1 Monday, 9 March 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The Accused Prlic not present]
5 [The Accused Coric not present]
6 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, kindly call the
8 case, please.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
10 everyone in and around the courtroom.
11 This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus
12 Prlic et al.
13 Thank you, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
15 Today is Monday, 9th of March, 2009. Good afternoon to the
16 accused, and in particular to Mr. Petkovic, who's back with us today.
17 Good afternoon to the Defence counsel, all the OTP representatives, the
18 Registrar, and all the people assisting us.
19 We are starting ten minutes later than usual because the previous
20 Trial Chamber had worked later than scheduled. I really insist on
21 everybody finishing on time, because when I have a hearing, I make sure I
22 don't go over time because this is bound to have consequences for those
23 following us. The Presiding Judges have to be able to conduct hearings
24 in good time.
25 This being said, I'll first ask the Registrar to give us some
1 IC numbers.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Some parties have submitted lists of documents to be tendered
4 through Witness Pinjuh, Dragan. The list submitted by 2D shall be given
5 Exhibit IC939. The list submitted by 4D shall be given Exhibit IC940.
6 The list submitted by the Prosecution shall be given Exhibit IC941. And
7 2D has submitted objection to the Prosecution's documents tendered via
8 Witness 2D-AB. This list shall be given Exhibit IC942. Thank you,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 I have three rulings to hand down; the first related the Prlic
12 Defence request for overstepping the number of words. There was a
13 confidential annex to the request regarding a witness and a request for
14 being allowed to use more words than the number usually allowed.
15 Further to the practical direction of the Tribunal regarding the
16 length of motions and briefs, dated the 16th of September, 2005, one -- a
17 motion may not be longer than 3.000 words. A party is, however, allowed
18 to seek leave to use more words than the usual word limit, but has to
19 reason its request, justifying exceptional circumstances for longer
20 briefs or motions.
21 The Trial Chamber notes that the instant motion contains
22 5.506 words and is longer than the allowed amount of words. The
23 Trial Chamber cannot deviate from the general -- or cannot abide by this
24 practice by the Prlic Defence, which is to file a longer motion whilst
25 asking, in the same motion, for leave to use more words. The
1 Trial Chamber is of the view that the Prlic Defence should have sought
2 leave to increase the word limit before the Trial Chamber before it filed
3 its motion. Furthermore, in the view of the Trial Chamber, the
4 Prlic Defence failed to demonstrate the presence of exceptional
5 circumstances that would allow for a longer filing.
6 Therefore, the Trial Chamber denies the request for exceeding the
7 word limit and decides not to look into the Prlic motion. It is for the
8 Prlic Defence to file new filings, complying with the authorised word
10 Second ruling regarding notice of the testimony of the witness
11 who's supposed to start his testimony today. After deliberation, the
12 Trial Chamber decided to grant the Stojic Defence, as part of the
13 examination-in-chief, one hour and fifteen minutes. The other accused
14 will be given 45 [as interpreted] minutes. And the Trial Chamber has
15 decided to allot the OTP, for their cross-examination, one hour and
16 fifteen minutes.
17 There seems to be a mistake in the transcript. For the other
18 accused, it is 40 minutes, not 45.
19 Third ruling, regarding Witness Nenad Sandzic [as interpreted].
20 The Trial Chamber decided to grant the Stojic Defence, for their
21 examination-in-chief of the witness, one hour. The other Defence teams
22 will have 30 minutes, and the OTP will have one hour. However, regarding
23 the possibility for the Praljak Defence to examine the witness under
24 Rule 92 ter, the Trial Chamber decided not to grant time to the
25 Praljak Defence for the witness. The Praljak Defence will have to call
1 the witness themselves when they begin their case.
2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
3 Mr. President.
4 This last ruling was taken by a majority of Judges. I had a
5 dissenting opinion. I wanted to keep on the same track for the sake of
6 synergy and time-saving, and I felt quite positive that it would have
7 been possible to better use this time as part of what was planned.
8 That's the reason why I was not in favour of the last decision.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I will file a separate opinion
10 regarding this decision after thoroughly reflecting on the issue. The
11 fact that an accused calls a witness as part of the case of another
12 accused may bring about conflicts of interest between the parties, the
13 Defence teams. Therefore, I believe it is suitable for each accused to
14 call their own witnesses as part of -- they see logical in their Defence
15 strategy without calling them as part of another accused's case.
16 These were the three rulings.
17 We're going to have the witness brought in. Please, Mr. Usher.
18 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
19 I would just like to correct the transcript. On page 3, line 15,
20 the name of the witness should read "Nedzad Cengic," and in the record it
21 says "Nenad Sandzic." It should be "Nedzad Cengic."
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Nozica.
23 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, I always had a tough time with
24 the names, but we ought to have them properly recorded.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much again.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please state your surname,
5 first name, and date of birth.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Tihomir Majic, born on
7 the 14th of May, 1958, Rudo municipality.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current
9 occupation, sir?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am retired now.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are retired from the army?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, an army pensioner.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] From the army. And what was
14 your rank when you retired?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Brigadier.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you had an opportunity to
17 testify before a court of law or is this going to be the first time
18 you're going to testify to the events that took place in the former
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I'm
21 testifying before a court.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please read out the solemn
23 declaration handed over to you by the usher.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 WITNESS: TIHOMIR MAJIC
2 [The witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. Please be
5 A few words by way of explanation from me, but I believe that
6 Ms. Nozica has already explained it all to you, but you never know.
7 You will first answer questions by Ms. Nozica, and she may submit
8 to you documents in so doing. Once this is done, the other Defence
9 counsel, who are seated behind her or next to her, may have questions for
10 you as well, if they think it's necessary as part of their own
11 cross-examination. As to the Prosecutor, I think it's going to be
12 Madam Prosecutor, she's seated on your right-hand side, she also will
13 have questions for you as part of her cross-examination. You have four
14 Judges in front of you. They may at any time ask questions of you, but
15 as a rule we prefer putting questions to documents in order to save time,
16 not to have to look for the document again.
17 Sometimes it's quite strenuous to testify, especially if this is
18 a first for you. That's why you're going to have 20-minute breaks every
19 90 minutes.
20 You are now a witness of the Court. No doubt you'll come back
21 tomorrow into this courtroom, but you're not to have any contact
22 whatsoever with anybody until your testimony is over.
23 Do endeavour to be precise in your answers. If you fail to
24 understand any question, do not hesitate to seek clarification, and the
25 one asking you may reformulate it, even if the Judges are asking you
1 questions, because they're not perfect, they don't know everything, and
2 sometimes they're not able to express their questions properly. So do
3 not hesitate to ask the Judges to reformulate their questions.
4 If at any time you're not feeling well, just raise your hand and
5 we'll have a break immediately so that you can have a rest.
6 So all this for the testimony to take place as smoothly as
7 possible, in the interests of the Accused Stojic, who's calling you, and
8 also in the interests of justice.
9 You may proceed, Ms. Nozica.
10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Examination by Ms. Nozica:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Majic.
13 A. Good afternoon.
14 Q. I'm going to go through your CV now, but I'd like to start off by
15 asking you whether, in the official documents, you used your nickname,
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Very well, fine. Now, I'm going to go briefly through your CV,
19 and you can tell us at the end whether what I've read out is correct, so
20 that we can move forward.
21 The Secondary School of Construction is one you graduated from in
22 1976 in Vukovar; is that right? And you had a construction company of
23 your own from 1980 to 1990 in Grude. At the end of 1991, you were
24 appointed to the Crisis Staff of Grude municipality, and you worked there
25 procuring materiel and technical equipment. When the Main Staff was
1 established, and that was roughly in April 1992, the warehouse and depot
2 formed part of the Main Staff, and you continued working as a warehouse
3 operator. In May 1993, this warehouse or, rather, the logistical base,
4 the Central Logistics Base, as it was called, became part of the
5 Procurement Sector, and under the Defence Department. You continued
6 working in the Logistics Base as a warehouse-keeper. In May 1993, you
7 were appointed to another duty, the deputy assistant of the head of the
8 Defence Department, in the Procurement Sector -- Procurement and
9 Production Sector. And from May 1993, that same date, until 1997, you
10 mostly worked in -- on jobs concerning construction. In 1997, you
12 Is all that information correct, Mr. Majic?
13 A. Yes, all the information is correct.
14 Q. Now, Mr. Majic, can you tell the Trial Chamber who and when
15 appointed you to the Crisis Staff of Grude municipality?
16 A. I was appointed by the Municipal Council. I was appointed by
17 them to the Crisis Staff of Grude municipality.
18 Q. And can you tell us when that was?
19 A. 1991, towards the end of the year.
20 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber why the Crisis Staff was set
21 up in the first place?
22 A. When the Serb Army attacked the municipality of Ravno
23 deployed their tanks in Kupres municipality, everything that went on in
24 the Republic of -- and in view of everything that went on in the
25 Republic of Croatia
1 for defence purposes, to defend us from the Serbs.
2 Q. Were you given any assignments in that Crisis Staff?
3 A. In the Crisis Staff, my assignments were to procure and store
4 materiel and technical equipment.
5 Q. Did the Grude municipality have any weaponry which could be used
6 had an attack by the Serb Army taken place?
7 A. At that time, the Territorial Defence of Grude municipality had
8 its own weapons, but prior to the recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina those
9 weapons were seized by the JNA, which meant that we did not have any
11 Q. If I've understood you correctly, when you were appointed to the
12 Crisis Staff, when it was established at the end of 1991, that same
13 Crisis Staff had no weaponry.
14 A. That is right, it did not have any weaponry.
15 Q. Now, tell us, please, what was your first task when you joined
16 the Crisis Staff? What did you do first upon your appointment?
17 A. When I was appointed, the first thing we did was to make a list
18 of all the hunting weapons in Grude municipality; that is to say, we
19 called up -- we called upon the citizens to report their weapons so that
20 we could make a record of them, and we made some devices like Molotov
21 cocktails and so on to be able to deal with the enemy, and then we
22 started to purchase automatic rifles as well.
23 Q. How did you purchase the automatic weapons, and did you? Did you
24 and how?
25 A. At the level of the municipality, we would call upon all the
1 citizens who wished to purchase weapons and who had the money to purchase
2 weapons and could do so, and we collected about 120.000 German marks in
3 that first stage, and the president of the Executive Council went and
4 procured the weapons. And when the weapons arrived, they were stored in
5 my warehouse. And as soon as I received a list of persons who had
6 purchased the weapons, I distributed them.
7 Q. You say the weapons came to the warehouse. Did you have a
8 warehouse, and if so, which warehouse or depot? And we're still talking
9 about that first stage when you were in the Crisis Staff of Grude
10 municipality; right?
11 A. Yes. My warehouse was at the tobacco station, which is located
12 in the centre of town, the centre of Grude, and after the Serbs left, we
13 moved that warehouse to the Drinovci area, and that was from mid-April
15 Q. You say that you relocated to Drinovci. Where in Drinovci?
16 A. In a forest there. It's called "the forest," "suma," and there
17 was a road there, and we hitched up some trailers where we stored goods
18 that were not supposed to get wet. We kept them dry in those trailers
19 and trucks.
20 Q. You said the so-called "forest." Was it really a forest or was
21 it just called a forest?
22 A. Well, yes, it was out in the open, a real proper forest.
23 Q. Now, why did you relocate the warehouse to this forest out in the
25 A. We moved the warehouse to prevent the Serbs from shelling us, as
1 they had done the previous one, so we thought that this would be a
2 provisional, temporary measure.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the issue of dates is
4 absolutely essential for the Judges. As I understand it, when the Serbs
5 attacked, the Grude Crisis Staff decided to get armed, and you played a
6 part in it. If I understand properly, this was during 1991, early 1992;
7 is that right?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. At some point in
10 time, the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was recognised
11 internationally by the international community. You know that, don't
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did know that.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You knew that. When the
15 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina had legal existence, did the
16 Grude Crisis Staff call the government led by Mr. Izetbegovic in order to
17 say, Look, the Serbs are attacking us. We need weapons. You must send
18 us troops, weapons, food, et cetera? Was that done or not?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, I was just a
20 warehouse-keeper, so in my job description, that wouldn't have been part
21 of it, so I didn't feel the need to do that. That wasn't my job.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does that mean you can't answer
23 my question?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know, I really don't
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Very well, thank you.
2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Majic, in response to my question of why the warehouse was
4 relocated to the forest, you said, among other things, that you didn't
5 think it would last long. What did you have in mind? What wouldn't last
7 A. The war, that the war wouldn't last long.
8 Q. All right. Now, tell me, please, how long did the warehouse stay
9 in the forest, up until when?
