witness, tell us, please, do you mean to say that this request by

 8     Mr. Bagaric about the establishment of a medical service at Heliodrom was

 9     never implemented?

10        A.   No, you misunderstood me.  I was quite decisive in my first three

11     sentences.  At the insistence of Dr. Bagaric and me, we managed to set up

12     the infirmary.  That was the first organ.  Then we set up a centre,

13     medical centre, which was in an infirmary with beds, and that was located

14     at Heliodrom.  We found doctors who had been held in detention, and their

15     work was controlled by the Medical Corps of the 3rd Brigade.  And if

16     anything was unclear with respect to preventive medical care and

17     attention, geared towards preventing diseases, then the Preventive

18     Medical Service was in charge, and I was at the head of that service.

19        Q.   I apologise.  I didn't understand you properly.  Now, what it

20     says here, in this request, that the physicians of the 3rd Brigade shall

21     be relieved of all the duties in Heliodrom, was not what happened in

22     practice; right?

23        A.   No, no, that was not what happened in practice.

24        Q.   All right, fine.  Now let's look at the next document, another

25     separate document.

Page 5572

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'm worried about the

 2     physicians of the 3rd Brigade.  You say it was a mistake in the document.

 3     It could be a mistake, but it could also not be one.  Dr. Bagaric is

 4     going to come and testify.  We shall ask him personally.  However, if I

 5     assume that this was not a mistake, that it was therefore decided to have

 6     the situation supervised by other physicians, I talk about the situation

 7     of the detainees in the Heliodrom, would that be logical or not for you?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, you will recall

 9     from the very beginning it was said that medical care and attention over

10     the detainees would be carried out by the detainee physicians and

11     controlled by the brigade, if it is the 1st or 3rd Brigade, and if need

12     be for preventive medicine, then the team that I led would be involved.

13     So we come into a collision here.  Quite certainly, the doctors who were

14     detainees were -- did their work, but were supervised by physicians from

15     the 3rd Brigade, but if the need arose for preventive medicine, then it

16     would be the preventive medicine team that would be involved, and that

17     was certainly how things stood.

18             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Witness, at Heliodrom, there were quite a lot of different

20     facilities and buildings; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Apart from the soldiers of the 3rd Brigade at Heliodrom, there

23     were other military units too; right?

24        A.   As far as I remember, there was the ABK --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat?

Page 5573

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] ABKO, Atomic, Biological and

 2     Chemical Defence; that is to say, people who were educated in exercising

 3     control and supervision over biological warfare and agents,

 4     biological/chemical agents.

 5             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   So you don't know of any other units there?

 7        A.   I think there was the military police as well, but that would be

 8     speculation.  I'm not quite sure.

 9        Q.   All right, fine.  Now, at Heliodrom, there was the Military

10     Investigatory Prison, Central Investigatory Prison; right?

11        A.   Yes, we've already said that.

12        Q.   Yes, we're just listing them again.  And in some of the

13     facilities, there were people incarcerated there because there were so

14     many of them that they didn't all fit into the prison building; is that

15     right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Could you theoretically have a situation whereby the physicians

18     of the 3rd Brigade had a lot of work to do, in the sense of seeing to the

19     medical care of these units and the soldiers, and that they didn't have

20     any human resources to care for the prisoners?  Would that be the

21     situation?

22        A.   In theory, that would be the case, but in practice, it would be a

23     little different.  And if you're interested, I can tell you about it.

24        Q.   All right, fine.  We can return to that later.

25             Now I'd like to show you a document which is linked, in a way, to

Page 5574

 1     logistics and the kitchen, and that was another topic that you discussed.

 2     The document is a separate document, and the number is 54186 -- P 4186.

 3        A.   Yes, I can see that.  Go ahead.

 4        Q.   It was a request from Mr. Stanko Bozic, who was the warden of the

 5     Central Prison, sent to Mr. Bruno Stojic, as head of the Defence

 6     Department, on the 14th of August, 1993, and I'm going to summarise the

 7     document, which says that the 3rd Brigade provided logistics by the very

 8     fact that it was in the same location, but that now the 3rd Brigade could

 9     no longer carry out that function, and that they had informed -- they had

10     sent a written notice on the 13th of August, 1993, and now the warden of

11     the prison addresses Bruno Stojic to ask him to help resolve the problem

12     of logistics that has cropped up.

