Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7349

 1                           Tuesday, 28 April 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The accused Prlic and Coric not present]

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you kindly call

 8     the case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10             Good afternoon, everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is

11     case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

12             Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

14             Today is Tuesday.  I would like to greet the accused, Defence

15     counsel, the witness, Mr. Scott and his associate, and all the people

16     assisting us today.

17             Registrar, I believe you have three IC numbers to give us.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  That's right, Your Honour.

19             2D has submitted its objections to the list of documents tendered

20     by the OTP via witness Ivan Bagaric.  This list shall be given

21     Exhibit IC994.  4D has also submitted their objections to the list of

22     documents tendered by Witness Ivan Bagaric.  This list shall be given

23     Exhibit IC995.  And the OTP has submitted its objections to the list of

24     documents tendered by 2D and 3D via Witness Ivan Bagaric.  This list

25     shall be given Exhibit IC996.  Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 7350

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

 2             Ms. Alaburic, I'll give you the floor back again.  I believe you

 3     had a question which you wished to put to the witness again.

 4             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

 5     morning to everyone else in the courtroom.

 6                           WITNESS:  DRAGAN JURIC [Resumed]

 7                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

 8                           Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic: [Continued]

 9        Q.   And a special good morning to you, Mr. Juric.  We're going to

10     start with a document today that we were discussing yesterday, and in my

11     binder it is 2D774.  Yes, 774.  Have you found it, Mr. Juric?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   I'm going to ask you to clarify what KOS is, to start off with.

14     Was KOS the secret service of the Yugoslav People's Army?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   All right, fine.  Now, during the 1990s, was the secret service

17     in the Army of Republika Srpska considered to be the KOS as well, or any

18     other Serb army?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now, read this penultimate paragraph, and it says:

21             "During negotiations with the commanders of the BH Army in

22     Parsovici, the most extreme views were held by Jusa Hadzajlic, nicknamed

23     Homeini, and we believe he encourages the conflict the most.  It is not

24     excluded that he is a KOS member," or a KOS man.

25             Now, tell me, Mr. Juric, the members of the HVO, did they

Page 7351

 1     sometimes consider that extremists like this among the Muslim forces

 2     were, in fact, members of KOS and that they intentionally tried to fan

 3     the flames of conflict with the Croats?

 4        A.   I don't know this gentleman here, but from unofficial talks, I

 5     heard that he lived and worked in Klis and that he cooperated closely

 6     with the commander of this brigade, the Neretvica Brigade, in Klis.  As

 7     to the other details about his work and duties, I really can't say.

 8        Q.   Very well.  Let's move on to the next document.  It is 2D775,

 9     which is a document sent by Mr. Slavko Puljic on the 8th of April, 1993,

10     to the Main Staff and the operations zone, informing them of the work of

11     the commission.  Tell me first, please, Mr. Juric, whether you knew that

12     Slavko Puljic was a member of the commission of the BH Army and the HVO

13     which was supposed to calm tensions in the area.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, in this report, mention is made of the attack on the

16     barracks, called Goran Stanic in Seonica, and it goes on to say that the

17     attack stopped.  Now, does that correspond to what you knew about this

18     period referred to in the report?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now let's look at his conclusion together, where he says that,

21     taking control of the barracks, the HVO forces would be routed and would

22     influence their ability to defend, and that the Neretvica Brigade

23     constantly asked for reinforcements from Prozor.  Does that correspond to

24     what you knew the situation to be on the ground, in the field?

25        A.   From what the commander of our brigade informed us about, it was

Page 7352

 1     precisely these elements that were discussed.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Yes, your answer has been recorded now.  Let's go on

 3     to the next document, which is 2D776.  Once again, we have Slavko Puljic

 4     writing on the following day, which is the 9th of April, 1993, and he

 5     says that the day was calm with further provocations.  And in the middle

 6     of the text, he says that passersby going to Boksevica were still being

 7     harassed, and he quotes as an example the disarming of "one of our

 8     communications officers who was returning from Boksevica with a group of

 9     soldiers."  Now, tell me whether this kind of provocation and incidents

10     like this corresponds to what you knew about the situation at the

11     beginning of April 1993 in the area.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now let's look at the next document, which is P1874, and that is

14     a collection of reports from the HVO Main Staff for the 13th of April.