10 A. To the best of my recollections, it remained there until
11 September 1993.
12 Q. And when did you work in the warehouse?
13 A. I worked in the warehouse until mid-May 1993.
14 Q. Now, during the time the Crisis Staff was established for Grude
15 municipality, did you have any contact whatsoever with the other crisis
16 staffs in the other municipalities with respect to weapons procurement,
17 agreement about how to procure weapons, and things of that kind?
18 A. Until the beginning of 1992, we did not have any contacts between
19 the municipalities, none at all.
20 Q. And what happened at the beginning of 1992 to change that?
21 A. In 1992, the Inter-Municipality Crisis Staff was established, and
22 my warehouse became part of the regional warehouse.
23 Q. If I understand you correctly, that became the regional -- it
24 became the regional warehouse.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And were you still the warehouse-keeper in that same warehouse?
2 A. Yes, I continued to be the warehouse-keeper.
3 Q. Mr. Majic, what happened in April 1992 with that warehouse of
5 A. In April 1992, the Main Staff was established, and then my
6 warehouse became part of the Logistics Base of the Main Staff, but I
7 continued to do my job and work as a warehouse-keeper.
8 Q. Mr. Majic, after the beginning of the conflict with the Serbs on
9 the territory of HZ-HB
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said that you kept working
11 at your job of store-keeper, so does that mean that you were just doing
12 manual work, or you would take a rifle from one room to take it to
13 another room, or you give it to somebody, or does that mean that you had
14 more intellectual work, where you have to manage the entire logistics?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would just receive the goods and
16 issue the goods, according to decisions and lists. That was my job,
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Majic, after the beginning of the conflict with the Serbs on
21 the territory of HZ-HB
22 equipment or weapons from some other source?
23 A. When the HVO repelled the Serbs or, rather, when we took control
24 of some of the barracks that had been held by the Serbs, then I received
25 quite a lot of materiel and technical equipment, which I stored and then,
1 according to orders, issued.
2 Q. Do I understand you to say that the weapons came from the
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It was weapons that were there after the Serbs had left the
6 barracks. Did I understand you correctly?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right, fine. Now, who was your superior officer, Mr. Majic,
9 after the warehouse in April, as you said, of 1992 moved to the
10 Main Staff?
11 A. My superior from mid-1992, until July, was Mr. Bruno Stojic, who
12 was the assistant commander for logistics in the Main Staff.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, everything is going
14 very fast. You've just said something. When the JNA left, you said, you
15 somehow managed the weapons they'd left behind.
16 We've heard a lot of witnesses so far, and I was under the
17 understanding that when the JNA left their barracks, they took everything
18 with them, there was no weapon left. And now -- I've been in this
19 Tribunal for nearly six years, and this is the first time I hear what
20 you've just said; namely, that the JNA left weapons behind. So I'm
21 trying to understand.
22 Are you sure that the JNA left weapons behind?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's like this: The
24 JNA didn't leave of its own free will, of its own accord, voluntarily.
25 There was an offensive, and I do think that part of the materiel and
1 technical equipment remained, stayed behind.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now we can
3 understand. Thank you.
4 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Majic, let's clarify that. When did this, as you called it,
6 offensive take place? When did the conflict between the HVO and BH Army
7 take place? Can we clarify that?
8 A. No, not the BH Army, no.
9 Q. I do apologise. It's my mistake. Not the BH Army, but the HVO
10 and the JNA.
11 A. That happened in April, when we took control, as we were told --
12 1992, that is, yes.
13 Q. April 1992. What about the TO weapons that was in storage units
14 belonging to the TO? What about when that was seized from all the
15 municipal TOs by the JNA? When did that occur?
16 A. That occurred prior to the recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
17 meaning early 1991.
18 Q. Mr. Majic, these are two different things; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. On the one hand, the TO weapons being taken from TO storage units
21 or warehouses, and, on the other, weapons being seized after the HVO set
22 free or liberated the barracks previously held by the JNA; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. A while ago, you replied by saying that between mid-1992 and
25 July 1992, Bruno Stojic was your superior. He was assistant commander
1 for logistics in the Main Staff. Do you perhaps remember whether that
2 was in mid-1992 or could you more specific than that and remember the
3 actual month?
4 A. It was between April and the beginning of July.
5 Q. Fine. Then who became your superior after July 1992?
6 A. After July, Mr. Bruno Stojic was replaced by Mr. Ante Jelavic as
7 assistant commander for logistics in the Main Staff.
8 Q. For how long did Mr. Jelavic continue to be your superior in that
10 A. He remained as my superior up until mid-May 1993.
11 Q. Fine. And what happens then, mid-May 1993? What happened to the
13 A. The warehouse became part of the Procurement and Production
14 Sector, which itself was attached to the Defence Department.
15 Q. Did you change jobs in mid-May? Were you appointed to a
16 different position?
17 A. I was appointed assistant head for procurement and production
18 with the Defence Department.
19 Q. Deputy assistant with the Procurement and Production Sector?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And who was appointed assistant head?
22 A. Mr. Ante Jelavic.
23 Q. Mr. Majic, following mid-May 1993, following your appointment as
24 deputy assistant head of the Procurement and Production Sector, what did
25 your work comprise?
1 A. I was working more with the Construction Administration.
2 Q. So following May 1993, did you have any more contacts or anything
3 to do with the warehouse?
4 A. No, none whatsoever.
5 Q. Mr. Majic, can you now please explain to the Chamber if you knew
6 how materiel and technical equipment was procured. At first when you
7 were with the Crisis Staff as well as later when the warehouse became a
8 regional warehouse and eventually became the Logistics Base and, as such,
9 part of the Main Staff, did you know anything about how MTS, materiel and
10 technical equipment, was actually procured?
11 A. During the first stage of this operation, early 1992, I did know
12 how this was done. We bought all the equipment with our own money, and
13 the equipment was sourced from a number of different countries. I
14 remember that first stage, when we got some equipment from Slovenia
15 Q. What about later on, when the warehouse became a regional one,
16 the central warehouse? Do you know how procurement worked at that point?
17 A. No. After this, I no longer knew anything about how weapons were
19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: If I may. Witness, just a small question. You
20 said, "We bought with our own money." Whose money would that have been?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The money of the citizens of Grude
23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Majic, what about municipal crisis staffs or HVO municipal
1 crisis staffs, which is what they later became; did they get materiel and
2 technical equipment directly for HVO units in their own area?
3 A. Each staff got equipment for the units and for the crisis staffs
5 Q. What about this materiel and technical equipment; were any
6 documents produced about that or did it go straight to your warehouse?
7 A. I didn't know anything about materiel and technical equipment at
8 the time.
9 Q. You first worked as a warehouse-keeper with the Municipal
10 Crisis Staff and later with the Logistics Base. Were there any
11 warehouses in HVO units at the time?
12 A. Yes, each unit had its own warehouse. Rather, recruitment
13 districts had assistance -- assistant commanders for logistics.
14 Q. You mentioned recruitment districts or areas, so would that apply
15 to brigades and all the rest; right?
16 A. Yes, the brigades --
17 Q. Mr. Majic, in order to avoid this problem, can you please wait
18 until I finish asking my question before you start your answer.
19 You said recruitment districts or areas. What about the other
20 brigades, battalions and companies, well, to the extent that you can
22 A. Yes, I know all the units had their own warehouses.
23 Q. Did they all have assistant commanders for logistics?
24 A. That is understood.
25 Q. Mr. Majic, can you explain to the Trial Chamber how you
1 distributed MTS or materiel and technical equipment?
2 A. I would get a distribution order from my own superior, and then I
3 would act upon it.
4 Q. Were you the only one with the power to have MTS distributed, the
5 only one in that warehouse?
6 A. I had a deputy too.
7 Q. Can you tell us his name?
8 A. Marinko Crnogorac.
9 Q. Were you still the one who was really in charge of the warehouse?
10 A. Yes, I was the one in charge.
11 Q. Mr. Majic, were there ever any requests for MTS by the Army of
13 A. Yes. There were three different ways in which this happened.
14 The BH Army would send a request directly to municipal staffs. If
15 municipal staffs didn't have all the equipment, they would go to our
16 central warehouse to get more supplies. Then there were situations in
17 which they would address a certain warehouse directly -- or, rather,
18 there would be a distribution order dispatched to this warehouse. They
19 would then go to this warehouse, having seen my superior first. And the
20 third way was from MORH, to have equipment delivered to my warehouse, and
21 the distribution order would say that the equipment was meant for the
22 BH Army.
23 Q. What about this third channel or the third way? When the MTS
24 would arrive at your warehouse from MORH, is this the Ministry of Defence
25 of the Republic of Croatia
1 A. Yes, the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia
2 Q. You say the distribution order would then clearly state that this
3 was equipment for the BH Army; is my understanding correct?
4 A. Yes, it is. That's how it was.
5 Q. Mr. Majic, how long did your warehouse continue to issue MTS,
6 weapons and other such items, for the purposes of the BH Army?
7 A. For as long as I remained in my position as warehouse-keeper, so
8 until mid-May; that is, at least as far as I can tell you.
9 Q. Can you just tell me the year again?
10 A. 1993.
11 Q. I'll try to ask you a specific question, if you can remember
12 that. Can you remember anyone from the special MUP unit coming over --
13 the BH special MUP unit from Sarajevo
14 A. Yes, I remember this one situation. It struck me as slightly
15 strange. Sarajevo
17 Q. Mr. Majic, can you perhaps remember if anyone came from the
18 2nd Corps of the BH Army to pick up MTS?
19 A. People from the 2nd Corps came several times, but what I remember
20 is when they came in early May and picked up quite a considerable amount
21 of MTS.
22 Q. You say "early May." Which year?
23 A. 1993.
24 Q. Mr. Majic, how exactly did you technically issue MTS to members
25 of the BH Army? Was there a different procedure that was in place, as
1 opposed to the one used when you were issuing MTS to HVO units?
2 A. There was no difference, in terms of procedure. We used the same
3 procedure for both. They would dispatch a request to my superior. My
4 superior would then issue me with a distribution order, and then I would
5 execute the order.
6 Q. Mr. Majic, I'll first ask the usher's assistance.
7 We need our binder of documents to be handed to the witness. We
8 shall now be going through a number of documents in relation to what we
9 have been discussing.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.
11 Witness, before we look at the documents, you said something
12 which awakened my interest. You said that you had been extremely
13 surprised to see somebody from the MUP arrive in mid-February of 1993
14 concerning MTS. That person had walked away with some equipment. I
15 understand why you were surprised. Had you heard of those events which
16 had taken place in Prozor in October 1992?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, I did not mention any
18 event in Prozor myself. But another reason I was surprised is because
19 they came from Sarajevo
20 Serbs, and that's why I was surprised.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When this person came in
22 February 1993, as far as you know, had there been a conflict between the
23 ABiH and the HVO by then?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, so there had been clashes.
1 How can you explain that the "enemy," in inverted commas, is being
2 procured by you?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't consider the BH Army to
4 be a real enemy, or at least I didn't. It was a series of unfortunate
5 coincidences. There was a group of people, and this was something that
6 went back to the former Yugoslavia
7 accidents, trying to get more convenience for themselves and less
8 convenience for everyone else.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you were concerned,
10 it was a clique or small group of people from the former Yugoslavia
11 were behind the clashes between the HVO and the ABiH; is that right?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, they had their own
13 agents that they were infiltrating, their mission being to bring about
14 clashes between the Croats and the Bosniaks.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So when the person from the MUP
16 comes, you did not consider this person to be an enemy. Was this person
17 a friend or was he a fighter like you? Who was this person?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were other warehouse-keepers
19 in charge of MTS from those units.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But you did not answer my
21 question. Those people who come and pick up the equipment for the ABiH,
22 as far as you were concerned, were these brothers-in-arms, were these
23 friends, were these people like you?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Their insignia told me that they
25 were members of the BH Army.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Majic, if we could please try to shed some light on this.
4 The Presiding Judge asked you several times whether, when those people
5 came from the 2nd Corps and the special MUP units in Sarajevo, whether
6 you consider them as enemies. Who were they fighting, both when they
7 were with the 2nd Corps and in Sarajevo
8 A. I personally did not consider them to be my enemies.
9 Q. Fine. Let us move on to the documents that I have here.
10 Can we please first go to P586. It's the first document in your
12 Mr. Majic, this is a decision on the basic structure of the
13 Defence Department, dated September 1992, signed by Mr. Mate Boban. Let
14 me first ask you if before you were proofed for this case you'd ever set
15 eyes on this document.