13             Now, tell me, Witness, at the time when you engaged in

14     supervision of Heliodrom, did you have any knowledge to the effect that

15     the 3rd Brigade was simply not able, because of the large number of

16     detainees, to provide logistical support to the prison at Heliodrom?

17        A.   First of all, I have never seen this document before, and I don't

18     see how I could have.  However, no one ever -- well, I came across

19     Mr. Bozic several times.  If you remember, I said that I toured all the

20     units and these prisons with the chief of the medical corps and with the

21     warden, if he was there.  We discussed everything, and I sent reports.

22     He never said to me, personally, anything about that.  Had he done so, I

23     would have done whatever was within my powers.

24        Q.   Witness, I will now fully respect the fact that in civilian

25     services, the word "decision" is used for what the military terms as an

Page 5575

 1     order, and that in the civilian authority, there is a chain of

 2     subordination, and that would be the chain of command in the military.

 3     So if I sometimes confuse the two terms, please forgive me.  It's not

 4     intentional.

 5             I would like to put a question to you in relation to the two

 6     orders that were shown to you by the Defence of Mr. Bruno Stojic.  And

 7     you said, in relation to them, that these were not supposed to be orders,

 8     because you did not have the authority to pass orders.

 9             Now, my question --

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do ask your question,

11     Ms. Alaburic, but I'll say straight away that I have a problem as to the

12     subtle distinction you make between the chain of command and the chain of

13     subordination.  For me, it boils down to the same thing; maybe not for

14     you.  So do try to show us the difference, because right now I can't see

15     any difference at all.

16             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, in

17     principle I fully agree with you, and I believe that this is one and the

18     same concept.  However, the point is that the terms "order" and "chain of

19     command" are used as "terminus technicus" for the military, for armies,

20     and as a rule this same concept is not used for companies, civilian

21     governments, and any other civilian institution.  As for civilian

22     institutions, there is usually hierarchy or subordination.  In essence,

23     it's one and the same thing.  I do not wish to mislead the witness in any

24     way by using the words "order" or "chain of command," and then have him

25     provide answers.  I would like to speak about subordination, regardless

Page 5576

 1     of the actual term that we are going to use.

 2        Q.   So, Witness, I would be interested in the essence of the matter

 3     with regard to these two documents that are entitled "Order."  My

 4     question is:  Who is authorised, in your view, to pass decisions about

 5     matters regulated by these two documents that are called "Orders"?

 6        A.   I don't understand the question.  I'll try.  I don't know whether

 7     we're --

 8        Q.   Let me tell you.  The document numbers are 2D 278.  That is what

 9     the Bruno Stojic Defence showed you.  The next document is 2D 412

10     [Realtime transcript read in error "714"].  This document that I

11     mentioned as the second document is Mr. Bagaric's order.

12        A.   Could I please see that?  Could you please be so kind as to make

13     it possible for me to see it?

14        Q.   This other document contains the witness's name, so shall we move

15     into closed session, if necessary, or --

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Private session, please,

17     Mr. Registrar.

18             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I correct the number of the other

19     document, the second document, 2D 412, 412.  We have the first document

20     now.

21                           [Private session]

22     (redacted)

23     (redacted)

24     (redacted)

25     (redacted)

Page 5577











11 Page 37577 redacted. Private session.















Page 5578

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

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14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

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17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

22             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Witness, to the best of your knowledge, does this chart

24     correspond to the organisation of the Health Sector in the Defence

25     Department?

Page 5579

 1        A.   As far as I can remember, yes.

 2        Q.   On this chart, we do not see that the Main Staff of the HVO would

 3     have any function in terms of organising the Health Sector in the Defence

 4     Department.  To the best of your knowledge, was that actually the case?

 5        A.   The Main Staff -- the Main Staff is the highest military

 6     institution.  Military districts are under -- it's all four military

 7     districts, and in military districts there are units, specifically

 8     brigades.  The Main Staff is the superior of the military district.  The

 9     military district is superior to brigades, and brigades are superior to

10     battalions, for instance, and so on.