15     It's a collective report for the 13th of April.  And if we look at

16     page 2, under point 3, we have a heading there which says "Reports from

17     Konjic."  There are three of them, and we're going to comment on each of

18     them briefly.

19             In the first report, it says, "for the 13th of April."  Now, tell

20     me, please, the 13th of April, that's when the all-out attack by the

21     BH Army started against HVO forces in the Konjic area; is that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   It says here that on that day, the 13th of April, in the

24     early-morning hours, the Croatian village of Buscak was attacked and then

25     that attempts were made to cross the lake from Ostrozac and to take

Page 7353

 1     control of Falanovo Brdo and that Buturovic Polje was shelled with the 15

 2     shells.

 3             Now, tell us, please, Mr. Juric, this description of events, does

 4     it correspond to what you know happened in the area at the time?

 5        A.   At this point in time on this particular day, I didn't know of

 6     operations of this kind, but I learnt about them later on, because

 7     between the 13th and 14th, that was the date when there was a clash in my

 8     area.

 9        Q.   I see, thank you.  Now, as to report 2, the village of Buscak is

10     mentioned once again, and it says that the village is about to fall.

11     Tell us, did it indeed fall on that day and the following day?

12        A.   As far as I know, it did fall, but whether it was that day or the

13     next day, I'm not quite sure.

14        Q.   All right, fine.  Now, it says that a strong reinforcement

15     arrived from Jablanica, and that is reinforcement in the BH Army, and

16     that they were moving towards Mrakovo and Zuglici, with the object of

17     taking control of Boksevica.  Tell us, Mr. Juric, to the best of your

18     knowledge, regardless of the fact that this relates to another area in

19     Konjic municipality, did the BH Army really attempt to take control of

20     Boksevica?

21        A.   I've already said that I wasn't in the area myself, but Boksevica

22     was a dominant elevation from which you could control the whole area, so

23     quite certainly in that operation it was part of the plan, and they

24     probably wanted to take control of it.

25        Q.   Now, Boksevica is the name of a large hill in the area; is that

Page 7354

 1     right?

 2        A.   Yes, it's the highest elevation, the highest feature in the Klis

 3     area, from which you can control Jablanica and Prozor, et cetera.

 4        Q.   Now take a look at the last sentence in report number 3, which

 5     says:

 6             "This is an all-out attack on the entire zone of Konjic and

 7     Jablanica."

 8             Would you agree with that?  Is that what happened in the area at

 9     that time?

10        A.   Yes, and I've already said that.

11        Q.   All right, fine.  Now let's take a look at the next document,

12     which is P1879.  And once again that is a collective set of reports from

13     the HVO for the 14th of April.  And if we look at number 4, which is on

14     page 2 of your document, Mr. Juric, once again we have reports from

15     Konjic, and it says the fighting started in Konjic as well:

16             "Our villages of Obri and Vrci have been attacked."

17             Tell us, please, whether those villages are closer to your area

18     of responsibility.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And were those villages indeed attacked on that day?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now let's take a look at the following page, where it says that

23     combat operations are continuing and that in Doljani, "one of our

24     soldiers were killed," and that another soldier is still alive.  Now, did

25     you know about the fact that fighting had begun in Doljani at that time?

Page 7355

 1     If not, it's not important.

 2        A.   No, my knowledge about the events in the area of responsibility

 3     of the 3rd Battalion, which was in Jablanica, and everything that

 4     happened in the area, I learnt about that in 1994, in April, when I left

 5     the encirclement.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Ms. Alaburic, your last questions give the

 8     impression that there was an attack and then the attackers killed a

 9     soldier.  If you read the whole passage, it continues saying:

10             "He wounded himself while under the influence of alcohol, and he

11     died later."

