1 Tuesday, 24 March 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The Accused Prlic and Coric not present]
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 --- Upon commencing at 2.34 p.m.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you call the
8 case, please.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
10 everyone in and around the courtroom.
11 This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor verse Prlic et al.
12 Thank you, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you Mr. Registrar.
14 Today is Tuesday, the 24th of March, 2009. I would like to
15 welcome the accused, the Defence counsel, the witness, as well as the
16 OTP, as well as all the people assisting us in this courtroom much.
17 Registrar, have you two IC numbers, please.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours. It is actually three.
19 The 2D Defence has submitted its objections to documents tendered
20 by the Prosecution, and the Petkovic Defence team, through witness
21 Bandic, Ivan. The Prosecution has also submitted its combined objections
22 to Defence list of documents through witness Bandic, Ivan. This list
23 shall be given Exhibit numbers IC961, 962 and 963 respectively. Thank
24 you, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,
2 Ms. Nozica, I believe have you 18 minutes left.
3 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good afternoon,
4 Your Honours. Good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom, and good
5 afternoon, Mr. Makar.
6 WITNESS: ANDJELKO MAKAR [Resumed]
7 [The witness answered through interpreter]
8 Examination by Ms. Nozica [Continued]
9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Makar, at the beginning of your
10 examination-in-chief, we spoke about your contacts between Mr. Saric, the
11 commander of the 2nd Corps of the BH Army and Dr. Ivo Prodan, head of
12 department, who was employed in the Ministry of Defence of the Republic
13 of Croatia
14 of your knowledge, and looking at the Medical Corps and field of Health,
15 was there any cooperation between the Republic of Croatia
16 2nd Corps of the BH Army?
17 A. Your Honours, yes, I can confirm that. Mr. Prodan and the
18 Administration for Health of Croatia helped us a great deal in supplying
19 the 2nd Corps with sanitary material, medicines, and in setting up
20 wartime hospitals, and in equipping those hospitals.
21 Q. I would like us now to look at a few documents and to have your
22 comments. The first is 2D1132. And I hope you have the binder.
23 A. No, I don't seem to have the binder.
24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Well, could I ask the usher to help
25 us out, please.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
3 Q. We'll take them in order, so find 2D1132 first, please.
4 A. Yes, I found it.
5 Q. Can you explain what this document represents? What is it?
6 A. Your Honours, this is a document. It's a command, ordering
7 Dr. Ivan Hudolin to take up the position of the coordinator for civilian
8 and military health in the territory of the Operative Group East
9 Posavina, and he is appointed as the chief surgeon at the war hospital at
10 Brcko. I knew Mr. Hudolin, I knew him then and I know him now, and I
11 know that he did take up that post. I visited the war hospital
12 frequently so I can confirm that that's what this document is about.
13 Q. Please look at the next document, 2D1133.
14 A. Yes, Your Honours, once again this is a document that refers to
15 Dr. Hudolin, regulating some of his rights in the service.
16 Q. Now look at 2D1131, please.
17 A. Your Honours, this is another document connected to Dr. Hudolin's
18 involvement, and by this order priority is given in traffic for him to be
19 able to go about his duties.
20 Q. The next document is 2D1136. Would you take a look at that now,
22 A. Your Honours, this is a document of the District Staff of the
23 Territorial Defence, dated September 1992, signed by the corps commander,
24 Zeljko Knez, and it is ordered hereby that the Administration for Health
25 be established in the 2nd Corps, with its seat in Tuzla, and the
1 commander is Dr. Mejrudin Hosonovic, and the deputy commander and chief
2 inspector of the war hospitals is Dr. Ivan Hudolin. He was appointed to
3 that post. So this confirms that pursuant to an order from Mr. Prodan
4 and the minister of defence, Dr. Hudolin came to the corps, was engaged
5 by the corps to carry out these duties.
6 Q. The next document is 2D1137, once against signed by Zeljko Knez.
7 A. Yes. This document follows on from the other one, judging by the
8 date, and the Command Staff of the war hospitals is determined, and
9 locations for the formation of war hospitals are mentioned, and for the
10 commander of the war hospitals we see, among other things, in Maoca, a
11 place called Maoca, that Dr. Hudolin -- Ivan Hudolin is being appointed
12 to that post. And the corps commander has signed it, Zeljko Knez.
13 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber where Maoca is, what country
14 that's in, what state?
15 A. Maoca is in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It is Bosanska Posavina, near
17 Q. Just two more documents. 2D1134 is the next one. This is a
18 document dated the 2nd of November, 1992. 2D1134 is the number.
19 A. This is a document by the head of the Sanitary Inspection Service
20 from the Republic of Croatia
21 instructions. I assume this is to Dr. Ivan Hudolin, because it says to
22 Dr. Ivan Hudolin, and then it says "Dear Ivo." So some guide-lines for
23 Dr. Hudolin.
24 Q. The KBC of Tuzla is mentioned there, Tuzla KBC, and this
25 incorporates the situation in the Tuzla
1 A. Yes, the clinical hospital centre of Tuzla is a large medical
2 institution, it was during the war and still is, and the staff from the
3 hospital was used for the war hospitals as well, and Dr. Hudolin played
4 his part there.
5 Q. All right. Now let's look at the next document, 2D1135. This is
6 the Command of the 108th Brigade, Brcko, the 10th of December, 1992
7 A. Yes. The commander who signed this document is Ramiz Pljakic of
8 the 108th Brigade of the HVO at Posavina; and I can't remember exactly,
9 but I see from the contents of this document that Dr. Hudolin was
10 supposed to be moved to the war hospital in Tolisa. However, the
11 commander of the 108th Brigade is requesting that Dr. Hudolin stay where
12 he is because his services are needed. And I know that there was very
13 heavy fighting at that time in 1992 with a lot of wounded, and I know
14 that Dr. Hudolin, as a surgeon, saved many lives, and many others the
15 life of Dr. Miludin Hosonovic mentioned a moment ago, who was seriously
16 wounded. Yes, I do apologise.
17 Q. You said Miludin Hosonovic, did you?
18 A. Yes. For those reason the request by the brigade commander to
19 have Dr. Hudolin remain where he was and carry out his duties there is
20 what this document is all about.
21 Q. Now look at 2D1188 [as interpreted], the last document in this
22 series relating to this area. It is signed by Mr. Bagaric on the 3rd of
23 November, 1993.
24 A. Yes. I can see from the document that it is about the Bosanska
25 Bjela war hospital, and I should like to point out that we're dealing
1 with November 1993 here, where the assistant to the minister of defence
2 of the Healthcare Administration from Herceg-Bosna from Mostar is
3 ordering that a war hospital at Bosanska Bjela be established and that
4 Dr. Ivan Hudolin should be the head of that hospital, the commander of
5 it, and that the war hospital should see to all the wounded and sick from
6 the area of the Municipal Assembly of Brcko and the area of
7 responsibility of the 108th Brigade.
8 Q. Tell me, please, this hospital, did it also treat all the members
9 of the 2nd Corps?
10 A. Yes. I know that for certain because I was there. At the time
11 in the zone of defence of the 108th HVO Brigade, we would have many
12 people from other parts of the brigades coming in of the BH Army, the
13 2nd Corps, to reinforce the troops in battle, so that upon their arrival
14 in the area of responsibility of the 108th Brigade, as it says in this
15 document, they were taken care of medically and relied on this particular
16 war hospital.
17 Q. Mr. Makar, do you know whether the members of the 2nd Army were
18 treated in -- 2nd Corps were treated in Croatia, if they are more serious
19 cases, and particularly at the time when the war hospitals hadn't gotten
20 going properly yet?
21 A. Yes, I am aware of that, that that did happen, and I know of
22 specific cases they were treated in Split, wounded were treated in Split
23 and I think in other countries as well, but I know for sure that they
24 were treated in Croatia
25 Q. Mr. Makar, I'd just briefly like to go through some documents
1 which, in fact, speak of these relationships -- the good relationships
2 between the Command of the 2nd Corps of the BH Army and the HVO of the
3 brigades to which -- which belonged to the 2nd Corps. So I'm going to
4 show you four documents one by one now, and the first of these is 2D1123,
5 and I'll have -- I'll invite your comments at the end of them. 2D1127 is
6 the next one, 2D1128, and the fourth 2D1129.
7 Mr. Makar, based on these documents, which are, in fact, messages
8 of congratulation, can you tell us what the relations were between the
9 Command of the 2nd Corps, of which you were a part, and the HVO brigades?
10 And here we see the date is 1993, but I'm asking you about the entire
12 A. Your Honours, to the best of my knowledge there were many more
13 documents of a similar nature. These are various messages of
14 congratulation. I see here that someone has been promoted to a higher
15 rank, so Juric, Zvonko, the commander of the 115th Brigade; Pejo Banovic,
16 the president of the Tuzla HVO; these were all men who are in constant
17 contact of the corps, and the corps commander was often invited to
18 various celebrations, religious feast days and so on.
19 Q. I wish to make a correction. On page 5, in line 18, instead of
20 "2D1188," it should say "2D1138."
21 And, finally - my time is running out - could you describe to
22 Their Honours what your contacts with Bruno Stojic were like? You said
23 there were several such contacts. Could you describe them for us, and
24 could you explain how significant they were for the 2nd Corps of the
25 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
1 A. Your Honours, I met Mr. Bruno Stojic for the first time when I
2 first visited Mostar, and we saw yesterday that it was on the 23rd of
3 February, 1992
4 of my visits, and I can say that as regards the significance of the
5 logistical assistance we received from the HVO and Mr. Stojic, in my
6 estimation his attitude toward the 2nd Corps and our mutual struggle was
7 exceptionally correct.
8 Q. Mr. Makar, in these conversations when you were putting forward
9 the viewpoints of the 2nd Corps, did Mr. Stojic support the joint
10 struggle and the joint command in the 2nd Corps, and did Mr. Stojic or
11 anyone else that you talked to in Mostar feel that this was not the right
12 way to go about things?
13 A. Your Honours, we had those meetings, both formal meetings and
14 informal chats afterwards, and always the view was expressed that it was
15 significant for Bosnia-Herzegovina, for the 2nd Corps to successfully
16 defend the territory of the population there. Mr. Stojic knew well that
17 in the 2nd Corps, brigades of the HVO and brigades of the Army of the
18 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
19 command. He knew also that in the brigades of the HVO and the brigades
20 of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
21 mixed. On one occasion, he even pointed out that it would be disastrous
22 if the Croats were to retreat from those areas or flee or leave, because
23 the Muslims would not be able to defend themselves alone. That's the
24 extent to which the struggle there was a common one.
25 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Makar.
1 Your Honours, I have finished my examination-in-chief.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have two short
3 questions for you, which are follow-up questions, which I believe are
5 According to all the documents we have seen, which have been
6 shown to you by Ms. Nozica, we have documents that establish, and this is
7 undisputed, that in certain logistics centres, either in Zagreb or Grude,
8 that the ABiH were procured in arms weapons for at least the entire
9 beginning of 1993, as far as the last document is concerned the one we
10 have in our binder is dated the 2nd of May, 1993; where it is stated that
11 MTS is supplied. As far as you know, after the months of May, let's say
12 June, July, August, September, November and December, was the arms supply
13 continued or not, either supplies coming in from the Republic of Croatia
14 or from the HVO?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can confirm that
16 this method of supply continued until the end of the war. It was more
17 difficult in those areas where there were conflicts and problems, but
18 throughout the war this was our method of supply. Without it, we would
19 certainly not have been able to defend ourselves and preserve the
20 territory and the people we were defending.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
22 Second question: I would like you to look at the last document,
23 please. It will be easier for everyone. 2D1129. It's the last document
24 in your binder.
25 There we have it.
1 So I must say that when I saw this document in B/C/S, it is a
2 document which I find poses a number of problems. Do you realise, like I
3 do, that this document is headed "Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honours, I can
5 absolutely confirm this, because I know Mr. Pejo Banovic very well. We
6 often run into each other in Tuzla
7 by the Croatian Community of Soli. Mr. Pejo Banovic frequently visited
8 the corps commander both ex officio and because he wished to assist
9 wherever he could.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have seen other
11 documents. Just turn to document 1138, which is the document just before
12 this one, document 1138.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1128? I can't see 38. Oh, excuse
14 me, yes, yes, 38 is in front of this one.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 1138, look at the heading.
16 Look at the heading of this document. It doesn't say "Republic of Bosnia
17 and Herzegovina
18 below that it says "Croatian Republic Herceg-Bosna." As far as you are
19 concerned, do you have an explanation to give us for the different
20 headings we see in both these documents? One is dated the 3rd of
21 November, 1993, and the last document is dated the 16th of December,
22 1993. Let's say that there is a month in between these two documents.
23 Why is there this difference, this distinction? Maybe you have no
24 explanation to give us, but if you do, I would find this extremely
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, looking at this, I do
2 observe the difference, but I'm unable to explain the reason.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Look at the coat of
4 arms that is on the document, and then look at the coat of arms which is
5 on the document 1129, which is the last document.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What difference is there, as
8 far as you're concerned? I can see what the difference is, but I had
9 rather you tell me.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the document 1129 is
11 a document issued by the Croatian Community of Soli, so this is probably
12 their way of marking the memorandum. The previous document, 1138, is
13 issued by the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna. And you can't really
14 see the complete symbol here, but it was the symbol of Herceg-Bosna.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since you know how the HVO used
16 to work in Tuzla
17 the one you would find in Capljina or in Mostar, or did you have the
18 feeling that it was different, as we can see from the stamps, the
19 headings, the titles of the documents, or the reference to the Croatian
20 Community of Soli? Were there some differences, and if so, what were the
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honours, I cannot
23 say anything about the difference you're asking about, because I think
24 this would be a political assessment which I am unable to provide. As
25 the Chief of Staff of the 2nd Corps, what mattered to me was that the
1 brigades of the Croatian Defence Council carried out their combat
2 assignments. At that time, I was not interested in politics.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you. Your
4 answer will be on the transcript, and I will perhaps ask the question of
5 other witnesses who will appear in this court of law.
6 I now turn to the other Defence counsel.
7 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon,
8 Your Honours. Good afternoon to all. The Defence of Mr. Coric has no
9 questions for this witness. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
12 Thank you.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your Honours.
15 Good to everyone in and around the courtroom.
16 We have no questions for the gentleman, although we do thank him
17 for coming here to give his evidence, and we wish him safe passage back
18 to his home.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Mr. Kovacic.