11        Q.   Fine.  Now, in the organisation of the Health Service, why is

12     there no Main Staff involved?  Do you have an explanation for this?

13        A.   Well, this is what is considered, that the military district has

14     a medical chief -- chief medical officer, so then it is the chief that

15     informs the brigades, and then within the brigades there are battalions

16     where there is a medical service, so there is the system of

17     subordination.  Yes, please go ahead.

18        Q.   All right.  Does that mean, for example, General Petkovic, as

19     chief of the Main Staff, can he establish that, say, the level of

20     chlorine in water is not right, and then through his chain of

21     subordination, he is going to order certain measures in relation to that?

22        A.   Well, it seems to be ridiculous to mention a general to be able

23     to do that, but he can.  Anyway male nurse or orderly at company level

24     can do that and must do that.  So not only at company level, but also at

25     squad level.  Also, the chief medical officer of a brigade.  And they

Page 5580

 1     will inform the military district, and through the system of

 2     subordination and singleness of command, the Main Staff would have to be

 3     informed, and then they are going to seek assistance from, say,

 4     specifically the Preventive Medicine Protection people, specifically.

 5             I don't know whether you understand me, whether I'm clear,

 6     because I spoke in military terms.

 7        Q.   You are clear.  Tell me, these health-related issues, were they

 8     part of the work of the chief of the Main Staff?

 9        A.   As far as the medical corps is concerned?

10        Q.   Everything, everything.  Everything, everything that you said;

11     war hospitals, the Medical Service, everything that was within the Health

12     Sector.  Was all this work within the purview of the head of the Defence

13     Department or of the chief of the Main Staff?

14        A.   The Defence Department has a Health Sector that is a professional

15     consultative organ, so they write instructions through --

16        Q.   We know all of that.

17        A.   Well, I don't really know what you're interested in.

18        Q.   I'm waiting for the transcript.

19             Now, I would like to have you tell us specifically whether

20     health-related issues were within the purview of the chief of the

21     Main Staff or the head of the Defence Department.  If you can answer,

22     please answer.  If you cannot tell us, you cannot.

23        A.   I think I can answer that we are there to provide a service, just

24     like we have to react in a certain way so as to prevent an epidemic, just

25     as quartermasters have to --

Page 5581

 1        Q.   Witness, I'm not asking you about the nature of the service.  I'm

 2     asking you whether this is within the line of work of the head of the

 3     Defence Department or the chief of Main Staff.  It's very simple, it's

 4     either one or the other, and if you don't know, tell us that you don't

 5     know.  You are free to do that.

 6             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] The witness is evading an answer

 7     to this question, and I have the right to insist because the answer is

 8     either one or the other.

 9             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I do apologise to my colleague.

10     That is not my impress, that he is evading an answer.  He's simply being

11     interrupted.  I believe that the witness has to be allowed to speak.

12     I think it's obvious that he is not evading an answer.

13             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Witness, all subsequent things about the nature of the service

15     and things like that, we can deal with all of that later.  I'm asking you

16     very clearly now, would you define whether certain work is within the

17     line of work of the head of the Defence Department or the chief of the

18     Main Staff?  It cannot be both.

19        A.   Madam, both the Medical Service --

20        Q.   Oh, both, fine.  Let us move on.

21             MR. KHAN:  We're going at far too fast a pace to make head or

22     tail of the testimony this witness has given, and I would ask my learned

23     friend, who has primary responsibility for conducting a coherent

24     cross-examination, to ensure there is at least a modicum of space between

25     the question and the answer.  Otherwise, it's very difficult to

Page 5582

 1     understand what on earth is being said.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, your question,

 3     answered by saying "one and the other," and then you put the question to

 4     him straight away.  In the interest of all and everyone, I think it would

 5     be better for the witness to clarify.