12             So it's a bit difficult to connect this to any kind of military

13     attack, isn't it?

14             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, but there's another

15     wounded soldier that is mentioned, and my question was about the fighting

16     in the Doljani area, because as events unfolded, we will see that there

17     was fighting towards Doljani, and that particular village will be

18     specifically mentioned, so we'll see that there really was combat going

19     on there.  But, yes, I agree with what you've said.  I take that on

20     board, yes.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, on Doljani, the

23     witness said that he only heard about that in 1994.  I don't know whether

24     it's useful for you to continue asking questions about this, because what

25     he knows about Doljani relates to 1994.

Page 7356

 1             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he learnt about what

 2     happened at the relevant time in 1994, so the witness's answer can be

 3     relevant for these proceedings.  And my second comment is that I did not

 4     ask the question after the witness's answer because Judge Trechsel

 5     rightly intervened.

 6        Q.   So let's clear this up, Mr. Juric.  Can you tell us what it was

 7     that you learnt in 1994, about Doljani, about April 1993?

 8        A.   When I left the encirclement at the end of March 1994, I happened

 9     to meet some of my co-fighters, and we talked about what had happened in

10     the Jablanica area during that time.  And from this person or this group

11     that I met, I learnt that they had been attacked on the 14th as well,

12     just as we had been in Konjic and the other ones in Klisa, and that there

13     was heavy fighting, and he told me that a large portion of civilians, and

14     several fighters with them, managed to escape from the siege, but that

15     quite a number of people had been killed, but those who didn't succeed in

16     pulling out were transferred to the museum in Jablanica.  So that's my

17     information about that event.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Let's move on now.  And in the area which relates to

19     Prozor, the report from Prozor, in paragraph 4 we see the following.  It

20     says:

21             "Today the commander of the Herceg Stjepan Brigade asked for

22     reinforcements from the Rama Brigade, from a launcher on the villages

23     mentioned, and he stated that they were in a dreadful situation, and "you

24     should start immediately before it's too late."  He says:

25             "The Rama Brigade fired 107-millimetre launchers, one charge on

Page 7357

 1     Kruscica."

 2             And then it goes on to say:

 3             "We have forbidden our artillery fire before an order to fire is

 4     received and before the commanders are appointed who will be in charge of

 5     the areas of responsibility and before observation posts and wire links

 6     are established, so as to be able to follow the shots -- observe the

 7     shots and corrective reports properly given.  There were requests today

 8     for open artillery fire, too, which we did not permit for the reasons

 9     mentioned above."

10             Now, my question to you, Mr. Juric, is as follows:  Did you know

11     that the commander of your brigade, that is to say, the Herceg Stjepan

12     Brigade, asked for reinforcement and assistance from the neighbouring

13     Prozor brigade of Rama and particularly with respect to artillery

14     support?

15        A.   I have no knowledge of that.

16        Q.   All right, fine.  Now let's look at the report from Konjic once

17     again, and that is on page 4 of the document, sir, Mr. Juric.  I don't

18     know where this is in the English text, but it could be the penultimate

19     page.  Anyway, the report from Konjic for the 15th of April, 1993, and it

20     says the following:

21             "During the night, large movements of Muslim forces were noticed.

22     There are movements of a sabotage group from the village of Mrakovo and

23     Rodici, Jablanica municipality, in the direction of the Didik [phoen], a

24     very important hill of Boksevica."

25             Now, tell me, Mr. Juric, this hill of Boksevica, that was the

Page 7358

 1     strategic feature mentioned earlier on; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, on page 5 it says that large movements were noted from the

 4     village of Celina towards the village of Grevici, which is located in the

 5     Prozor municipality to the north of Boksevica, and everything is geared

 6     towards taking Boksevica, and if that happens "then we will be in a

 7     situation from which we cannot emerge."