16 A. No, never.
17 Q. Let's take a look at point 8, and we're going to look at the
18 place of this central warehouse, where it is in establishment terms. So
19 take a look at point 8. You said that as of May 1993, you were the
20 deputy assistant to the head in the Sector for Procurement and
21 Production, and here we see in point 8 on page 2 a list of eight
22 administrations within that same sector in September 1992.
23 Now, did your logistical base belong to one of these
24 administrations, and did it belong to the sector at all?
25 A. My logistical base did not belong here, did not come under this
2 Q. All right. Now let's look at document 2D, the next document,
3 00567. 2D00567 is the number, and that should be the next document in
4 your binder. And this is a decision on the internal organisation of the
5 Defence Department, dated the 10th of July, 1992. And on page 4, look at
6 the Sector for Procurement and Production, and the date is the 17th of
7 October. It's the 17th of October, 1992. That's how the transcript
8 should read.
9 Now, we have the structure of the sector here, and within that
10 structure, in October, was there a logistics base in any of these
12 A. No, there's no logistics base.
13 Q. All right. Now let's look at another document on establishment
14 and organisation. It is P2477, and this is a decision on the internal
15 organisation of the Defence Department, dated the 20th of May, 1993. And
16 I'd like to ask you to take a look at page 3 once again, point 7, in
17 which we have a breakdown of the administrations and everything that made
18 up the Sector for Procurement and Production within the Defence
20 Now, Mr. Majic, on page 4, do we see the appearance for the first
21 time here, the head of the Central Logistics Base, and does that coincide
22 with what you know, that as of May 1993, this Logistics Base became part
23 of the Procurement and Production Sector of the Defence Department?
24 A. Yes, that is what I know.
25 Q. Now, Mr. Majic, look at the next document, please, which is
1 2D01024, and just tell me when you've found it.
2 A. Yes, I've found it.
3 Q. All right, fine. This is a pass dated the 30th of June, 1992
4 signed by Mr. Bruno Stojic, and I'd like to ask you now, Mr. Majic,
5 whether Mr. Bruno Stojic during this period was your superior, and tell
6 Their Honours, please, which post he held or what the title of his
7 position was, and we can see that from this document.
8 A. At the time, he was my superior. He was the assistant commander
9 for logistics.
10 Q. We're talking about the 30th of June, 1992, so it would be a good
11 idea to repeat what we've already said. Who was your superior as of
12 July 1992?
13 A. My superior was Mr. Ante Jelavic.
14 Q. All right, thank you. Now, let's look at the next document,
15 which is 2D01 --
16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Ms. Nozica, it might be useful to have in the
17 record [indiscernible] as I'm saying it, that will be it, that the
18 previous document had the number 2D01024.
19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. 2D01 --
20 you're right, 2D01024. I saw the number and thought it was the right
21 one, but thank you for putting me right.
22 Q. So would you take a look at the document, once again, 2D01253
23 this time, and tell me when you've found it.
24 A. I've found it.
25 Q. Now, Mr. Majic, just briefly, here we have nine receipts making
1 up this document, and two entries for goods coming in; receipts for the
2 26th of February, 1992, and go up to the 30th of March, 1993. And this
3 first receipt, number 1/7 -- 117, we see your signature there, and we see
4 on the right who took over the MTS, the materiel and technical equipment.
5 Could you explain to the Trial Chamber what this document represents?
6 What is it?
7 A. Your Honours, this is a document which indicates how the Ministry
8 of the Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina purchased weapons in Slovenia
9 shipped them to the Drinovci warehouse and then -- well, Grude
10 municipality, and then pursuant to an agreement with the minister,
11 Mr. Delimustafic, and Mr. Stojic, that weaponry was distributed.
12 Q. Mr. Majic, so we're talking about the 26th of February, 1992,
13 there, and we're referring to the Ministry of the Interior of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Majic, do you happen to know Mr. Bahto Hamid?
17 A. I know him personally.
18 Q. All right, fine. Yes, Bahto Hamid. Now, after this receipt
19 number 117, we have a series of other receipts. I'd just like you to
20 confirm, if you can, to the Trial Chamber that all these nine receipts
21 tell us which people were concerned with this and that they were all
22 Bosniak Muslim names.
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. Now, would you explain something to the Trial Chamber, and in
25 order to do that, look at the penultimate page of the document. In
1 English, it is 2D75-0087 and 0088; and in the Croatian, it is 2D71-0331
2 and 0332.
3 Now, Mr. Majic, here we have goods entered and we can see that it
4 came from the MUP of Slovenia, goods received from and received by
5 Mr. Tihomir Majic, but we see the date is the 7th of April, 1992
6 from the previous receipts, we can see all this MTS, materiel and
7 technical equipment, was distributed from the 26th of February up until
8 the 30th of March, 1993 [as interpreted], and could you explain to the
9 Trial Chamber how come that the entry of goods was entered only on the
10 7th of April, 1992, was recorded then?
11 A. The standard practice for the first stage was this: I would
12 be -- I would be given a copy of the outgoing document, and then later on
13 I would record it.
14 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I want to make a correction.
15 Page 27, line 2, should read "March 1992" and not "1993."
16 Q. Now, Mr. Majic, if I understood you correctly, you received a
17 copy with the goods, a receipt saying that the goods had been sent. You
18 would be given a copy, and only once you received the original would you
19 enter the goods into the document; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, Mr. Majic, I'd like to move on to another set of documents
22 which would tell us something about what you told us a moment ago; that
23 is to say, the way in which goods were distributed from your warehouse,
24 the MTS, for the requirements of the BH Army. And in order to do that,
25 let us take a look at the first document, which is 2D00522.
1 Now, Mr. Majic, let me say by way of introduction that this is an
2 independence battalion for the defence of Mostar. It says, "The HVO" on
3 the document, and it is a request for ammunition, dated the 13th of July,
4 1992, and the request is signed by Arif Pasalic, and it is sent by the
5 HVO Municipal Staff of Mostar. Now, can you explain to the Trial Chamber
6 whether that was one of the ways in which the weapons were issued? And
7 you've already explained to us?
8 A. Yes. This is how they contacted the Municipal Staff. And if
9 there wasn't enough MTS in the Municipal Staff, then this would be
10 furnished by us or, rather, the Logistics Base would provide what was
12 Q. Mr. Majic, you said if there was not enough materiel and
13 technical equipment. Now, during the time that you were the
14 warehouse-keeper, that is to say, from the beginning of 1992 until
15 May 1993, did you have enough MTS to supply these requests by the BH Army
16 and also to satisfy the requests made by the HVO?
17 A. We always had a shortage of equipment.
18 Q. All right, thank you. Now let's look at the next document, which
19 is 2D0052 --
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let's stay with
21 document 2D0522. This is a document signed by Arif Pasalic on the
22 13th of July, 1992. As far as you know, on that day, on the
23 13th of July, 1992, was the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
24 state, recognised as such by the international community?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be quite frank, I don't know.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't know. Regarding this
2 document we have in front of us, this is the first time I've seen it, but
3 does this show that Mr. Arif Pasalic belongs to the Independent Battalion
4 for the defence of Mostar of -- belonged to the HVO Independent
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can see that.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does this document show that
8 Mr. Arif Pasalic asked the HVO headquarters -- or, rather, sent them a
9 letter regarding weapons?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, it does show that.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is this Arif Pasalic the one
12 who is going to find himself responsible for the ABiH in Mostar?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, to the best of my knowledge.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Majic, just to make things quite clear for the transcript,
17 this request is sent to the HVO of the Municipal Staff of Mostar; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, Mr. Majic, during the examination-in-chief, you spoke about
20 these cases, and they said sometimes they would contact the municipal
21 staffs, and if the municipal staffs did not have enough, did not have the
22 quantity specified and "... we had them, then the Logistics Base where I
23 worked would supply the goods." Did I understand you correctly?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now we're going to deal with similar documents, just to lay the
1 foundations for that, and look at the next document, 2D00523. This is,
2 as we can see from the heading, from the top part -- it says: "The
3 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina." We see the ARBiH, the BH Army, and the
4 1st Mostar Brigade. The date is the 31st of October, 1992, and here we
5 can also see that it is signed by the commander, Mr. Arif Pasalic. And
6 this request once again went through the HVO Municipal Staff Mostar,
7 Logistics Department for the Technical Service. Can you confirm,
8 Mr. Majic, that this once again is the same procedure as we saw a moment
9 ago and explained earlier on?
10 A. Yes, it is the same.
11 Q. Can you just tell us whether it's the same procedure?
12 A. Yes, it is the same procedure as in the previous document.
13 Q. Now let's take a look at the next document, which is --
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.
15 Witness, this Arif Pasalic, in the previous document the
16 signature must have been in his name, because they're not the same
17 signatures. Do you agree with me?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do agree.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But am I wrong in
20 saying that back in July Mr. Pasalic was in the HVO, and in October he
21 was with the ABiH?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Looking at both
24 documents, one could even believe it was the same typewriter that was
25 used, but that should be checked by an expert. But besides that, do we
1 realise that we have the same addressee in both documents, HVO, Opsinski
2 [phoen], Stozer, Mostar? So is it the same addressee? Sorry for the
3 spelling, the way I pronounce names.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's precisely it, the
5 same addressee.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we believe that this was
7 the same typewriter that was used? Look.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, not at all, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you don't think so.
10 Very well, Ms. Nozica.
11 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
12 Q. But Mr. Majic, you're certainly no graphologist, no handwriting
13 expert. Therefore, you can't be certain whether it is or not, in fact;
14 am I right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Let's move on to 2D524. Tell me as soon as you've found it, sir.
17 A. I've got it.
18 Q. The document bears the date the 12th of December, 1992, if I may
19 draw your attention to the date. It is a request to the municipal
20 headquarters of the HVO, Logistics Section, signed by Mithad Hajdar,
21 commander. It reads:
22 "Request for equipment and materiel. Given the fact that our
23 brigade has been carrying out combat operations in the Igman area on
24 lifting the blockade around the city of Sarajevo, we address you with
25 this request for delivery of the following MTS that is now required."
1 Different kinds of weapons are listed there, and so on and so
3 Mr. Majic, is this one of those requests that were dispatched to
4 municipal staffs?
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. Can we please move on to the next aspect, as you said, a way in
7 which the BH Army addressed the HVO, you, personally, in order to have
8 MTS delivered. Can you please now go to 2D1252.
9 Mr. Majic, the electronic copy of this document is not
10 particularly legible, but the date is the 29th of September, 1992. We
11 don't see the addressee. The text reads:
12 "Based on the agreement between Mr. Arif Pasalic, commander of
13 the 1st Mostar Brigade, commander of the Operative Group for South-East
15 Bregava Brigade, Stolac, on taking offensive action with the objective of
16 clearing of the territory in the direction of Nevesinje, please approve
17 the following equipment: Mortar shells, artillery rounds," the types are
18 specified, "and ammunition," with the types requested specified.
19 The document is not signed but we see the names there, Arif
20 Pasalic, Drago Poljak, Bajro Pizovic.
21 Mr. Majic, did you receive requests like this at your own
22 logistics base, and how, if so?
23 A. There were numerous requests like this, many, many requests like
24 this. One of the ways was to address my superior, who would then issue
25 the distribution order and order the -- order hand-overs of MTS.
1 Sometimes copies arrived of these documents.
2 Q. So if I understand you correctly, you're telling us about the
3 procedure. Requests such as this one would be forwarded to your
4 superior; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And he would then draw up a distribution order; right?
7 A. Yes, right.
8 Q. But sometimes the distribution order would be a document like
9 this, showing exactly who is submitting the request?
10 A. Yes, that's quite right.
11 Q. And then based on the distribution order, you would distribute
12 equipment and materiel to whoever had their name clearly displayed in the
13 distribution order?
14 A. Yes, that's right.
15 Q. Can we please move on to the next document, and this is now again
16 something about the distribution of MTS.
17 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, Your Honour. We
18 started late today, and I thought we -- [no interpretation].
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, let's have a break now, a
20 20-minute break.
21 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica.
24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
25 Q. Mr. Majic, can you please now look at 2D00955. Have you found
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you explain to the Chamber what this is about? This is a
4 certificate of the HVO, Municipal Staff Grude, the 29th of April, 1992
5 Can you explain to the Chamber, based on what you know, do you know these
6 persons? What exactly is this document about?