 6             Witness, what did you want to say?

 7             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm going to put

 8     questions in relation to that.  I -- for the time being, what the witness

 9     said is sufficient, he said, "Both," and now I'm going to follow that

10     line of questioning.  I just want to have brief answers, because my

11     question are such that there is no need really to go into great detail.

12        Q.   Witness, now I'm going to give you an opportunity to clarify.

13     The document is P 586.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour, please.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness, I have the

16     organisation chart before me, and I was wondering the following:  You

17     will, I am sure, be able to help me.  Now, as far as operational zones

18     are concerned, there is a medical corps.  At the brigade level, there are

19     also doctors.  At the level of the battalion, there seem to be doctors

20     also.  However, if you reach the level of a platoon or a group, there may

21     be people who carry the stretchers, or nurses, or medical staff.  What I

22     would like to know is this:  You might not be able to answer my question,

23     but if you can, please answer my question.  When there is a military

24     operation in the field, when this military operation is seemingly under

25     the command of the operational zone, and when we are dealing with groups

Page 5583

 1     and companies that are about to be engaged, is it customary to have a

 2     doctor on board or is there no doctor at all?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The lower the unit, the lower the

 4     medical assistance.  That is called "form of medical assistance."  See

 5     here at squad level or at company level, this probably came a lot later.

 6     This is not the way it was at the very beginning, because there wasn't

 7     enough trained personnel.  So there are different forms and volumes of

 8     medical assistance.  There is a nurse at the level of squad or beforehand

 9     at company level.  This person can do only very elementary work.  At

10     battalion level, there is either a medical technician or a doctor, a

11     physician.  At the level of the brigade, there has to be a physician.  So

12     where there is a GP, that is general medical assistance.  When there is a

13     specialist, a surgeon or the like, this is specialised medical

14     assistance.  So what would the logical conclusion be?  The lower ranking

15     the unit, the people involved in this line of work have less professional

16     knowledge and are of lesser quality.

17             However, I have to mention that in hospitals, there are

18     specialists, surgeons who admit patients from the front-line, or

19     specialists in internal medicine, say if somebody has a heart attack or

20     whatever, so the conclusion would be the lower ranking the unit, the

21     lower level of medical assistance provided.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let me streamline

23     my question and you will understand why.  I shall assume that there are

24     two groups, the military police and the professional units.  When the

25     military police -- we've seen documents which recount a number of people

Page 5584

 1     killed and injured.  If the military police is on the front-line when

 2     there is a combat operation, as far as you know, along with them is there

 3     a doctor, do you think?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It depended on the occasion

 5     involved.  Specifically in Mostar, the military police had Dr. Sahirlic

 6     [phoen] who is a renowned neurologist and an ethnic Muslim.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sorry.  Some brigades, because

 9     people fled -- well, I remember, people told me at the staff that guards

10     from the Republic of Croatia returned physicians who fled from these

11     parts.  When there were less physicians, then they could go to battalion

12     level too.  However, at battalion level, usually there's a medical

13     technician.  There is a physician in modern armies, like NATO armies.  We

14     did the best we could.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What about the professional

16     units?  If you know what they are, fine.  If you don't, then let's skip

17     the question.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean specifically down there in

19     Herzegovina, in Herceg-Bosna; is that what you're asking, I mean, or are

20     you asking me about American units or whatever?

21             So down there where we are, as for professional units, physicians

22     came who were given a rank and pay, and then there are physicians who

23     stayed on working.  For instance, I was made an offer to stay on.  I

24     refused.  I'm a specialist.  I had a Master's degree in Medical Sciences,

25     and I returned to the hospital.  So professional units do have their

Page 5585

 1     medical personnel.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 3             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Witness, I'd now like to talk about organs at the level of the

 5     whole of Herceg-Bosna, so let's forget the operation zones for a moment,

 6     brigades, units, and so on.  Let's look at document P 586.  It refers to

 7     the Defence Department and a decision passed by Mate Boban as the

 8     president of the HZ-HB.

 9        A.   I'm -- the document is P 586, and it's the first document, but

10     I'm not familiar with the document at all.

11        Q.   Well, you can see -- look through it, and it is about the sectors

12     within the Defence Department and the Main Staff as an organisational

13     unit.

