1 Tuesday, 3 March 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you kindly call
7 the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
9 everyone in and around the courtroom.
10 This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic
11 et al.
12 Thank you, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.
14 Today is Tuesday, the 3rd of March, 2009. I would like to greet
15 Mr. Stojic, Mr. Praljak, Mr. Pusic, as well as all the attorneys, and to
16 Mr. Karnavas, who's back again today, all the representatives of the OTP,
17 and the witness, who will answer the questions of the Prosecutor in a few
18 moments as part of the cross-examination.
19 Before that, I need to turn to the Registrar, because we need an
20 IC number, please.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours.
22 6D has submitted a list of objections to documents tendered by
23 the Prosecution through Witness Ante Kvesic. This document shall be
24 given Exhibit IC 936.
25 Thank you, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.
2 Witness, insofar as the Bench controls examination and
3 cross-examination, I would like to tell you that we want this to run as
4 smoothly as possible, and you were a little bit emotional yesterday. So
5 you are going to be put questions by the Prosecutor as part of the
6 cross-examination. This is usually a rather difficult time, because
7 rests on the Prosecution the burden of proof. The Prosecutor may put
8 leading questions to you and may challenge your credibility, so this can
9 be a difficult moment for you. This is something I wanted to tell you so
10 that you're not taken by surprise.
11 In addition, since you belong to the medical profession, wait
12 before you answer, breathe heavily if you need to, take in your breath if
13 you need to. I know that these can be very challenging and difficult
15 This is what I wanted to tell you. I hope you had a good rest
16 last night, and I hope you are able to start this cross-examination in
17 the best conditions.
18 I would like to greet you once again, and, Prosecutor, you have
19 the floor now.
20 MR. LAWS
21 those in around the courtroom.
22 WITNESS: WITNESS 2D-AB [Resumed]
23 [The witness answered through interpreter]
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Laws:
25 Q. And good morning to you, sir. I want to ask you about what you
1 saw in the HVO detention camps that you visited. All right?
2 Yesterday --
3 A. I do apologise, but what I saw -- yes, right.
4 Q. What you saw, and what you heard there, and what you learnt about
5 the HVO detention camps. All right?
6 A. Can I ask you a question? The war is full of information,
7 misinformation, and what you hear doesn't mean that that was what
8 actually happened, so you can't talk about it unless you check it out.
9 Only then is your testimony valid and has any specific weight, because if
10 I were to tell you everything that I had heard about, well, I mean, I'd
11 be here for 500 years.
12 Q. We don't want that, sir, so we'll stick --
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, answer the questions
14 put to you by the Prosecutor. The Bench will assess the probative value
15 of your answers to the questions that are put to you.
16 Mr. Laws, you have the floor.
17 MR. LAWS
18 Q. When you gave evidence to this Court in the Tuta Stela case, you
19 were asked a question by counsel representing one of the defendants, you
20 were asked if you could please tell the Court everything that you knew
21 about the Heliodrom, all right, and you replied that the Heliodrom was,
22 and I'm going to quote your words exactly:
23 "The Heliodrom was for me, personally, a very unpleasant
25 All right? And that's right, isn't it, it was a very unpleasant
1 experience for you to go into the Heliodrom?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And we saw yesterday that you became quite upset when you were
4 asked to remember the things that you had seen both there and elsewhere;
5 is that also right?
6 A. Yes. And can I ask you a question now?
7 Q. Well, that's not really how it works here, sir, no.
8 Just going back to what we have just been talking about, you
9 found it upsetting to recall what you saw, and I want, if I can, to try
10 to understand why that might be. All right? And I want to try, if
11 I can, to do that without upsetting you unnecessarily, but I need to ask
12 you what you saw and what it was like in those places. You understand
14 A. Absolutely.
15 Q. Thank you. Can we start, please, with your first visit to the
16 Heliodrom, which you told the Court yesterday took place in mid-May of
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In fact, I think I'm right in saying that we can do better than
20 that; that you told the Trial Chamber in Tuta Stela that you'd gone into
21 the Heliodrom on the 11th and 12th of May of 1993?
22 A. Yes, the middle of May.
23 Q. Thank you. You had been asked to go there because you had been
24 told that a large number of people had been detained?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you had been asked to go there to help to ensure that their
2 detention didn't involve the outbreak of epidemics; yeah?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When you got there, you saw that there were indeed a very large
5 number of people who had just been detained?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. People from Mostar?
8 A. I knew some of them.
9 Q. You knew some --
10 A. But the majority, I did not know.
11 Q. Of course, you would only know a proportion, but people from
12 Mostar who were suddenly in a detention centre?
13 A. Yes, and I have to add something to that. Your Honours, as a
14 doctor myself, I know people who come to hospital, so my -- the circle of
15 people that I know is far greater and doesn't only relate to Mostar, and
16 it's quite logical that I know the people of Mostar better because I was
17 born there and lived there, but I don't want you to understand that I
18 know only people from Mostar. I know people whom I treated, I know their
19 families, friends, so my circle of acquaintances is much, much larger.
20 Q. So you recognised more people than the average citizen might have
21 recognised in the Heliodrom on the 11th and the 12th of May; is that
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you ask them what was going on and why they were there?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did they tell you?
2 A. Many of them did not know. Well, if I was there yesterday -- or,
3 rather, if I was stressed yesterday, I was under even greater stress
4 before, so you can imagine what the people who were there felt like.
5 Q. Well, you're comparing your stress yesterday, giving evidence
6 here, to the stress of the people who were imprisoned and didn't know the
7 reason on the 11th and 12th of May; is that what we're to understand,
9 A. What you need to understand is this: That as far as I'm
10 concerned, stress -- let me give you an example. I don't remember the
11 link at all when I was here and when my distinguished counsel asked --
12 when I asked her what the time was, she said, "February." And I said,
13 "Ms. Nozica, it can't have been February, because it was warm, the
14 weather was warm." So I tried to push that out of my mind. But you
15 cannot conclude that my stress was equal to their stress. Their stress
16 was enormous, much greater than my own stress. Now, if I, as a human
17 being, as a man of such and such an age, as an individual with a great
18 deal of education, as somebody who has travelled the world, experienced
19 stress, then I can only imagine how much greater their stress was, and
20 that it triggered a stress reaction where a large number of people cannot
21 remember things. But I was quite definite and certain that they weren't
22 there of their own free will.
23 Q. Well, thank you. I think we're not going to disagree about that
24 at all, and I'm going to ask you, if you can, to focus on the questions.
25 I know it's difficult. We accept that you've travelled the world and
1 that you're a very well-educated man. We take that for granted. All
2 right? I'm not asking you about your autobiography at the moment. I'm
3 asking you about conditions in the Heliodrom, and I understand you to be
4 saying that the people that you saw on the 11th and 12th of May were
5 unaware, many of them, why they were there, and as a result they were
6 highly distressed. Do I have that position accurately?
7 A. Yes, absolutely, you've understood that very well.
8 MR. LAWS
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a follow-up
10 question for you.
11 I listened to the questions of the Prosecutor very carefully, and
12 you have answered this question. You said that those people who were
13 there did not know why they had been detained, and it's very easy to
14 visualise the situation.
15 When you left the Heliodrom, did you tell your superiors, "I am
16 going to the prison, I am going to the Heliodrom. I have met people whom
17 I knew, and these people didn't know why they had been detained." Did
18 you tell that to your superiors, and if you did, what did they then tell
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, of course I did tell
21 them, and that was my duty. It was my duty to tell them. And when I
22 went down there, as you've already heard -- well, Dr. Bagaric told me to
23 go down there. And as far as I was concerned, as an individual dealing
24 with preventive medicine, any meeting, or rally, or collection of people
25 generally, refugees, displaced persons, or whatever, are places where
1 I -- where my duty would take me. But when I saw the situation there, I
2 understood, as a doctor, that people were under stress, that they were
3 afraid, and that many of them who knew me, and I was in uniform at the
4 time, they saw me as being someone from the other side, not as a doctor.
5 And I don't hold that against them. Later on, that changed, and I did go
6 up there, and I told them straight away: "As far as I'm concerned, I see
7 that as a prison. There are too many people in one place. We have to do
8 something about it because infectious diseases will break out." And when
9 I asked them why they were there - that was your question, was it not,
10 Your Honour? - then the answer that I was given, roughly, was that they
11 were there for security reasons, safety reasons.
12 And if you'll allow me to say, Your Honour, on the 9th of
13 September -- on the 9th of May, 1992, when that unfortunate conflict
14 began, I was in my flat. I didn't know about the conflict at all,
15 although I was a member, as you know, of the staff, and I came to the new
16 hospital which is at a distance of several kilometres. I went there by
17 car. I was in a police car, because the police station is across the
18 road from me and there was shooting all over the place. And I was told
19 that it was for these reasons, because the war had begun, because we had
20 been attacked by the Muslim armed forces, and that's why they were there,
21 for those reasons. So that's what I knew.
22 And as a former soldier, myself, or, rather, as a member of the
23 army, there might have been another example, like the 5th Column, but I
24 wasn't interested in that, as a doctor. All I was interested in was to
25 see what we could do to prevent an epidemic from breaking out.
1 So I go back to yesterday, and, please, I was the chief of the
2 Service for Preventive Medicine, that's all. All I was interested in was
3 how to prevent and stop infectious diseases from breaking out, or,
4 rather, if they did occur sporadically, to prevent them from becoming an
5 epidemic, so that was my prime concern. And I consider that in that
6 aspect -- or, rather, that was the work that I had to do, and I think
7 that my work had a humanitarian character in doing that.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 Mr. Laws.
10 MR. LAWS
11 Q. Sir, that, if you'll forgive me for saying so, was a very long
12 answer. The question that you had been asked by the President of this
13 Trial Chamber was whether you told your superiors, and I think you
14 started by saying, yes, you told Dr. Bagaric what was going on at the
15 Heliodrom. Yes?
16 A. Well, listen, I have to explain the conditions so that Their
17 Honours can understand, because I'm in the hands of justice here.
18 Q. [Previous translation continues]... for a moment. We are going
19 to look at the conditions, I assure you, but I want to stick with one
20 question at a time and then we won't, I hope, become confused.
21 You were asked a question, and it's a question that I want to
22 repeat and give you a third opportunity to answer. Who did you tell?
23 You've said Dr. Bagaric. Who else did you tell about what you'd seen in
24 the Heliodrom that day?
25 A. I was in the Sector for Health, so the people who were in the
1 Health Sector. Yes, the Health Sector.
2 Q. So the people in the Health Sector of the Department of Defence?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. In later visits to the Heliodrom, did you also see
5 that there was a wide age range of detainees?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. If you look with me, please, at a document in the bundle in front
8 of you that's labelled P 05328, P 05328.
9 Perhaps if the usher might be prepared to lend some assistance.
10 I think you have it. Thank you.
11 A. Yes, I've found it.
12 Q. This is a document that is dated the 23rd of September of 1993,
13 and we can see that it's a list of detainees who were brought in to the
14 Heliodrom on the 21st of September of 1993. Can you see that?
15 A. Yes, I can.
16 Q. And we know, sir, that you went into the Heliodrom on the 30th of
17 September, some nine days after these detainees are recorded as having
18 arrived. All right?