7 A. This is the Sarajevo
8 the Grude Municipal Staff. It is clear that this gentleman, Ante Busic,
9 is issuing certain equipment, and a gentleman who at the time was
10 commander, Nikola Nikolic, approves this so that the goods can be taken
11 to Sarajevo
12 as it reads, is Enver Baskovic. I know Mr. Ante Busic, and I know
13 Mr. Nikola Nikolic personally.
14 Q. If I understand you correctly, this document shows that Mr. Busic
15 issued this equipment from 1 to 9; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And this commander, 1st Lieutenant Nikola Nikolic, issued this
19 A. Yes, to transport this merchandise.
20 Q. Very well. Mr. Majic, do you know if it was necessary to issue
21 these authorisations every time weapons were transported at the time?
22 For example, you issuing equipment -- this isn't you in this document,
23 but when you or anyone else did that, was a pass required, regardless of
24 the fact whether it was your logistics base that was issuing equipment,
25 or whether equipment was merely moving through HZ-HB territory?
1 A. Each transport that occurred needed a pass or a permit to pass
2 through an area.
3 Q. Mr. Majic, you said during your examination-in-chief that there
4 were cases when weapons were obtained for the benefit of the BH Army in
5 the following way: The Defence Ministry of the Republic of Croatia
6 deliver the goods to your logistics base, but the weapons would be
7 clearly marked as either for the BH Army or for the armed forces.
8 Can we now please go to a series of documents discussing that,
9 the first being 2D00630.
10 Have you found that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. Please explain. This is a request dated the
13 10th of April, 1992, issued by the Defence Ministry of the Republic of
15 the 106th Orasje Brigade of the HVO, BH armed forces, and then a list
16 with the names of persons who are supposed to take delivery. How exactly
17 did you take delivery of this equipment, and on what basis did you then
18 go on and distribute it?
19 A. I would first receive this in my warehouse, and then these
20 gentlemen would bring a distribution order. I would then act on it and
21 distribute equipment with the proviso that all of the distribution orders
22 were produced by my superior, Mr. Jelavic at the time.
23 Q. When you received this equipment, did you also receive an order
24 like this showing exactly who the equipment was for?
25 A. Yes, I always received a copy of the order.
1 Q. That's fine. Can we now move on to the next document, please.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A small detail, Witness.
3 Ms. Nozica didn't ask you about it.
4 This is a document from Mr. Cermak, the assistant defence
5 minister, so he's an important person of authority in the Republic of
7 materiel listed from 1 to 8. I am interested in the second line. It
8 says: "HVO, 106th Brigade, Orasje BiH armed forces."
9 Back in October 1992, did the BiH have a unit or not in Orasje?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So there was only the
12 HVO 106th?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what the title appears to be
14 indicating, but there were Muslims too or, rather, Bosniaks in that
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So there were also Muslims, you
17 say. I can see that it is written "BiH armed forces." This is a
18 document from Mr. Cermak. He could be a witness, because he's here
19 anyway. Does this not show that for the Ministry of Defence of the
20 Republic of Croatia
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I don't understand the
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is a complex question.
24 You might not be able to answer it.
25 You were a military. As such, when you look at this document --
1 or could the one reading the document conclude that for General
2 Lieutenant Cermak, the 106th Brigade is part of the BiH armed forces?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is obvious.
4 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
5 Can we now move on to the next document, please, and the document
6 bears the following number -- or, rather, it's a rather different
7 document, in terms of who is receiving weapons, 3D00436.
8 Q. Mr. Majic, again a request signed by Mr. Cermak, the same date as
9 the previous one, but it reads:
10 "For issuance of materiel resources for the needs of the central
11 background base Grude, at the disposal of the BH Army Foca-Gorazde."
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, could all the microphones
13 not being used be switched off, please. There is a lot of interference
14 and noise. We can't keep on interpreting because we can't hear counsel.
15 Thank you.
16 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... in order for you to receive
18 the weapons, in order for you to receive a copy of this request. What
19 did you do next?
20 A. We would take delivery of the MTS, and then there would be a
21 distribution order from my superior and we would follow that. As a
22 result, we would distribute and issue MTS.
23 Q. All right.
24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I saw the warning from the
25 interpreters. I will make sure that I'm facing the microphone.
1 Q. Can we please move on to the next document, 3D00437. Again, a
2 request by Mr. Cermak, or he's the person who signed the document. The
3 date this time around is the 16th of October, 1992. Was this request
4 followed -- or this order followed in the same way as all the previous
5 ones as you have described to us?
6 A. Yes, the same method was applied.
7 Q. Mr. Majic, we see the name Sahinpasic, Senad, written towards the
8 bottom of the page. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber whether you're
9 familiar with this person and whether this person, for the purposes of
10 the BH Army, came to see you in order to get weapons? And if so, how
11 many times?
12 A. Mr. Sahinpasic came several times to Grude to get MTS.
13 Q. Was that for purposes of the BH Army?
14 A. Yes, every time.
15 Q. Fine. We see the timeline here in these. And the next one is
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.
18 Witness, in this document, we can see that Lieutenant
19 General Cermak wrote "BH Army" and "HVO." I can see in your language
20 that there is a little "i" between B and H, so for him there is the
21 BH Army and the HVO. I'm a little lost, because I see that after the
22 word "HVO," we have: "Gorazde, Foca, Trnovo and Visegrad." As far as
23 you know, in Gorazde, was there only the HVO?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have that sort of
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have no knowledge about it.
2 What about Foca and Trnovo and Visegrad?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I know where these
4 towns are, but ...
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You see, when one reads this
6 document, there were 30 RPGs, mortars, 82 millimetres, 10 of them; M-80,
7 there are 30 pieces, et cetera. It's hard to see how this is distributed
8 between the ABiH and the HVO, because it says for the BH Army and HVO,
9 but regarding those places. So one could believe and infer from that
10 that all the pieces were going to be sent to Gorazde, Foca, Trnovo, and
11 Visegrad. But if there's no ABiH in those four localities, what is the
12 ABiH going to get? That's the question, but you can't answer it, or can
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was no more than
15 warehouse-keeper. I didn't look into matters such as these. I wasn't
16 even thinking about that, let alone know anything of it.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you said that you were a
18 warehouse-keeper. Well, I was one, too, when I did my military service.
19 I was in charge of weapons. I would open the boxes and count the
20 weapons, but I would also think whilst doing it. What about you? You
21 can't answer it?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no, I can't. I don't
23 have the knowledge, I don't know. I have no specific knowledge for me to
24 be able to answer that.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay. We might see this with
1 other witnesses.
2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, you said it.
3 There will be a witness coming in this week who will be able to explain
4 that, whether Gorazde, Foca, Trnovo, Visegrad and so on, whether there
5 was any HVO there.
6 Q. But as we're on this document, then we can see, sir, indubitably
7 that two names taking over these weapons, Sulejman Kalidzic and
8 Sahinpasic Senad were the people who took delivery before that. You said
9 Sahinpasic Senad, before that and after that, would take delivery of
10 weapons mostly for the BH Army. Am I right in saying that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now take a look at the next document, which is 2D898. And we
13 have here the same designation signed by the same man, Mr. Cermak. It is
14 the 24th of November, once again 1992, and it is a donation for the
15 requirements of the 109th Brigade, Doboj. And Mesic, Medzid is
16 mentioned, who is supposed to come and take delivery from Doboj. I want
17 to ask you whether this material reached you in Grude, and according to
18 the distribution order, did you hand it over to Mr. Mesic when he came to
19 collect them?
20 A. Yes, all these cases were done in the same way. I would act upon
21 the instructions and delivery notices.
22 Q. Now, the last document in this series is 2D0311. Have you found
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And we're dealing with the 30th of March, 1993. It is
1 authorisation to issue MTS for the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
2 through the Logistics Base of Grude, and it is signed by the higher
3 advisor, professional advisor, Vladimir Zagorac. This is already an
4 exhibit, but would you look at the last page of the Croatian text of this
5 document, 2D0311. And here we have a fax excerpt, and we can see that it
6 was sent on the 30th of March, 1993, to Bruno Stojic and Safet Orucevic
7 at 0905 hours. Now, do you know which affairs Mr. Safet Orucevic dealt
8 with before that and then --
9 A. For the BH Army, he procured MTS.
10 Q. We'll just go over the subject of transportation very quickly.
11 And in order to do that, when it comes to permission granted, look at
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let me ask you a
14 question that might appear to be simple, but it might shed light on many
16 Looking at this document, the date is the 30th of March. It
17 comes from the Ministry of Defence. It is an order for distribution to
18 the ABiH of military equipment, major equipment, because we have RPG-7s,
20 military man, what do you think; would weapons be given to an enemy, or
21 to friends, or to at least a neutral party?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The weapons are given to friends.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you would tend to give the
24 weapons to your friends. My question was a very basic question, but so
25 was your answer.
1 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Now let's go on, the same topic following on from
3 Judge Antonetti's questions. 2D01254 is the next document number. This
4 is a letter signed by the commander of the 4th Corps, Arif Pasalic.
5 2D01254 is the number. 01254, yes, that's right. This document,
6 although it's rather illegible, but we can nonetheless see that it's the
7 commander of the 4th Corps, Mr. Arif Pasalic, who has signed it. The
8 date of the document is, as far as we can see in my version, is the
9 9th of December. Well, anyway, it's December 1992, that's the date,
10 although the day is unclear. And Mr. Pasalic is saying:
11 "Please issue a permit for uninterrupted transport of material
12 and equipment (MTS) via the following route: Mostar-Jablanica-Prozor-
13 Gornji Vakuf-Bugojno-Travnik-Vitez-Visoko and once again Mostar.
14 Tell me, please, Mr. Majic, you haven't seen this document
15 before, have you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. But I'm sure you'll be able to clarify some points. What was
18 there in Visoko at that time, to the best of your knowledge?
19 A. It was the Central Logistics Base for the BH Army. That was what
20 was in Visoko.
21 Q. All right, fine. Now, the drivers and vehicles are listed for
22 the MTS transport, and then it says, in the middle of the document,
23 transport from Visoko to Mostar departs on the 31st of December, 1992
24 Now, why was the transport due to depart from Visoko? Is that the
25 Logistics Base?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right, thank you. Now, this transport going from Visoko to
3 Mostar, we have the following: We have the MTS, and then it says "VST."
4 What is VST?
5 A. It's a recoilless cannon.
6 Q. And we see that there were two pieces of those. Then we have
7 mortars, howitzers, mortar barrels, launchers, fuses for mines, and so
8 on. From this document, it follows that permission for the transport of
9 these weapons is being requested; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now let's look at the second page, and here it says the HVO
12 Main Staff allowed permission for the MTS transportation to take place;
13 is that right?
14 A. Yes, there's a signature.
15 Q. And a stamp too?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Witness, among others, is that the permit granted for each
19 A. Yes, that was standard practice.
20 Q. Well, let's look at another such document, which is 2D01041, and
21 it dates to March 1993, and this permission was granted and signed by
22 Mr. Bruno Stojic. Yes, the number is correct, 2D01041.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right, fine. Now let's take a look at the next document,
25 which is 2D229. This is a document dated the 26th of February, 1993
1 It's an exhibit already. I'd like to draw your attention to point 2 of
2 this document, para 2, where Mr. Arif Pasalic says, and he's writing a
3 piece of information to the Staff of the Supreme Command of the
4 Armed Forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Sefer Halilovic,
5 and here is what he says in point 2, para 2:
6 "Mr. Safet Orucevic successfully performed the main tasks for us
7 until now regarding the entrance of goods with the HVO. He was
8 successful until now."
9 Now, this is Mr. Arif Pasalic writing. To the best of your
10 knowledge, this cooperation between the HVO and the BH Army in certain
11 areas, not to say overall, was it as successful as was stated in this
13 A. Yes, and that is based on -- well, we can refer to what I said
14 first, to the effect that Safet Orucevic was the main person for the
15 procurement of MTS for the BH Army.
16 Q. Mr. Majic, apart from the ways that we have described in which
17 the BH Army procured weapons, which mostly came from the Logistics Base
18 or via the Logistics Base in Grude where you were working, were there any
19 other ways in which the BH Army procured weapons?
20 A. Yes. The BH Army used humanitarian convoys as well.
21 Q. Before the humanitarian convoys, before we get to that, do you
22 know that the BH Army got weapons directly from the Ministry of Defence
23 of Croatia
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And since you mentioned humanitarian convoys, did you know that
1 the BH Army used humanitarian convoys to receive aid?
2 A. I do have knowledge of that, and I have proof and evidence.
3 Q. What do you know about that? How do you know that the BH Army
4 used humanitarian convoys?