21 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I wish to
22 ask only one question of the witness. I have a document which I think is
23 similar to the ones we have seen, so I would like to have the witness see
25 Could the usher help us, please.
1 [In English] The number of the document I will use is 3D00312.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. I appear on behalf of
4 General Praljak. As you have just spoken, and this is on page 6, line 17
5 of the transcript, saying that people from your area also went to Split
6 for medical treatment, I wish to ask you whether you know whether other
7 kinds of assistance arrived from Split
8 equipment, and so on of the same sort that you received from Croatia
9 A. Your Honours, we did receive assistance from the clinical
10 hospital in Split
11 Mostar, and I can't say whether it was on the first or second visit, I
12 found there a group of representatives of the Tuzla authorities who were
13 just coming back from Split
14 that we were receiving some assistance from there, and they also said
15 that some of our wounded were being given medical treatment there. And
16 this only goes to confirm what I said when answering the first question.
17 This document is one I have not seen before, but I recognise the
18 signature. I recognise Mr. Beslagic and Mr. Sead Avdic who were in the
19 Logistics Centre. Whenever it was possible, everyone who gave us
20 assistance was sent a letter of thanks, so I assume this was the case
21 here too. This was sent to Dr. Dodig, the head of the hospital.
22 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you very much. Thank you for your response,
23 and thank you for coming to testify here.
24 Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further questions.
25 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence of
1 General Petkovic has no questions for this witness.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
3 We have completed the cross-examinations of the Defence teams of
4 the other accused. Ms. West, would you prefer to have the break now and
5 we start after the break, or would you like to start now?
6 MS. WEST: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours, and
7 everyone in and around the courtroom.
8 I prefer to start now.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So do start.
10 Ms. West, we have the binder, so you can start.
11 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Cross-examination by Ms. West:
13 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
14 A. [In English] Good afternoon.
15 Q. My name is Kim West. I'm an attorney with the Office of the
16 Prosecutor. I'm going to ask you a few questions today.
17 You indicated yesterday that you graduated from the Military
18 Academy in 1971. Do you remember that testimony?
19 A. [Interpretation] Your Honours, I graduated from the Military
20 Academy in 1971. I completed the Command Staff Academy
21 in 1985, and after the war I was in the NATO school as well.
22 Q. And what was your specialisation at the Academy.
23 A. After completing the Academy, my specialisation was communication
24 and signals, and after graduating from the Command Staff Academy
25 trained as a soldier, as a professional mass-murderer, I have to say,
1 because all officers in the world, after completing this academy, are
2 able to lead a huge war machinery which is used to kill if politics so
3 decides. This means that I was appointed to the highest command duties,
4 and to an even greater degree after my training in the NATO school.
5 Q. Thank you, sir. But let's focus on communications. You said you
6 specialised in communications at the academy, and in 1986, when you went
7 to Tuzla
8 A. In 1971, 1971.
9 Q. When did you move to Tuzla
10 A. I moved to Tuzla
11 which was in 1985.
12 Q. And when you first arrived in Tuzla, did you become a major in
13 the Communications Department?
14 A. Yes, that's what I became at first, yes.
15 Q. Where do you live now?
16 A. I live in Tuzla
19 obligations. I work in the management of Tuzla Airport. I'm the
20 president of the Rotary Club and of several committees.
21 Q. And, sir, do you have children?
22 A. I have two children, a son who lives and works in Tuzla - he's
23 married - and a daughter who lives and works in Canada, where she's
25 Q. Were they both born in Tuzla
1 A. No, they were born in Croatia
2 Q. Yesterday, you had indicated, in response to a question from
3 Judge Antonetti -- he had asked you about the conflict in Central Bosnia
4 and in part of your answer, you said:
5 "I worked for three years as a scientific adviser of the
6 Institute for Investigating War Documents in Amsterdam, and in my work
7 there I dealt with many of these issues."
8 What years did you work in Amsterdam
9 A. Your Honours, I have to clarify a little. I worked not as an
10 adviser, but as a scientific associate under contract at the NIART
11 [phoen], the Institute for Investigating War Documents in Amsterdam. The
12 Parliament of the Kingdom of the Netherlands
13 project which was investigating the role of DutchBat in Srebrenica and in
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I worked on this from 1999 until 2001 with a team of
16 In addition to this, I was also a scientific associate in the
17 Institute for Investigating War Crimes for Dr. Smail Cekic in Sarajevo
18 I also had many duties, together with him, in throwing light on crimes in
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And, thirdly, I had a contract working as a
20 scientific associate of the Bosniak Institute in Sarajevo, with
21 Mr. Adil Zulfikarpasic for two years. I had a contract under which I was
22 free, in my research, to choose my topic of research, and I was given
23 office space in the institute to work in.
24 Q. Sir, as a result of this experience and this work that you did,
25 did you have the opportunity to gain a broader perspective of what
1 happened in the war? And what I mean by that is a perspective of what
2 happened outside of Tuzla
3 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, in the course of my research I
4 gained a very good picture of what had been happening in general and in
5 some parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in particular segments in the course of
6 the past war. When working for Dr. Smail Cekic in the Institute for
7 Investigating War Crimes, which I mentioned, I gave papers in conferences
8 organised by the institute; and one of my papers concerned the project of
9 Greater Serbia
10 Another project I worked on was a seminar paper in my
11 post-graduate studies, and it dealt with international -- the
12 International Laws of War and the status of the protected zones --
13 protected areas in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 When preparing this paper on the project of Greater Serbia, I
15 made a thorough study of numerous documents, and I assert that all the
16 events in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and before that in Croatia
17 occur by chance, but were the result of a project envisioned about 100
18 years ago. I drew attention to the need to study the writings of Serbian
19 authors, starting with Garasanin onwards, and to link these up with the
20 speeches made by Milosevic and Karadzic, and their actions, and what was
21 done in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
22 Q. Thank you, sir. I'd like to ask you a bit about the demographics
23 of the area from which you're -- where you live now in Tuzla
24 If we can look at P10068, it's a map, and if we can have map 39,
25 please. It's going to come up on the screen in front of you. It might
1 be the easiest way.
2 So this is a map outlining the ethnic composition of
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Sir, if you can go to actually in your book --
4 A. I apologise, but I still don't seem to have the map.
5 Q. If you can actually look in your book. Why don't you go to
6 10068. You have it. There we go.
7 So this is a map, an ethnic map of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it
8 also identifies areas outlined by the Vance-Owen Peace Plan. You can't
9 see the bottom of the map, but I'll represent to you it says the ethnic
10 composition of Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1991, and the Vance-Owen Peace
11 Plan, 25 March 1993
12 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
13 You have to answer verbally.
14 A. Your Honour, yes, that is the map of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 Q. And as a result of your experience in the war and also your
16 studies and research afterwards, are you familiar generally with the
17 Vance-Owen Peace Plan?
18 A. In general terms, I know of the plan, but I don't know the
19 details of it.
20 Q. That's fine, we won't get into the details. But if you look at
21 the map, you'll see that the areas 8 and 10, do you see those in front of
22 you, those are generally the areas of Herceg-Bosna; and the area of 3,
23 which is the Posavina, would you agree with me those were the areas that
24 the Vance-Owen Peace Plan anticipated would go to the Croats?
25 A. As I said, I knew about the Vance-Owen Peace Plan, and as soon as
1 I saw it I didn't think it would survive, and this is what happened later
2 on, and that's what I think now. I don't think it was a very clever
4 Q. Sir, why didn't you think it was a clever plan?
5 A. Well, first of all, because of the people that devised it, and,
6 secondly, because politics never envisaged Bosnia-Herzegovina that way,
7 and it could never survive that way, as had been envisaged. But the only
8 thing I recognise is that the -- is the policy and politics of Yalta
9 where Stalin and Churchill discussed world affairs, and when Churchill
10 drew a line with his blue pen along the Drina and said, You're the East
11 over there and you're the West. And the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina was
12 considered the West and could not be divided up as conceived by
13 Vance-Owen or anybody else.
14 Q. Is let's talk about the ethnicities of the municipalities as
15 indicated by this map, and let's focus first on Tuzla, because that's
16 where you spent the last 24 years. Would you agree with me that Tuzla
17 predominantly a Muslim municipality?
18 A. Could you explain what you mean when you say "Tuzla
19 mean the town of Tuzla
20 because they are all different things and my answer will depend upon what
21 you mean exactly.
22 Q. Fair enough. I mean the Tuzla
24 A. As for the Tuzla
25 it's very difficult to deal with concepts that way. The town itself is
1 mostly inhabited by Muslims. There's a Muslim majority, but all the
2 local communes around there and if you look at the land registers, the
3 land is owned mostly by Croats, so we would have to differentiate there
4 in order to have the proper answer and would have to limit ourselves to
5 the exact area we have in mind.
6 Q. Okay. So I gather it's your testimony that the town of Tuzla
7 predominantly Muslim, or the majority was Muslim, but the area around the
8 area of Tuzla
9 A. Your Honours and Madam Prosecutor, no, that's not right. When I
10 say "the town," the town, I said, Yes, the Muslims were in the majority,
11 the majority population in the town, but I said as for the land register,
12 the Croatian population owned the land according to the land registers.
13 I don't know if you understand me.
14 Q. Well, I don't want to know who owned the land. I just generally
15 want to know whether in the entire municipality of Tuzla
16 talking about only the town of Tuzla
18 A. Yes, I agree with you there.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, let's look at the municipalities around Tuzla
20 and specifically I think the best way to do this is to talk about those
21 municipalities that come under the 2nd Corps command. Yesterday, you
22 mentioned a number of those, and let's go through those and others to see
23 if they come under the 2nd Corps.
24 Let's start in the lower -- well, let's start in Srebrenica. You
25 can find that on the map; correct?
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I just thought about
2 what you had just said, which is rather troublesome. On the map that we
3 have, which was shown by Ms. West, as far as negotiations based in Geneva
4 were concerned they were convinced that the entirety of the Tuzla
5 as it is marked on the map, was predominantly Muslim. This is what
6 appears on the key of the map. And you actually just said that in the
7 town, indeed, Muslims were the majority population, but you added
8 something regarding the land register. It may have gone off the wayside,
9 but actually the land register reflects the various plots of land which
10 belong to landowners, and I assume -- I've never been to Tuzla, but I
11 assume that around the town of Tuzla
12 farmers working, because the Tuzla
13 it's the number-one production item, but there must be some farmers
14 producing vegetable and fruits; and if I understood correctly, according
15 to you, the landowners of those agricultural plots were mainly Croats.
16 Is that what you said to us?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Judge Antonetti,
18 that's precisely what I meant.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It means that if
20 those based in Geneva
21 is the area number 5 on the map, was going to be a Muslim area, of course
22 it would lead to some problems for Croat landowners who seemed to have
23 the entirety of the farming plots in the surrounding areas of Tuzla
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely, yes.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now I understand
1 what you said.
2 Ms. West, you can proceed.
3 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. Sir, if we can just go back to those municipalities that were
5 under the control of the 2nd Corps, and start with Srebrenica. Was that
6 a municipality underneath or under the auspices of the 2nd Corps?
7 A. Your Honours, that municipality was under the Tuzla district, and
8 there was a municipal staff of the Territorial Defence there before the
9 war and during the war. It was mostly physically separate, but it did
10 come under the 2nd Corps. There was the 28th Division over there, and we
11 know what the fate of that was with the events around Srebrenica.
12 Q. And Srebrenica is a municipality with an absolute Muslim
13 majority; correct?
14 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, in Srebrenica at present there
15 are 27 Croats living there. There's a Catholic Church. I was there
16 quite recently, so I know this for certain. And you're quite right, the
17 majority of the population was always the Muslim population.
18 Q. Thank you. We may need assistance from the usher, but I think
19 that you can take the pen and mark on the screen, and as we go through
20 these municipalities maybe you can just put a dot on each one that you
21 agree falls under the 2nd Corps command.
22 So if you can put a dot on Srebrenica.
23 A. I beg your pardon, but do you want me to mark the municipalities
24 that came under the 2nd Corps or do you mean the municipalities which
25 came under the Tuzla
1 Q. Municipalities that came under the 2nd Corps.
2 A. Very well. [Marks] Srebrenica.
3 Q. What about Bratunac?
4 A. [Marks] Bratunac.
5 Q. Do you agree with me that Bratunac has an absolute majority of
6 Muslims in it as well?
7 A. Yes, I agree.
8 Q. What about Vlasenica?
9 A. [Marks] Vlasenica.
10 Q. Would you agree that Vlasenica has an absolute majority of Muslim
12 A. Yes, I agree.
13 Q. So to go a little bit faster, let's do this in a group. Zvornik,
14 Kalesija, Zivinice and Kladanj, those four in green above the red, are
15 those all part of the 2nd Corps?
16 A. I'm sorry, but I didn't understand what you said. Zvornik -- I
17 see it on the transcript. Zvornik, yes [Marks]. Kladanj [Marks].
18 Q. And just north of Kladanj, that municipality as well, do you see
19 that? It's Z-i-v-i-n-i-c-e.
20 A. [Marks] Zivinice.
21 Q. And just to its east, the next municipality, Kalesija.
22 A. [Marks] Kalesija.
23 Q. Are those municipalities also under the auspices of the
24 2nd Corps?
25 A. Well, you couldn't put it that way, exactly. The 2nd Corps was
1 formed from the District Staff of the Territorial Defence. Before the
2 war, all these municipalities, with their municipal staffs, came under
3 the composition of the District Staff of Tuzla, and let me point out that
4 that was before the war. Now, when the war broke out, after the decision
5 by the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina to turn the Territorial Defence
6 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the armed force of Bosnia-Herzegovina, only 13
7 municipalities out of the pre-war ones that came under the district of
9 Q. All right. Let me ask you a different question. Do you see all
10 the municipalities in the area of number 5, going north-west towards
12 in the area right around Tuzla
13 are though all under the 2nd Corps?
14 A. I can continue to explain, but I don't see why you don't want me
15 to continue with these municipalities, Lukavac, Srebrenik, Gracanica,
16 that was all 2nd Corps, Banovici.
17 Q. Perfect. Then just on the map put a mark on each municipality
18 that was part of the 2nd Corps.