19 A. Well, if you have a document stating that, then that is probably
20 the case.
21 Q. Well, we do. It's one of your reports, and we'll look at it in
22 due course, but it's dated the 30th of September. That's the day that
23 you went into the Heliodrom. All right?
24 If we just look at this list together, at number 5 we have a name
25 and a date of birth of the 2nd of April of 1980. Can you see that?
1 A. Yes, I can.
2 Q. So that individual would have been, I think, 13 in 1993. Is that
4 A. Yes. But, please --
5 Q. Just bear with me for a moment, and I assure you, I'll give you a
6 chance to say what you want to say.
7 If you turn the page and look at the last name, number 36,
8 apparently born on the 5th of July of 1922, can you see that?
9 A. Yes, I can.
10 Q. That individual would have been 71 at the time that you went into
11 the Heliodrom on the 30th of September; all right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So just to try to get a picture of what you were experiencing in
14 the Heliodrom, in terms of the people who were there, before we look at
15 the conditions, just the people who were there, they were people who were
16 as young as 13 and as old as 71; is that right? Was that your
18 A. Let me make myself understood. This list was written by
19 Mr. Stanko Bozic. I don't know him [as interpreted], but I'm quite sure
20 that I saw people of different ages. For example, under number 27, "Omer
21 (Osman) Terzic," you'll see later on that he was involved with the
22 medical corps to work as a technician in the infirmary. So I saw this
23 large span, age span, but I'm disgusted when I see that somebody was 13
24 years old. That is terrible, impossible, but I didn't see anybody like
25 that. Had I seen somebody of that age, I would have recorded it straight
1 away and informed people straight away, because I'm a father myself and
2 know what that means.
3 Q. All right. I think the translation that I heard was that you
4 didn't know Stanko Bozic, but in fact you dealt with Stanko Bozic --
5 A. No, no, no. I did know him, I knew him very well, sir. I knew
6 him very well, Mr. Prosecutor, but I hadn't received -- I didn't receive
7 this list. I don't know whom this list is addressed to; not to me. The
8 Health Sector, maybe, but not to me.
9 Q. It may just be an error in the translation. Our translation
11 "This list was written by Mr. Stanko Bozic. I don't know him,
12 but I'm quite sure ..."
13 I just wanted to clarify that. You knew who Stanko Bozic was,
14 didn't you?
15 A. Sir, Mr. Prosecutor, in preparing this case, you probably
16 noticed, and I spoke about this yesterday and you were sitting down, so
17 you could have heard me say that the plan for my work was always uniform,
18 always the same, and that in the first part it would say who was present.
19 And you could have noticed that Mr. Bozic was always recorded as being
20 present, and it would have been a terrible lie to say that I did not know
21 the man, and I contacted him. Every time when I arrived at that
22 locality, I tried to find Mr. Bozic.
23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes that she heard the
24 witness say, "No," so I was mistaken. Thank you.
25 MR. LAWS
1 Q. You and I are not disagreeing. It was a mistake that happened in
2 the translation. There's nothing at all for you to worry about. I
3 wanted to clarify it so that the record is clear, because you knew Stanko
4 Bozic, and we both agreed about that. All right?
5 A. [In English] Okay.
6 Q. Thank you. Would you then turn, please, with me to another
7 report that we have, not written by you, but dealing with two of the same
8 detention centres.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, before we move on to
10 another document: We have understood that you were an officer of the
11 JNA. This is what you told us. Yesterday, I understood that you had
12 some understanding of military affairs. When we see this document,
13 there's no shadow of a doubt that you were not the addressee of this
14 document, but on seeing this document, you see "Central Military Prison,"
15 and you see the name of a young person who is 13. This is an issue, in
16 military terms.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, terrible, just terrible. A
18 13-year-old child can't be a soldier. "Mr. Hasan [indiscernible], Music,
19 71," he can't be a soldier. Theoretically, he can work somewhere,
20 answering a telephone, for example, but nothing more than that.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as the case of 71 is
22 concerned, some people are 71 and still very busy. Maybe it's not so
23 easy for a person who is 71. Some people at 71 are judges, even. So at
24 71, you still have quite a lot of energy and have enough energy. But a
25 13-year-old, well, that's not the same, and his name shouldn't have been
1 on there.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, certainly.
3 MR. LAWS
4 Q. The report I wanted to look at with you, sir, is -- in your
5 bundle, it's P 06729. I wonder if you'd find that for us, please. It's
6 further on in the bundle than the one you've just looked at, P 06729.
7 This is a report that we're going to look at --
8 A. What number did you say, 6?
9 Q. P 06729.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. This is a report that we're going to look at a little bit in the
12 course of the morning. It's a report prepared by the Security and
13 Information Service of the Military Police Sector in relation to the work
14 of Gabela and the Heliodrom Detention Centres. Can you see that report?
15 A. Yes, inspection and supervision, yes, for Gabela and Heliodrom.
16 Q. And we're still on the topic, sir, to assist you, we're still on
17 the topic of who was in the Heliodrom, all right, before we look at what
18 was happening to them, who was actually there. Do you follow my
20 A. Yes, I am following.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. But this -- how can I have anything to do with SIS? The SIS
23 followed me. As a former JNA officer, I was under SIS supervision,
24 surveillance, and I don't see what I have to do with this particular SIS,
25 because I was under surveillance by SIS because I was the persona non
1 grata for a long time.
2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Witness, it would be very helpful for the Court
3 if you would just answer the questions that are put to you and not go
4 into commentaries. The Prosecutor knows what he wants to elicit as
5 answers, and that's what the Court will hear. And you may feel that you
6 would like to talk lengthily about all kind of matters, but please
7 restrict yourself to answering the questions.
8 Thank you.
9 MR. LAWS
10 Q. Could you turn, please -- in the English, it's page 5 of this
11 report, and it's a paragraph which is headed "The accommodation of
12 prisoners of war."
13 A. I don't have page 5.
14 Q. In the English, it's page 5, and I think that in the B/C/S it's
15 headed "page 2" at the top, and it's a paragraph at the bottom of that
16 page which I think is headed "The accommodation of prisoners of war." Do
17 you have that, sir?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. Thank you. This is an inspection that takes place in November,
20 and I'm going to read you what this individual has recorded, and then I'm
21 going to ask you whether it fits in with your experience in the
22 Heliodrom. Do you follow me?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. "In the said facilities, there are 2.600 prisoners of war who are
25 of the same category as the prisoners of war in the previous shelter ..."
1 that's Gabela, we'll look at that in a moment, "... of the same category;
2 i.e., real prisoners of war have not been separated - members of the
3 BH Army have not been separated from civilians who have been brought 'for
4 various reasons.'"
5 And I think in both languages that's in inverted commas. All
6 right? Can you see that?
7 A. Yes, I can.
8 Q. And I want to stay on the topic of the people that you met both
9 in Heliodrom and in the other detention facilities. This report also
10 deals with who was in Gabela. All right? And if you turn back in the
11 report, it's the English page 3, and in the B/C/S it's the first page
12 with text on it before page 1, do you have that? That's it, back one.
13 A. "Command and control system in the shelter and security
15 Q. It's the very first page that has text on it, and it's a heading
16 "Situation of prisoners of war." Can you see that?
17 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
18 Q. I'm going to read to you, you follow with me in the B/C/S, if you
19 would, what it says:
20 "There are about 300 POWs in each of the said facilities. There
21 are currently 1.268 prisoners of war. All prisoners of war are persons
22 of Muslim nationality, male, and there are some of them - I've not been
23 able to establish the figure precisely - who are under 18 and some who
24 are above 60 years of age."
25 Can you see that?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. And if you turn the page, please, we'll read the next paragraph,
3 and then I'm going to pause and ask you if you can help us:
4 "In brief personal contacts with prisoners of war, the impression
5 is that many of them have been brought to the shelter from their homes,
6 street, or work-places, while the rest have been captured during combat
8 Do you see those observations by the author of this report?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You told the Judges yesterday that you, yourself, had sat with
11 the detainees in Gabela, that you had talked to them, and that you had
12 even shared their food. Did you form the same impression as the author
13 of this report about how they had come to be there?
14 A. More or less, yes.
15 Q. Thank you very much, sir. So people who had been, some of them,
16 taken from their homes, from the street, from their places of work, and
17 locked up?
18 A. Yes. Again, should I answer again? Yes, a part were arrested,
19 and as for these, I don't know if they were taken away for preventive
20 reasons from their homes, or from some other reasons, I'm not able to
22 Q. Just as --
23 A. But in any case --
24 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter did not hear the last word
25 the witness said.
1 MR. LAWS
2 Q. I think the interpreter wanted you to finish your sentence, and
3 I'm happy for you to do so, sir.
4 A. Very well. I'm sorry. I said as for those who were arrested in
5 combat, yes, that goes, but I was told that for some security reasons,
6 some people were brought in to that place, so this was for preventive
7 reasons and for reasons of potential retaliation. But regardless of
8 that, I condemned the act of taking people away from their home.
9 Q. You thought it was wrong at the time?
10 A. Yes, with one correction. If we're not talking about the people
11 who fired at me.
12 Q. Thank you. You met a range -- you, yourself, met a range of
13 different people in the various camps that you visited, didn't you,
14 people of different backgrounds, different walks of life?
15 A. Yes, but I would like to ask you to use the term "prison."
16 Q. We'll use the term "prison," of course, sir. In Dretelj, you met
17 a doctor. He gave evidence to this Trial Chamber. He had the pseudonym
18 DD, and he gave evidence that he had met you because he was discussing
19 his fear about a jaundice epidemic. Do you remember a conversation with
20 a doctor in Dretelj who was worried about jaundice?
21 A. First of all, I spoke with all the doctors. As for that doctor,
22 I don't know who that was.
23 Q. I'm not asking you about all the doctors at the moment. I'm
24 asking you about the doctor in Dretelj who was worried about a jaundice
25 epidemic. You don't remember him?
1 A. If I remember correctly, there were five doctors there, and I
2 spoke with all of them, so I don't know which one it was. But, sir,
3 I can tell you there was no jaundice. I said that yesterday, and thank
4 the Lord that in all the areas that I was in charge of, there was no
5 single epidemic of an infection disease. And I would have been glad to
6 hear someone say something like that, because that would mean that they
7 were helping me in my job.
8 Q. We're agreed there was no jaundice. That individual, DD, told
9 this Court that he was being fed on leftover food and that he lost 30
10 kilos in his body weight; a doctor, like you. Do you recall now meeting
11 somebody who was imprisoned and being fed badly so that they started to
12 lose weight?
13 A. Sir, I said yesterday that on the basis of the story not of this
14 colleague of mine, but that the average weight loss was ten and a half
15 kilos, according to what was said, I mean, we noted this yesterday, we
16 dealt with that topic.
17 Q. I'm asking you a very specific question, whether you recall
18 meeting this doctor who told this Court that he lost 30 kilos.