 8             Now, tell me, your knowledge of the situation there and the

 9     terrain, tell us whether the BH Army managed to take control of

10     Boksevica, or had it been able to take control of Boksevica, would the

11     HVO in that area --

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Ms. Alaburic.

13     Please go more slowly.

14             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I

15     apologise to everybody.  I will slow down.

16        Q.   According to what you know about the situation on the ground and

17     according to what you know about the ground, would you say that if

18     Boksevica had been taken by the BH Army, the HVO in the territory of the

19     three municipalities, Prozor, Jablanica and Konjic, would indeed have

20     been put in a hopeless situation, as it says in the report?

21        A.   Boksevica is indeed strategically the most important feature,

22     especially in the area of responsibility in Klis.  Whoever is in charge

23     of Boksevica is in charge of the road towards Jablanica, Prozor, and it

24     also controls the entire territory of Klis, all the way up to Obri and

25     Vrci and where they border on the municipality or the city of Konjic.  In

Page 7359

 1     my opinion, at that point it was the most decisive feature and whoever

 2     held this feature held the control.

 3        Q.   Can we look at 2D246 now.  It's an order issued by

 4     Commander Enes Kovacevic.  In item 3, he says where one battalion is

 5     supposed to go and be prepared for offensive on the positions of the HVO.

 6     What I'm interested in is the following, I quote:

 7             "Upon the complete mobilisation, the 2nd Company is to take

 8     positions in Boksevica and be prepared for offensive operations."

 9             This document is dated 14 April 1993.  Would such an order on

10     taking Boksevica correspond to what was going on on the ground and what

11     we have just discussed, Mr. Juric?

12        A.   Yes, of course.

13        Q.   Under item 5, can we now look at where it says:

14             "Upon the complete mobilisation, the 4th Battalion, with its 1st,

15     2nd, 3rd, and 4th Platoon, should take positions in the direction of

16     Risovac, and the 5th Platoon has to go in the direction of Doljani and be

17     prepared to carry out decisive defence until the moment the assistance

18     arrives.  The positions on Obri should be reinforced by anti-armour

19     equipment and one platoon control the traffic there, and as soon as the

20     combat starts, you should not allow passage in the direction of the

21     villages of Sovici and Doljani."

22             The date on the document is 14 April 1993.  Would you say that

23     this order corresponds to what you know about the movement on certain

24     units of the BiH Army and the objectives and targets of their actions?

25        A.   I already said briefly what I know about what was happening in

Page 7360

 1     the area, so I wouldn't be able to provide you any more details about

 2     this.  I've never seen this before.  I've never met this before.

 3        Q.   Let's look at the following document, which is 4D453, 453.  It

 4     has already been admitted into evidence.  That's why we will not dwell

 5     upon it for any longer time here.

 6             The commander of your brigade is Zdravko Sagolj.  On the 15th of

 7     April, 1993, sent a request for assistance to the Main Staff, to the

 8     operations zone of Zeljko Siljeg, to the operation zone of South-east

 9     Herzegovina, to the HVO of Central Bosnia, to the Rama Brigade in Prozor.

10     He also says that Konjic has come under attack by the forces that had

11     arrived from Bradina and Igman.  According to what you know, for the

12     purpose of that attack, did other forces of the Army of Bosnia and

13     Herzegovina arrive in the territory of Konjic at the time?

14        A.   Already yesterday, I said that we were attacked by the forces

15     that came from elsewhere.  Zuka's units, Black Swans, Swallows, and some

16     special MUP units from Adzic and so on and so forth, it was those units

17     that carried out the attack, rather than the units that were in town.

18        Q.   In the last sentence, it says:

19             "Start moving while we are still alive."