19 A. Let's take it in order. Srebrenik [Marks]. Then up there north
20 of Tuzla
21 2nd Corps, for example, we had part of the Lopare municipality, and
22 because part of it remained under Chetnik territory, so how do you want
23 me to mark that?
24 Q. Maybe you can just put a "1" slash through it rather than an X.
25 Just put a "1" through it.
1 A. Very well, I'll put Lopare [Marks], the whole of Tuzla -- well,
2 the whole of Lukavac, we can say that, yes [Marks], Banovici [Marks],
3 Gracanica, part of the Gradacac municipality, so I'll put a 1 or half an
4 X [Marks], part of the Brcko, the same thing, I'll put a 1 [Marks], part
5 of the Doboj municipality --
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I have
7 sort of a military question to ask you, because my attention is now drawn
8 to the area where you have figure 6, which is a Serb area, Sekovici, can
9 you see? Where you see the figure 6, can you confirm that this area was
10 held by the Serbs?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honour, I would
12 like us to draw a line here which was the boundary of the call line or
13 the line towards the Serbs, and then this whole story would be clearer.
14 For example, Sekovici municipality did not come under the call zone.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, since it's Ms. West who is
16 examining you based on this map, I don't know whether this is of any use
17 to you.
18 Ms. West, the witness would like to draw a line which would be
19 the front-line with the Serbs. Would that be of any use to you?
20 MS. WEST: Yes.
21 Q. Sir, go ahead.
22 A. Your Honours, that's -- I'm proposing this, because it's very
23 difficult, looking at this map. This is the prewar situation. During
24 the war, numerous municipalities were set up, and this map doesn't
25 reflect that, doesn't correspond to that newly-arisen situation, so I'll
1 try and do it. Although it's difficult technically, I'll try and do a
2 separation line with the Chetniks so you can see what the 2nd Corps
4 Let's start with Gradacac municipality [Marks]. Perhaps I'm
5 going to take a bigger portion here, but, anyway, Gracanica -- this is
6 just a rough picture. Olovo [Marks] --
7 MR. KARNAVAS: If we could have a time-frame. What time is the
8 gentleman speaking of? And when he refers to Chetniks, perhaps he can
9 give us a clarification. Is this the VRS, and if so, I would appreciate
10 that we don't use the pejorative term for Serbs as Chetniks.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, yes. Yesterday, you
12 made a clear distinction between the Chetniks and the Serbs, and earlier
13 on you mentioned Chetniks. I conclude from this that, for you, those --
14 the people that occupied those front-lines were not the Serbs in the
15 meaning you described yesterday, which were the JNA soldiers. So when
16 you talk about Chetniks, what are you talking about, exactly?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I say "Chetnik," I'm mean
18 something positive. At the beginning, the concept of Chetnik was
19 something positive. Through history, let me put it this way, there were
20 units -- there were units which fought for their freedom and their free
21 territory, but in World War II and in this most recent war that we're
22 discussing here and now, as far as we're concerned, the notion of Chetnik
23 became something with a very negative connotation; and so I would like
24 the Trial Chamber to understand that and respect that, because for me the
25 term "Chetnik" does not mean a Serb. And let me say that my wife is a
1 Serb, so if to no other reason, then for that reason; but also for the
2 reason that I am a religious man myself and I respect each and every
3 human being, regardless of their nation or creed or religion. So when I
4 say "Chetnik" here, you can take that to mean the army. I don't know,
5 was it the Republika Srpska Army, is that what it was called? Anyway,
6 they were our enemies at the time.
7 MS. WEST:
8 Q. Sir, have you finished putting the front-line on the map?
9 A. Well, roughly, I'll draw it in. We have this part here [Marks],
10 which was physically separated from us. I don't know if you can see
11 that, but I've just drawn it in. It is the Tesanj and Maglaj and Zepce
12 municipalities, where we had our BH Army brigades and also the 110th
13 Brigade of the HVO.
14 Q. And those municipalities are part -- are under the 2nd Corps as
15 well; yes?
16 A. Yes. I mean, not the municipalities, as such, but the military
18 Q. So if you can put an X on those areas as well.
19 A. Yes [Marks]. And then we have over here - I'll try and draw it
20 in - part of the Srebrenica area [Marks]. It would be roughly this, if
21 you can see it. So this largest part was a compact territory under the
22 2nd Corps, and we had two separate entities. Srebrenica was one and part
23 of Tesanj and Maglaj formed the other.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay. This is my question, a
25 military type of question: You've just drawn the front-lines. My
1 question is the following: How come that the area occupied by the Serbs,
2 area number 6, why they are surrounded by you, because the is 2nd Corps
3 is in the Srebrenica area and was also present north of that area held by
4 the Serbs? Now, how come this Serb-held area managed to resist and did
5 not fall under the command of the 2nd Corps, while you indicated yourself
6 that you had 80.000 men in the 2nd Corps?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President and Your Honours,
8 under the 2nd Corps composition, and I'll provide you with the precise
9 information, at the beginning of the war we had 49.531 members. That was
10 the first year of the war. In 1993, we had 77.647 soldiers. However,
11 and I spoke about this yesterday, with that numerical supremacy, and we
12 always had numerical supremacy in terms of soldiers and officers, we had
13 4.400 officers in the corps, the opposite side had absolute technical
15 And you know, and this is common knowledge, that after the
16 withdrawal of the Yugoslav Army from Slovenia, most of those troops came
17 to Bosnia
18 zone, specifically the one I've just depicted, and let me show you again
19 the broader region around Zvornik and Sekovici, I'll draw a thicker line
20 there [Marks], an armoured brigade from Jastrebarsko arrived. The
21 armoured brigade from Jastrebarsko, according to its formation
22 establishment, had over 100 tanks alone; and so, Your Honours, with great
23 human suffering and all the rest of it, we managed to capture 27 tanks, I
24 believe, and that was all the tanks we had.
25 So in addition to the armoured brigade from Jastrebarsko and the
1 broader region of South-East Bosnia, other armoured forces arrived.
2 So as I said yesterday, to every one of our shells, they had a
3 thousand of their own. One of our tanks, they had -- for one of our
4 tanks, they had twenty-five. So the ratio was 1:25 there. So the line
5 that we were able to establish, the defence line, we were able to hold
6 throughout the war, and in 1993 and 1994 we managed to cross over into a
7 tactical and operative offensive, and so we managed to expand the area of
8 this territory. However, in 1992 and 1993, militarily speaking, it was
9 absolutely impossible to do more than we managed to do, because the enemy
10 forces were far greater. They had many more weapons, and you know that
11 in 1992 the use of the air force came into play, and we didn't have an
12 air force. So this was an unequal battle, looking at it on the basis of
13 MTS, materiel and technical equipment.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you've explained that
15 the area covered by number 6 was -- you could not occupy it because there
16 were 100 armoured vehicles there. Now, at the time, and this will be my
17 last question, the solution could not be a military one, because you
18 would never have managed to occupy these areas, so the solution could
19 only be political; yes or no?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Mr. President, but
21 could you repeat that question, please? I don't think I understood it.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I'll repeat my
24 You've just told us that in area number 6, there were 100
25 armoured vehicles. You managed to seize about 26, but about 80 were
1 still remaining. And you've just told us that the Serbian forces were
2 very numerous and very well equipped, which means that one could
3 conclude, according to what you've told us, that the solution could not
4 be a military one, you could not manage to beat the Serbs, and so the
5 solution could only be a political one?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, your question is clear
7 to me now, but let me make a correction.
8 We did not capture 26 out of 100 tanks, but throughout the war,
9 in other areas where we fought also, the total number of tanks we
10 captured was 26. In addition to this, I have to add, to confirm what
11 Your Honour said, and you can see this on the map, this side had
12 unlimited assistance from Yugoslavia
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation][Previous translation
14 continues] ... anything. I'm just asking you a question.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Because if you are saying this,
17 all the counsels will be up on their feet, so it's just a question.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour, Your Honours,
19 that a political solution was the only solution possible, and I felt that
20 way before the war broke out. But unfortunately it did not materialise,
21 so we did whatever we were able to, as soldiers. What politicians were
22 able to do, I cannot comment on.
23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you're asking
24 about number 6, but there are three areas marked "6," and at least in the
25 interpretation into Croatian, it seems that you consider the Serbs had a
1 sort of enclave in number 6, but this was all held by them, and it was
2 actually the 2nd Corps that was encircled. So they had tactical
3 manoeuvres in all the areas marked "6."
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, General Praljak is
5 right, there are three number 6s here, but my question is regarding area
6 number 6 in the middle. Well, I can't really see now. The one really in
7 the middle, just -- the Kovaci.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I understood you,
9 and that's the area I was thinking of also.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you had the same area in
11 mind. Very good, then.
12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Well, actually, there are four
13 number 6s on this map.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, there are four,
15 but we were talking about the "6" really at the top.
16 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Q. Sir, let's go back to the map, and let's finish up what I
18 originally asked you, which is: Put an X in the municipalities that were
19 under the auspices of the 2nd Corps. So I think probably the last place
20 that we're talking about is the Posavina area. Is that part -- was that
21 part of the 2nd Corps?
22 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, a part of Posavina did belong to
23 the 2nd Corps to the south of Brcko. I'm drawing a line here [Marks],
24 and this is where we kept trying to break through the enemy corridor and
25 reach the Sava River
1 have belonged to us. But the actual area of the corps was as I marked
3 Q. Thank you. So would you agree with me of the areas you have
4 marked, they mostly appear to be green; is that fair to say?
5 A. Yes, that's obvious.
6 Q. And in regard to the blue areas, at least in the Posavina, we do
7 have some blue municipalities in the very north -- northern Posavina. Is
8 it your testimony that those are Croatian areas?
9 A. Your Honours, I don't know how Madam Prosecutor -- I don't know
10 what she means when she said "Croatian." It's all Bosnia-Herzegovina.
11 But if you're asking about the colour, yes, those areas are blue.
12 Q. And I will be more precise in my question. Are those
13 municipalities -- was that the ethnic make-up of those municipalities,
14 was it a majority of Croats living there?
15 A. Your Honours, I can't be certain about that, but I think that's
16 correct. And if that's how it's represented on the map, I assume that's
17 how it was.
18 Q. All right, sir. If we can -- we're going to take a break
19 shortly, but I think we can finish this up.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would you like to have an IC
21 number for this map?
22 MS. WEST: Excuse me. Yes, please, Mr. President.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the marked version of the map shall
24 be given Exhibit IC00964. Thank you, Your Honours.
25 MS. WEST:
1 Q. But, Mr. Witness, let's continue to look at this map, and if you
2 can look down to the areas that are number 8 and number 10. Would you
3 agree with me that that area on the map is what was considered
5 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour, but I
6 object because the Croatian Community of Soli, Posavina, Sarajevo, and
7 Central Bosnia
8 of the 17th of October, 1992; so I think the question is not precise
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine, fine. Madam Nozica, you
11 should not here testify. Let Ms. West proceed, and then if you have
12 questions at the end, you can put additional questions.
13 So, Ms. West, please put your question again, because we've lost
15 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President. I would ask that that
16 question [sic] be stricken from the record as testimony.
17 Q. For the purposes of this question, if we can look to the areas of
18 8 and 10. Do you see those areas in front of you?
19 A. Yes, I do see areas 8 and 10 on the map.
20 Q. And let's assume, for the purposes of my question, that
21 municipalities covered in blue -- coloured in blue are those that have an
22 absolute majority of Croats in them. Do you see several blue
23 municipalities in the area of 8 and 10?
24 A. Yes, I see the areas marked blue.
25 Q. And would you agree with me that most of those areas are actually
1 buttressed or at least sided to the west with Croatia; they are close up
2 to Croatia
3 A. Yes, I agree with that.
4 Q. Now, if we look at the rest of 8 and 10, would you agree that
5 there is not so much blue; a lot of 8 and 10 in the middle area would be,
6 for the purposes of this question, the green-coloured areas as Muslim
7 areas? The question is: Those areas are mostly green; correct?
8 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wish to
9 object to this line of questioning. I think that the Prosecutor is
10 asking the witness to speculate and to interpret the colours on the map.
11 The witness said that he had no personal knowledge of where there was a
12 majority and where a minority population -- we can all see what the
13 colours are on the map. All the witness is saying is, I have to trust
14 the map. The witness was not told who compiled this map for what
15 purpose, and the witness cannot know whether he can or cannot trust the
16 map if he has no personal knowledge of the make-up of the population in
17 areas other than the area he lived and worked in. That's why I'm
18 objecting to this line of questioning, and I don't see what it's leading
19 up to.
20 Thank you.
21 MS. WEST: Mr. President, that's the reason that in --
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 MS. WEST: That's the reason in the question I said "for the
24 purposes of this question." I would not ask this witness, who's lived in
1 majority ethnic groups in that area.
2 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, I do support my learned friend --
3 my learned friend's interjection at the outset. The map really does
4 speak for itself. Nothing more needs to be said, and if my learned
5 friend for the Prosecution wishes to ask precise questions, of course
6 there is no objection; but asking a very subjective evaluation, for
7 example, in the area delineated in number 8, subjectively is it more blue
8 or more green, it really doesn't take us very far. The map shows what it
9 shows, and I would ask my learned friend to move on and ask precise
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, the map seemingly was
12 drawn on the basis of the census of 1991, so those people that plotted
13 the map had those figures from the census of 1991, from 1 to 10, as part
14 of the Vance-Owen Plan. They marked this map with a colour code which
15 matched the ethnic composition at the time, so what we see here cannot be
16 challenged, since it is based on the census of 1991. If you put the
17 question to him and say, In Livno, there was 50 percent Croats, he can
18 only say, Yes. What is more interesting, however, is the question you
19 want to put to him; so please go to the point and put your question.
20 My colleague says it would be best after the break, so let's have
21 the break, so you can prepare your question, and we shall meet again in
22 20 minutes' time.
23 --- Recess taken at 4.03 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 4.24 p.m.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, you have the floor.
1 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. Sir, I believe the map is still in front of you on the screen.
3 A. Yes, I can see it.
4 Q. Okay. And if we look you up, you would agree with me to the
5 right of Bosnia-Herzegovina, although it's not in red, this is Serbia
7 A. Yes, I agree.
8 Q. And that the area in number 4 that is red, that's an area that
9 the Serbian controlled; correct?