5 A. If it was found that they used humanitarian convoys to carry MTS,
6 our police would seize those materials and equipment, and that would be
7 taken to my warehouse, and they would say who it was taken from, in what
8 way, and so on. And then on the basis of an authorisation from my
9 superior, I would distribute that MTS.
10 Q. Now look at 2D8, please, and tell me when you've found it.
11 A. I have found it.
12 Q. This document is dated the 23rd of February, 1993, and we can see
13 that at the Doljani check-point, a vehicle with Gorazde license plates
14 with a trailer was stopped and that it was transporting humanitarian aid
15 for the Merhamet organisation of Gorazde, and that a detailed search was
16 conducted at the Military Police Administration at Ljubuski, and that it
17 was established that apart from the humanitarian aid in the vehicles,
18 there was military equipment found as well.
19 Now, take a look at page 5, I think it is, in your document, and
20 it is page 2D030006 of the Croatian version, which would correspond to
21 page 2D in the English, 030118 onwards. Mr. Majic, we have a list of
22 weapons seized; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And then we have photo documentation which shows the type of
25 weapons that were seized; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So, Mr. Majic, is that the convoy that you mentioned a moment
3 ago, when you said that when this MTS was uncovered, it was sent to your
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, finally, Mr. Majic, asked several times by Judge Antonetti,
7 you said that you did not know the answer to some of the questions. You
8 said that you were just a warehouse-keeper during that period, and I'd
9 like to ask you now to explain to the Court how the warehouse in the
10 forest functioned from April 1992 until May 1993, and whether it required
11 your full engagement. How much time did you, in fact, spend in that
12 forest, in that warehouse?
13 A. Your Honours, day and night, 'round the clock, 24 hours. I was
14 there in the warehouse all the time.
15 Q. Did you have to provide security for the warehouse?
16 A. Yes. We had to take care of security issues for the warehouse,
17 unloading the MTS that were not supposed to get wet.
18 Q. I see. Now, in the area, was there any way in which you could
19 lock it up, make it secure, store it, or were these MTS accessible to
20 everyone, in view of where they were located?
21 A. Yes, it was out in the open, as I said, so to all intents and
22 purposes accessible, only with the guards securing it.
23 Q. Well, is that why you said that you spent almost 24 hours there,
24 'round the clock?
25 A. Yes, that was one of the reasons.
1 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Majic.
2 Thank you, Your Honours. That completes my examination-in-chief
3 of this witness.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I was looking at the
5 photographs of the lorries, the arms that were seized, the reports of
6 questioning of the people who were carrying these items. You said that
7 you saw these weapons, since these were stored in your warehouse. If I
8 understand correctly, because this is rather complicated, the
9 humanitarian convoy, which was supposed to carry food and aid, this
10 convoy called "Ahmet" [as interpreted] was supplied in Zagreb
11 where it went to fetch the weapons, and then these were put on the
12 trucks. And then there was a police control, and these arms were
13 discovered on board these trucks.
14 According to you, did these weapons come from Zagreb or not?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you say that these weapons
17 came from Zagreb
18 weapons, and in light of the equipment here, do you believe that this was
19 provided by the Republic of Croatia
20 of Croatia
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Frankly, I don't know.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't know. Because there
23 are two possibilities. Either Ahmet [as interpreted] has weapons
24 delivered, and we don't know where the weapons come from, from which
25 country they come from, and this agency then carries these weapons in the
1 direction of the ABiH, or it is the Republic of Croatia
2 of this and has the weapons carried under the cover of a humanitarian
3 convoy. But you can't answer my question, can you?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all I can infer, based
5 on this, is this: If they could take delivery without any hindrance at
6 all in Croatia
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But did you have a look at
9 these weapons? We have a list and the reference numbers before us.
10 Where did these weapons come from, according to you?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't remember.
12 There were so many weapons passing through my warehouse, it's difficult
13 to remember all the specifics.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you can't say anything about
15 it. Very well.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I can't.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me now turn to the Defence
18 counsel of the other accused.
19 Mr. Kovacic, third Defence team.
20 MR. KOVACIC: The Praljak Defence has no any question to this
21 witness. Thank you so much.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic.
23 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Petkovic Defence
24 has no questions for this witness, either. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fifth Defence team.
1 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] No questions,
2 Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 6D.
4 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
5 Thank you.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 1D.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: Good afternoon, Mr. President. Good afternoon,
8 Your Honours.
9 We have no questions, although we do wish to thank the gentleman
10 for coming here to give his testimony.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, it might be a good
12 idea to have the break now and start off your cross-examination after the
13 break. What do you think? Ms. West, would you like to start straight
15 MS. WEST: Good afternoon, Mr. President, everyone on the
16 Chamber, and everyone in and around the courtroom.
17 I could start right now, if you'd like.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In that case, please proceed.
19 MS. WEST: Mr. President, may I proceed?
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.
21 Cross-examination by Ms. West:
22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Majic. My name is Kim West. I'm from the
23 Office of the Prosecution, and I'm going to ask you some questions.
24 A. Good afternoon.
25 Q. The questions I will ask you, many of them, to start off with,
1 will actually include the Defence binder, so if you could have both of
2 those accessible.
3 I'm just going to go back to the testimony from this last hour,
4 in which you indicated, in answer to a question, that the HVO and the
5 BH Army cooperated in certain areas. Would you clarify for us in what
6 areas that the BH Army and the HVO Army cooperated?
7 A. Your Honours, I can't do that. I don't have that kind of
8 knowledge. I can't be specific about it, and I don't want to commit.
9 Q. But nonetheless, you understood that there was cooperation;
11 A. Yes, in several different places.
12 Q. And that cooperation also existed over different periods of time;
14 A. Yes, that's right.
15 Q. And, for example, that cooperation between the HVO and the
16 Muslims, the BH Army, would include much of 1992 in Mostar. Would you
17 agree with that?
18 A. I agree.
19 Q. And that cooperation would even creep into the beginning of 1993
20 in Mostar; correct?
21 A. As far as I know, that's correct, as far as I know.
22 Q. And so when Judge Antonetti asked you quite candidly whether you
23 would give weapons to friends or enemies, you indicated that you would
24 give weapons to friends. Do you remember that testimony?
25 A. Yes, I remember, and it's true.
1 Q. And so those friends would include the BH Army in Mostar, at
2 least in 1992; correct?
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 Q. And that those friends would also include the BH Army in Mostar
5 in the early part of 1993; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Although you've indicated that you have limited knowledge of the
8 cooperation, would you agree with me that there was also cooperation in
9 other areas of Bosnia
10 A. My information suggests that that is true. I don't have that
11 much information or close information just to be sure.
12 Q. And recently the Trial Chamber heard from Stipo Buljan, who is
13 the head of welfare for the HVO in the Posavina and, later, the Republic.
14 And at page 36822, he was posed this question, and the question was:
15 "And so you'll agree with me that when the Muslims and Croats
16 were fighting each other in Mostar in 1993, the Muslims and Croats were
17 cooperating with each other in Posavina?"
18 And his answer was: "Yes, that's right."
19 Mr. Majic, is that consistent with your understanding as well?
20 A. As far as I know, generally speaking, that would be the case.
21 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that another area of cooperation was
22 in Sarajevo
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And recently the Trial Chamber heard from Dragan Pinjuh that in
1 in regard to a question before Judge Antonetti, and that is the
2 following, where the question was:
3 "In other words, until November of 1993, the HVO and the ABiH had
4 a common enemy, the Serbs?"
5 And the answer was: "Yes."
6 Sir, do you agree with that assessment?
7 A. Yes, that's right, we had the same enemy. I can tell you, from
8 my own experience, that we never considered the BH Army to be a real
9 enemy. I said something a while ago to the effect that when the Serbs
10 wanted to make it easier on themselves, they would infiltrate their own
11 agents to stir up trouble between the Croats and the Bosniaks, which then
12 made their lives easier, for at least a year and a half, until the
13 Washington Accords were signed, and then we joined forces again to free
14 our territories from the enemy that we shared, the Serbs.
15 Q. Sir, in regard to that issue, today Judge Antonetti asked you
16 whether you considered the Muslims to be brothers-in-arms or friends, and
17 your response to that question was:
18 "I personally did not consider them to be my enemies."
19 And so my question to you is: If you personally did not believe
20 that, did you know other people who did consider them to be your enemies?
21 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm going to object. What is the
22 relevance of all of this, and what does it have to do with this
23 gentleman's testimony? It's beyond the scope of direct examination and
24 it's totally irrelevant. There was a conflict.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, what is the relevance
1 of your question?
2 MS. WEST: Sir, this -- this witness is being brought here to
3 indicate to you that the HVO gave weapons and supplies to the BiH Army
4 equally and without disregard to when the request came in. This
5 gentleman indicated that he had no personal animosity towards the
6 Muslims. Obviously, it's the -- it's the Prosecution's case that there
7 was an animosity, and I'm asking him to speak further on that particular
8 issue. This was a question that was brought up by the Bench.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may briefly respond.
10 First of all, this gentleman can't speak for anybody else. He's
11 speaking for himself.
12 Secondly, we've had testimony about the enormous amount of help
13 that the ABiH was receiving from the Republic of Croatia
14 the Croats within Bosnia-Herzegovina. I fail to see the relevance of
15 this line of questioning, keeping in mind that there is a conflict that
16 goes on for a period of time off and on in different areas, and in
17 different areas there's a different level of cooperation, and also
18 keeping in mind that if she's going to go into that, that perhaps she
19 should also ask the gentleman how much of the arms and funding that
20 Izetbegovic was receiving from the Islamic community, how much of that
21 was going into their warehouses. That is a question that I would really
22 like to know.
23 MR. KHAN: Mr. President, Your Honours, good afternoon.
24 With respect, I would join my learned friend Mr. Karnavas'
25 objection in this regard. The question is, in fact, extremely wide. Of
1 course, it may well be the case that in a population, there are a number
2 of disparate views. That is hardly a matter of controversy between the
4 Your Honours, the reason this witness is being called is the core
5 evidence, and I'd ask my learned friend to controvert -- seek to
6 controvert that, is that a lot of weapons were given to the Army of
8 Now, Your Honour, the other issues are somewhat tangental, and
9 although the core allegation may not suit the Prosecution's case, the
10 core thrust of this witness's testimony, I would ask Your Honours that
11 the Prosecution be directed to seek to controvert that core aspect, and
12 that is the purpose for which we called this witness.
13 Your Honours, of course, in a community it is not being said for
14 a moment that there is a homogeneous attitude from all the people of a
15 Herceg-Bosna or all the people of Croatia or all the people of Bosnia
17 disparate views, and that is not controverted by the Defence of
18 Mr. Stojic.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
20 I agree with Mr. Khan, the Croatian Community was not
21 homogeneous, but all the more reason for the witness to tell us what his
22 view on the situation was and how he perceived the situation. This is
23 what Ms. West is trying to highlight. Of course, he can't speak on
24 behalf of other people. What we are interested in is what he thinks
25 about this.
1 Ms. West, put your question. Make sure your question is a
2 precise question, since you want to know what he thinks of this.
3 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. Mr. Witness, in your position at the warehouse, having the
5 opportunity to send out supplies and arms to different people, different
6 groups all across Bosnia-Herzegovina, you must have had an opportunity to
7 be in the position to speak to both people from the BH Army and people
8 from the HVO Army; and as a result of those experiences, what is your
9 personal opinion in regard to whether the BH Army or Muslim soldiers were
10 the enemy or the friend of the HVO?
11 A. From where I stood at the beginning, they were friends, but then,
12 as I said, they were manipulated by - what should I call them? - the
13 instigators of chaos, who wanted to get the two parties to quarrel so
14 that they might then prevail, and these people were our true enemy.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you said that earlier
16 on, and then Ms. West moved on to something else, but now you return to
17 that previous topic, and I must say that this is the first time I've been
18 hearing this. I'm therefore keenly interested, and I try to understand
19 what you're saying.
20 If I understand properly, on the one hand we have the Serbs, and
21 on the other, the ABiH and the HVO. But then you added this: You said
22 that the Serbs infiltrated between the individuals -- between the ABiH
23 and the HVO, in order to create problems between the ABiH and the HVO.
24 Is that what you said before?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour. That's what
1 I had in mind. That's what I said.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is a first. This is the
3 first time I'm hearing this. What enables you to say that?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My information concerning Jugo
5 officers in Yugoslavia
6 the appointments of Serbs to all diplomatic positions, to all
7 intelligence positions, because that's what they did, and all this anger
8 and all the defeats that we inflicted on them, they did everything within
9 their power to take revenge, to infiltrate, and to seek out a third
10 enemy, and that's what they were drawing upon.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But do you have any evidence in
12 support of what you say or are these just thoughts, individual thoughts
13 of yours?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a result of my life in
16 MS. WEST:
17 Q. Mr. Majic, you've indicated that there was some cooperation in
18 Mostar in 1992, the beginning of 1993, in Posavina and in Sarajevo
19 would you agree with me that in those areas it would not have been
20 unusual for the HVO to send supplies to the Muslims or to allow transport
21 of supplies to the Muslims in those areas of cooperation?