20             One could conclude that the situation was indeed alarming, and if

21     the HVO did not receive a substantive assistance in a short period of

22     time, it would lose all the relevant positions in the territory of Konjic

23     municipality.  Would you draw the same conclusion, based on the last

24     sentence?

25        A.   Of course.

Page 7361

 1        Q.   Very well.  And now we are going to skip a few documents,

 2     Mr. Juric, because we don't have enough time.  We're going to skip two

 3     documents, and we're going to dwell upon the next one, which is 3D557.

 4     This is a handwritten order issued by Arif Pasalic on 16th of April,

 5     1993.  It says here -- or, rather, Arif Pasalic says that the forces of

 6     the HVO in the Neretvica sector are in a dire position because they don't

 7     have enough manpower.  Would that be a fair assessment?

 8        A.   Could you please repeat?  I am finding it difficult to read the

 9     handwriting.

10        Q.   He says that the HVO is in dire straits because they don't have

11     enough manpower.  My question is this -- is whether this was indeed

12     correct.

13        A.   Yes, that's true.

14        Q.   The next sentence, Arif Pasalic says that the HVO forces

15     requested from their artillery in Pisovac [phoen] to pound the positions

16     of the BiH Army north of Neretvica.  We have just mentioned those

17     requests for assistance in artillery.  Can we then conclude that this

18     statement on the part of Arif Pasalic is also correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   In item 3 of this document, it says:

21             "HVO units are expecting assistance in manpower from the areas in

22     the north, and the HVO units in Kiseljak have been ordered to come to

23     their assistance across Bradina."

24             Would you say that this expectation of assistance in manpower in

25     Prozor is a correct statement on the part of Arif Pasalic?

Page 7362

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Let's now look at what it says in the order itself.  Arif Pasalic

 3     says or orders all the forces not to allow the arrival of new forces from

 4     Prozor towards -- across the villages of Kacuni, Grevici and Bradina.

 5     Did you know that the BH Army prevented the arrival of assistance in

 6     manpower in the territory of Konjic?

 7        A.   Of course I'm aware of that.  In all those places, all of those

 8     places were encircled by the BiH Army.

 9        Q.   Let's skip two more documents.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, the interpreters

11     are beseeching you to go more slowly, beseeching you.  The problem stems

12     from the fact that when you're reading a document which has already been

13     translated into English, the interpreters have no problem translating

14     from your language into French -- into English, but since the French

15     interpreters do not have the text, they are handicapped by this.

16             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I would like to take the opportunity to ask for

17     a clarification.

18             Mr. Juric, you were presented with this letter, where Pasalic

19     thinks that the HVO is expecting support from Prozor, and previously we

20     have seen that Prozor was asked to bring in reinforcement, and you were

21     asked whether the statement of Pasalic that the HVO was expecting

22     assistance in manpower was a correct statement.  Your answer was:  "No."

23     Could you explain what this "no" means?  What was wrong?  In which way

24     was Arif Pasalic wrong?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In military terms, commander

Page 7363

 1     Arif Pasalic looked at the situation on the ground and he thought they

 2     were controlling the area, so it was impossible for HVO units to

 3     penetrate through those areas and come to the assistance of those who

 4     were encircled.  I know only too well that Zuka's units were on Bradina.

 5     They held the plateau there, and they launched attacks on the villages of

 6     Obri and Ivice [as interpreted], so from the direction of Bradina,

 7     nothing could penetrate towards Klis.  And the area between Klis and

 8     Prozor was also covered by the BH Army, so there was no way for the HVO

 9     to help the units that were encircled.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I understand that, Mr. Juric, but one can still

11     expect something.  I mean, one asks for assistance.  It may not be

12     possible to bring the assistance, but one may still have some hope.  So

13     it's not a real contrast to say they're expecting help, if it is in fact

14     not possible to bring the help.  That's what I wanted to clarify.