10 A. That's how it is on the map. That's how it's represented on the
12 Q. In 1992, is it your memory that the Serbs controlled that area?
13 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, if I may, I would object. We should
14 be careful here. This is a map, as you rightly said so, Your Honour,
15 based on a census of population, and Vance-Owen Plan is projected on
16 that, so this is not the reality. This is simply a plan, and the witness
17 might be very easily confused by that.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, please break down
19 your questions and ask the witness whether, according to what he knows,
20 area number 4 in 1992 and 1993 was controlled by the Serbs or not,
21 because we know that in area 4 there was a majority of Serbs. Whether
22 this area was controlled by the Serb Army, I don't know, but maybe he
24 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. Sir, if you look at the area on the map that's number 2, and the
1 number 2 is right in the middle of Banja Luka, in 1992 was this an area
2 that was predominantly controlled by the Serbs?
3 A. Excuse me. Do you mean in military terms, under the control of
4 the Serbs? I don't understand.
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. Sir, you've heard of the Posavina corridor before; correct?
8 A. I've never heard of the Posavina corridor. I don't know what you
9 mean by it. The Posavinski corridor, I don't understand.
10 Q. Okay. Well, the area between, for the purposes of the question,
11 number 4 and number 2, which is a thin piece of land that is not --
12 mostly in red, and it's number 3, would you consider that to be the
14 You have to answer out loud.
15 A. The area marked with the number 3 on the map which I see before
16 me is one part of Posavina, only one part of it. Posavina is a much
17 broader concept.
18 Q. Fair enough. But in 1992, you were in the 2nd Corps and you were
19 fighting in this particular area; correct?
20 A. Your Honours, in what area, in Posavina or in the area we marked
21 a little while ago?
22 Q. My apologies, Mr. Witness. I'll be very specific. Let's talk
23 about the area of Brcko. Do you see that on the map?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And in 1992, was there fighting in Brcko?
1 A. Yes, from the time Arkan and his units entered Brcko.
2 Q. And in 1992, was there also fighting in Bosanski Brod?
3 A. Yes, in 1992 there was also fighting in Bosanski Brod.
4 Q. Now, if you can tell us, what was the fighting about? Or,
5 rather, strike that. Who were the parties involved in the fight?
6 A. In the beginning, it could hardly be called "combat." It was a
7 slaughter of the civilian population.
8 Q. Okay. Mr. Witness, let's just back up for a second. So my first
9 question is: Who were the parties involved?
10 A. The citizens and the paramilitary Serbian forces.
11 Q. And were the citizens --
12 A. Excuse me, a correction. When I say "citizens," I'm referring to
13 unarmed civilians, because it was not actually a fight, it was not
14 combat. The civilians were simply killed in the streets of Brcko.
15 Q. Sir, let's look at P10894, and you can open it up in your binder.
16 P10894. We can read this -- the beginning of this together, and I'm
17 going to ask you some questions as we go along.
18 This is a May 9th, 1993
19 "The pipeline from Serbia
20 supplied spits out its last few drops here in Serb-controlled
21 south-western Croatia
22 "Those drops mean life to Knin, capital of the Serbs'
23 self-proclaimed Krajina republic in Croatia, and the birthplace of the
24 uprising three years ago that preceded savage [indiscernible] war in
1 "To cut supplies to the Bosnian Serbs, as Yugoslavia
2 do, would weaken this furthest outpost of Serb-held territory in former
4 forces that are determined to regain control of the land ..."
5 Let's just stop there. Here it's talking about a pipeline and
6 about an area where there was an effort to cut supplies. Would you agree
7 with me that that pipeline is in the area of the Posavina that we just
8 talked about?
9 A. Your Honours, from this document I see that mention is made of
10 South-Western Croatia
11 Q. Okay, let's go back. Let's go back to the question that I asked,
12 and I'll read it to you again.
13 Would you agree with me that the pipeline is in the area of the
14 Posavina and that's what we just talked about? So the question is
15 focusing on pipeline.
16 A. Your Honour, please excuse me, but for me a pipeline is for oil.
17 What is this about? I don't understand this at all, and I see that this
18 is about Croatia
19 Q. Mr. Witness, we'll read a little bit more, and then maybe you can
20 determine what this is about. It goes on to say:
21 "'We call it the corridor of life,' said Vice-Premier
22 Bronco Ljubovic of the Croatia-Serb self-proclaimed government. He and
23 other Serb leaders spoke to the reporter during a visit Thursday and
24 Friday. Serb-domination Yugoslavia
25 international pressure that it would cut off supplies to the Bosnian
1 Serbs after they once again refused to endorse an international peace
2 plan. One of the Bosnian Serbs' main objections to the plan is that it
3 would force them to turn over to the United Nations a narrow corridor
4 across Northern Bosnia that supplied Serb-controlled areas centred around
5 Banja Luka."
6 Mr. Makar, my question to you is: This narrow corridor to which
7 this article refers, is this the corridor that goes across the Posavina?
8 A. Your Honours, I can only agree that that was what the Serbs
9 called it, that's how they referred to it in their news broadcasts. We
10 did not refer to it by that name.
11 Q. How did you refer to it?
12 A. Your Honours, we didn't refer to it at all. We fought there on a
13 territory, and for a long time in the beginning there was no corridor
14 there for the Serbs.
15 Q. Okay, Mr. Makar. I'm sure this is just a misunderstanding
16 between the two of us, but you said that, We did not refer to it by that
17 name. And then I said, How did you refer to it? And then you said:
18 "We didn't refer to it at all. We fought there on a territory,
19 and for a long time from the beginning there was no corridor there for
20 the Serbs."
21 Sir, my question is only: Do you recognise that there was a
22 corridor in the Posavina area that provided military supplies and other
23 supplies to the Serbs in the western part of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Do you
24 recognise that?
25 A. Your Honours, that's open to discussion, and it's very hard to
1 provide a response to that. We held that territory under artillery fire
2 throughout the time, so that any passage there would have been highly
3 risky and there would have been huge casualties, because the 2nd Corps,
4 since it had insufficient MTS, artillery and tanks, had very strong
5 artillery support from the forces of Operative Group Bosnian Posavina,
6 Orasje. They had strong artillery forces, so one could hardly speak of a
7 corridor. It was more like a death road for the other side.
8 Q. Fair enough. Now, on this death road, was there heavy fighting?
9 A. Yes, and I was there myself.
10 Q. All right. So you have personal knowledge of the fighting going
11 on over this death road?
12 A. Yes, yes, I do, and unfortunately very bad memories, because
13 dozens of people were killed right next to me.
14 Q. Okay. How long were you posted there?
15 A. The 2nd Corps was always where there was the most fierce
16 fighting, and wherever there was such fighting, forward command posts
17 were established. Just to clarify to Their Honours and Madam Prosecutor,
18 that would be a group of officers with certain communications equipment
19 which would go to that part of the zone of the 2nd Corps where there was
20 the heaviest fighting in order to be able to get an overview of the
21 situation directly, establish direct communication with the front-line.
22 And I was posted there at the head of one such group of officers
23 throughout the second half of 1992, almost throughout that entire period,
24 and in January 1993.
25 Q. And even after you left that post, the fighting continued;
2 A. The fighting never stopped there.
3 Q. All right. Let's continue with this article. It says:
4 "The 220-mile-long --"
5 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly read slowly for the sake of the
6 interpreters and the court reporter, please.
7 MS. WEST: Yes, apologies.
8 "The 220-mile-long corridor runs from Knin, Croatia
9 top of Bosnia
10 Brcko and northern Bosnia
11 has seen heavy fighting throughout the war. The patchwork of territory
12 seized in a year of gives the Serbs no other way to keep arms, fuel, food
13 and other goods flowing through much of Bosnia."
14 Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that the Serbs used this death
15 road, as you called it, to supply Serbian-held areas in Western
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Krajina?
17 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, I don't know what the Serbs did
18 and whether they supplied those areas that you're referring to. What was
19 important, as far as I was concerned, that anybody trying to pass through
20 that territory, that we targeted them if they attempted to do so.
21 Q. Would you agree with me that Croatia
22 Serbs were using a corridor for supplies and fuel and food?
23 A. Your Honours, I can't really answer that. I can just give you my
24 opinion, and I don't think my opinion is important, what Croatia thought.
25 I don't know.
1 Q. Mr. Makar, you told us about the research you've done about the
2 war and you've also agreed that you have a general perspective of what
3 went on in the war, and you left the BiH as a brigadier general. So are
4 you telling this Trial Chamber that you have no knowledge of what the
5 other parties designed or had goals for in the war?
6 A. Well, it's not true that I don't know that.
7 Q. Okay. So let's try again. Would you agree with me that Croatia
8 would have a concern if the Serbs were using the corridor for supplies
9 and fuel and food?
10 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
12 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't wish to be testifying or anything, but
13 perhaps the question, if it was phrased a little bit tighter. It's
14 overly broad, concerned for what reason. And perhaps she could lay the
15 factual predicate so the gentleman could then understand exactly what
16 she's asking the gentleman to opine on.
17 MS. WEST: Mr. President, I believe the gentleman was about to
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, try and be as
20 accurate as you can. I must humbly say that I don't understand what you
21 are getting at. I don't understand what the purpose of all this is.
22 Maybe things will become clearer over the next few minutes.
23 MS. WEST:
24 Q. Mr. Makar, go ahead. I had asked you:
25 "Would you agree with me that the Croatians would have had a
1 concern if the Serbs had used the corridor for supplies and fuel and
3 And you started to answer. What was your answer?
4 A. Your Honours, I tried to answer the Prosecutor, Madam West, in
5 the first hour of this discussion. Now, the Prosecutor interrupted me.
6 If she wishes me to give my own analysis of this matter, then that would
7 need special preparation on my part. Now, individual questions as to
8 what this would mean for Croatia
9 I'd like to speculate on an individual basis like that.
10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do apologise to my
11 learned friend Madam West, but as a question hasn't been asked, I'd like
12 to raise a general objection.
13 We have a witness about the facts, he's here to testify about the
14 facts, and I think that the questions that the Prosecutor is asking him
15 now, as to what he learnt later on and what he investigated later on, are
16 questions which can be asked of an expert witness, but about a fact --
17 but when we have a fact witness, I don't think that is in order, to ask a
18 witness about subsequent knowledge.
19 And then we are delving in politics. And asked several times by
20 the Judges as well, he said that he can only speak about military
21 matters, so I think -- and I'd like to add that -- and I didn't get up to
22 my feet to object, because I know that the Prosecutor has ample leeway in
23 trying to discredit the witness, but we didn't even approach any of these
24 questions during the examination-in-chief. So I would like to object and
25 say that these questions go far, far beyond the scope of direct.
1 MS. WEST: Mr. President, if I can just --
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, I have quite a lot of
3 experience in criminal cases over the last few years. I put these
4 questions to him to see whether he could provide us with any additional
5 information on questions of a strategic or political nature. Every time,
6 he answered by saying that he was a military man, could only answer very
7 accurate questions. This is what he answered. With the knowledge you
8 have, you try and get back to this and address his profession, and you're
9 wasting your time, because he says, I don't know. Defence counsel then
10 get to their feet and raise objections, so we're wasting our time. It
11 would be better for you to get straight to the point. That would be much
13 MS. WEST: Mr. President, this witness has indicated to us that
14 he was a soldier in the field, and in fact he was in the exact area I'm
15 talking about and he saw people die. And he says that the only reason he
16 was there were to kill the Serbs going by. I find it unusual that this
17 gentleman, who not only has given us military information, who has given
18 us plenty of political information with regard to the Croatian Community
19 of Soli, and someone who has done research on war --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I didn't say the
21 Serbs, I never said "Serbs." I apologise for having to intervene there.
22 MS. WEST: Thank you. My point is, Your Honour, I find it
23 difficult for this gentleman to indicate to us that he only had an
24 understanding of the people that he was trying to kill in front of them,
25 whether they be Serbs or not, and not what the importance of this actual
1 corridor was for. It's highly unusual that a person of this
2 intelligence, of this experience, wouldn't know what is going on behind
3 the fighting, so it seems quite unusual.
4 And I'll also say the objection that this goes beyond the scope
5 of the direct seems also to be an unusual objection, certainly in the
6 cross-examination of this witness.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: Just very briefly, Your Honours. This entire
8 exchange began with the question concerning Croatia, and I assume she
9 means the Republic of Croatia
10 problems at the time in and around that area. I put precisely my
11 objection that she needs to be more specific, exactly what she's trying
12 to get at, and when she's talking about Serbs, she's talking about
14 number 1. Number 2, why is it relevant to the Prosecution's case, which
15 is probably more important, because yesterday we got a lecture from
16 Mr. Scott, who is behind her, telling us that the Defence is wasting
17 their time, and now it appears that we are either in a fishing expedition
18 or we're dealing with historical matters that have nothing to do with the
20 MS. WEST: I think Mr. Karnavas is correct, and if I can answer
21 that question in regard to the relevance, because I think it's something
22 that the Trial Chamber should be aware of.
23 The reason that we -- Mr. Scott reminded the Chamber that there
24 is a concession by the Prosecution that there are certainly places in
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina where the ABiH and the HVO cooperated, it's because
1 this is the third witness that has come before this Chamber talking about
2 the Posavina. The first witness that came before the Chamber talked
3 about pension documents of Muslim officers who served in the HVO.
4 Through the cross-examination, we tried to show that that was probably
5 very true in the Posavina, but that had no bearing and no relevance as to
6 what was going on in Herceg-Bosna. And I would submit that I think the
7 Trial Chamber agreed with that argument by precluding the admission of
8 those documents into evidence.
9 The second witness that the Stojic Defence has brought before
10 this Chamber in regard to the Posavina was Mr. Majic, who was the
11 warehouse officer at Grude; and he testified to several documents of MTS
12 going to the Posavina. And you will remember in that cross-examination,
13 which I did as well, the argument by the Office of the Prosecutor was
14 that any MTS going to the Posavina may as well -- may have happened;
15 however, there was cooperation in the Posavina, as Mr. Buljan, the first
16 pension witness, testified to as well.