14             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise, but the witness's

15     answer was not recorded.  I think it is now, yes.  The witness said that

16     the document is not one he's at all familiar with.  Yes, it has been

17     properly recorded now.

18             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Witness, we have here the different sectors, and we're going to

20     look at the Health Sector.  So look at page 2.7.  It says the assistant

21     head for health is responsible for the Health Sector, and the composition

22     of which is the following three services.  Is that how it was?

23        A.   What period are we talking about?  I don't know when this

24     occurred.

25        Q.   This was in force until the end of 1993, and it is a basic

Page 5586

 1     decision on the establishment of the Defence Department.  The 17th of

 2     October, 1992?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And it was enforced throughout?

 5        A.   Now, if this is the 17th of October, 1992, if that's the date,

 6     then that was the period where, to the best of my recollections, the main

 7     medical staff existed, the Main Medical Corps HQ that was located in

 8     Tomislavgrad.

 9        Q.   Is that what is referred to under item 1, the medical staff?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Para 7.1 is "Medical Staff," as it says?

12        A.   As far as I remember, this could relate to the period when the

13     Defence Department was formed.

14        Q.   Witness, we're talking about October.  The Defence Department was

15     formed much earlier on.

16        A.   All right, then, yes.

17        Q.   Now, in this decision, we cannot see that in the Main Staff of

18     the HVO, there was any kind of health service, or sanitary service, or

19     anything like that.  Now, tell me, do you know that within the

20     Main Staff, there was no doctor, or health worker, or anybody dealing

21     with the topics that the Health Sector would deal with in the Defence

22     Department?

23        A.   I think the answer is "yes."

24        Q.   I'm not going to ask you about any of the details in this

25     decision, which is a very important one as far as these proceedings are

Page 5587

 1     concerned, but I would like to ask you something about Chapter 14, where

 2     it says that the internal organisation the department, the command and

 3     control of the internal department's internal organisations, units, and

 4     other relations shall be determined by the head of the department with

 5     the approval of the president of the HZ-HB.  Tell us now, Witness, based

 6     on your experience, is that true, that the organisation department and --

 7     that it was the head of the Defence Department, with Mate Boban's

 8     knowledge, did this?

 9        A.   I don't know.

10        Q.   Look at the next, well, not document, but -- yes, the number of

11     the document is 2D 567.  That's the next document I'd like us to look at,

12     2D 567.  And look at point 5 --

13             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I do apologise to my colleague.  I

14     let the witness answer, but I wanted to say that if the witness was

15     unfamiliar with the organisation and establishment and that if there were

16     no questions during the examination-in-chief, then -- well, I wanted to

17     let the witness say that he didn't know anything about this.  So I'd like

18     to know what this cross-examination is based on, because it was not

19     something raised in examination-in-chief, and the witness says he knows

20     nothing about it.  So I think we should know what we're basing our

21     cross-examination on.  I was just -- I just asked the witness about the

22     sector that he was working in.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, this would not

24     happen if the cross-examination were not limited to examination-in-chief,

25     but here everything goes all over the place, so this is what happens.

Page 5588

 1             Ms. Alaburic.

 2             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no, I don't think

 3     you're right, because my question - the questions I'm going to ask now -

 4     relates to the right to appoint and dismiss.  The right to appoint and

 5     dismiss staff in the health service, in military matters, is something

 6     that has to do with the topic of subordination and the reporting chain;

 7     and if we want to use the military term, the chain of command.  So I

 8     would like to refer to the witness's answers recorded on page 21 of the

 9     transcript.

10             Now, as far as showing documents, which the witness says he's

11     unfamiliar with, I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that the

12     Defence of Bruno Stojic, in the proofing sessions of this witness, used

13     document P 2477, which is a decision on the internal establishment of the

14     Defence Department, dated May 1993, and in this portion, the document

15     that I am showing to the witness, the document is identical, so this

16     document could be familiar to the witness, especially --

17             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I'd like to say, for the witness and

18     for the Judges, that the witness has not looked at document P 2477, but

19     as the witness has said that he does not know anything about

20     establishment and organisation, then that's it, and he's said that having

21     taken the solemn declaration.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers kindly speak one at a time.