19 A. [In English] No.
20 Q. No, thank you. You met a dentist in Gabela. You noted in one of
21 your reports, and we can look at it if you wish, that the prisoner's
22 teeth were bad?
23 A. [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
24 Q. The prisoners had bad teeth, and there happened to be a dentist
25 locked up in Gabela, and you were suggesting that it might be an idea to
1 provide him with some dental equipment so that he could help to treat the
2 people with bad teeth; do you remember that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Bad teeth being a common side effect of malnutrition?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. When you're starving, you start to lose your teeth; that's right,
7 isn't it?
8 A. Sir, that means a deficiency in Vitamin C. A person can eat a
9 lot, but if the food is not of sufficient quality, then you can suffer
10 from scurvy. Why did sailors fall victim to scurvy? Because they had a
11 lack of Vitamin C. But let me say something else, there was no dentist's
12 chair in any of the barracks. No single HVO soldier had the opportunity
13 of being examined by a dentist. In the same way, in the town of Mostar
14 I'm speaking about the town of Mostar
15 working in the medical centre, and he didn't have any equipment.
16 Q. Witness BQ, who gave evidence in this case, told the Trial
17 Chamber that he lost all of his teeth as a result of the food or lack of
18 food that he received in Dretelj, and you saw people there with very bad
19 teeth, didn't you?
20 A. [No verbal response]
21 Q. Thank you. And you also saw, did you not, that there were women
22 detained in the Heliodrom?
23 MR. KARNAVAS: Excuse me, sir.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First let me answer.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: There was a "thank you." I don't know what he was
1 thanking the gentleman for, but the transcript does not indicate that
2 there was a response.
3 MR. LAWS
4 you, Mr. Karnavas.
5 Q. You nodded, and you're going to need to say, "Yes," if you want
6 to agree with the question.
7 A. No, no, I must answer that question, I must answer. This is not
8 a pantomime. You're asking me, and you are allowing me to nod my head,
9 but this is not something that I'm not permitting myself, mime. Anyway,
10 if you permit. If you have read, and I hope that you have read -- I
11 don't think that you have not read, and that you can see that in the
12 reports it is specifically clearly written that the food is sufficient in
13 quantity and quality. And it's sufficient, so -- the quantity was not
14 sufficient, so there wasn't a sufficient supply of vitamins. In any
15 case, it was an area affected by war, and if you read the reports, you
16 will see that the amount of humanitarian help was very small and that
17 both the refugees and the population was suffering from the same
19 Q. Well, you nod your head -- you're doing it now. Do it just as
20 you wish, but do answer the question with a "yes" or "no." Otherwise,
21 we'll get into that sort of confusion and Mr. Karnavas will have to help
23 I asked you the question whether you saw people in Gabela who had
24 bad teeth, all right, and is the short answer to that, "Yes"?
25 A. Yes, but I must say I saw the same thing with a lot of soldiers
1 who had come from the country and who did not have sufficient hygienic --
2 hygiene habits. You cannot compare a soldier from The Hague or a soldier
3 from the country. Those soldiers who come from the villages don't have a
4 habit of brushing their teeth and their hygiene habits are lacking.
5 Q. All right. So just to summarise, you mentioned yesterday that
6 the doctors helping the detainees in Heliodrom were themselves detainees;
7 is that right? You gave us the name yesterday, Mr. Hadzic, who --
8 Dr. Hadzic, I shall call him, who was one of the Muslim doctors detained
9 in Heliodrom; yes?
10 A. [No verbal response]
11 Q. I'm afraid you're nodding your head just very slightly there. Is
12 the answer, "Yes"?
13 A. Well, I would like to ask you -- I'm not -- I'm asking you not to
14 look at me nod my head, but to listen to my answer. I am just listening
15 and nodding my head, but I think that it was a major thing that I did
16 find Dr. Hadzic, who was a prisoner, and that I transferred him to the
17 medical staff. He was my friend and colleague from the Vales Sports
18 Club, and he no longer had the status of a prisoner. Quite the contrary,
19 Dr. Hadzic went to town with a medical vehicle, and he would bring back
20 medical supplies to the prison.
21 Q. All right. In these camps, you saw doctors, at least one
22 dentist, children, old people, and you knew that there were women; yes?
23 A. If you allow me. As far as women are concerned, I have to go
24 back to the first testimony. I perhaps said at the time, because I was
25 under stress, that I did not see -- for me, it's a crime that a child,
1 anyone under 18, or above 60 to be there. I did not see any women. I
2 believe that any kind of harming of the health or any kind of insinuation
3 about women, I mean, I heard, I went, I was taken where they were
4 supposed to be, but I didn't find any. But I did tell my superiors, if
5 there are any, we need to do everything to remove those people from
7 If you had read my reports, and you probably did, and I hope you
8 studied them carefully, that it says four medical commissions and other
9 commissions of -- so that people who are in vulnerable categories can be
11 Q. All right. You weren't in any doubt that there were women in
12 isolation? May I just finish this topic, and then I'll certainly give
14 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] No, no, no, colleague. I
15 would just like to object to a previous question very briefly.
16 I believe that the witness did not understand the question, and
17 I think that the Prosecutor would need to clarify and put it a bit
18 slower. We're jumping from one prison to another, and from what I have
19 been listening of the testimony of the witness and from my study of the
20 documents, I don't know how the Prosecutor can come to the plural, "Where
21 did you see women?" I think the Prosecutor would need to take each
22 prison case by case, "Did you see women in Heliodrom, in Gabela, in
23 Dretelj, in Ljubusko," for each of these cases. So I think now the
24 witness is quite confused and he doesn't know exactly which prison we are
25 talking about now. I think that this would be quite a useful thing to do
1 now, in the courtroom, to go from one prison to another.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, do try to be
3 more specific when you put the questions, "Were these women in the
4 Heliodrom, in Gabela, in Dretelj; according to you, where were they?"
5 MR. LAWS
6 make it clear I'm dealing with the topic of the people that this witness
7 saw in the camps, before we look at the conditions, P 06924?
8 Q. I have asked the question, you were aware that there were women
9 there; all right?
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into closed session,
11 because this is a document signed by the witness.
12 Please, Registrar.
13 MR. LAWS
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 37620-37642 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Counsel, Your Honour, for the record, we're back
24 in open session. Thank you, Your Honours.
25 MR. LAWS
1 bundle. It's a very long exhibit. It's a transcript of the evidence
2 that you gave in the Naletilic case in Tuta Stela. All right?
3 A. [In English] I don't have this paper.
4 Q. Yes, you do. That's it in front of you.
5 A. I don't have this paper, please. No. In Croatian language, I
6 don't have this paper, please.
7 Q. You don't have an interpretation of it. I'm going to read to you
8 a part of it. Everybody will follow. And if I read it incorrectly,
9 someone will put me right. All right?
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. If you turn to page 14698 in the top right-hand corner, please,
12 can you see there are page numbers in the top right-hand corner, "14698"?
13 A. The text is in the English language.
14 Q. It's in the English language, but the numbers will help you.
15 14698, and I'm picking up at line 17.
16 You were being asked a question there by another Prosecutor in
17 the Tuta Stela case about a part of your report that we have, in fact,
18 already looked at today. It's part of your report of the 27th of
19 November, P 06924, and I'm not going to take us back to it now. But you
20 were asked this question:
21 "Witness, I have a few more questions on that last paragraph,
22 when it says: 'It was observed that the wards assigned to physical
23 labour were mostly of normal weight because of increased food.'"
24 And the Prosecutor then asked you this question:
25 "Did you know that wards were taken out for physical labour?"
1 That was the question that you were asked. Do you follow so far,
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear what the witness
5 MR. LAWS
6 Q. Could you confirm that you follow my question so far, please, for
7 the interpreter?
8 A. [Interpretation] Yes, because I can hear it through the
9 interpreter, and I am following you as well.
10 Q. Thank you. I want to read what you said when you were asked that
11 question. You said, and it's line 23:
12 "I never saw that. I heard that some were taken. Personally, I
13 said to my colleague, 'Bozic,'" that's Stanko Bozic, isn't it, "'Bozic
14 tried to prevent this. It's a war crime.'"
15 Can you see the answer that you gave in the Tuta Stela case
17 A. [In English] Yes.
18 Q. "I asked where these people were. I met some people. And maybe
19 for fear, or for other reasons, they told me they didn't go there."
20 And then you said this:
21 "Some kept quiet, and from that I understood that they were taken
22 there. What they did, I don't know, but later on I heard that they had
23 been digging trenches or what have you."
24 Now, I just want to pause there. You're describing there, are
25 you not, having heard that prisoners were being used for forced labour,
1 and, quite rightly, sharing your concerns on that topic with the warden
2 of the prison, Stanko Bozic; is that right?
3 A. [Interpretation] I heard, but I didn't see. This is a major
4 difference. And, definitely, just the knowledge, as you can see, that I
5 went -- and this is in answer to some of your previous questions to me.
6 I'm not a salon doctor. I'm a doctor who went to the front-lines, who
7 went among the prisoners. I went to ask. People were quiet. As a
8 person and as a man, I understood that they were quiet, because at that
9 point in time I was on the other side. If somebody was silent, I could
10 only assume, and that assumption would be enough to initiate some
11 reactions. And as for if I had ever seen, never.
12 Q. No, you make that clear, that you never saw it. But you were so
13 worried about the situation that you spoke to Stanko Bozic, the warden,
14 and informed him that it was a war crime and that he should try to
15 prevent it happening; yes?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you knew a deal about war crimes, because I think as you also
18 said yesterday, but mentioned in Tuta Stela, you had given lectures to
19 the military police on the Geneva Conventions, hadn't you?
20 A. Yes, from the aspect of special preventive medical protection.
21 We're probably not thinking along the same lines. Sir, Mr. Prosecutor, I
22 work in preventive medicine, and I did carry the booklets that I had with
23 me, and I gave them, because as far as I'm concerned, any person is a
24 person. Without a prefix, they are a person. It doesn't matter. There
25 is no gender, no prefix. As -- if that person is ill, that is all that I
1 am taking into consideration.
2 Q. I understand that. Can we look on at what you said next in that
3 case. You said, and it's line 4 of the page that we were just on:
4 "At that moment, I didn't have any personal knowledge, but I
5 know -- I know that I told Dr. Bagaric that these people, if they
6 existed, if they were taken for labour, that they had to be protected,
7 because they were a product of a misunderstanding, and that was the worst
8 form of maltreatment and harassment. If you have to do something against
9 your better judgement, then that is the worst form of harassment."
10 Can I ask you, please, when and where you told your colleague,
11 Dr. Bagaric, about your fear that there may be forced labour within the
13 A. Not that it was going on, but that perhaps that it was going on.
14 It's different, if something is going on or could be going on, at least
15 it's in my language like that. English is something different. If you
16 noticed, sir, I went to see everyone, from the front-line to those who
17 were refugees. I was in the field. My first thing to do was to get to
18 know people.