17 Now, this is the third witness that has come before you who talks
18 about -- who is an ABiH commander in Tuzla, which is up near the
19 Posavina, who has told you that he was on the front-lines in the
20 Posavina, fighting to ensure that whoever is in front of him didn't get
22 Now, I would submit to you that the relevance here is to show
23 that in the Posavina, the HVO and the ABiH cooperated, and so when we
24 hear evidence that the HVO was sending MTS to the 2nd Corps in the
25 Posavina in Tuzla
1 because they were cooperating up there, but in Herceg-Bosna it's a very
2 different story. So these have been three witnesses who have all
3 offered -- proffered the same theory to the Trial Chamber, and the
4 relevance of this cross-examination is to show that the Posavina is a
5 very different animal than Herceg-Bosna.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may, just very briefly.
7 First, throughout the period we've talked -- the Prosecution has
8 advanced its theory of reverse ethnic cleansing. That's first and
9 foremost. Granted, they talk about ethnic cleansing in Central Bosnia,
10 but of course the overall joint criminal enterprise is to establish a
11 mini Croatian state within Bosnia and Herzegovina of which at some point
12 it can be annexed to Croatia
13 that, one, there is reverse ethnic cleansing or, two, that the
14 Banovina Hrvatska is trying to resurrect itself through the efforts of
15 the authorities in the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna with the
16 existence of Croatia
17 Number 2, we've heard that Croatia, the Republic of Croatia
18 sending arms that are going directly into the hands of the ABiH. This is
19 rather critical, and of course this gentleman hasn't spoken about it, but
20 it is -- it's a known -- it was not much of a secret that there were
21 flights coming in from Croatia
22 the blessings of the United States, even though it was in contravention
23 of the arms embargo, and to that extent we heard some testimony that came
24 in from Ambassador Albright, but arms were coming in from Iran or
25 financed by Iran
1 this joint criminal enterprise. How is it, in the international armed
2 conflict, how is it --
3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Aren't you starting now to plead on the merits?
4 MR. KARNAVAS: No, I'm not.
5 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Yes, I think you are.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: What I'm trying to suggest, Your Honours, what I'm
7 trying to suggest is this line of questioning, that supposedly is
8 relevance, is irrelevant; and therefore if we're going to be saving some
9 time, the best thing to do is to ask Madam Prosecutor to move on. That's
10 my point. I'm not trying to plead.
11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: That's a point you can make, definitely.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: I've just made it, and again my apologies if I
13 overextended in my explanation, but I like to be full.
14 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd just like to
15 respond to what my learned friend just said.
16 I think that this is a simplification of matters, but important
17 for the Defence, because the Prosecutor says he's not challenging the
18 fact that the BH Army cooperated, and the HVO, in the Posavina area.
19 We've just seen that. All I want to say is that the witness, just not to
20 misunderstand me, the witness hasn't come here or didn't come here at the
21 invitation of the Stojic Defence to speak about Posavina; he just spoke
22 about the weapons which came through that area to the 2nd Corps. The
23 witness is talking about the 2nd Corps, the broader Tuzla region which
24 was covered by the 2nd Corps.
25 And let me repeat, we had a witness speaking about the BH Army --
1 the cooperation between the BH Army and the HVO in Posavina and also in
3 cooperation in a third region, and not only about that
4 cooperation/collaboration, but the fact that the units, and this is a big
5 difference -- the first witness from Posavina said that there were just
6 HVO brigades. The witness from Sarajevo
7 brigades, the HVO and the BH Army, and this witness is saying that the
8 HVO brigades were directly subordinated to the BH Army. So we have three
9 witnesses there --
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, the Trial Chamber
11 would like you to stop, because what's said by various people here serves
12 no purpose.
13 I don't know what Mr. Scott wishes to say, but I have the feeling
14 that I'm wasting my time entirely.
15 Mr. Scott.
16 MR. SCOTT: Well, sorry, Your Honour, if it's wasting time. The
17 Prosecution deserves to get a fair response to the Defence points raised,
18 and if the Chamber wants to cut off the Defence, they can do so.
19 The Prosecution is repeatedly --
20 MR. KHAN: Your Honour --
21 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Counsel.
22 What the Prosecution has repeated said was we've raised this
23 several times, and Ms. West is completely right, there's been a
24 presentation of at least three witnesses on this area, the Posavina and
25 this far north-east corner of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The Prosecution has
1 indicated to you that we view this, this evidence, as completely or at
2 least largely highly irrelevant. We said that to you yesterday. It's
3 never been disputed. The Chamber didn't cut it off, the Chamber didn't
4 preclude it. If the Chamber wants to save time, it might preclude
5 irrelevant areas of inquiry. Having not precluded it, having not
6 precluded it, then it's only fair for the Prosecution to have the
7 opportunity that it not be mischaracterised. If it's going to be
8 introduced, then it better be introduced accurately.
9 And I'll go further than Ms. West. It is disingenuous for this
10 witness to sit here, based on everything he's told us, and pretend that
11 he doesn't know the importance of a military corridor of which supplies
12 went into North-West Bosnia
13 disingenuous, and I'm sorry, but that's exactly what it is, for him to
14 sit here and tell us that in light of his expertise and other things he's
15 said, and he was brought here under false pretences in terms of the
16 summary that was provided. There wasn't one word in the summary about
17 politics, about Soli, about Herceg-Bosna, completely. It was under
18 completely false pretences that those subjects were intervened, and --
19 MR KHAN: Mr. President --
20 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me. I'm not finished, Counsel. I'm not
21 finished, Counsel.
22 So for counsel to introduce these issues and then have the
23 gall -- the gall to stand up and object to Ms. West's cross-examination
24 which is entirely appropriate, is completely beyond the pale.
25 MR. KHAN: Mr. President, it seems rather unfortunate that my
1 learned friend was stopped -- my learned leader Ms. Nozica was stopped
2 whilst she was on her feet and she was addressing the Court, because,
3 Mr. President, quite rightly you said that perhaps this is going nowhere
4 and is a waste of the Court's time. But in compliance with that, she sat
5 down, and my learned friend Mr. Scott, who had been standing throughout
6 much of her submission, was given the chance to carry on.
7 For the record, I am rather incredulous at the amount of
8 invective that this courtroom seems to constantly generate. It is
9 something that is normally rather -- one disassociates from the
10 traditions of the Bar, in which the facts are supposed to speak volumes,
11 not the invective or the passions of counsel who are seeking to represent
12 either the Prosecution or the Defence.
13 But to assert, while the witness is in the box -- in effect to
14 give a closing speech to castigate the integrity not only of the witness
15 in the box but also of the Defence team that has brought him here, to say
16 that he's been brought under false pretences, is not only insulting and
17 unnecessary, it is not in the highest traditions of the criminal bar as
18 far as I have experienced it.
19 Your Honour, the other matter, for the record. At one point or
20 the other, Your Honours have to police this courtroom and prevent
21 counsel -- all sides, all of us commit excesses, I agree, but must make
22 counsel tow the line, rather than giving vent to rhetoric which is not
23 based in reality.
24 My learned friend, at page 50, line 2 and 3, pleads again that
25 the Prosecution deserves a fair response. Well, let's actually hear. My
1 learned friend, who is taking this witness, is a very experienced
2 prosecutor. She was given a chance to respond to the objection that was
3 raised, and she gave a very detailed response to Your Honours. So,
4 Your Honours, for Mr. Scott then to stand up and say that the Prosecution
5 deserves a fair response, well, it's not normal. Normally, there is an
6 objection and a response and a decision. And in this case, my learned
7 friend was given a full opportunity to respond before the senior trial
8 attorney, Mr. Scott, took the floor. So to pretend and say on the
9 record, in a mish-mash of other invective against a Defence team and the
10 witness on the stand and under oath, is simply not based in reality, and
11 I would ask Your Honours to call counsel to account and ask counsel on
12 all sides to try to reduce the heat that this courtroom generates and
13 focus on issues that are in dispute.
14 Your Honours, my learned friend Ms. Nozica outlined an objection
15 at the outset that this area was not -- did not arise from
16 examination-in-chief, and I would ask ordinarily the cross-examining
17 party seeks to impugn the evidence that has been called in chief. Now,
18 of course, the Rules do allow for relevant evidence to be elicited from a
19 witness even if areas were not covered in chief. Your Honours, the
20 objection was this area is not relevant from this particular witness, for
21 the reasons that have been gone into regarding his expertise and his
22 knowledge of the questions that my learned friend is seeking to elicit
23 from him.
24 Your Honours, I do object to the tone of my learned friend's
25 objection, Mr. Scott's objection, and the way he's characterized the
1 Defence conduct. It is simply is not justified and it was unnecessary.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's try and calm things down.
3 Witness, you were talking about the Posavina, and if you look at
4 map 10068, you can look at the map on the screen, P10068, we can see
5 where it's Tuzla
6 wasted 20 minutes of my time trying to listen to everyone; so I would
7 like to focus on the documents and on what a witness is testifying, a
8 witness who had a responsible position within this 2nd Corps.
9 Witness, if you needed supplies sent to the Posavina, given the
10 borders, did they have to go via Grude or Tuzla, or could they not
11 receive weapons directly from Croatia
12 border with Croatia
13 would be the purpose of that, to go through you, in order to help the
14 Posavina-based units, given that they are near the border with Croatia
15 Do you have an explanation to that or don't you have any?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I'll
17 be very concrete in answering your very concrete question, with every
18 respect for the Prosecutor, Madam Kimberley West, who asked her questions
19 with high responsibility, but not with precision perhaps, as far as I'm
20 concerned. And I don't wish -- but I must say that I don't wish to
21 communicate with Mr. Scott anymore, because I take offence at his
23 Now, to answer your question --
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please, do not be offended.
25 I'm asking you a technical question, so please answer to my question,
1 which is of a technical nature.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Because, Witness, these are the
4 Judges that are going to rule, and it's not because one of the parties at
5 a trial intervenes that you can take this for granted for under
6 sentencing. So please disregard what has been said by one or the other
7 and please answer my question.
8 Do you think that it was necessary, in order to help the
9 Posavina, to go through a logistical support that was rather complex with
10 MTS transiting via Grude and with all the transport issues that we've
11 heard, whereas I can see that there is a very close border to Croatia
12 it seems that nothing stops the Croat Army to provide the weapons
13 directly to the Croat units that were based there? So since you were on
14 the ground, what is your take on this?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The units that you're referring to,
16 Your Honour, did receive their MTS in that way. That was never in
17 question. And from that area, and yesterday we saw this on the basis of
18 documents, we did receive certain material from there, so I don't see how
19 that is contentious at all. We discussed that yesterday, and I think I
20 explained it sufficiently. If need be, I can explain it again in greater
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And the question of
23 the corridor: According to you, was it of a strategic nature or was
24 there no military point to having this corridor?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Judge Antonetti, it
1 wasn't -- why wasn't it that important? Because it was only part of the
2 territory where we went into combat. If we're talking about a supplies
3 corridor, then the most important corridor was the one towards the south
4 or, rather, towards the area which we explained yesterday, the HVO in
5 Herceg-Bosna, because we received our supplies from that area mostly, and
6 I explained this yesterday. And that is why it was important for us.
7 And I don't know if time allows me to go into an explanation, but that
8 route was important to us, and we had that route, but it was highly
9 sensitive, in military terms, and we had to maintain it.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] From a military point of view,
11 you are a military man, but there will be other witnesses of a military
12 background and we can come back to this question: The municipalities of
13 the Posavina that we can see on the map, they are in blue, which is on
14 the top corner of the map. In order to defend themselves, did they
15 really need the logistical support of the HVO, or perhaps even from the
16 HVO and the ABiH, against the Serbs or were they in a position to fight
17 or fend for themselves, given that they were very close to Croatia
19 Were they in a position to defend themselves without getting any supply
20 from the HVO or from the HVO and the ABiH? So, in other words, were they
21 self-sufficient enough?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you're referring to the part of
23 Posavina on the map - we can have a look at it - Odzak, Orasje, that
24 area, the northern part along the Sava River, that's what we're referring
25 to, not the part under the territory of the 2nd Corps. They could have
1 got their supplies that way, if that's what -- the territory you're
2 referring to.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And the part of the
4 Posavina which was under the auspices of the 2nd Corps, did they need you
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon, but I don't
7 understand. Who needed me, who needed us, the territory that we were
8 referring to or what?
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] According to the map, you can
10 see that in the Posavina --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- you have an ethnic make-up
13 which shows that it's -- the majority of Croats is in the north, and then
14 you have mixed ethnicity; there are Serbs and there are some areas where
15 you have Muslims as well. I can assume that the Croats in the lower
16 parts of the map are in the minorities. We know that the 2nd Corps, of
17 which you were a part, was active very close to the Posavina border, so
18 my question is whether your action was there to protect the few Croats
19 that were in those areas or whether there was another purpose.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honours, we had a
21 clear goal. I spoke about it yesterday, but I will repeat.
22 The Command of the 2nd Corps and the 2nd Corps fully embraced the
23 political decision issued by the Presidency, which was the platform for
24 the defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Throughout the war, we fought to
25 defend the people on the territory for which the 2nd Corps was
1 responsible, and we did not even think about who was of what ethnicity
2 because that would have been contrary to the platform issued by the
3 Presidency, which was our political leadership and to our personal
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
6 Ms. West, you have the floor. Perhaps my questions have sort of
7 quietened down the room.
8 Yes, General Petkovic.
9 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, good
11 I beg to ask you to put a technical question to the witness. Did
12 the 2nd Corps border on the Operative Zone of Bosnian Posavina in one
13 part or was the Army of Republika Srpska separating the two and there
14 were no points where they touched? So did the 2nd Corps border on the
15 operative zone or was the Republika Srpska Army between them? And,
16 secondly, was his corps, the northern border of it was in Bosnian
17 Posavina, so was it defending the Bosnian Posavina? And that is a
18 technical question which we keep moving around.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Petkovic, yes, indeed
20 this is a question that I could have asked, but it didn't come to mind.
21 So my question is the following: I was wondering whether the
22 area of activity of the 2nd Corps was bordering the Posavina, whether
23 it's the northern part or the southern part, or was there the
24 Republika Srpska that was in between, through its paramilitary units? So
25 this is a purely technical question, and I'm sure you can answer this
1 type of question.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I'm
3 willing to respond to specific and clear questions.