23     Thank you.  The speakers are overlapping, and it is not possible to

24     translate.

25             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Let me repeat.

Page 5589

 1             The document I mentioned a moment ago, in the last chart that was

 2     handed out to everybody in this courtroom, is contained there, and if it

 3     is on the list and if we knew that the witness would not be using it,

 4     then the question arises as to whether the other Defence teams and

 5     parties in these proceedings are overburdened by a surplus of material.

 6             But let us look at point 5 of this document, 2D 567.

 7        Q.   Witness, this document talks about authorisation and who is

 8     authorised to appoint individual members of the Medical Corps.  And let's

 9     look at the Health Sector, the head for dealing with the wounded.

10        A.   Madam, could you tell me what page you're referring to?

11        Q.   Page 5.3.

12        A.   You mean the Health Sector?

13        Q.   Yes.  And what we're interested in now is the head of the medical

14     corps of the brigade and the head of the Control and Inspection Service,

15     and they are appointed by the head of the Defence Department at a

16     proposal -- on the basis of a proposal from the health of the -- of the

17     head of the Health Department, and all the other operatives are deployed

18     by the head of the Health Section.

19             Tell us, please, Witness, to the best of your knowledge, who

20     appointed the heads of the medical corps in the brigades, doctors in the

21     battalions, medical technicians in the company, and generally the health

22     staff in the individual military units?

23        A.   I really don't know.  I've already said that.  I said who signed

24     my decision, but I'm looking at this document for the first time, and

25     even theoretically I could not have had access to a document like this.

Page 5590

 1        Q.   All right.  One more question.  If the head of the medical corps

 2     of a brigade didn't do his work properly, who could replace him?  To whom

 3     was he responsible for the professional carrying out of his duties?

 4        A.   In my opinion, the military commander of the brigade would be the

 5     person who could dismiss him.  That would be the only person.

 6        Q.   Why do you think so?

 7        A.   Because he is within the system of subordination, he is

 8     subordinated to him.  Now, whether his work is good or not, he could

 9     learn about that through us.  And, please, would you respect this?  I am

10     speaking as an expert in preventive medicine.  That's what I can talk

11     about and discuss.  I don't know anything about anything else, and I'm

12     too old to be speaking just up in the air.

13        Q.   Well, in reading this decision, why can't you say who appoints

14     them?

15        A.   Well, I know who appointed me.

16        Q.   No.  Who appoints the head of the medical corps of a brigade?

17     And we've just read out a document where it says who could replace that

18     same man, dismiss him, and so how come you don't know this, where you

19     know other things in that way?

20        A.   This is written in an absolutely non-military fashion, and as a

21     former soldier myself, I know that within the system of subordination,

22     the superior is responsible.

23        Q.   Tell us, with respect to your knowledge of the system of

24     subordination, somebody -- the person who has the right to appoint people

25     and dismiss them, are they subordinated to those people that they dismiss

Page 5591

 1     and appoint?

 2        A.   [No interpretation]

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What about Defence counsel of

 4     Mr. Coric?

 5             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I don't have any

 6     questions, Your Honours.

 7             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I wish to draw your attention to

 8     the fact that the witness's answer was in the affirmative and that his

 9     answer was not recorded.

10        Q.   So, Witness, could you repeat what your answer to my question

11     was?

12        A.   Could you repeat your question?

13        Q.   You remember your last answer.

14        A.   Could you repeat that, madam?  I really am -- I'm under stress

15     here.  I'm not sure I -- Ms. Alaburic, as a doctor, I'm a university

16     professor.  After my first testimony, my blood pressure has been raised,

17     so I -- with all due respect to you, I am so stressed here, could you

18     please speak slowly, tell me what you mean so I can understand you,

19     because I can't follow everything.