19 Q. If you don't mind, I'm asking you about a conversation that you
20 had with Dr. Bagaric. I'm not asking you about other conversations at
21 the moment, and I'm entitled to ask you that question and to expect that
22 you will do your best to answer it. Do you follow me?
23 A. Of course.
24 Q. You said -- [Previous translation continues]... that you know,
25 you know that you told Dr. Bagaric that these people, if they existed,
1 they were taken for labour, that they had to be protected, and I want to
2 know from you, if you can help us, when you had that conversation with
3 Dr. Bagaric, and where you were when you had it, and any other details
4 that you can help us with. Do you follow the question?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. [Previous translation continues]... then please tell us about the
7 conversation with Dr. Bagaric.
8 A. I simply -- my first meeting could have been only in the Health
9 Sector, at our work-place. I said these are suspicions, and if there is
10 a suspicion, then we would need to react. We, and through our superior
11 institutions, we would need to overcome this. This is my first reaction.
12 Q. So when you -- when you told him of your fears, you believed that
13 you were in the Health Sector, in your work-place, and you discussed with
14 him how the problem could be overcome; is that right?
15 A. Yes, to overcome it, to find a potential solution that would be
17 Q. What was done, then, please, by you, by Dr. Bagaric, or by other
18 people within the Health Sector of the Defence Department, to get to the
19 truth of this issue of forced labour?
20 A. You probably do not remember, but yesterday it was said a number
21 of times, and it was accentuated yesterday a number of times, that we are
22 a consultative, advisory, educational organ, and we could only have
23 written something, passed it on to the superiors to correct this. If you
24 followed me yesterday and today, and especially yesterday, you could have
25 noticed that the number of addresses where we sent our reports was larger
1 because we, specifically the Health Sector, was not able to resolve this.
2 This exceeds our competence. But, for example, we could have - and that
3 was my duty and which does not absolve me - we could have prevented an
4 epidemic. And I believed that it was my great responsibility there. In
5 an overcrowded environment, you have an epidemic breakout very easily.
6 Q. You've made that position very clear to us about epidemics, but
7 I'm asking you very specifically about forced labour, and I'd like to
8 know from you, please, if a report on that topic was compiled by you and
9 sent to anybody.
10 A. A report, first of all, something was not seen. If something is
11 not seen, I cannot write about it, if I'm unable to bring myself to the
12 position of being an observer. So you saw yesterday that the number of
13 addresses where we sent this report had increased, and we sent it even to
14 the president of the republic. And probably, as you know, in this trial
15 a person with the establishment post such as my own was not able to write
16 to Mr. Stojic, but we did write to him. It should have gone to the
17 establishment subordination, where I am the fifth or the sixth link, but
18 evidently I did violate or exceed some of my authority in an attempt to
19 resolve these things.
20 Q. So you're -- can I be clear whether your evidence is that you
21 believe you did write to Mr. Stojic in order to tell him of your fears,
22 that there was forced labour in the Heliodrom, or is your evidence that
23 you did not write to Mr. Stojic in order to tell him of those fears?
24 A. It was written to everyone, and it says to whom, if you look at
25 it, if you look at the reports. You'll see that it went to Mr. Stojic,
1 and the Main Staff, and the president as well. And let me repeat, once
2 again, and I'm going to repeat this several more times, the medical
3 service, medical corps, in all the armed forces throughout the world, is
4 a professional body and a consultative body and working in the rear, and
5 the function of which is to provide medical care, prevention, and so on,
6 treatment, and providing material so that this can be carried out, and
7 you have that in all countries in the world.
8 Q. Thank you. The institution that you were going into was one in
9 which forced labour was taking place and detainees were being both killed
10 and wounded as a result of that forced labour on the front-line?
11 A. Never heard, never saw.
12 Q. Well, you were dealing with Stanko Bozic, and you said that you
13 had a conversation with him in which you said to him that he should try
14 to prevent it. Shall we just look, you and I, and see what Stanko Bozic
15 knew about the position immediately before your visit in September, what
16 Stanko Bozic knew. If you look with me --
17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I just ask - excuse me, Mr. Laws - a
18 question that goes a bit back to what the witness has said a short while
20 Witness, you have said that you sent the report to everyone.
21 Which report were you speaking about? That was on page 54, lines 6 and
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in all the reports, if
24 they referred to prisons, you will be able to notice that the number of
25 reports is large. There are a lot of reports. That's number one.
1 Number two, if you notice that the same methodology of work and, three,
2 if you find that at the end, what can happen, and, number four, who it
3 was addressed to. So if you look at these reports chronologically, you
4 will see that the number of addressees is increased; that is to say, we
5 did not --
6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, Mr. Witness, you are going a bit
8 The question was: There was this suspicion that you had, and you
9 admit that you had a suspicion, that prisoners were taken from detention
10 centres for forced labour, and you were asked did you report on this.
11 And you said, I sent the report to everyone. But which report referred
12 to this suspicion? That's my question. The rest, you say, I know very
13 well, I can see myself.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you, I can't remember
15 exactly because there were so many reports, but I have to say, if you
16 will allow me to do so, Your Honour, that I have to clear this up.
17 When I testified the first time via videolink, I don't know why I
18 was there. I just saw one or two examples. I was absolutely unprepared,
19 and I don't remember the matter in hand at all. As a result, I got
20 vitiligo and high blood pressure because it was extreme stress for me.
21 So as a doctor myself, I tried to push that to the back of my memory, and
22 I really don't remember. I was prepared inadequately. I was taken like
23 a lamb to the slaughter, and not to this day do I know why that happened
24 to me, and I don't remember that. And I asked Ms. Nozica yesterday --
25 she asked me when I was taken prisoner, and she said February, and I
1 said, "Senka, but it was hot weather." So as a doctor, following Freud,
2 I'm trying to push that to the back of my consciousness, so I don't
4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but that was not
5 really the question.
6 Here, today, you have said that you had this suspicion. It was
7 only a suspicion; you haven't seen it. But you had this suspicion that
8 prisoners were taken from detention centres for forced labour. If that
9 really happened, you knew, and you told Ms. Bozic that would be a war
10 crime. And you have spoken about these worries to Dr. Bagaric. And then
11 you were asked, What happened then? Were the authorities informed of
12 this suspicion? And you said, I sent the report to everyone.
13 Now, perhaps I -- the whole answer was given by you, namely, that
14 you simply do not remember which report that was. Do you then remember
15 for sure that there was a report in which you stated these suspicions to
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I really
18 can't remember, but I personally -- as a former soldier, one thing is
19 certain, and I know that. If a superior talks to me, then what he says,
20 as far as I'm concerned, they're orders to me. Now, you can understand
21 that in one way or another. And I also know that if I, as --
22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: You have answered my question.
23 Please continue, Mr. Laws. I'm sorry for interrupting you.
24 MR. LAWS
25 Q. I was going to ask you to look with me, please, at some documents
1 that show us exactly what Stanko Bozic knew, the man that you were
2 discussing this topic with. And if you would look first, please, at
3 P 05324. All right? P 05324. Now, I make it clear to help you, sir.
4 I'm not suggesting that you have seen this document before, but it is
5 written by a man who you discussed this topic with, and I want to know
6 what -- I want to look at what he knew whilst he was having that
7 conversation with you. All right?
8 Can you see it's signed by Stanko Bozic, and it says that on the
9 21st of September of 1993, the order of the 3rd Brigade took over four
10 detainees for their work, and on the 22nd of September, "we were verbally
11 informed that a detainee, Azim (son of Ibro) Karadjuz, got killed due to
12 Muslim defence forces activities."
13 Can you see that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And this is nine days before you went into that same institution.
16 If you turn on, please, two documents in your bundle, you'll have
17 P 05343, and this one is dated the 24th of September, and again it's
18 signed by Stanko Bozic, and again it's dealing with the death of
19 detainees who have been taken for work. This time they were handed over
20 for work to a military police officer in charge of their security, and
21 his name is given. And on the 24th of September, so a week before your
22 visit of the 30th, the prison were told that the two named individuals
23 there had been killed by Muslim defence force action. Can you see that?
24 Can you see that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So the person that you were discussing the issue of forced labour
2 with appears to have known very well that there was a problem in the
3 prison and that people were being taken out and being killed; do you
5 A. First of all, I have to say that this is the first time that I
6 see these reports, and I don't bring myself into any correlation with
7 this, I see no correlation between me and this, and I reject that with
8 indignation, military police and all the rest of it. That's the first
10 Number two, I did not hear that these people had been killed, and
11 there was talk of the fact that Mr. Bozic talked to me about forced
12 labour, not about killing, if he indeed did mention that. But let's
13 accept that he did, but that he talked about killing, I don't know,
14 because there's no theoretical chance of me having seen this report, not
15 even a theoretical chance.
16 Q. I made that very clear, with respect to you, in my question, that
17 you hadn't seen this report. Its significance is that the person that
18 you were discussing forced labour with knew exactly what the position
19 was, and I hope that that's not lost on you, sir.
20 The prison, the Heliodrom, was providing labourers in very, very
21 large numbers, including on the very day that you went there, the 30th of
23 We don't have time to look at all of the documents that we have,
24 but if you'd look at P 05489, we can see that in a document headed the
25 30th of September, one of the days that you went into the Heliodrom, 15
1 detainees were authorised to be taken out of the prison to perform work.
2 Can you see that?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. And we're not going to turn them all up there. They're all in
5 the bundle, and for the record I can give the numbers of these documents,
6 but it will be a waste of our time to look at them. They all start "05,"
7 and we've looked at 489. We can look also at 493, it's in my bundle,
8 507, 508, 510, 511, 512, 514. Those are all documents which deal with
9 prisoners of war or detainees within the Heliodrom going out to perform
10 forced labour on the 30th of September.
11 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I object,
12 because no mention is made in the document of either prisoners of war or
13 detainees. What the documents refer to that we've seen so far is
14 "detainees." The word used is "detainees."
15 MR. LAWS
16 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Not prisoners of war or
17 prisoners, but "detainees" in absolutely all the reports. Thank you.
18 MR. LAWS
19 Q. On the 30th of September, the documents that we have show that
20 many, many dozens of detainees, to use that word, were being taken out
21 from the Heliodrom, and it's the self-same day that you went to the
22 Heliodrom. And I want to ask you whether, going into that institution,
23 you were ever aware of people being taken for forced labour.
24 A. First of all, I have to say that I have absolutely nothing to do
25 with the sector of the defence of Mostar, nothing with these people here,
1 and I really didn't know about this, and I -- and this seems to be quite
2 up in the air, that I'm here being asked these questions.
3 I did my work as a doctor, I dealt with medicine, and I can swear
4 that I didn't see them. They could have gone at 7.00 and I might have
5 come in at 9.00. They could have left at 5.00 and I could have come in
6 at 1.00. So how can you link me with these people here? That is just
7 mobbing. I don't know this person, this head of sector, or anybody here,
8 so how do you bring me into correlation with this at all? I really don't
10 Q. Well, as I think I mentioned earlier, that the way this procedure
11 operates is that I don't have to answer your questions at this stage.