4 Between these two territories, the Operative Zone of Bosnian
5 Posavina, which was right next to the Sava River, and the zone of the
6 2nd Corps, were physically linked in the beginning of the war, and I
7 personally passed through there. Later on, we were partly physically cut
8 off, and in some periods of the war we managed to have links, but most of
9 the time we were not able to. However, in military terms, we had
10 constant communications, in that they supported us with artillery, at our
11 request, as if they had been part of our units.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
13 When you say "in the second part," or "at a second stage," so
14 from which point in time did you no longer have direct contact with the
15 troops based in the Posavina area? You said at the beginning you had
16 direct contact, and then you said, We no longer had it. So what is the
17 exact date line?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't be precise
19 about the date because this fluctuated, it changed from day to day, but
20 towards the end of 1992, sometime in October or November, this -- we were
21 cut off from each other.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. If I understand
23 correctly, and it was a follow-up -- it's a follow-up to the question
24 from General Petkovic, you said there were links, it was through
25 artillery support, which means that you were shelling some positions in
1 order to find a way for units to go through in order to have some sort of
2 a link? I don't know, I wasn't there, but I'm sure that you are in a
3 much better position to tell me.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, precisely so.
5 Throughout all that time, we received artillery support from the north,
6 and we also had jointly-planned combat activities where they were active
7 from the north side and we from the south side, and at a certain point in
8 time we joined up again.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when did you join up,
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't be precise about the date,
12 and this was interrupted again. It didn't last long. So when we joined
13 up physically, it didn't last long. We were cut off again after that.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question, because we
15 could spend hours on this. A technical type of question. The 2nd Corps,
16 which is under the ABiH, what was its strategic interest to lend a hand
17 through the Posavina area? My question may be of a political nature. If
18 you are not in a position to answer, don't answer.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the area of Bosnian
20 Posavina, in military terms, was covered by the brigades as follows: The
21 103rd, 4th, 6th or, rather, several brigades which were up there of the
22 HVO, and as part of the 2nd Corps there was brigades of the HVO and the
23 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
24 In military terms, our goal was to join up physically. That was
25 our strategic goal. Our operative goal in that period in 1992 and 1993
1 was to defend all the territory we held because at that time the enemy
2 forces were technically superior and there was nothing else we could do.
3 Later on, our strategic goal was to join up these territories, when we
4 went on the offensive in the area of Gradacac, and especially in the area
5 of Brcko. Gradually, we took the strategic initiative and took parts of
6 the territory. Had the war not ended, we would probably have managed to
7 link up those territories.
8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise. Just an intervention.
9 In the text, the witness said, on page 59 and 60, lines 25 and 1, the
10 witness started enumerating brigades and he said "also in the 2nd Corps
11 there were brigades." He didn't say "of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina."
12 He said "of the HVO."
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see that. It hasn't been
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Praljak, please sit
16 down, unless there is something different from Ms. Nozica. Oh, please go
17 if that's the reason you stood up.
18 JUDGE PRANDLER: I would like to suggest that we give the floor
19 back to the Prosecution and continue with the cross-examination. It is
20 really now becoming more and more in a way, beyond our control.
21 Thank you.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, you have the floor.
23 MS. WEST: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 Q. Sir, you've just indicated that in this particular area, you were
25 partially -- I think you said partially physically cut off. You would
1 agree with me that you were partially physically cut off by the Serbs;
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And during those times when you were cut off, the Serbs
5 controlled that particular area; correct?
6 A. No, that's not correct.
7 Q. Okay. So when you were cut off and there was the absence of the
8 ABiH and the absence of the HVO and the absence of the HV, what was left
9 were Serb forces; right?
10 A. Well, it's not correct, because in military terms, and I can only
11 give you a military response, you can't speak of controlling a territory
12 if you cannot keep it by military means, and we had such artillery and
13 other power that they were not able to control that territory. They
14 passed through, but only at great risk to themselves.
15 Q. Exactly. Mr. Witness, the Serbs were able to pass through; isn't
16 that right?
17 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.
18 Q. And when they passed through, they carried supplies with them,
19 did they not?
20 A. It was mostly their military units attempting to pass through,
21 which we stopped by artillery. Sometimes they managed to get through.
22 Q. Thank you. So sometimes they managed to get through.
23 And we're going to go back to P10894, and this is the article we
24 were looking at earlier, and I think we got about halfway. And let's
25 start from -- it's 10894.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. "The 220-mile-long corridor runs from Knin, Croatia
3 top of Bosnia
4 Brcko, in northern Bosnia
5 has been the scene of heavy fighting throughout the war.
6 "The patchwork of territory seized in a year of war gives the
7 Serbs no other way to keep arms, fuel, food, and other goods flowing
8 through much of Bosnia
9 Serb-controlled Croatia.
10 "The nearly bare shots along King Peter the Liberator Street
11 Knin reveals shoes, clothing, household products and many other supplies
12 from Serbia
13 to the Serbs in Knin but they fall short of demand. It is widely
14 believed that the vital fuel and military supplies are also shipped to
15 Knin along that route. Buses from Knin regularly travel along the narrow
16 corridor to reach Belgrade
17 in Knin have to the outside world."
18 Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that the corridor that ran
19 through this area that we have been talking about this afternoon was a
20 corridor that the Serbs used to send supplies from Serbia in the east to
21 the area they controlled in Western Bosnia and Herzegovina and the
23 A. If you say so, I have to agree with you. I don't know that for
25 Q. Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that part of the reason that
1 the ABiH was so concerned about this corridor was that the ABiH did not
2 want the Serbs to have the ability to supply their troops in
3 Western Bosnia-Herzegovina?
4 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, the aim of the 2nd Corps was to
5 prevent passage through this corridor, as the Prosecutor calls it, of
6 military equipment and weapons for the Serbs. That was the only supplies
7 this referred to. I am saying this because we did not target buses, if
8 we saw them, whereas one of our buses, carrying our civilians, was hit in
9 another area.
10 Q. Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that part of the reason that
12 want to see the Serbs have the ability to supply itself in
13 Western Bosnia-Herzegovina and in the Krajina?
14 A. When Madam Prosecutor refers to the Krajina, does she mean the
15 Krajina in Croatia
16 Q. I do.
17 A. I don't think that's correct. The Krajina in Croatia, there were
18 also Croat citizens there, and I don't think the Croatian authorities
19 would be concerned about clothes or food reaching them, but certainly if
20 this refers to weapons, then yes.
21 Q. So it's your testimony that Croatia would be concerned about the
22 Serbs supplying itself with military weapons in the Krajina through this
24 A. Of course. The USA
25 of weapons to the USA
1 defends its own.
2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wish to assist. I
3 think there will soon be a misunderstanding.
4 I only wish to draw attention to the following: In the territory
5 of Yugoslavia
6 referred to as the Krajina, colloquially, and they cover several
7 territories. I don't want to testify, so I won't go into it any further.
8 So the Prosecutor always has to specify what Krajina, the Eastern Krajina
9 of the Serbs in Croatia
10 Serbian autonomous provinces which were also referred to as the Krajina
11 in this part of Bosnia
12 misunderstanding. The witness specifically referred to a specific
13 Krajina, but it's the wrong Krajina.
14 However, I just wanted to prevent our wasting time.
15 MS. WEST: Thank you, sir.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, the questions that
17 you have raised were very relevant and of high interest to us, but it
18 would have been advisable as well, given that you touched upon the
19 Krajina, that we have a map where we can see the Serbian Krajina in
21 Posavina, because we can see what is at stake here, and the 2nd Corps was
22 blocking supply of the Serbs through this infamous corridor through zone
23 number 2. That we can see on the map. But I had another question,
25 I was wondering whether this supply could not go through the
1 Croatian Krajina, namely, through the top, in order to arrive at the
2 level of zone 2, the northern part of zone 2, without going through this
3 corridor. But given that we do not have the map, it's difficult to
4 really make sense.
5 MS. WEST: Your Honour, I didn't want to interrupt you, but the
6 next exhibit is a map, if we can go to P10901. I think it will come up
7 on the screen in front of you.
8 Q. Okay. So we can get our bearings, can you see Slavonski Brod,
9 which is -- do you recognise Slavonski Brod?
10 A. Yes, I can see it.
11 Q. And so that's the area, if you can go straight up from the word
14 A. I didn't understand. What area are you referring to,
15 Slavonski Brod?
16 Q. Let me ask another question. Just south of Slavonski Brod,
17 although we can't see it, is that the area of the Posavina?
18 A. No.
19 Q. All right. So where on this map would be the Posavina in Bosnia
20 and Herzegovina
21 A. Please follow what I'm saying. From the border with Serbia
22 along the entire length of the River Sava, Zupanja, Slavonski Brod,
23 Nova Gradiska, and further on, all that is the Posavina, not south of
24 Slavonski Brod, but all of that is Posavina, geographically. I think the
25 problem here is in terminology. We are not on the same wavelength when
1 we are talking about the Posavina area.
2 Q. Okay. Let's talk about the Krajina. The Serbian -- I'm speaking
3 specifically about the Serbian Krajina in the area of Croatia. So you
4 see there's an area that's outlined in red, and there are two areas, in
5 fact, but I'm looking at the one on the left. Mr. Witness, do you see
6 that area outlined in red on the left side of the map?
7 A. Yes, yes. Yes, I'm looking at it.
8 Q. And would you agree with me, for all intents and purposes, that
9 that is considered the Serbian Krajina or the Serbian part of the -- the
10 Krajina that they controlled for a period of time in Croatia?
11 A. I don't agree with that.
12 Q. Okay. Do you see the town or the municipality Knin at the bottom
13 of it, in the southern part of this red outlined area?
14 A. Yes, I see it. I see it, yes.
15 Q. And you remember the article that we just read was based out of
16 Knin; right?
17 A. Yes, we read a part of that article.
18 Q. And that was a Serbian-controlled area; correct?
19 A. Conditionally speaking, yes, I agree.
20 Q. Okay. So to get -- if you were to try to move supplies from
22 across the northern Bosnia-Herzegovina, you would be going through the
23 Posavina; right?
24 You have to answer verbally, you have to answer out loud.
25 A. I would never do that, as a soldier.
1 Q. Okay. That's not my question. During 1992 and 1993, when you
2 spoke about the Serbs moving supplies, or equipment, or whatever you want
3 to call it they were moving, they were coming from Serbia, in the east,
4 and they were going through the Posavina; correct?
5 Mr. Makar, you have to answer verbally.
6 A. In part, that's correct, what they managed to get through, yes.
7 Q. All right. So with what they ended up getting through, if they
8 had continued to go west, they would have ended up in the Serbian
9 Krajina; is that right?
10 A. Well, had there not been a war, yes, that would have been
11 correct, but in wartime very often they didn't get there.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Praljak, what would you
13 like to tell us?
14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there is not
15 something called the Serbian Krajina. There is the military Krajina
16 established by the Austro-Hungarian empire as a belt defending it from
17 the Ottomans who were trying to reach from Vienna. It was called the
18 military Krajina, it was always called that. Never was it called the
19 Serbian Krajina. It was occupied territory of the Republic of Croatia
20 So at this Court, we have to respect something that is respected by all
21 legal norms. It was an occupied part of the Republic of Croatia
22 to as the Krajina because it used to be called the military Krajina or
23 the military border belt.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. Your point has been
1 Ms. West, I believe that through your questions, you're trying to
2 establish that in order to supply Knin, the Serbs had to go through
3 Posavina. So, Mr. Witness, the question put by Ms. West is technically
4 absolutely right, so what is your answer? When you look at this map --
5 just look at the map. So what is your answer? Is it true, is it wrong,
6 was it possible, impossible?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In military terms, I think it's not
8 correct. The reason they persistently tried to go there was not because
9 they were stupid. We had the same situation in Bihac and in Srebrenica.
10 We even sent supplies by helicopter. The map itself shows that, in
11 military terms, that was easily possible. You could fly over fast by
12 helicopter from one Krajina on the east of Croatia to the other Krajina
13 and they would already be there. We did that and flew over enemy
14 territory. It would have been much easier for them, had they done that.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right, all right. Please
16 proceed, Ms. West.
17 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I think it is important to correct the
18 transcript. I don't know whether my colleague noticed. The witness
19 said -- I will put it in Croatia
20 [Interpretation] Page 68, line 11, the witness said, as I
21 understood it in Croatia
22 because they were stupid. It says "because they were not stupid." They
23 were not stupid, but the "not" is superfluous here.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine, fine.
25 Ms. West.
1 MS. WEST: Thank you.
2 Q. Earlier, the President asked you about supply routes to the ABiH,
3 and you had indicated that the most important supply corridor came from
4 the south. If we can go back to P10068, the other map of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, I'd like to go over that route with you. It's
6 P10068, map 39.
7 You've testified -- you testified -- you testified on direct that
8 a number of supplies came from the Grude Logistics Base. Do you remember
9 that testimony?
10 A. Yes, I said that; not a number of supplies, but a lot of
11 supplies, a lot of the MTS that we received.
12 Q. Good enough. Now, Grude is on the map -- if we see the number 8
13 and go west a little bit, is that the Grude where the logistics base is?
14 That's Grude; correct?
15 A. Yes, I can see that.
16 Q. Okay. To get from Grude with these supplies to where you were --
17 or, rather, did these supplies go to Tuzla or did they go to various
18 places under the command of the 2nd Corps?
19 A. It couldn't have been sent to other places if it came to the
20 2nd Corps zone. There was only one place where they could enter, both
21 people and MTS, and we had control of that area, there was a check-point.
22 So it could only have arrived to the 2nd Corps; and if there was supplies
23 for the civilians, food and other things, then they would come to the
25 Q. Where was the check-point?
1 A. Roughly, on the southern border of the 2nd Corps zone, at the
2 entrance. And I marked a it in on the previous map, the 2nd Corps zone,
3 so I can't be precise, looking at this map here. But, anyway, on the
4 southern borders of the 2nd Corps zone.
5 Q. Okay. Can you describe for the Chamber the route or the
6 convoy -- or the material would take when going from Grude to the
7 southern border that you talk about?
8 A. Yes, that's right.
9 Q. Can you tell us, what was the route?
10 A. Ah, I see, what route.
11 Q. You can even use the pen and mark it on this map, and we'll ask
12 for another IC number.
13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks] Well, that's it, roughly.