22 A. No problem at all, as far as I knew.
23 Q. And indeed, by doing so, the HVO was helping to fight a common
24 enemy, and in those places the common enemy would have been the Serbs?
25 A. Yes, that's right.
1 Q. So what I'd like to do now is go through a number of the exhibits
2 that you reviewed with Ms. Nozica. So if you can actually have both
3 binders available to you, and I'd like to categorise each of these
5 I'm going to go directly through -- I believe they should be
6 chronological, and the first is 2D00311. Perhaps that's at the end.
7 Do you have that?
8 A. 311.
9 Q. Now, this is a document that you testified -- and it was
10 highlighted that Mr. Stojic received this by fax, and that would be the
11 third page. When we go through these documents, we're going to highlight
12 something different about them, and the difference is going to be to
13 where these supplies were going.
14 So would you agree with me that in this case, the person who was
15 responsible for the materials to pick up is Mr. Seta, Suajb from
17 first page of the B/C/S, do you see it says responsible individual for
18 material pickup is Mr. Seta, Suajb from Sarajevo; do you see that?
19 A. Yes, Suajb Seta. Yes, that's right.
20 Q. And as you've already indicated, you would agree that Sarajevo
21 in March of 1993, was an area of cooperation between the HVO and the BiH?
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23 Q. And so this would not be unusual [Realtime transcript read in
24 error "usual"] for the HVO to be allowing distribution of resources to
25 the BH Army in Sarajevo
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. Let's go to 2D00522, and this might be in the beginning of the
3 Defence binder -- of the Defence binder. It's 2D00522, and it's the
4 other binder. My apologies. 522.
5 All right. This is a document that you talked about on direct,
6 and this is signed by Commander Pasalic. And you -- you would agree with
7 me that Arif Pasalic was the commander of the 4th Corps of the BH Army;
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And this document is dated July 13th, 1992, and would it be fair
11 to say that that is a period of time -- that would be the height of
12 cooperation between the HVO and the BH Army in Mostar?
13 A. I don't really know about the date when.
14 Q. Nonetheless, this is 1992, in Mostar, and that was a period of
15 time when the Serbs --
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Khan.
17 MR. KHAN: Mr. President, thank you.
18 Just one correction to the transcript. Page 57, line 5, I
19 believe my learned friend's question, accurately put, was that it would
20 not be unusual, rather than usual, which the transcript currently reads.
21 I believe that's right.
22 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. Khan. That is right.
23 Q. So, sir, July of 1992, this is a period of time within a month
24 after the HVO and the BiH got the Serbs out of Mostar; correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So if you can go to 2D00523, it should be just the next one.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. This is another request from Commander Pasalic. It's
4 October 1992
5 "Considering upcoming combat actions and the tasks of the
6 1st Mostar Brigade, we require the following type of ... ammunition ..."
7 Would you also agree with me that this is another document that
8 was issued in 1992 when the HVO and the BH Army were cooperating together
9 in Mostar?
10 A. I agree. As far as the dates are concerned, if that's what's
11 indicated, well, then, no reason not to believe it. Right?
12 Q. And there was also no reason to not help the Muslim Army with
13 ammunition and hand-grenades during that time; correct?
14 A. As far as I know, what you're saying is true.
15 Q. If you can go to the next document. It should just be the next
16 one, 524. This is a document that you looked at earlier. It's dated
17 December 1992. It's from a commander, and it says:
18 "Considering the combat actions by our brigade in the area of
19 Igman on breaking the blockade around the city of Sarajevo, we are
20 contacting you with a request ..."
21 So this regards sending MTS to Sarajevo. This was a period of
22 time when the BH Army and the HVO were cooperating in Sarajevo; right?
23 A. I really can't say what happened when. I don't know the dates,
24 because I just worked in the warehouse. Let me repeat that. I took
25 delivery of goods and issued them out, and I didn't see most of the
1 items, and I don't know what happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina when -- when
2 the conflict broke out and so on, and I keep saying this. As far as I'm
3 concerned, there were no conflicts between us and the BH Army, and not
4 from my superiors, either, those of them who are in court here today.
5 Q. I know you say that as far as you're concerned and for some of
6 the superiors who are in the courtroom today that there was no conflict,
7 you would agree that starting in a -- sometime in 1993, that there was
8 conflict in Herceg-Bosna between the HVO and the BH Army?
9 A. Indubitably, yes, you can't avoid that. I can't say that there
10 wasn't a conflict.
11 Q. And you've not shown us today a document in the binder in front
12 of you that shows any distribution of MTS to the BH Army after even
13 February of 1993, have you?
14 A. Yes, there is.
15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to object. This
16 is a very imprecise question, because we did see documents dating till
17 after February, but the Prosecutor has to say to whom and when, and does
18 it mean that if they were not contained in the binder that they don't
19 exist? Yes, we have seen documents after February 1993.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, you may be wrong. We
21 have a document dated 6th of March, 2D1041.
22 MS. WEST: Thank you, Your Honour. Let's go straight to that.
23 That's 2D01041.
24 Q. And this is a document dated March 6th, correct, 1993, and it
1 "By which it is approved for which Mr. Ismet Mehmedovic from
2 Gradac [sic], uninterrupted transport on the route from Ploce to
3 Gradac [sic], of the following equipment."
4 So you would agree with me that Ploce is -- that's a Croatian
5 port; correct?
6 A. Yes, it says "passing through," en route to, Ploce-Gradacac.
7 Q. And Gradac [sic] is in the Posavina, is it not?
8 A. In part, yes, but who is taking delivery of the MTS here we see
9 is Mr. Ismet -- I can't -- it's not quite legible.
10 Q. And, sir, my question to you is: Gradac [sic], and I think
11 I'm -- I'm sure I'm pronouncing that incorrectly, that's in the area of
12 the Posavina, is it not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And in March of 1993, there was cooperation between the HVO and
15 the BH Army in the Posavina, was there not?
16 A. Well, I do have reason not to believe. I don't have that
17 information, to be quite frank.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Praljak.
19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the
20 Prosecution is suggesting something that quite simply is not correct.
21 Now, if the witness doesn't know, he can say he doesn't know, but
22 Gradacac at this point in time is part of Tuzla, and it goes to the
23 Tuzla Corps, that delivery. And so the Prosecutor wishes to introduce a
24 maximum of confusion into this -- these proceedings.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Apparently Gradacac is close to
2 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Assuming we take that as testimony from Mr. Praljak, then even if
4 Gradac [sic] isn't part of Tuzla
5 between the HVO and the BH Army, was it not?
6 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, I don't agree with taking anything
7 as testimony from Mr. Praljak. He'll have the opportunity to give
8 testimony at the proper time. But on occasion, it is of assistance to
9 the parties to have clarification. And of course the Prosecution, being
10 desirous of getting to the truth, if a fact has been clarified, it only
11 behooves them to put it based -- squarely to the witness as to whether or
12 not that clarification will help Your Honours get to the truth. So,
13 Your Honours, I would ask that a very straightforward question be put to
14 the witness, not on the basis of any evidence given by Mr. Praljak, but
15 on the basis of a clarification that hopefully will assist the
16 Prosecution to perform their functions, which is to very squarely and
17 fairly put the evidence before Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, please continue.
19 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. Sir, let's continue on with the Posavina, because I'd like to get
21 to these documents. We'll go back to where we ended, which is 2D00630.
22 You may have to go back a little bit. 630.
23 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, we don't have an answer, with the
24 greatest of respect, to the question. So perhaps either the question can
25 be withdrawn or the question can be properly and squarely put, as I've
1 requested. But there is no answer to the question put by my learned
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you may know this or
4 you may not. Is Gradacac in Posavina or is it close to Tuzla, as far as
5 you know?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Near Tuzla. Now, geography --
7 well, judging by who is taking delivery of the goods, then it's quite
8 obvious that it's for the BH Army units.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Ms. West.
10 MS. WEST:
11 Q. Sir, Tuzla
12 BiH Army as well, was it not?
13 A. As far as I know, yes.
14 MS. WEST: Can we put P10887 on Sanction.
15 Q. This might be helpful to us, sir. This is a map of the
16 front-lines in July of 1993, but more simply, it's just a map of
18 So we see, if you look in the upper sort of right corner, you see
19 Gradac [sic]. Do you see that? There is a red line, a red Serb
20 front-line running right through it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And assuming that red Serb front-line is accurate, you would
23 agree with me that in that area, there was a Serb front, a Serb
25 A. Well, on the basis of this, but I am really not a reader of maps.
1 I don't have the knowledge, personally, how to read this map correctly.
2 Q. Would you also agree that that area, that general area up there,
3 is, if not the Posavina, very close to the Posavina and just north of
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, based on this map,
6 Gradacac is quite a fair bit far away from Tuzla, isn't it?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Some 50 to 70 kilometres
9 removed, on a straight line?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know for sure what
11 the distance is.
12 MS. WEST:
13 Q. Mr. Witness, while we have the map in front of us, you see the
14 municipality above Gradac [sic], which, I'll spell it, is O-r-a-s-j-e.
15 Do you see that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you agree with me that that is the area of the Posavina?
18 A. Orasje is in Posavina, yes.
19 Q. If we can go to 2D00630.
20 A. I have it.
21 Q. You looked at this document during direct testimony, and it's
22 October 10th, 1992
23 needs of Central Rear Base Grude and at the disposal -- or for the HVO
24 106 Brigade Orasje BiH armed forces. And we had some discussion earlier
25 about whether the BH and HVO had actual forces there, and you remember
1 testifying that you knew at least that there were Bosniaks in the HVO.
2 Do you remember that?
3 I think you have -- I think you'll have to speak louder.
4 A. Yes, correct.
5 Q. And in addition, you would agree with me that these -- and these
6 material resources were going to the area of the Posavina, an area of
8 A. It would appear to follow from this, but I didn't give it much
10 Q. Do you still have the map in front of you? Is the map still on
11 your screen?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Can -- is it now?
14 A. Yes, it's there now.
15 Q. And you see, to the west of the town of -- or the municipality of
16 Doboj, west of Gradac [sic], do you see that town?
17 A. What's the name of the town? Yes, I can see Doboj, yes.
18 Q. Now go to 2D00898. This is another document that you looked
19 on -- looked at during direct, and it's an authorisation for transport of
20 materials. And while we're speaking about transport, this is not -- a
21 number of the items -- a number of the documents that you have seen
22 regard two separate things, and I just want to know, to clarify this, one
23 is for the -- the agreement that items can be transported through a
24 particular territory; correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And those transport authorisations for ABiH and materials mean
2 that it's the Bosnian-Herzegovina Army's materials, it's just that the
3 HVO is saying, Okay, you can go through this area?
4 A. In certain situations. It went to the Central Logistics Base,
5 directly to me. Then I would be given instructions, and I would issue
6 the goods according to those -- those instructions in this particular
8 Q. So in this particular case, these items are going ultimately to
9 Doboj; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And that's also an area that's close to the Posavina; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you go to the next document, which is just nine --
14 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Kovacic.
16 MS. TOMANOVIC: I do not have a mike -- [Interpretation] I think
17 I have a right to say something, because I'm from Doboj myself. Doboj is
18 not in Posavina. That's for sure, no. [In English] Not in Posavina.
19 MS. WEST: If I may --
20 MR. KOVACIC: I'm sorry, I had also a comment, a kind of
22 Your Honour, this is the second time the Prosecutor is using the
23 description "it is close to." Well, first, it's very subjective. What
24 is close to maybe your friend is not close to me. I can walk, she cannot
25 walk, et cetera, et cetera. Particularly -- particularly in the
1 conditions of war, something was very close, but, for example, in some
2 cases there is a huge mountain in between, this is another country, this
3 is like it is in Australia
4 part of the region, meaning communication of people, goods, et cetera, or
5 it is entirely another word. It cannot be "close." There is no close
6 position in the war.
7 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Sir, can you go --
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, I'm sure you have
10 understood what the problem is. You are saying "close to." What does
11 this mean, exactly?