20             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  And wait until the translation is written down,

21     because I have seen that you were talking, Ms. Alaburic, but the witness

22     was still on.  And I gave you, Counsel, a look at one time, at page 104,

23     lines 9 to 12, you see what gibberish results from that speed.  It's

24     really amazing how resistant this more of speed is.  We are raising it

25     almost every day, at least every week, and I understand that it's a

Page 5592

 1     matter of temperament, and I'm not being angry, and least of all I want

 2     to really reproach, but it just has to be repeated and it will be

 3     repeated throughout if it does not change.  I'm sorry.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, put your question

 5     again, because the witness wanted to answer, but he didn't remember the

 6     question.  So put your question again.

 7             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I really do apologise, and

 8     I'll try and be good in future.

 9        Q.   Witness, let your repeat your -- my question, and you had a

10     one-word answer.  My question was this:  To the best of your knowledge

11     about the relations of subordination, a person who has the authority to

12     appoint and dismiss somebody of duty is the person who is superior to the

13     person to whom -- the person who they appoint or dismiss?

14        A.   No, the reverse.  You can't have a company commander dismiss a

15     battalion commander.  The commander of a battalion can replace somebody

16     lower down.

17        Q.   Let's take it this way:  The director of a company and the

18     director of a sector, let's take them, the managers of these two.  So my

19     question is one of principle.  I'm not asking you about the army.  I'm

20     asking you a question of principle.  A person who is authorised to

21     appoint and dismiss somebody is the same person who is superior to the

22     person whom they appoint and dismiss?

23        A.   Yes.  But as a former soldier, and allow me to continue, you are

24     right.  However, this is written in a way that is not how the military

25     would write it.  Now, I had an MA at the time.  I was a

Page 5593

 1     lieutenant-colonel.  I come to the brigade commander, Stolar [phoen], who

 2     just sends me back and stops me from speaking.  I don't know who wrote

 3     this, this is the first time that I see this document, but I consider

 4     that it is absolutely incommensurate to a military document.  I don't

 5     think documents of this kind should be written at all and passed, because

 6     the commander of a military district, for example, was the man who was a

 7     tinsmith before the war, and on one occasion he put a doctor up at the

 8     front-line in a trench.  That is completely illogical.  And you know the

 9     answer that I was given?  "You commie," that's what they said, that's all

10     they had to say.

11             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your answers, and

12     thank you for coming to The Hague.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What about Mr. Pusic's Defence

14     counsel?

15             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't have any questions for

16     this witness, but I would like to say for the record that when it comes

17     to time, it seems that we have an exponential value.  If we don't use our

18     time for cross-examination, then we give it back to the Court.  I do not

19     agree to what is -- I don't condone what is happening between the Defence

20     teams.  I don't wish to benefit any other team in relation to the

21     questions being raised here, so the time we don't use for ourselves, we

22     give back to the Court.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Ibrisimovic.

24     Clearly, if you hand over your time to the Bench, well, then we will know

25     how to use it, but you have to allow me to do this.

Page 5594

 1             Now, what about Mr. Prlic's Defence counsel?

 2             MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I've already said that the

 3     Defence of Dr. Prlic has no questions for this witness.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 5             It is just about 7.00.  Tomorrow, the cross-examination of the

 6     Prosecution will continue.  Let me remind the people present that the

 7     Prosecution will have two hours.  The Bench may put questions tomorrow,

 8     since we don't have that much time, and maybe Ms. Nozica will have some

 9     redirect.  In any case, the next witness will only be coming on

10     Wednesday.

11             Witness, you are now a witness of the Court, as I told you at the

12     beginning of this hearing.  You can relax.  You said that you had been

13     stressed last time.  Let me tell you that the Judges are stressed every

14     day.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I respect that, yes.

16     I do understand that, but may I be able -- may I be allowed to say, as a

17     doctor, your position is one; my position is another.  But I do recognise

18     that you are under great stress, because justice is always something that

19     involves stress.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we shall meet again tomorrow

21     at 9.00.  Thank you.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note:  "This would not happen if

23     the cross-examination were limited to examination-in-chief.  Please

24     record it this way.  Thank you."

25                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

Page 5595

 1                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day of March,

 2                           2009, at 9.00 a.m.