15 It's not a very precise map.
16 MS. WEST: Your Honour, the difficulty with the accused speaking
17 in B/C/S while this witness is testifying is that, clearly, the
18 Prosecutors do not know what he's saying, so I would ask Mr. Praljak to
19 repeat what he said so it can be translated.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, please don't speak
21 up. I understand that you are objecting because of this map. Maybe I'm
23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honours, I've
24 provided at least ten good maps, military, geographic or whatever. I've
25 given them to the Prosecutor. So why have a bad ethnic map to determine
1 a route? I think that the Prosecution should have the seriousness to
2 provide proper maps, good maps.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. Well, Ms. West,
4 yes, indeed, we had a whole series of maps, so it might have been more
5 helpful to have some maps with the various routes. But all right, all
6 right, okay, you don't have it, so please ask him to indicate which is
7 the route that was followed.
8 MS. WEST:
9 Q. So, sir, you have put a green line on this map, and it looks
10 like -- where exactly did you start that green line, in what
12 A. Well, it's very difficult, as Mr. Praljak said, did mark it on
13 this map of municipalities, because it's not a road map. I'd be able to
14 show it better on a road map, but it went from the logistics base at
15 Grude. I can't be precise in marking that exact point. But, anyway, it
16 went from the logistics base in Grude, and I've started it where it says
17 "Grude," but that's highly imprecise.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, based on a map of
20 either through [indiscernible], Bihac, Kacin [phoen], Olovo and Tuzla
21 through Jablanica, Prozor, Bugojno, Travnik, Zenica, Maglaj, Doboj. So
22 which was the most practical route?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I took a route with the last convoy
24 that I led. I went Grude, Jablanica, Prozor, Gornji Vakuf -- just a
25 moment -- Visoko, Breza, and entered the corps's zone using that route,
1 that direction.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is this by small roads or wide,
3 main roads?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, during the war, for
5 bringing in the MTS we used routes which were good roads, in part, mostly
6 in the first part of the route, that is to say, from Grude to 'round
7 about, well, up to Kresevo, roughly speaking; but we also had roads that
8 we had to make ourselves, our own routes through forests. We used forest
9 routes for transport, turning them into roads for transport, and we had
10 great difficulties in the Olovo region. And, of course, if I had a
11 better map, I'd be able to explain it better. Where it says "Olovo," if
12 you could focus on that area, in that area we had to build a whole new
13 road right up to, roughly speaking, the Kladanj municipality. So in
14 general terms, we can say that the first stage of the route was good,
15 good roads, whereas afterwards the roads were bad and some of the routes
16 from Olovo to Kladanj were under constant fire from the enemy forces,
17 artillery and all the rest of it.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, Ms. West, you wanted him
19 to draw this route. I suppose you're trying to make a point.
20 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President. I think he's adequately
21 answered it. Thank you.
22 I think we're having the break soon, but if I can just have one
23 more question.
24 Q. Mr. Makar, you have indicated that the end of 1992, I think you
25 said into the beginning of January of 1993, that's when you were on the
1 front-lines in the Posavina. Is that right, was that your testimony?
2 A. Your Honours, I was there precisely as the Prosecutor just said,
3 at the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993.
4 Q. And while there, did you fight alongside HVO soldiers?
5 A. Very often.
6 Q. Did you also fight alongside HV soldiers?
7 A. There were no members of the Croatian Army in the 2nd Corps,
8 except for individual cases.
9 Q. So putting aside HV soldiers in the 2nd Corps, were there HV
10 soldiers in the area fighting as well?
11 A. I can clarify this, and we discussed it, I think, towards the end
12 of the previous hour. Dr. Hudolin was sent from the Croatian Army, so he
13 was there, and I could give you other individuals. There was
14 Mr. Turkovic, Ivan Turkovic, and he lives in Croatia, in Novska now.
15 Q. That's not my question. Let's focus on this question and you can
16 answer it, if you can. Did the Croatian -- did Croatia also send
17 soldiers to this area to fight the Serbs?
18 A. No, the Croatian Army was not -- never sent soldiers to the 2nd
19 Corps area. Members of the Croatian Army, you mean. I think I
20 understood you correctly; right?
21 Q. You did. Let me ask you another question, a follow-up. Putting
22 aside the 2nd Corps area, you spoke earlier about the northern side of
23 the Posavina, and on the map we can't see it here, but those would be
24 those municipalities that were blue, and right north of that was Croatia
25 Did Croatia
1 north to help in this area?
2 A. I'm sorry, but I don't understand the question. Why would
4 no HVO soldiers in Croatia
5 Q. That may have been my mistake. Did Croatia send HV soldiers,
6 Croatian soldiers, to the area from the north?
7 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, I can say with great reliability
8 that Croatia
9 "the Croatian Army" to the 2nd Corps. Now, I don't know about other
11 Q. Okay. So you're telling us, in regard to other areas, you don't
12 know whether Croatia
13 to the 2nd Corps; correct?
14 A. Yes, precisely.
15 MS. WEST: This might be a good time for a break.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. We're going to take
17 a ten-minute break -- 20, sorry.
18 --- Recess taken at 5.52 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 6.16 p.m.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right, Ms. West.
21 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. Mr. Makar, yesterday you testified in regard to the command of
23 the HVO units in the 2nd Corps, and your testimony was, and I quote:
24 "The HVO units acted under the command of the 2nd Corps."
25 And you said:
1 "Let me clarify. These units were in the chain of command in all
2 operative and combat issues and combat activities. As regards logistics,
3 organisation and the establishment of those units, the appointment of
4 officers to those units, that were under the command of the Main Staff of
5 the HVO."
6 Do you remember that testimony?
7 A. Yes, I do remember.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, since we still have
9 the map on the screen, would you like to have an IC number? I don't
10 think we did this before the break. So, Mr. Registrar.
11 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The second marked version of
13 P10068 shall be given Exhibit IC965. Thank you, Your Honours.
14 MS. WEST: Thank you.
15 Q. So, sir, do you remember that testimony?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Okay. And so that means that the HVO units and the
18 ABiH 2nd Corps took their operative orders from the ABiH Command? In
19 other words, sometimes they took them from you; correct?
20 A. No, that's not correct.
21 Q. Okay. When it came to logistics and administrative issues, is it
22 your testimony that they took orders from the HVO Main Staff in Mostar?
23 A. Your Honour, I don't know whether I said that, but in the
24 previous quotation mention is made that those units received orders from
25 the BH Army, and I said yesterday that they received orders from the
1 Command of the 2nd Corps. And the Prosecutor asked me whether they
2 received orders from me. Well, not from me, because I wasn't the corps
3 commander but the Chief of Staff. So that's the correction I wanted to
5 Q. What was the time-period in which this model was used? Give us a
7 A. From 1992 to 1994, throughout the war.
8 Q. All right, Mr. Makar --
9 A. And after the war, the organisation remained the same, roughly.
10 Q. Sir, let's compare the relationship between the HVO and the ABiH
11 in the 2nd Corps with the relationship between the ABiH and the HVO in
12 Herceg-Bosna. Now, you testified yesterday that you travelled to
13 Herceg-Bosna three times in early 1993; correct?
14 A. That's right, Your Honours.
15 Q. And the first time was, I believe, the end of February. The
16 second time was the end of March. The third time was the very beginning
17 of May; is that right?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. And while there, did you have contact with your counterparts in
20 the ABiH?
21 A. Madam Prosecutor, I don't understand when you use the term
22 "counterpart in the BH Army." Could you rephrase your question?
23 Q. While you were there, did you talk to anybody in the BH Army in,
24 say, Mostar?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. Okay. And with whom did you talk?
2 A. With the commander and officers of the 4th Corps who was in
4 Q. Did you have those conversations on only one occasion of those
5 three trips or all three trips?
6 A. Not just once. It was certainly twice, maybe three times. I'm
7 not quite sure.
8 Q. Now, the model that you used in the 2nd Corps, and when I say
9 "model," I mean that the HVO was subordinate to the ABiH for operational
10 matters, but went to the Main Staff for logistic matters; did you
11 understand that was something that was being used in Herceg-Bosna as
13 A. I'll answer the question, but I'd like to correct something once
14 again. The HVO was not subordinate to the BH Army but to the 2nd corps
15 command, and now I'm talking about the 2nd corps command. Now, in
16 answer -- to answer your question, as for relations between the BH Army
17 and the Croatian Defence Council in Mostar, I cannot make an assessment
18 or give an evaluation of that because I spent too short a time down
19 there. But if you want to hear my answer, those weren't the kind of
20 relations they had.
21 Q. Can you tell us what type of relationships they had?
22 A. Well, the 4th Corps was under the command of the BH Army. That's
23 quite clear. And the units of the HVO were under the command of the
24 Main Staff. So it wasn't like it was on our territory.
25 Q. And so you would agree with me that on the situation in
1 Herceg-Bosna in 19 -- end of 1992 and throughout 1993 was quite different
2 than the situation for the 2nd Corps at the end of 1992 and 1993?
3 A. Your Honours, I'd like that question to be clarified. What
4 situation do you have in mind, the military situation or what? I'm not
5 sure I understand your question.
6 Q. Thank you, sir. I will clarify that. In 1993, did you
7 understand that there were tensions between the HVO and the ABiH?
8 A. Well, in the sense of your question, the answer would be "no."
9 But if you want to rephrase that, I'll do my best to answer.
10 Q. No. Let me ask you another question: In 1993, were there
11 tensions between the HVO, under the 2nd corps command, and the ABiH?
12 A. Well, this isn't a very precise question either, but I think my
13 answer is "no." No, there weren't.
14 Q. So can you describe, to the extent that you know, from about the
15 middle of 1993, what the relationship was like between the HVO and the
16 ABiH in Herceg-Bosna?
17 A. I certainly can't explain those relations. At the time that I
18 was there, there were talks that didn't last very long, and I didn't even
19 go outside Mostar, beyond Mostar; so I wasn't able to size up the
20 situation for me to make an evaluation about the relations between the
21 HVO and the BH Army in Herceg-Bosna. It's a vast territory. I couldn't
22 view it all.
23 Q. Mr. Makar, were you aware that in the middle of January, ABiH
24 troops in Herceg-Bosna were ordered subordinated to the HVO Command?
25 A. Your Honours, I did know something similar, but I wouldn't say
1 that it was in the way this question was formulated. I think it was a
2 political decision rather than a military one, whereas it was formulated
3 as a military one here.
4 Q. Okay. So you just said that you did -- you did know something
5 similar. Tell us what you knew.
6 A. I'll try and give a free interpretation of that. There was a
7 political agreement, I can't tell you exactly what because it wasn't the
8 subject of my research, whereby in parts -- in the parts where -- perhaps
9 I'm not going to be too precise. Well, I wouldn't like to speculate, to
10 be honest, but I think it was a political decision, not a military
12 Q. Okay. It was nonetheless a political decision that affected the
13 military, though; correct?
14 A. Every political decision in the 2nd Corps area and the Tuzla
15 had an affect on the 2nd Corps activities. I can't speak about the other
16 territories because I can't be certain.
17 Q. Were you aware -- you were again in Herceg-Bosna end of March and
18 beginning of May. Were you aware that in April another similar ultimatum
19 was issued for the subordination of the ABiH to the HVO by April 15th?
20 Were you aware of that?
21 A. No, I didn't know that there was any ultimatum, but the situation
22 was tense, that's true.
23 Q. When you say the situation was tense, what do you mean by that?
24 How do you know the situation was tense?
25 A. Well, in talking to the Main Staff of the Croatian Army, I saw
1 that there were problems in relations with the 4th Corps at a local
3 Q. Mr. Makar, would you agree with me that there were periods of
4 time in Bosnia-Herzegovina when Muslims and Croats cooperated together
5 and fought against a common enemy? In this case, it would be the Serbs.
6 A. I would agree only with your assessment or with the assessment
7 that that happened throughout the war.
8 Q. And it's fair to say that in the Posavina, the Croats and Muslims
9 together had a common enemy, and that was the Serbs; right?
10 A. No, that's not right. There were other areas of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Well, in the majority of Bosnia and Herzegovina
12 there weren't conflicts. It was just in the smaller parts.
13 Q. So my question was: In Posavina, they cooperated together;
15 A. Who, who cooperated? I apologise. What do you mean "they
16 cooperated together"? Who, who is "they"?
17 Q. We're speaking about the Croats and the Muslims, or we can even
18 say the HVO and the ABiH cooperated together in the Posavina. Would you
19 agree with me ?
20 A. Well, I answered that a moment ago; not only in Posavina, but it
21 was in Bihac, Sarajevo
22 Posavina, certainly I agree. I have nothing against that.
23 Q. All right. But you also said that there were areas where they
24 did not cooperate; right?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. All right. Let's talk about one of those areas.
2 Now, you mentioned -- yesterday, you mentioned that Zepce was
3 part of the 2nd Corps, and today, when you looked at the map, you also
4 put an X over three areas, one of them being Zepce. Is it your testimony
5 that Zepce was part of the -- was part of the 2nd Corps?
6 A. Only a small part of the territory of Zepce
7 Q. Okay. Let's look at P02805. That's P02805.
8 A. [In English] Excuse me, on desk or this?
9 Q. Both, but if you can find it. 2805. And now you have it on the
10 screen, sir.
11 A. M'mm-hmm.
12 Q. Okay. So this is a document dated June 16th, 1993, and it's to
13 Bruno Stojic and General Petkovic and Commander Blaskic, and it's signed
14 by Ivo Lozancic. I just want to talk to you a little about this, and I
15 want to go to the very beginning. And it says:
16 "There have been some changes in the areas of the 110th and the
17 111th Zepce."
18 I'll ask you a question here. The 110th was the
19 110th HVO Brigade that was under the 2nd Corps; correct?
20 A. [Interpretation] No, that's not correct.
21 Q. Okay. So what was the HVO brigade that was under the
22 ABiH Command in that area?
23 A. Your Honours, Madam Prosecutor, it's a question of wording. We
24 can't say that the brigade was under the ABiH. I said quite clearly the
25 110th HVO Brigade was part of Operative Group 7. Operative Group 7 was
1 physically cut off from the 2nd Corps all the time. We had
2 communications, we received reports from them, but we had no physical
3 connections. I wish it to be clarified. What does it mean when it said
4 that it was under the control of?