12 MS. WEST: Mr. President, I do understand what the problem is,
13 but I would submit that the theme of my cross-examination is of no
14 surprise to anyone. What we are doing is going through each of these
15 documents to show that when the HVO was giving supplies or authorising
16 transport of these materials to the BH Army, they were not doing it as a
17 favour to the BH Army, they were doing it because it was in their own
18 interests. These are all areas of cooperation. Had any of these counsel
19 asked to -- asked questions on cross-examination, they could have
20 explored this very issue. But with all due respect to my learned friend
21 who's from Doboj, that is not an appropriate comment to make as an
22 objection. I did say "close to Posavina." I was careful about that, but
23 to be clear, it seems unusual to me to hear these types of -- these types
24 of objections during my cross-examination when none of them took an
25 opportunity to do the cross themselves.
1 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, can I make it clear that it has not been
2 asserted, on behalf of Mr. Stojic, that the provision of weapons was a
3 favour to the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. No doubt there are mutual
4 interests. Even in friendships -- the question of friendships was raised
5 by Your Honours. Even in friendships, they have to be reciprocal, if
6 they are to be lasting. So, Your Honours, as far as that's concerned,
7 the response of my learned friend really doesn't have legs, in my
8 respectful submission.
9 Your Honour, it's --
10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Khan, it seems to me you're pleading, you're
11 presenting arguments to the merits, and I wonder whether this is really
12 the moment to do this.
13 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, it is, in my respectful submission,
14 because if one reads what -- Your Honour, perhaps Your Honour could be
15 patient before just moving on. I would invite Your Honour to read
16 exactly what my learned friend Ms. West very eloquently put about the
17 theme of her cross-examination, and she went into that. That is not a
18 response to an objection.
19 The objection put forward by me is not the lack of notice by my
20 learned friend. I'm not surprised in the least regarding the area she's
21 seeking to go into, but it's a question of precision. That was the form
22 of objection that my learned friends raised, a question of precision, not
23 notice regarding theme. And to that extent, Your Honours, it is my
24 respectful submission that my objection and those of my colleagues for
25 the other teams should be sustained.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall now have a 20-minute
2 break, since it is now time to have a break. We shall resume in
3 20 minutes' time.
4 --- Recess taken at 5.37 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, you have 46 minutes
8 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Mr. Majic, I'm going to ask you to go to the bigger binder now.
10 And if you can please go to 2D01250, and it's in the back. It's 2D01250.
11 It's a yellow tab.
12 This is a February 14th, 1993, letter from Commander Pasalic
13 again of the Muslim Army, and in it he is asking the HVO to take
14 possession and transport a number of items for the 4th Corps. And it
15 gives the list of the resources, and it indicates materials and equipment
16 for the needs of the ABiH 4th Corps forces, and because of the possible
17 offensive by the Chetniks, it is necessary that "you immediately issue a
18 permit for uninterrupted passage of the transport via ..." and then it
19 goes through these towns, and it goes through Visoko, which you mentioned
20 earlier was the ABiH Logistics Centre; right?
21 A. Yes, that is right.
22 Q. But if you go to the second page of the English, but I -- it's
23 your first page in the B/C/S, it says:
24 "We have contacted you with this request earlier on
25 January 15th, 1993
1 Mr. Majic, February of 1993, you -- this was when you were
2 working at the warehouse; correct?
3 A. Yes, that is correct.
4 Q. And you were also there the month earlier, January 15th, 1993;
6 A. January? Yes, January, the first month, "sijecanj," January.
7 Q. You worked at the warehouse in January as well; yes?
8 A. I don't understand. Yes, in January, yes. We call the month
9 "Sijecanj," January.
10 Q. Thank you. And do you remember a request like this coming
11 through on January 15th from Commander Pasalic?
12 A. No. I apologise, but I didn't receive requests like this. My
13 superiors received the requests, and then when they issued instructions
14 for distribution, then I would act upon those instructions.
15 Q. I'm sorry, that's correct. You testified that it was the
16 distribution you would receive; right?
17 A. Yes, yes, that's right, order for distribution.
18 Q. And on January 15th, do you ever remember receiving an order for
19 distribution for this request?
20 A. As far as I remember, I would say rather yes than no, but I can't
21 claim for sure, because how do I know order for distribution? I would be
22 more than a computer if I could remember all the details.
23 Q. Fair enough --
24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise for
25 getting to my feet, but I'd like to ask my learned friend that in the
1 introduction -- say that in the introduction, it is an issue of approval,
2 it's an approval for safe passage. It is not an order for distribution.
3 It is an approval for safe passage for the goods. So when she asks the
4 witness whether he received an order for distribution, she cannot base
5 her question on this document, because this is approval for transport,
6 not approval for distribution of the MTS.
7 MS. WEST: Thank you. I'll accept that.
8 Q. Mr. Witness, but again if we focus on page 2 of the English,
9 where it says: "We have contacted you with this request earlier on
10 January 15th, 1993, but you have not permitted the transport," my
11 question to you is, are you aware on that date of an ultimatum being
12 issued by Mr. Prlic indicating that all units of the BH Army should be
13 subordinated to the HVO and giving a dead-line of five days?
14 A. No, I don't have that knowledge.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: And may I object for the record, Your Honour.
16 According to the question, it is that Prlic issued. I think we've gone
17 around and round on this, and I think it's an imprecise -- and I know the
18 Prosecution, like a broken record, wishes and wishes to mention it and
19 hopefully it will become history, but that is not the case. This was a
20 decision taken by a collective body, and let's address it as that.
21 Whether it was an ultimatum or not, I leave it for the Court. So I would
22 also object to that characterisation of that particular decision. Thank
24 MS. WEST: Mr. President, I'll move on. He indicated he doesn't
25 have any knowledge, anyways.
1 Q. Sir, if you can go to P01499 in the binder in front of you, 1499.
2 So this is a document that's dated February 16th, 1993. This is
3 just two days later than the other document I just showed you, and it's a
4 request again from -- no, excuse me, it looks like it's from the chief of
5 the Defence Department, Mr. Mijo Anjic [phoen], but it's a list of
6 technical and motor equipment for the 108th HVO Brcko Brigade. But what
7 I'd like to focus on, on the B/C/S on the side, you see a handwritten
8 note, and that note says:
9 "Dear Mr. Jarnjak, please inform Ploce, Mr. Redzo, to let these
10 means pass to HVO Grude and up."
11 I'll just stop for a moment. Mr. Majic, it's on the side of the
12 B/C/S. You see it's written up the side, it's handwritten. So it's --
13 yeah, there you go. So it's the handwritten language up the side, and
14 I'm going to read that. It says:
15 "Please inform Ploce to let these means pass to HVO Grude.
16 Please intensify the control of loading of humanitarian aid in Split
17 Muslims are smuggling weapons using these -- those convoys. Sincerely
18 yours," and then it says, "Slobodan," and the English says "family name
19 illegible," but if you look at the B/C/S, I would submit that says
20 "Slobodan Praljak." Do you see that handwriting?
21 A. Yes, I do see that, but as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't mean
22 anything. It's not indicative of anything.
23 Q. Well, if I were to suggest to you that it might be indicative of
24 Mr. -- or the signatory was concerned about Muslims having weapons,
25 Muslims are smuggling weapons using these convoys, would you agree with
1 that, that there's some concern there?
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Calls for speculation. Objection. The text
3 stands for what it says right there. As to what interpretation or spin
4 should be given to the text, that would be left to the Judges, not for
5 this witness to speculate. That's not proper evidence.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, don't forget that the
7 witness has -- since he was working in the Logistics Centre and was
8 taking delivery of material and equipment, he only has a piecemeal
9 understanding of all of this. Anything more complicated goes beyond the
10 scope of his knowledge.
11 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President. I'll move on.
12 Q. Mr. Majic, you have testified that there were places and times
13 where the HVO and the Croats cooperated together. Were there also places
14 and times when the HVO and the Serbs cooperated together?
15 A. No, I don't have that knowledge myself.
16 Q. All right. But would you agree with me that the Grude Logistics
17 Base was also the source of supplies to -- sometimes to the Serbs?
18 A. I don't have that knowledge. In my sector, where I was in charge
19 of the MTS, that's not true.
20 Q. Okay. Let's look at P08118. It's P08118. This is the annual
21 report for the Supplies Procurement/Production Sector for 1993, and this
22 the group with whom you worked; right? This is where you worked?
23 A. Yes, but I was not involved in producing this, this report.
24 Q. I understand that. And if you go to the second page of the
25 English, there's a sort of a cover page, and it's signed by Ante Jelavic.
1 He was your supervisor; right?
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. Now, I understand that you did not take part in writing this, but
4 I'd like to go over a couple of the comments in here to see if you can
5 shed any light on them. If you can go to page 20 of the English, but the
6 B/C/S is date-stamped "0346-9369."
7 MS. WEST: And I think, Mr. Usher, he will probably need some
8 help with this. It ends in "369."
9 Q. Maybe I'll just read this out in English, but the B/C/S ends
10 in -- it's date-stamped 0346-9369, it ends in 369, and it's the last
11 sentence on the page. But in English this is talking about fuel, and
12 it's under the heading of "Realisation of set tasks." And in the
13 English, it says:
14 "The transport of fuel for 'X' by fuel truck convoys was directly
15 organised by the transport administration and effected by the transport
17 Mr. Majic, do you have any idea what that sentence means and
18 who -- what is the identity of X?
19 A. No, no idea. I don't know.
20 Q. I'm just going to show you -- it's page 25 of the English, and
21 the B/C/S ends in "416." Can you hear?
22 A. It's back.
23 Q. And this is under the heading of "Procurement of TTS," and in
24 English it's the bottom of the page -- or for the B/C/S, it's the second
25 paragraph, and it says:
1 "Fuel for side X was obtained by the Technical and Procurement
2 Administrations. This obstructed in planning of consumption and caused
3 additional problems in terms of procurement, transport, and meeting
5 Mr. Majic, does that second reading of this report give you an
6 understanding of what "X" means?
7 A. I don't know, I really don't. I was a deputy, but I was attached
8 to the Construction Administration. Frankly, I have no idea.
9 Q. Mr. Majic, have you ever heard of the XY side?
10 A. Frankly, no.
11 Q. I'm going to read some testimony to you and see if we can explore
12 this further.
13 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm going to object, Your Honour, to this line of
14 questioning. The gentleman has already indicated that he doesn't know
15 what X is, or XY, or XYZ, or whatever the case may be, so reading
16 testimony to somehow get the witness to vouch for something is improper.
17 At this point, this is beyond the scope of the gentleman's knowledge, and
18 I think we need to appreciate that.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, Mr. Karnavas has just
20 said something important. It is beyond the scope of the gentleman's
21 knowledge. You are trying to introduce, through him, data that we have
22 available, because this has been addressed already. But obviously the
23 witness is not aware of this, so it's a waste of time. What's the point
24 of it? He does not know that there might have been some kind of
25 "cooperation," quote/unquote, with the Serbs, as might be indicated by
1 the document. He said that three times in a row, he said, "I don't
3 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President. However, what this witness
4 should be able to testify in regard to is whether any supplies went out
5 of Grude for XY, and those are the documents I'm about to get into.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: If the gentleman doesn't know what XY is,
7 Your Honour, I don't see how it helps. It really -- at this point in
8 time, Your Honour, you do need to issue an instruction for our learned
9 friend to move on.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we're going to go
11 straight -- cut to the chase, because this could go forever.
12 From where you were, from Grude, from the Logistics Base, as far
13 as you know, was there to be addressed to the Serbs weapons, ammunition,
14 fuel, that was sent, as seems to be indicated by this document?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, certainly not. I have no
16 knowledge of that at all. That is where we should begin. I really don't
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So, Ms. West, he's been saying
19 this four times, saying that he doesn't know anything about it.
20 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. Sir, I'd like to move on to P04272. We're going to move off of
22 X, but I'd like to continue to talk about any knowledge you might have
23 about HVO and Serb cooperation. This is an ECMM report, and I would just
24 note that the document, I think, cannot be shown publicly on the screen.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, again I'm going to have a standing
1 objection. We need to move on on this. Trying to force the gentleman
2 into saying something that he doesn't know or to get him to speculate is
3 not helpful to anybody.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Prosecutor, you are
5 stubborn. The witness was adamant, he said he didn't know, and now you
6 come up with a document from an international organisation, so obviously
7 he doesn't know a thing, not the first thing about it, in order to return
8 to the topic. What a waste of time.