12 The Judges will decide. All right?
13 You were going into that prison. You had a suspicion. It so
14 happens that on that day many dozens of people were being taken to forced
15 labour, and in the week before, some people being taken to forced labour
16 had been killed. It's a fair question to ask you, don't you think,
17 whether you knew, going into that institution?
18 A. No, I absolutely did not know about that. What Bozic told me, I
19 said what should be done. Had I seen it, I would have put even greater
20 effort into having the things done.
21 Q. Very well. Would you look with me, please, at document P 05503,
22 your report of the 30th of September that we've looked at in another
23 context. Can you see, in the B/C/S, at the foot of the first page of
24 text, there are numbers 1, 2, and 3?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And if you turn over the page in the B/C/S, and it's still on
2 page 2 in the English, item number 4:
3 "Transfer the seriously ill and wounded to the Mostar HVO War
5 Can you see that?
6 A. Number 4, yes.
7 Q. Yes. You were keen that the sick and wounded in the Heliodrom
8 should be transferred to a hospital where they could receive appropriate
9 care; is that right?
10 A. No. No, that's a wrong interpretation. Seriously wounded and
11 seriously ill, there were none of those. Now, at the level of Heliodrom,
12 under number 3, to form an infirmary, so that is general medical care and
13 attention, but higher in quality. Now, people to be treated in hospital,
14 secondary treatment and tertiary treatment, the tertiary level of medical
15 treatment in hospital. So this was a committee made up of these people
16 listed above. It was of the -- of the Health Sector, and we certainly
17 didn't see -- at least I didn't see this, and that's why we say that an
18 infirmary should be set up and that any seriously sick or wounded persons
19 should be transported to hospital.
20 Yes, go ahead.
21 Q. Let me just try to help you, if I may. You're talking there
22 about the need for people who require hospital treatment to receive it,
23 and I want to --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I want to look with you at a letter written the very day before
1 your visit by Stanko Bozic, whom you saw on the 30th of September, and
2 see why -- why it might have been necessary to get those people to
3 hospital. And if you turn in the binder, please, to P 05465, I can help
4 you, sir, by saying, before you do, I hope, that this is not a document
5 you've seen before, it's not addressed to you, nobody is suggesting that
6 you know its contents, but it comes from Stanko Bozic to Brigadier
7 Dr. Ivan Bagaric, a gentleman with whom you said you had a conversation
8 about forced labour, and it is saying:
9 "I'm sending you this letter to inform you about the difficulties
10 and problems encountered regarding the treatment of some severely wounded
11 and sick inmates due to inadequate accommodation, insufficient material,
12 and medicaments. I would also like to ask you to transfer the sick
13 persons mentioned above and enable them to be treated in a hospital."
14 And it goes on to say:
15 "The forthcoming visit of the International Red Cross Committee
16 is yet another reason for the transfer, as it would prevent them from
17 finding the sick in inappropriate accommodation and treatment conditions
18 and consequently getting an unfavorable impression of the Heliodrom,
19 which would be detrimental for the HVO and the Croatian people in
21 That's the day before your report is saying "transfer the
22 seriously ill and wounded to hospital." Can you see that?
23 A. Yes, I can.
24 Q. And no doubt when you met Stanko Bozic on the 30th of September,
25 he impressed upon you his view that these people, who were too ill to be
1 in the Heliodrom, had to be moved out before the Red Cross came?
2 A. Do you want my answer?
3 Q. Yes, please.
4 A. Mr. Prosecutor, the 14th of August, and I remember it well - you
5 can look for it - Mr. Bagaric sent in an instruction where it states what
6 everybody should do, in exact terms. Among other things, the 3rd
7 Brigade -- the Medical Corps of the 3rd Brigade, that is, and the warden,
8 should have all the seriously sick people who need specialised
9 military -- medical assistance should be transferred to hospital in motor
10 vehicles belonging to the brigade, the medical corps ambulance, and, if
11 necessary, to the War Hospital
12 month and a half, I believe, before this. So --
13 Q. Let me try --
14 A. Have you found that instruction?
15 Q. Let me try to interrupt, if I may, before we talk in too much
16 detail about the 3rd Brigade and ambulances.
17 I think you and I might agree that there were people in the
18 Heliodrom who badly needed to go to hospital, who were not being taken to
19 hospital in September, and that action had to be taken. You and I can
20 agree about that, I think, can't we?
21 A. That, yes, we can.
22 Q. And if we just look back at your report, 5503, which is the one
23 that insists or recommends that there be a transfer of the seriously ill
24 and wounded people, we can see, on page 3 of the English and on page 2 of
25 the B/C/S, that the people who are being sent copies of this report
1 include Mate Boban; Bruno Stojic, personally; it says - yes - Zarko Tole;
2 your senior, Dr. Ivan Bagaric, personally; and the officer for prisoner
3 exchange, Mr. Brko Pusic. Can you see that?
4 A. Yes, I can, yes.
5 Q. And item 7 on the same report, it's a little bit further up the
6 page in the B/C/S and at the very top of the page in English, it says
7 this: that you want to be informed -- you want the Defence Department
8 Healthcare Sector to be informed on the undertaking of the above measures
9 by midday
10 communicate whether they have complied with your instructions. Do you
12 A. Yes, I have this attached to it.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I've just had a look at this. Item 5, at least
15 in the document that I have -- I don't know what documents I have
16 anymore. P 05503, under point 5, this commission states:
17 "... organisation of clearing up the surroundings and the
18 interior of the centre."
19 Now, whether it's Bagaric, or Bruno Stojic, or whoever to
20 react --
21 Q. I've not asked you a single question about organising the
22 perimeter or cleaning anything. I'm dealing with ill people who need to
23 go to hospital, and you know that full well. And if I may, respectfully,
24 ask you to stick with the topic. I'm going to ask you to turn to your
25 report, which is in our bundle at P 06924. 06924.
1 In September, people needed to go to hospital, and I want to see
2 what the position was in November and whether it had got any better. And
3 we looked at this document in a slightly different context earlier today,
4 and we clarified that the list of people at the foot of page 3, when
5 Judge Antonetti was asking you questions, those are all people who were
6 detained. All right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And it's a long list of people who have no place whatsoever in a
9 prison, do they?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. Eighteen mentally-ill people; people who have suffered heart
12 attacks; people with grade L myasthenia, a muscular weakness;
13 osteomyelitis, I think is a bone infection. Over the page, 55 people
14 recovering from wounds, in a setting completely unsuited for their care.
15 That's the truth, isn't it?
16 A. Mr. Prosecutor, if you look at what it says underneath that, this
17 is what it says: that this list was compiled by doctors who worked there,
18 specifically Muslims. And then if you look at the list, you have some
19 ludicrous medical things there. There is a correction of sight. I mean,
20 who doesn't need to have their sight corrected? But I accept the list --
21 accepted the list, and it went further on, it was sent further on so that
22 we could help.
23 Now, if we were to look at -- for a list in February, then you'll
24 see the situation. And thanks to the pressure from us and all the things
25 that we wrote, the situation did improve. So my conclusion would be that
1 the people here -- it's like this: Anybody who said anything, whatever
2 they said would be recorded. If somebody said they were slightly deaf,
3 that would be recorded. That's not an illness, being slightly deaf,
4 impaired hearing, but we'd write it down anyway. And I think I said that
5 sometimes I hypertrophied or, rather, inflated.
6 Q. Yes, you said that. Thank you. But the true position was that
7 although you had correctly identified the problem in September and had
8 asked that urgent action be taken, for whatever reason, come November,
9 people who should have been in hospital were still in the Heliodrom, and
10 it is as simple as that, isn't it, Doctor?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you very much. Again, I think we're not disagreeing, you
13 and I, over very much of this.
14 Can I ask you, please, to look at something with me in one of
15 your reports. 05503 is your report for the Heliodrom in September.
17 A. It is the commission's report, not mine.
18 Q. You're one member of a commission of three; is that the point
19 that you want us to understand?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Can you help us, please. At the very top of the document, we
22 have a list of features that have been established by the inspection, and
23 the inspection established, number 1:
24 "On entering the centre, we were not challenged; nor were our
25 papers checked by authorised persons."
1 Can you see that?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. And number 2:
4 "The number of men physically securing the centre is inadequate."
5 Can you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And the centre surroundings and the centre itself are untidy and
8 neglected; can you see that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can I ask you --
11 A. Yes, yes, yes.
12 Q. -- why you, as a doctor, and as you told us yesterday, only
13 concerned with the well being of the detainees, why is security now
14 something that makes an appearance in your report?
15 A. Of course. Because of the safety and security of these people.
16 Security was a question for me. There were numerous extremists, people
17 who for this or that reason had lost someone, or they were in prison, and
18 we were personally afraid. If we can go in just like that, anyone else
19 can go in, they can do whatever unpleasantness they like. They can also
20 bring in biological agents. And I believe that in prisons anywhere in
21 the world, there should be security, and there evidently was no adequate
22 security here. I mean, we can compare. In regular circumstances, I
23 would be stopped, never mind in wartime situation. And as far as I'm
24 concerned, regarding the situation of the prisoners and the security, the
25 commander of the 3rd Brigade should have been punished for this.
1 Q. What was damaging the health and well-being of the people in the
2 Heliodrom was the fact that they were locked in, not that they needed
3 more guards; that's the truth, isn't it?
4 A. Partially true. They were detained for such and such reasons,
5 and the guards were supposed to prevent, as Lenin said, the fools in our
6 ranks from doing some harm to them. That was supposed to be the general
8 Q. All right. I want to ask you some questions about Dretelj,
9 please, which is a prison to which you went on these three days in August
10 of 1993, according to your report, and I want to get the dates clear with
11 you. It's the 17th of August, the 18th of August, and the 26th of
12 August. On those three days, you went to Dretelj; yes?
13 A. I don't know if I have the transcript. Can I have the report or
14 something? If you allow me, this was 15 years ago. I don't know.
15 Q. It's 2D 00278, and you will find there the days that I have just
16 given you for the visits that you made to the Dretelj prison, using the
17 word that you prefer.
18 A. Thank you for that, thank you.
19 Q. You're very welcome. I want to show you some pictures, please,
20 that were taken on or about the 28th of August, 1993. They are pictures
21 of people who had been released from Dretelj on or about the 28th of
22 August of 1993, and they are an exhibit in this case. They have Exhibit
23 number 04588, and I believe that they are on e-court, and I'd like to
24 look at some of them with you, please.
25 If we could -- that's number 1. If we could just move through to
1 number 2. Number 3. Number 4. Number 5. Number 6. Number 7, please.
2 Number 8. Number 9. And number 10. We don't have time to do all 93.
3 You were in that camp, Dretelj, that those men -- some of those
4 men came from days before these photographs were taken, sir. Did you see
5 the people who were suffering in that way?
6 A. I didn't see them. But I see number 96. That is my first
7 neighbour. I definitely did not see this, and this is horrible. I saw
8 some other images when they were coming from the left bank, but this does
9 not justify anybody doing something like that, especially us, from what
10 we did in Dretelj. I'm not looking at what the other side did. I'm only
11 looking at what we did. But this is my neighbour, and I still see him
12 today. I absolutely condemn that.