5 Q. Let me ask you another question. Operative Group 7 --
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, your question
7 [as interpreted] is not satisfactory, from a military point of view. You
8 say that the 110th Brigade was part of Operative Group number 7 and that
9 this operative group was physically cut off, but you said that "we had
10 communications," and you deduct that there is no control. In military
11 terms, this is impossible. How do you explain that?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Antonetti, I can
13 explain it.
14 In military subordination, there are certain rules that are
15 always applied. Operative Group 7 or the command of that group, which
16 was later a division, is a level at which the 2nd corps command had
17 control. That was our level of communication. A lower level of
18 communication was between Operative Group 7 and its brigades. In terms
19 of operations and combat, that included the 110th HVO Brigade.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But in the chain of
21 command, the commander of the 2nd Corps had control over all the units
22 that were under Group number 7; yes or no?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's correct as
24 regards to the situation that existed at the time and as far as this was
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, please proceed.
2 MS. WEST: Thank you.
3 Q. So let me just read part -- excuse me. I'll just read part of
4 this, and then we can talk about it. The beginning says:
5 "There have been some changes in the areas of the 110th and 111th
6 Zepce brigades since the last report, although there have been no active
7 combat operations. Relations with the Muslims, however, are becoming
8 more complex. The pressure is growing for them to open hostilities in
9 these parts. They even received an order to remove civilians out of
10 Zepce towards Zenica. Croatian citizens in Maglaj and Zavidovici are
11 constantly being provoked. In Usura, Croats are under pressure to
12 recognise Muslim authorities and command. The Serbs are fully observing
13 the cease-fire on all lines towards us. They are continuously fighting
14 in parts where the Muslims are. Yesterday, they conducted an operation
15 on the line towards Zavidovici. On 14 June 1993 towards Tesanj, Muslims
16 suffered great losses, but the lines remained unchanged.
17 "Serbs, headed by Colonel Arsic, commander of the Operative
18 Group, Doboj, are offering full cooperation and a joint front against
19 civilians in these parts and they want a quick answer, yes or no."
20 I'm not going to read the next page of this, and you can go over
21 this in redirect, if you like. But you would agree with me that in
22 Zepce, which part of it was within the 2nd Corps, in Zepce the Serbs and
23 the Croats, in fact, cooperated against the Muslims; is that right?
24 A. Your Honour, Your Honours, I wish to clarify a misunderstanding
25 which has evidently arisen here. This document, in its heading, says
1 "111th XP Brigade." This was never part of the 2nd Corps. This is their
2 report. Look to the right. To whom was this report addressed?
3 Operative Zone Vitez to Tomo Blaskic. So this brigade was not part of
4 the 2nd Corps. It was under the command of Tomo Blaskic, so I cannot
5 comment on it.
6 Q. I will accept that, but do you stand by the fact that the
7 2nd Corps had some authority over Zepce or parts of Zepce were under the
8 2nd Corps?
9 A. That was such a small area. The 111th Brigade was in Zepce, and
10 the other one was completely elsewhere. They had no physical links.
11 Q. Okay. You didn't answer my question, but let me ask another one.
12 Do you remember --
13 A. I've answered it very precisely, very precisely. I have to
14 correct you. We had control over 110th Brigade through Operative Zone 7.
15 The 110th Brigade was completely to the north. The 111th from Zepce was
16 to the south. They had no physical contacts, or they had no command
17 contacts. On the territory of Zepce
18 Commander Blaskic who had control.
19 Q. Okay. Can we go to P10884. P10884. This is another document,
20 and it's to the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Supreme
21 Command Staff, and this regards Zepce as well. And I see that you have
22 the B/C/S. If we can go to number 2, and it says:
23 "Around 1300 hours yesterday," and this was dated July 1, 1993,
24 "the town of Zepce
25 So my question to you, Mr. Makar: Is this consistent with your
1 memory as well, that Zepce fell to the hands of both HVO and Serbian
3 A. Your Honours, if we are going to continue in this vein, I beg
4 that we get the proper map for me to show you things. And the main part
5 of the Zepce area was not under our control at all. And, secondly, this
6 report has nothing to do with the 2nd Corps, so I don't see why I'm being
7 asked about it.
8 Q. I'll accept, for the --
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we all agree the
10 2nd Corps is not involved here. However, there is a document, and I'm
11 being very cautious here, there is a document that could establish the
12 fact that the Croats and the Serbs jointly fought and won the city of --
13 the town of Zepce
14 between the Croats and the Serbs. This is what Ms. West is trying to
15 bring to light through her questions.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question is clear
17 to me, but I cannot answer a question about something I have no knowledge
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
20 Please proceed.
21 MS. WEST:
22 Q. So just to be clear, sir, is it your testimony that you have no
23 knowledge of the fact that Zepce fell to the HVO and the Serbs? You have
24 no memory of that, no understanding of that?
25 A. Well, that's right. You say it fell into the hands of the Serbs
1 and the HVO. No, I don't know about that.
2 Q. All right. Let's look at one more document, P03272. It's 3272.
3 This is another -- this is a document to Bruno Stojic. It's signed by
4 Lozancic, and it says we have -- and it talks about this same area, and
5 it says:
6 "We have been at war with the Muslims for 17 days. On the third
7 day of the war, we had to abandon our positions favouring the Serbs.
"The Serbs from our zone are attacking the town of Zavidovici
9 Our battalion is also involved, and we expect to make an advance today.
10 Maglaj is completely encircled, as is Tesanj. Our forces are acting
11 together. The battalion has been engaged in operations on Maglaj. The
12 Serbs have brought in three brigades to the region and have deployed them
13 in the Novi Seher area.
14 "We are holding the town of Zepce."
15 Sir, this is July 7th. The first town that I mentioned,
16 Zavidovici - I hope I'm pronouncing it correctly - is that an area that
17 is within of the auspices of the 2nd Corps?
18 A. I don't think Zavidovici was, no.
19 Q. Okay. How about Maglaj? That was a town you mentioned earlier.
20 A. Excuse me. Zavidovici, I think, was under the 3rd Corps. If I
21 had a map, it would be easier for me to explain it. But what was your
22 other question, sorry?
23 Q. Maglaj, that was a town you mentioned?
24 A. Maglaj? Your Honours, Maglaj, yes, we had two brigades of the
25 BH Army in Maglaj. That was Operative Group 7.
1 Q. And Tesanj?
2 A. Tesanj, it's hard to say. You're probably referring to the
3 broader area of Tesanj. We held a part of Tesanj municipality, and a
4 part was held by the Chetniks, so that the wording that Maglaj was fully
5 encircled and Tesanj, well, yes, that's how it was throughout the war,
6 that's correct. And those forces there fought while in encirclement all
7 the time throughout the war. These were the forces of Operative Group 7.
8 Q. And, sir, were you aware that in the beginning of July, the
9 Serbian forces that were attacking these towns, including Maglaj and
10 Tesanj, were acting in concert with the HVO?
11 A. I knew that the Serb forces were attacking Maglaj and Tesanj,
12 those two towns, and that's quite clear. I did not know that they were
13 acting in concert with the HVO. This is the first I've heard of it, but
14 I fear you're just speculating about that.
15 Q. Sir, how do you reconcile the fact that in the area where you
16 worked and fought, you were cooperating with the HVO and they were
17 helping you, you were helping them; but in other areas of the BiH, the
18 same HVO with whom you were working was actually fighting against you?
19 How do you reconcile those two notions?
20 A. You must be precise. When you say that the HVO fought against
21 "you," against us, the HVO never fought against me and the 2nd Corps.
22 Q. That's not my question. I will agree with you that the HVO --
23 A. Excuse me. Yes, forgive me. The first part of your question, I
24 cannot say why something happened in some other area, because I would
25 then be speculating.
1 Q. So is it your testimony that you have -- sorry.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please be very precise
3 in your answers, because this question is very important and it was asked
4 to other witnesses.
5 You know, we've been dealing with this trial for several years,
6 and the trial is far from being finished; but we have a huge heap of
7 documents, and in those documents, including the one that we have before
8 us, it is very clear. It is a document from the 111th XP Brigade, dated
9 7th of July, 1993, to Mate Boban and also to Mr. Stojic, who is minister
10 of defence, and this document states that there is, between the HVO and
11 the Serbs, a common action against the Muslims. This is what the
12 document says.
13 On the other hand, and you said it to us, the 2nd Corps of the
14 ABiH, with units of the HVO, were fighting against the Serbs. So from an
15 external point of view, like us at the Bench, we are asking ourselves,
16 What does this mean? And you are an important witness, and you could
17 shed some light on what was happening, and you could say, Yes, because
18 the situation, you know, is very complex. And the more documents we
19 peruse and the more we realise that it is very complex, and Ms. West is
20 asking you a question that makes perfect sense. Perhaps you have no
21 idea, perhaps it was the first time that you hear of this. Please tell
22 us so. If you were aware of this, please tell us how you interpret those
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honours,
25 Madam Prosecutor, at the beginning of today's session I attempted to
1 explain what my opinion is and why this came about, as far as I know.
2 You have had occasion to hear other witnesses, and I can tell you who
3 spoke about this to you. My standpoint, in general, is the following:
4 There was no conflict between the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO
5 on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I'm being very precise. So
6 if we are talking about a conflict on the territory of
7 Bosnia and Herzegovina, this would cover the entire territory and all or
8 most of the population on each side. It would have had to be going on
9 throughout the war or for most of the war. This, however, was not the
10 case. We can enumerate specific places and locations where conflicts
11 took place.
12 I think that in the course of this trial, which has been going on
13 for a really long time, this has all been said, it has all been put
15 One of the witnesses, Mr. Majic, because out of professional
16 curiosity I have been following this trial, is a man who works in a
17 warehouse. I do not want to disparage him, but he said there were some
18 forces of something like KOS
19 study the project of Greater Serbia, the writings of Garasanin entitled
20 "Nacertanije," and there are other documents, in order to understand all
22 You are all lawyers, I am not a lawyer. But quite logically to
23 establish why a crime was committed and who the perpetrator is, you have
24 to find a motive. Who had a motive for causing a conflict between the
25 BH Army and the HVO, if they did not manage to cause a conflict in
1 certain areas? All this would be clear if you knew about the project of
2 Greater Serbia
3 I think that the esteemed Prosecutor's office should not
4 underestimate the intelligence capabilities of the Yugoslav Army. I
5 cannot know for certain whether the HVO and the Serb side acted in
6 concert somewhere or not, but if this did happen, a motive should be
8 As I'm here as a fact witness in a specific area of knowledge,
9 I'm not here as an expert, I don't want to go into this any further,
10 because I have not prepared myself to testify about it. If you need me
11 to elaborate on this, I have to prepare for that.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, please proceed.
13 MS. WEST: Thank you.
14 Q. Mr. Makar, you were asked --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
16 MS. WEST: Excuse me.
17 Q. You were asked yesterday by counsel what would have happened had
18 the HVO not facilitated MTS to the 2nd Corps, what would have happened to
19 the 2nd Corps; and I think your answer was, quite simply, that the
20 2nd Corps would have been destroyed. Do you remember that testimony?
21 A. Yes, that's what I said.
22 Q. I have a similar question for you: What would have happened to
23 the Croats in the Posavina corridor if the ABiH had teamed up with the
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. Calls for speculation.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, that's a hypothetical
2 question. I can't answer that. I don't think there's any point in that.
3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Nevertheless, Mr. Karnavas, I think Ms. West has
4 rightly quoted a question of exactly the same character that was posed by
5 the Defence, to which the witness has answered, so I think it's a bit
6 tu quoque, but in a relatively innocent arms type of way.
7 Ms. Nozica, yes.
8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I do apologise, but
9 you misunderstood my question completely. I asked the witness what
10 had -- what would have happened if the 2nd Corps, in which he was, had
11 not received those weapons. The objection of Mr. Karnavas is in that he
12 is being asked about a territory where he was not present, and that's why
13 it would be speculation for him to say what would have happened there,
14 because he wasn't there. So that would amount to speculation. I asked
15 him about an area where he was present in the Command of the 2nd Corps.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Praljak.
17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't wish
18 to testify. The general is here, and he knows that in the autumn of
19 1992, except for a small area, what we call the Posavina, fell into Serb
21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Praljak, you are telling us a story, and
22 you're not supposed to do that, so please sit down.
23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I'm not telling you a
24 story. For three years, after dozens of documents, the fact is still not
25 known that in October, Bosanski Brod fell and the Serbs reached the Sava
1 Excuse me. After three years, that the Serbs reached the Sava on the
2 10th -- in October and there was no more HVO on the Posavina.
3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Praljak, I can understand that you get
4 aggravated, but you are, in fact, telling us what the Serb did, this and
5 that, and that is telling us facts. You may be right, you may be wrong,
6 but it is not your task to do this. It is simply not your role. These
7 are criminal proceedings, and they follow rules, and you also have to
8 follow them. I am sorry.
9 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
10 Judge Trechsel, I want to obey the Rules fully, but, please, the basic
11 fact that the Bosnian Posavina ceased to exist --
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Praljak, you are
13 telling us things that we're discovering now, but what you should have
14 done in order to avoid this type of problem, is write down on a piece of
15 paper and you send it to your lawyer and say, Here is the problem. And
16 your counsel looks at this and he hands it to Ms. Nozica, who can, you
17 know, ask additional questions in redirect. Now, you -- first, she
18 doesn't answer questions. You will have a chance to come back on this
19 when you testify. I know you're writing notes. I'm sure you will
20 remember, or when one of your witnesses comes up, you can bring up the
21 question again.
22 So we are in proceedings where the accused should not testify.
23 You are entitled to remain silent. If you testify, there is another
24 procedure that comes into play. In your country and in my country,
25 probably the proceedings might be different. We may win some time, but
1 the Judges all adopted this procedure, so we're all -- we're all bound by
2 these Rules.
3 So, Ms. West, you have -- well, actually, have you no time left
4 because it's 7.00 now. So we will continue tomorrow. You will have
5 another hour and 22 minutes, and I hope that there will be no objections
6 which will lead to multiplying this time by four.
7 So, Mr. Witness, please do come back tomorrow. We expect you
8 here at 2.00, a quarter past 2.00, a quarter past 2.00, not half past
9 2.00, because we're going to resume at 2.15 tomorrow.
10 So I wish you all a very pleasant evening.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.
12 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of
13 March, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.