9 MS. WEST: Mr. President, most respectfully, I disagree. The
10 issue with this witness is whether Grude was supplying Muslims in areas
11 of cooperation, to which he has provided this Court with an answer that
12 they have. What I would like to show is that Grude was also supplying
13 weapons and arms and supplies to the Serbs. Since he was based at Grude,
14 and he may not know what "XY" means, but since he's based at Grude and
15 he's getting a distribution order from Ante Jelavic, he should be able to
16 comment on what sort of items are going out of Grude.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I most respectfully submit that if
18 that is their theory, that perhaps they could put it or they should have
19 put it through their witnesses, but to now try to get the gentleman to
20 somehow agree that they were supplying the Serbs as they were supplying
21 the Muslims, this is not the time or place or individual. You know, I
22 would love to debate this point, and I will continue to debate this
23 point, but we need to move on.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, if you want to waste
25 your time, go ahead, but you know, Madam Prosecutor, I read the
1 Milutinovic judgement. In the Milutinovic case, the Prosecution had
2 asked for 260 hours. It used only 160 hours. So I suppose that your
3 colleagues from the Milutinovic case made best use of their time. Now
4 you are wasting it.
5 Go ahead, if you so wish.
6 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President. I'll move on.
7 Q. Mr. Majic, you indicated that up until at least May of 1993, you
8 were in charge of the warehouse which is located in the forest; is that
10 A. Yes, that's right, up until mid-May 1993.
11 Q. And in mid-May of 1993, where did your office -- where did you
12 move to?
13 A. I was deputy assistant head, and the head was Mr. Jelavic.
14 Q. And so my question is: Physically, where was your office
16 A. My office was at Zenicka Street. I had a room that I was using
17 there, an office. But as I said before, when I moved and started working
18 as Jelavic's deputy, I was mostly involved in construction, rebuilding,
19 and everything else that we needed. Later, we started rebuilding roads.
20 So after this date, that was what my involvement was about and continued
21 to be about, just that, until the day I retired.
22 Q. And in your office on that street, is that -- is that the same
23 building where Mr. Jelavic had his office as well?
24 A. Yes, the same building.
25 Q. And was he on your same floor?
1 A. Yes, same floor.
2 Q. And was Mr. Boban's office on the same floor?
3 A. No. Mr. Boban's office was in the municipal building.
4 Q. And that's a different building?
5 A. Yes, yes, a different building altogether.
6 Q. When you moved to that location in May of 1993, how long were you
7 in that location? Did I understand that it was until you retired?
8 A. Yes, until I retired.
9 MS. WEST: Mr. President, I have no further questions.
10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I?
11 Questioned by the Court:
12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Majic, it might be helpful if you would tell
13 us, so that we also have it in the record, in which town is
14 Zenicka Street
15 A. Zenicka is what we call the building, not the street, the former
16 premises of the RNK Zenicka, but this was in Grude.
17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you said something
19 that I found interesting, because so far I was wondering where
20 Mr. Boban's office was, and you are telling us about it. You've just
21 said that Mr. Boban's office was in the Town Hall of Grude
23 A. Yes, that's right.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you know -- well, did
25 you know the City Hall, did you go to that building?
1 A. Yes. I am from Grude. I was in the Municipal Council, so yes.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So there is a room, a council
3 room, in the Municipal Council building. I suppose that there was an
4 office for the president of the council, wasn't there?
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And was Mr. Boban in that
7 office that would be, by tradition, reserved for the president of the
8 Grude Municipal Council?
9 A. The municipal president.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So he was -- occupied the
11 office of the president of the municipality. See, you came to speak
12 about logistics, but I am interested in offices, in premises. Sometimes
13 it boils down to one and the same thing.
14 Did he have a lot of offices next to his, Mr. Boban's, or was it
15 very small? Like the people working for him, did they have offices or
16 was it just a very small structure?
17 A. No, not as far as I know, no.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When we went on location, we
19 should have gone to visit the Municipal Council building. We would have
20 seen the premises. We didn't think of it then, but if we go there again,
21 we'll go there.
22 Ms. Nozica, do you have any redirect?
23 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, two
24 additional clarifications in relation to two documents, very briefly.
25 Re-examination by Ms. Nozica:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Majic, you have my binder, you have the OTP
2 binder. Can you please go back to the following document. It's a
3 document in my binder, 2D311.
4 You've got it. Thank you. We have a date here, the 30th of
5 March, 1993, and what we see there is the fact that MTS was issued for
6 the purposes of the armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina, through the
7 Grude Logistics Base. The OTP examined you about this document, but I
8 wish to state this for the record and for the transcript: (redacted)
15 A. Indeed, I do have reason to doubt. This one is addressed to me
16 directly, and then I forwarded it, having received an order to do so.
17 Q. I don't think you understand me. Do you have any doubt that the
18 MTS was delivered as described by the witness?
19 A. No, no, no, there is no doubt. This is perfectly fair.
20 Q. Can we go to another document, please, and I must emphasise that
21 this has been exhibited already. This is 3D0008. You don't have it
22 there, but it's about to appear on the screen in front of you, 3D0008.
23 Just a minute, please.
24 This is an exhibit already, but let us, please, try to look at a
25 number of things here. He received the weapons, and what are the
1 whereabouts of the person who received the weapons on behalf of the
2 BH Army. The date of this document is the 6th of March, 1993. The
3 document specifies certain quantities. Can you please have a closer look
4 and try and explain to the Chamber. We're looking at some equipment for
5 the armed forces. This goes through the Grude Logistics Base. The
6 quantity is 1.000 grenades, one 52 millimetres. This is on the 6th of
7 March, 1993
8 into account, the rounds. In your experience, would this not be an
9 enormous amount of weapons and ammunition?
10 A. Yes, this is simply enormous.
11 Q. All right. Can we please move on to page 3 of this document in
12 the B/C/S. In the English, it's 3D00002 --
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, earlier on, I was
14 listening to Ms. West when she was asking you questions, because all the
15 weapons were only used for the Posavina area or Sarajevo, she thought.
16 In this document we have in front of us, Witness, we see people -- three
17 people who are in charge; Seta from Sarajevo, Beslagic from Visoko, and
18 Music from Gradacac. This Beslagic from Visoko, do you remember him?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did the BiH Army have units in
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I assume so. They had a
23 central logistics base in Visoko as well.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And to your knowledge - of
25 course we can check that later - did the HVO have a front against the
1 ABiH in or around Visoko?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. You don't know. Very
5 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Sir, could you please look at 3D000025. You will see this is
7 page 3 in e-court, ERN 0183-1697. It's on our screens.
8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] could we please pull the document
9 down slightly -- or pull it up, rather, the other way around. Thank you.
10 There you go.
11 Q. There is a note there:
12 "Arrived on the 9th of March in Pazaric and delivered to Dzevad
13 Tirko [phoen]."
14 That's what it says.
15 In connection with the questions asked by my learned friend about
16 whether and where the BH Army was cooperating, and she placed this
17 cooperation in Posavina and in Tuzla
18 that you were shown by my learned friend, P10887, just to make sure about
19 Pazaric and Visoko and their respective locations, that we can have a
20 look. We see that this arrived in Pazaric on the 3rd of March, 1993
21 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I do apologise. It may be an error
22 on my part. Could my learned friend please help me with the number of
23 that map that she was showing the witness? I do have the correct number,
24 P10887. It's not correct, then.
25 Q. All right. Can we please have a look and can we find Sarajevo
1 this map, please?
2 Tell me as soon as you've got it. There it is. Look at the map,
3 please, and try to find Visoko. It's above Kiseljak, isn't it? You see
4 that, Witness, don't you?
5 A. All right, I see it now. It took some time.
6 Q. Do you see "Visoko," sir, "Breza-Visoko"? Look at number 5,
8 A. I see that.
9 Q. You do, fine. Okay. Try and have a look, where is the Visoko
10 Logistics Base? Is it in the immediate vicinity of Sarajevo?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Mr. Majic, is it correct not indisputable that this is nowhere
13 near Posavina or, indeed, Tuzla
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. Mr. Majic, can you confirm, if we look again at the whole map,
17 that Visoko is in Central Bosnia, in actual fact?
18 A. [No verbal response]
19 Q. Can you speak up, please? I didn't hear you?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no
22 further questions.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Nozica.
24 Yes, Ms. West.
25 MS. WEST: I believe at line 7 through 12 on page 80, the witness
1 that counsel spoke of testified in private session, so I'm wondering if
2 there might be an order of redaction for that part of the transcript.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall ask the legal officer
4 to check this with the Registrar.
5 Witness, on behalf of my colleagues, I would like to thank you
6 for having to come at the request of Mr. Stojic's Defence counsel to help
7 get to the truth. I wish you a safe journey home, and I shall ask the
8 usher to escort you out of the courtroom.
9 Mr. Karnavas, just one moment. Let him leave the courtroom.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, will your witness
12 be coming tomorrow or the day after tomorrow?
13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, both of our scheduled
14 witnesses, the ones scheduled for Wednesday and Thursday, are yet to
15 arrive. My plan was to have them appear on Wednesday and follow your
16 instructions, one after the other over the course of the same day, if
17 possible. I will be meeting the witnesses tomorrow morning, and we'll be
18 informing the Court of the overall time that I will take to examine these
19 two witnesses.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand correctly,
21 Ms. Nozica, we will not be able to sit tomorrow afternoon. Ms. Nozica,
22 so there will be no hearing tomorrow afternoon?
23 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour. You're
24 quite right. I do apologise. My learned friend was making a suggestion,
25 and that was the reason I didn't hear you.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, before you take
2 the floor, this is what the Trial Chamber would like to state. I don't
3 know what you're about to say.
4 We handed down a decision at the beginning of this hearing. This
5 ruling is what it is. You can challenge it through the ordinary means,
6 i.e., to certify the decision and to appeal it, but the Trial Chamber
7 holds that once a decision has been handed down, the lawyers are not to
8 challenge it by taking the floor again and say, You have ruled on this
9 and that and I don't agree. If you disagree, then you can appeal the
11 I don't know if that's what you were about to say --
12 MR. KARNAVAS: That was not --
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- but I anticipated.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: That was not what I was about to say, Your Honour.
15 I do realise that once a decision is made, it is made. I believe there
16 were comments in the past by one of the Judges that we should not try to
17 re-litigate a decision simply because we don't like it, in open court.
18 I did, however, wish to point out one factor, and that is:
19 Because we believe, at least from the tenor of the message, and the tone
20 in which it was delivered, that somehow members of the Trial Chamber are
21 accusing the Prlic Defence team of being underhanded and nefarious in
22 somehow trying to use slight-of-hand techniques in their applications,
23 such as the one that we have, where we went over the word limit.
24 I can assure Your Honours, first and foremost, that since 2001,
25 when I began practicing here, this is the technique that has been used.
1 I've used it in the previous case. Many other Chambers use it. So this
2 is not something that I have come up with. And what I'm speaking of, in
3 particular, is the fact that one can file both a leave and the motion in
4 one particular pleading. It is done very often. It is done routinely,
5 in fact. So there was nothing out of the ordinary. And it seemed, at
6 least from the tenor, that I was somewhat over-recidivist in doing things
7 the wrong way, and of course I just wanted to clarify the record that we
8 chose this method because it was of an urgency and we wanted to get it
9 in. So that was the reason, and I do wish the Trial Chamber to take note
10 of that.
11 We will be filing for a leave to file this again in the way it
12 is, because we do believe that since this is an issue of first
13 impression, which is something that I did not mention, this particular
14 issue, we thought it was necessary to do an extensive briefing to assist
16 But be that as it may, I just wanted to clarify the record,
17 Your Honour, that there was no ill intent on the part of the Defence of
18 Dr. Prlic to sneak one on the Court, especially when we, on the very
19 first line or two lines, we state that we are way over the limit. So we
20 hope that you will accept this explanation, because we have been hurt by
21 those comments that somehow we are not being professional, because that
22 was the understanding that we took in the manner in which you delivered
23 your oral decision.
24 And I apologise for having taken -- taking up the time. Thank
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It's on the
2 transcript. We shall, therefore, wait for your submissions.
3 To sum up, we shall meet again on Wednesday. We shall be sitting
4 on Wednesday afternoon. Ms. Nozica will let us know and tell us how much
5 time she will need. As far as we are concerned, we had allocated one
6 hour for each witness.
7 Ms. West, I saw you on your feet.
8 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Just briefly, just to clarify for the record, the Prosecution
10 will not be responding, then, to the provisional release motion that's
11 been filed, and we will wait to see how this plays out.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
13 I wish -- first of all, I'd like to move into private session for
14 a few minutes.
15 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In open session, I would like
21 to state that we shall meet again on Wednesday at a quarter past 2.00.
22 Thank you.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.46 p.m.
24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day of
25 March, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.