13 On the other hand, the --
14 Q. Let me make it clear. The gentleman that we still have on the
15 screen in the photograph ending "96" was a neighbour of yours who we can
16 see --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- has been reduced to -- what would you use to describe his
19 condition? A pitiable figure; is that fair?
20 A. [No interpretation]
21 Q. And you, sir, said --
22 A. [In English] Cachexia, cachexia.
23 Q. The translation I'm getting is the same word that you're saying,
24 so it may be that there's a problem.
25 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
1 Q. A pitiable figure, and I think you were saying that what happened
2 in Dretelj was something about which you were ashamed. Is that right?
3 A. Of course. Any normal person would be ashamed of that cachexia.
4 Let me explain. It's a medical term. I don't know your legal language.
5 It's malnutrition, excessive thinness, the Biafra syndrome, people who
6 are very immunologically run down, who can be overcome by any illness.
7 Q. Thank you, I understand.
8 A. In any case, I would like to say again that I did not see these
10 Q. Well, you were in the camp the week before, and we're going to
11 look at your report, which we've just turned up, 2D 00278. You're
12 talking there about making sure that the food's prepared properly and
13 that things are clean, and the chlorine's in the water and, over the
14 page, that ambulances are equipped, and that people who are in need of
15 emergency medical specialist aid are given it. There's not a line there
16 about the people in Dretelj are starving to death, is there?
17 A. [No interpretation]
18 Q. Is there?
19 A. I told you, I didn't see them. What I don't see does not exist
20 for me. What I see, I write. I can suspect that something exists. In
21 any case, sir, Mr. Prosecutor, you can look who this was addressed to.
22 It was sent to the Office of the President of the HZ-HB. In normal army
23 structure, a person who is 15 hierarchal steps below is unable to send
24 anything higher up.
25 Q. [Previous translation continues]... telling us about that again.
1 I think I only have a few minutes remaining. SO we have that on the
2 transcript. Thank you. I want to ask you just a few more questions, if
3 I may.
4 The conditions in Dretelj you told --
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I remember these
6 photographs because we have already seen these photographs in the
7 presence of other witnesses. You are a doctor, and you saw what their
8 condition was. On the 28th of August, you prepare a report, and you say
9 that after having conducted an investigation on the 17th, 18th, and 26th
10 of August, you offer a number of solutions. But the state of health of
11 these people was such that, normally speaking, you should have clearly
12 mentioned the fact that they were so thin and that they required
13 treatment. Nothing is mentioned about this in the document.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did not see those
15 people. I went there where the commander sent me. If it was Dretelj, it
16 was Dretelj. If it was Gabela, it was Gabela. It was Heliodrom,
17 Heliodrom. That's where I went. I didn't see that. But I'm saying this
18 is disgusting. It's horrible to see, it's terrible. I condemn this,
19 regardless of the fact that they were in Dretelj, regardless of where
20 they were. This is something to be condemned. People like this are in
21 need of urgent medical help.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour. Microphone,
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like us to look at the
25 second photograph again, please.
1 Doctor, when you see a person looking like this, from a medical
2 point of view, what do you have to say about him?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Terrible conclusions. These people
4 were brought to the brink of desperation, physically and mentally.
5 Physically, it's evident, but I believe in the -- in the terms of their
6 mental state, it must be even worse. This is disgusting. I don't know
7 what to say. These people would need to be placed urgently in hospital,
8 and they would need to be given quite aggressive treatment to be saved.
9 We always wrote about that, "increase quantities and qualities of
10 food." I would be a criminal if I didn't say something like that.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In other words, this person,
12 for instance, you didn't see him in that condition, did you?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, never. I went where I
14 was taken. Where I was taken, the situation was not like this. What I
15 saw was what I wrote. Again, I note each of my reports says where, what,
16 how, but each of my reports placed me in a kind of danger from the
17 extremist forces. I was followed by the SIS, as an ex-soldier. This is
18 terrible. This is something that you can only see in Africa. This is a
19 monster and a criminal, whoever can do that. Even if he was my brother,
20 he would still be a monster and a criminal.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Laws, you have two minutes
23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Yes. I'm taking some time, which will not be to
24 your credit.
25 Witness, I hope you can -- you can explain something, because I
1 see that you were, during three days, August 18th -- 17th, 18th, and
2 26th, you say you conducted an investigation. Now, I can hardly imagine
3 that you conduct such investigation without contacts with inmates, the
4 very persons you were called to protect, as you have said several times.
5 Now, how can it be explained that you didn't see any of the rather many
6 that we have seen on the pictures? You have said you went where you were
7 taken. Does that mean that it was the wardens of the prison who
8 determined where you went and what you saw?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Generally, yes. But I asked, if
10 you remember in the case of Gabela yesterday, that I entered the hangar
11 among the people, I closed the door, and I tried to find out as much as
12 possible. But I am telling you also, Your Honour Judge Trechsel, that
13 thanks to persistent reporting and touring, I did manage to form an
14 infirmary and a medical station to these people. I didn't -- I wasn't
15 able to see something that wasn't -- that I wasn't shown.
16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Let's not be led astray. I'm sure you are aware
17 that if you visit -- if you want to seriously visit a prison, the first
18 rule is that you determine what and whom and where you want to see
19 something. But it seems that you felt not free in this respect, but
20 were, yourself, scared of -- I put it a bit bluntly, that you were scared
21 of finding out an unpleasant truth, because you thought you had SIS in
22 your back and it might have negative consequences for you, personally, if
23 you reported an unpleasant truth. Is that a misinterpretation?
24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am afraid I really
25 need to object to this manner of question. This is really a construction
1 that I believe is impermissible, so I object to this manner of
2 questioning, because I believe that regardless of what the witness talked
3 about, he's clearly stated and -- sufficiently clearly stated why he was
4 the subject of SIS surveillance; because he was a member of the JNA, not
5 because he worked -- he did his job. So I think this manner of
6 constructing a question, as far as I am concerned, would be something
7 that is impermissible.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, I'm going to answer,
9 Your Honour. I believe that I should answer this question.
10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Yes. And in the meanwhile, Ms. Nozica is
11 invited to look at page 72, lines 19 to 24 or to 23, because that's what
12 I -- that's the foundation for my question. The witness said: "I note
13 each of my report, I was followed by the SIS as an ex-soldier."
14 Yes, Ms. Nozica, Mr. Karnavas, someone else.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: Judge Trechsel, if I may, Judge Trechsel, I did
16 hear the gentleman indicate that he believed he was followed by SIS.
17 However, your construction of what you believe he said --
18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: No, I made a hypothesis. I did not say I
19 believed he said something. I'm trying to understand, Mr. Karnavas.
20 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. So, well, because the way I understood his
21 testimony was not that he was willfully trying to be blind to incidents.
22 You know, that's what it appears your hypothesis is. But the gentleman
23 indicated he's willing to answer the question, and I think we should
24 allow him to answer the question. But I don't -- if your understanding
25 is that's what he said, you know, I would disagree, but if that is a
1 hypothesis, then obviously you're entitled to put the hypothesis there.
2 You're putting it to the witness, so --
3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: That's exactly what it is, and absolutely
4 nothing else. I'm just trying to find out. I have a personal experience
5 in visiting prisons, many prisons.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand.
7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And I know what one does. Now, the witness has
8 not done this, apparently, and I would like him to explain. That's all.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not trying to be confrontational.
10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And I'm sorry if I have upset you, Ms. Nozica.
11 That was not my intention, perhaps I have not been careful.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, one moment, please.
13 I don't agree with what you said a while ago, for the following reason:
14 The Judges are like doctors, we try to get to the truth, and sometimes we
15 grope around. When a doctor is faced with a patient who is coughing, he
16 may imagine that the patient is suffering from influenza, from
17 tuberculosis, from a lung tumor or an infection or something else.
18 Therefore, the physician must put questions to understand what the
19 patient is suffering from. Well, the Judges do the same. They make
20 assumptions and try to get to the truth.
21 We are faced here with someone who has seen or who hasn't seen
22 the prisoners, and we try to understand why he did not see any prisoners.
23 An assumption is made, maybe he didn't see the prisoners because he may
24 have been exposed if he had taken this too far. This is a valid question
25 for a competent judge.
1 Your objection, therefore, is lacks foundation and lacks sense.
2 Why did the witness not go and see the prisoners? And the Judges don't
3 understand why it is that if he saw the prisoners, some prisoners were
4 [indiscernible]. This is in the interest of your client that we're
5 trying to understand. There is nothing worse than Judges who don't put
6 any questions.
7 This is what I wanted to tell you, Ms. Nozica.
8 Witness, can you answer this question put to you by my colleague?
9 I agree 100 per cent with what he said.
10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let him answer the question,
12 and then you can talk afterwards. Let your witness answer the question.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours -- thank you,
14 Judge Antonetti, for the explanation.
15 First of all, I can see that you have dealt with the subject well
16 and you have read the reports. Often, I wrote a lot of ugly things. Had
17 I been afraid, I would not have written down any of them. All of my
18 reports mostly had negative connotations and would not be written by
19 somebody who is afraid. I knew I was being followed by the SIS, I was
20 told that, but I wrote from my conscience. I am a doctor. Just like you
21 are a judge, I am a doctor by conviction.
22 Number 2, I knew that I should be looking for this, this, and
23 that. I don't know the localities. They went to different places. They
24 took me there. The first thing was for me to see, physically. It's
25 true, the doctor should take a diagnosis, a history of illness, and
1 that's what I did. I saw all sorts of people in front of me, and
2 specifically there are reports that I made efforts and that there was a
3 kitchen in Dretelj where the wards were working, which was my personal
5 If necessary, I'm going to repeat a million times, Your Honours,
6 I did not see these people, and I am horrified by these photographs. And
7 if there is a fault within me, I accept that, but I didn't see them.
8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did not have any
9 problem with the question in the way that you put it. I remain by my
10 objection. I believe that - this is my objection - that a Judge cannot
11 put a hypothesis that would include a leading question, a suggestive
12 question. If you wish to ask this witness, "Were you afraid of someone
13 and did you write down all that you saw," that is quite all right for me.
14 I believe that the question, the way His Honour Judge Trechsel put it,
15 was a leading question, in my view, full of constructs, suggesting to the
16 witness that he was not doing his job because he was afraid of something.
17 And I still believe that these questions are impermissible. The way in
18 which you interpreted it, Judge Antonetti, is quite acceptable, as far as
19 I'm concerned, and the witness has answered the question in its entirety.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
21 Witness, you have explained to us that you didn't see them.
23 Mr. Laws.
24 MR. LAWS
25 Q. May I end, please, sir, in the way that you and I began, that you
1 said that it was a very unpleasant life experience for you to go into the
2 Heliodrom, and does the same apply for your visits to Gabela, to Dretelj,
3 and to the other detention camps, or "prisons," as you prefer, that the
4 HVO were running?
5 A. It's a traumatising experience for me, when I found expelled
6 people in the Students' Hall, children of three to four months, who were
7 being breast-fed. All this is very traumatic. I think that us doctors
8 also who went through the war also suffered suffer from PTSD as a result
9 of that. So the negative experiences do not only have to do with camps,
10 prisoners and so on, but also for places where there were refugees. It
11 was a horrible thing. They were in their bare feet, with ripped clothes,
12 arriving with bleeding feet, women with small children. This is
13 something that I saw in Kupres.
14 Q. All right. If anybody wants to ask you about Kupres, they can do
15 that. I'm asking you about camps, and I don't think there's any
16 disagreement between you and I. What you saw in those HVO prisons
17 appalled you, didn't it?
18 A. Yes, but we must broaden it. Other things are awful, too. We
19 cannot selective, we cannot pick selective questions. For me, it's
20 horrible to see expelled people in one place, bleeding women, and
21 three-month-old babies who are crying. Perhaps that can be an even
22 greater trauma, but prison is also a trauma, for sure, sir.
23 Q. In some regards, we can be selective, because we can deal with
24 one topic at a time. The topic that I have been asking you about so far
25 is prisons, and I think you agree with me that what you saw in the HVO
1 prisons appalled you and has left you to this day likely to start to cry
2 when you recall what you saw; that's the position, isn't it?
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, at this point I'm going to object --
4 MR. LAWS
5 answer the question.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm going to object because we're not in front of
7 a jury.
8 MR. LAWS
9 MR. KARNAVAS: I can see if we we're in the Old Bailey, where
10 we're trying to evoke emotion in front of the jury --
11 MR. LAWS
12 the witness a question which he's perfectly capable of answering.
13 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm entitled to make my record, sir. Kindly --
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You forget something. You were
15 not here yesterday. Yesterday, the witness displayed some considerable
16 emotion. Therefore, the Prosecutor's question is to be seen in that
17 context. And so if you were not present, you may not know everything.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not suggesting that I know everything. I do
19 know one thing, though; that the gentleman has said today, at least 50
20 times, how he was appalled, how he was horrified, and so on and so forth.
21 How many more times do we need to hear it, especially were I'm being told
22 repeatedly that I'm in front of professional judges, not an Iowa jury or
23 not an Arkansas
24 MR. LAWS
25 the camps that he went to. He's capable of answering the question, and
1 there's no proper objection to it at all. I'd invite the Court to direct
2 that he answers it. I think he wants to answer it.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, I'm going to repeat the
4 same. It's appalling and disgusting to me to see refugees, in the same
5 way that it's appalling and disgusting to see a prison. There is no
6 difference. These are people in misery who need material and
7 psychological support.
8 Sir, if you are making a difference between refugees and these
9 others, sir, then you surprise me. You surprise me as a lawyer, as a
10 person who works here, who sits there. You have really surprised me,
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor has just
13 completed his cross-examination.
14 Ms. Nozica, do you have any redirect?
15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes. Regardless, I'll ask the
16 witness to calm down. If he needs to drink some water or needs to take a
17 break, I think -- anyway, I think it would be a good idea to take a break
18 at this point, because I see that the witness is very upset. And all I
19 need is 10 to 15 minutes.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you do with a break,
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, just go ahead. Just go
24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't feel
25 comfortable, questioning the witness after that reaction. I don't feel
1 comfortable with it. And if the witness begins to have a flood of
2 emotion, his floodgates of emotion break through during my questioning, I
3 don't want to experience that. So, if possible, I'd like us to take a
4 short break, and I don't have many questions to ask.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, let's have a 20-minute
7 --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.
10 Ms. Nozica, you may proceed.
11 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Re-examination by Ms. Nozica:
13 Q. Witness, I haven't prepared the documents, and I'm going to put
14 several to you, but I think that you can find it on e-court, on your
15 screen, so let's look at P 4186 now, please, which is a document that the
16 Prosecutor showed you, and it will come up on e-court so you'll be able
17 to see it on your screen. It is in the Prosecution binder, but as I can
18 say -- as I said, you can follow it on the screen.
19 So this is a letter dated the 14th of August, and you said that
20 you don't know whether Mr. Stojic received it. And it talks about food
21 for these 2.100 detainees.
22 Now, the Prosecutor put it to you that you could have known about
23 this situation on the basis of document 2D 917, so can we have that
24 document put up now - 2D 917 is the number - which is your own report
25 dated the 6th of August. That is eight days before the other one. It is
1 from the Heliodrom locality. Can we take a look at the second page of
2 that document, which is also on page 2 of the English version. At the
3 very top of that page, at the top of page 2, you can see the date, first
4 of all, and then at the top, in the Croatian version, I think it is
5 paragraph 4 of the English text, where the Central Investigatory Prison
6 is talked about, and they say that the detainees get their food from the
7 central kitchen.
8 And my question to you is this, Witness: Doing your visit, did
9 Mr. Bozic tell you anything about the problems of the central kitchen and
10 that it was not able to supply food to all the detainees and prisoners in
12 A. Had Mr. Bozic said anything, then rest assured that it would have
13 been written down, and I would have tried to solve the problem at least
14 in that way.
15 Q. Witness, during the examination-in-chief, I asked you something
16 about this next subject that I'd like to address, and you said something
17 about it in cross-examination, what the food that the HVO ate, was like,
18 what they received. And in response to a question from the Prosecutor,
19 you said that the members of the HVO, after eating the food in Heliodrom
20 from the central kitchen, that they could also eat food at home. Now,
21 I'm not going to ask you what food you had at home, but I would like to
22 ask you to explain to the Trial Chamber the circumstances and conditions
23 under which the members of the HVO lived, by and large, at least the ones
24 that you came into contact with; that is to say, those who were not put
25 up in barracks, or those who were, but generally where the people were
1 who were not put up in the barracks, because you visited the front-lines.
2 So tell us under what conditions they lived under and what food they ate,
3 what kind of food they had.
4 A. In principle, we must distinguish between two categories of
5 soldiers here. The first category are domicile soldiers, as we referred
6 to them, that is to say, locals who lived there, who had their homes
7 there, and where they never had a food shortage. But there was another
8 category and a larger category --
9 Q. Just be precise. You said they had their homes, their houses,
10 and as far as I understood you, did you say they had less food?
11 A. No. There were two categories. One was domicile soldiers, and
12 the second category was soldiers who had become activated when they
13 arrived in Mostar, having been -- having come from elsewhere. So this
14 other category of people who had been expelled from the places they had
15 lived beforehand had collective accommodation, and their situation was
16 very bad. They had very little food, and unfortunately among them there
17 were many people who later on imbued alcohol. And I personally think
18 that their food was very bad, and not only for them, but the supply to
19 their families too. And the second category were the category of people
20 who lived there, if they lived around Citluk, Hamzici, Siroki Brijeg,
21 Tucanovici [phoen], those places, they had better living conditions. So
22 that was the situation, two categories.
23 Q. I'm asking you about the people who lived in Mostar. Were there
24 enough collective centres in Mostar to accommodate them, people who had
25 been expelled or arrived as displaced persons or refugees, to live in
1 those centres with their relations?
2 A. Yes, there were centres of that kind, and the conditions there
3 were indeed very poor, because there was a food shortage, there was very
4 little food, and you must understand the situation. And with the influx
5 of expelled persons into Mostar, the food storages had either -- had been
6 depleted because they'd either been looted or whatever. I said that
7 there was very little water, too, and that you had a lot of people in
8 different ages in one place suddenly. There were many pregnant women, a
9 lot of elderly persons, and there was generally very little food, and not
10 only very little food for them but also for the domicile population, if
11 we're all referring to Mostar.
12 Q. Well, yes, as the report refers to Heliodrom, I am referring to
13 the domicile population of Mostar.
14 Now, regardless of what you said in respect of Mostar, I'd like
15 you to look at the next document, which is 2D 2021, and it will come up
16 on our screens on e-court. Just wait for it a moment. I'll remind you
17 that it is the report of the 6th of February, 1993, which is a weekly
19 Now, I'm interested in the last paragraph there, where you talk
20 about -- well, you say that when you toured an area, you found that
21 effective action was necessary because there was serious shortcomings
22 which needed to be dealt with as soon as possible. At the central
23 kitchen in Ljubuski, you say existed, and the Jajce Battalion, Sutka and
24 Tomislavgrad. Now, could you explain to Their Honours whether that was
25 one of the localities in which the Jajce Battalion was located, the
1 Tomislavgrad SUP
2 were like?
3 A. On the one hand, we have the kitchen in Ljubuski, which was a
4 domicile kitchen used by the people of Ljubuski. They cooked the food
5 there and sent the food out to their soldiers. And if normal standards
6 applied, you would have to close that kitchen, but there was no other way
7 about it and you had to keep it going.
8 Now, as far as your second question is concerned, the
9 Tomislavgrad Vocational School, which was where the battalion was
10 located, although these terms are all suspect, but, anyway, there were
11 terrible conditions there because they -- there were families of refugees
12 there, people from Jajce. You had the Krajl Tomislav Brigade members
13 from Tomislavgrad and you had their families there as well, and there
14 were a lot of them. There were not enough toilets, and one of the main
15 tasks was to disinfect the area for the sewage and so on, to prevent the
16 spread of typhoid and infectious diseases generally. And typhoid did
17 break out in a part of Jajce or, rather, the people that fled in the face
18 of the Serb aggression from Jajce. The conditions were terrible, and I'm
19 sure you won't misunderstand me when I say that they might have been just
20 a little better compared to the prison. Well, for the sole reason that
21 there was no security there, that might have been the only difference, no
22 guards, but otherwise the picture was very desperate and, of course, they
23 drank a lot, so this made the situation worse.
24 Q. Now you've explained to us how they came to there from Jajce, but
25 we were discussing the food and the soldiers -- nutrition for the
1 soldiers and so on. Can you tell us specifically whether you were ever
2 at that facility and what the soldiers' food was like and the food of the
3 families that lived there?
4 A. Well, it was very insufficient, both in terms of the quality and
5 quantity, it was no good at all. And then later on, after a long period
6 of time had gone by, when I went back to my department, many people came
7 for treatment from those parts, and they suffered from various syndromes,
8 and many of them had chronic intestinal diseases. And I believe that in
9 1998, there was another epidemic of typhoid.
10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Ms. Nozica, it seems to me that you are going a
11 bit beyond and outside of what the questions of the Prosecution in
12 cross-examination were. Jajce was not mentioned, as far as I recall.
13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no mention was made of
14 Jajce, but the members of the HVO Army was mentioned and their food. The
15 people from Jajce later on became members of the HVO, so I'm talking
16 about the conditions that prevailed precisely with respect to the
17 application of the Geneva Conventions, so I'm talking about the state of
18 food that the HVO had. And these members from Jajce, as we can see from
19 this report, without a doubt, were members of the HVO, there's no doubt
20 about that, on the 3rd of February. And I asked this witness in general
21 terms, this document being merely an illustration of what the witness has
22 already said.
23 Q. Now, Witness, I'm only focusing on food here, on the food
24 situation. Before the break, you began to speak about refugee centres.
25 Could you explain to us whether you toured these refugee centres on a
1 regular basis, whether they existed all over HZ-HB? And I'm specifically
2 asking you about the refugee centres where there were Croats. And then
3 could you explain to us what kind of food they had and what the state --
4 their living conditions were during this period of time? Let's take it
5 from the end -- from May 1993 to the beginning of 1994, for instance. To
6 the best of your knowledge, what were their living conditions like?
7 A. Your Honours, I said yesterday that, well, through force of
8 circumstance, I became a preventive medicine expert. I'm an
9 infectologist otherwise. But as there were no specialists in preventive
10 medicine and epidemiologists, I took it upon myself to perform that task.
11 Had there been an epidemiologist present, he might have done the work
12 better than me, but I know that I worked a lot, I worked very hard, and
13 I think I satisfied the lack of knowledge that I might have otherwise had
14 in the field, because I had to educate myself in preventive medicine.
15 And as a former officer of the Yugoslav People's Army, I knew what had to
16 be done.
17 And I said yesterday that wherever you have a large number of
18 people gathering together, regardless of where they are, they become
19 potential sources of infection. And you know that during the winter,
20 when a flu is prevalent, one of the preventive measures is to prevent
21 large numbers of people conglomerating, to prevent the spread of disease,
22 just as infectious disease, you have to separate the people and look at
23 their accommodation.
24 So wherever the refugees were accommodated was a signal to me to
25 go and check out the conditions and situation, to do everything in my
1 power to prevent these people from coming down with disease.
2 Q. Just a minute, Witness. Your answer is a little too long, and I
3 was focusing on one point, actually, and it is this: Were there
4 refugees -- such refugee centres from May 1993 to the beginning of 1994
5 in the area of Mostar and the surrounding parts? And if so, did you
6 visit them or it, and what was the food situation like for those refugees
7 who were predominantly Croats? That's who I'm asking about, the Croats.
8 And I know that you said yesterday that you visited the refugee centres
9 which had Muslims in them at the end of 1992.
10 A. Let me repeat. I made several visits, not one but several, and
11 there's a lot of paperwork to bear that out. There was not enough food
12 at the beginning of the war, when the roads were cut off, the
13 communication lines were cut off, and when food couldn't be brought in.
14 There was not enough food for the domicile population either. And as for
15 the localities you are asking about, the people were certainly hungry
16 there. They certainly didn't have enough clothing, and they certainly
17 didn't have enough footwear. They didn't have enough hot water. They
18 didn't have enough blankets or things to cover themselves with. They
19 slept on the floor with the odd rug or blanket. We managed to clean them
20 and disinfect them from time to time, but not very often.
21 Q. Witness, when you visited centres like that, you made your
22 recommendations for improving the situation, did you not, and you
23 indicated to the authorities under whose authority those centres were?
24 A. Yes. Well, I explained all that yesterday. I do not make a
25 distinction between soldiers and civilians. As far as I'm concerned,
1 they're all human beings, so I don't distinguish between prisons and
2 displaced persons, expelled persons. I don't make that distinction, as I
3 told the Prosecutor earlier on. I don't -- all I can distinguish is sex,
4 age, and whether a person is healthy or sick. There's no other
5 difference, as far as I'm concerned.
6 Q. All right, fine. Now let's move on to the next question, which
7 relates to the genders.
8 And the Prosecutor asked you whether you had seen women in
9 Heliodrom. I am going to ask you this: Do you know whether women, too,
10 could have been members of the BH Army, whether women could have been the
11 perpetrators of certain criminal acts? And I'm referring to -- when I
12 ask you this, I'm referring to your answer to that same question, the
13 answer you gave in the Naletilic/Martinovic trial on page 14708, where
14 you address that matter.
15 A. So you're asking whether women could? All I can say is that I
16 didn't see them, but why not? Why could not a woman be that? And I --
17 when I was a child, I learnt about national heroes, women like
18 Marija Bursac, who were partisans, and in my unit there were many women
19 who -- and in the medical corps and quartermaster corps, and especially
20 women up at the front-line, they were of no lesser value than their
21 fellow combatants. But I don't think that a woman's place is in the
22 army, but more in the rear.
23 Q. Well, you said you didn't see any women, and I am referring to
24 the answer you gave in the Tuta Stela trial, so I'm asking you whether
25 women can be army members, and can women be the perpetrators of criminal
2 A. Yes, I said that if there were women in the HVO, why wouldn't
3 there have been any women in the Bosnian or Serbian Army.
4 Q. Can a woman perpetrate a crime?
5 A. Any person, regardless of their race, age, gender, or sex, and
6 regardless of their title, can make a -- commit a crime.
7 Q. I am going to show you now P 5464. You were talking about this
8 document yourself, so I would like to ask you something about it.
9 Can we look at this document in e-court, please. This is
10 document 5465. My mistake. 5465.
11 Witness, you haven't seen it yet. You're going to get it in a
12 minute. Just one moment. The usher has found it.
13 And you also have seen the document before. Please, you said
14 that you don't know. This is a document that Mr. Stanko Bozic writes to
15 the deputy of the defence head, Dr. Ivan Bagaric, and he complains in
16 this document that the wounded and the sick should be transferred to
17 hospital. You said yourself, and this is written in page 68, line 8 of
18 our transcript of today, that you know that practically one month before
19 that, Mr. Bagaric gave a precise instruction about how the sick should be
20 transferred who are in need of hospital care; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. I'm going to ask you to look at document, and the
23 document that was shown to you yesterday by my colleague, Ms. Alaburic,
24 and this is document P 4145. It's going to come to you in the electronic
25 courtroom. Just one moment, just wait, please. I just would like to ask
2 You notice the date, the 14th of August, and now I'm going to
3 just ask you if you -- if you had ever referred to this document.
4 A. Yes. Defence Counsel Alaburic put the question to me about this,
5 but it was a bit terminologically demanding, this document.
6 Q. Can you please look at this last item, which says: "Until we
7 resolve the issue of an ambulance for Heliodrom, please use vehicle OZJIH
8 and the War Hospital
9 A. Well, this is the Operations Zone of the 3rd Brigade, where
10 Heliodrom was, and they were given the option of so-called evacuation to
11 them, so that the War Hospital
12 loaded into the vehicles [as interpreted], and then they would be
13 returned. This is evacuation to them. There is evacuation away from
14 them, meaning that vehicles of the 3rd Brigade and the operation zone
15 would take the prisoners and take them to the hospital. There would be
16 two-way evacuation that would be used, to yourself and away from
18 Q. In the documents, it says that Mr. Bozic received very precise
19 instructions about the way in which you could send the ill to the
20 hospital, those who required medical attention or hospital attention?
21 A. If we look at the 12th of August, well, it's a month and a half.
22 I think the instruction is quite clear. Rather, it was foreseen that
23 some unpleasant kind of situation could occur and that immediately, at
24 the start, we would need to find a solution, because - you know
25 what? - in peace time you mostly work on the basis of some assumptions.
1 In war, not only are you operating with assumptions, but you have to make
2 guesses, so it's even more difficult. So it's a major thing for you to
3 manage to assume that something would happen so that this would not
4 happen later. That is why they were taking all these measures.
5 Q. And now my last question. When you were talking about proposals
6 for measures, you said in the response to the question by my learned
7 friend, the Prosecutor, you said that it was obvious that the situation
8 was getting better, in terms of the time as time went by. Now, I am
9 specifically going to ask you this: First of all, is this correct, and
10 in the same way was the situation gradually improving, as far as food was
11 concerned for the people in the collection centres, as well as the
12 provisions for Mostar, and was the HVO Army in Mostar getting better food
13 as time went by?
14 A. Yes, I think that there is a report somewhere, if I'm not
15 mistaken, in February 1994 precisely referring to Heliodrom. I think it
16 was February 1994, yes, where it was achieved that - amongst other
17 things - at that particular location, the ward said that the food was
18 qualitatively good, that they had toilet paper, that they had sufficient
19 food, and that their people who were working there were taking preventive
20 measures. And for me, that is a major thing. And I also believe that to
21 be a result of our pressure, our voluminous writing, and reports and so
22 on. And in the way that things changed there, things changed for the
23 better among the expelled persons. If you compare and you look at those
24 reports, you are going to see large, large steps forward.
25 Q. The third category was: Were the members of the HVO, as time
1 went by -- did the situation and the conditions of their food supplies
2 improve? When you went out into the field, did you see anything like
3 that when you were touring the units?
4 A. Yes, the situation was improving. There was more food and there
5 was better quality of food. And looking at it from the aspect of
6 preventive medicine, there was something else. Already at the time, it
7 was the case that doctors in Heliodrom and at the front were keeping
8 records and protocols. We had managed to achieve a complete positive
9 move forward. Had the war gone on longer, we would have met all the
10 required conditions. Thank God it didn't last long, but had it gone on,
11 we would have continued.
12 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.
13 Your Honours, I have completed my examination of this witness,
14 and I have no further questions. Thank you very much.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have had 25 minutes for
16 your redirect, which will be subtracted from your time.
17 Witness, I'd like to thank you for having come to testify at the
18 request of Mr. Stojic's Defence counsel. I wish you a safe journey home,
19 and I wish you well.
20 Before you leave the courtroom, I would like the blinds to be
21 dropped so that you can leave.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I say something?
23 First of all, thank you very much for the professional attitude,
24 although for me this is a very traumatic experience. I thank the Defence
25 lawyers and the Prosecution. And, first of all, I would like to thank
1 the Victims and Witnesses Service because they have done so much to make
2 this time, which has been devastating, stabbed me right in the heart, and
3 it was very traumatic for me, to make it easier. And I would like to be
4 excused in the future, and I have very high blood pressure now, and if I
6 through it.
7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but while
8 the witness is still in the courtroom, I really must say that if the
9 witness believes that there is my responsibility here because he is under
10 stress here today, had I known that the witness would be in this
11 situation, I would not have called him at all. And this is information
12 both for you and the witness, and my apologies to the witness.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's drop the blinds now,
15 Ms. Alaburic, I believe you want to say something about a
16 housekeeping matter.
17 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have just one
19 Last week, you allowed the Defence of General Petkovic to prepare
20 a reply to the answers submitted by the Prosecution and the Defence of
21 Mr. Coric in relation to rights of the accused in the case of conflicting
22 defences. On the same day after I submitted that request, we received
23 the reply from Mr. Stojic's Defence, and I'm just asking permission for
24 this reply of ours to refer to all three responses, so I'm asking for an
25 expansion of your decision to the response of Mr. Stojic's Defence.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This has been recorded on the
2 transcript, and the answers will include all three Defence teams.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, tomorrow we have
5 another witness. That's fine. The witness is coming; yes? We can start
6 with this witness tomorrow?
7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The plan is --
8 well, the preparations are proceeding according to plan, and I don't
9 expect to encounter any problems.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Ms. Nozica.
11 It's time to adjourn the hearing now. I wish all and every one a
12 pleasant afternoon, and we shall meet again tomorrow morning at 9.00.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.10 p.m.
14 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of
15 March, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.