15             Thank you.

16             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Juric, just an additional question.  If I understood you

18     correctly, in Konjic you expected assistance from Prozor, but you

19     expected artillery support, not manpower, because people could physically

20     not cross the territory and reach you because that territory was under

21     the control of BiH Army.  Did I understand you correctly?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Very well.  We'll skip the next two documents and we'll move on

24     to 4D599.  You are familiar with the document because it was prepared by

25     Bruno Stojic's Defence as their own document, and that's why I believe

Page 7364

 1     that we will go through it really quickly.

 2             This is a combat report by Esad Ramic to the commander of the

 3     4th Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and let's just look at the

 4     most important features.  The report is for 17 of April, and it says that

 5     feature Stari Grad is encircled.  Tell me, please --

 6        A.   I apologise.  What's the document number?

 7        Q.   599, 4D599.  What is the document that you have in front of you?

 8     Maybe I can assist you.

 9        A.   4D559.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There must be a mistake,

11     Ms. Alaburic.  4D599 that we have is a report of the 19th of November.

12             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  My assistant tells

13     me that the document, I don't know why, has not been included, but I

14     would like to address the honourable Trial Chamber to look at the

15     document in the binder that has been prepared by my learned friend

16     Nozica.  At the moment, unfortunately, I don't have the number of the

17     document, so I would kindly ask my learned friend to advise me in that

18     respect.

19                           [Defence counsel confer]

20             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] 2D1305.  2D1305 is the number, and

21     in the future that's the number that I will be mentioning, and that's how

22     we are going to ask for its admission.  You have it in the electronic

23     court.  This is a combat report by an army [as interpreted] from the

24     BH Army.  It says that the HVO is encircled in Stari Grad.

25        Q.   Tell me, Mr. Juric, would that correspond to what you knew about

Page 7365

 1     what was going on on the day?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   The next feature that is mentioned is Zlatar.  It says that that

 4     feature is also fully encircled, that it has been encircled by

 5     60 soldiers from the Black Swans unit, 40 members of the special units of

 6     the Hadzici MUP, and 80 soldiers of the 7th Brigade from Konjic.  It is

 7     also said that so far around 20 HVO soldiers have been captured.

 8     Mr. Juric, would this description of the event correspond to what you

 9     know was going on?

10        A.   Yes, everything's correct.

11        Q.   Let's look at the HVO positions in Polje Bijela.  It says that

12     the BH Army forces have disarmed 15 soldiers.  Is that true?

13        A.   Yes, this is where there were defence lines facing the Army of

14     Republika Srpska, and this is where the positions were manned by the HVO

15     and by the BiH Army, and that's how the HVO soldiers were disarmed.

16        Q.   Go to the next page, please.  You will be able to see it on the

17     screen, sir.  The next page refers to the village of Radesine.  It says

18     that the village is encircled by the forces of the Army of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Is that correct, was that the case, Mr. Juric?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And now let's look at the end of the paragraph, and then I'll ask

22     for your comment.  It says, and I quote:

23             "We will attempt to bring the job to an end in Konjic as soon as

24     possible, and then, together with all the brigades, we're going to launch

25     a counter-attack in two different directions.  The first one will be

Page 7366

 1     Konjic-Jablanica-Mostar, and the second will be Konjic-Prozor-Rama."

 2             Mr. Juric, could you please comment on this part of the report?

 3     What is this part of the report actually about?

 4        A.   I've already spoken about this in my testimony.  What this

 5     gentleman is reporting about to his superior clearly points to the fact

 6     that the top echelons of the BiH Army had planned an action to clean

 7     Konjic as soon as possible and that BiH Army units could proceed further

 8     down towards Mostar and Jablanica.  They were supposed to clean the HVO

 9     in Konjic because they were the only HVO units that stood in their way

10     towards Jablanica and Mostar.

11        Q.   Mr. Juric, I can conclude from what you have just said that

12     Konjic was a very important strategic position for the beginning of the

13     offensive on the part of the BiH Army.  Did I understand you properly?

14        A.   Yes, you did.

15        Q.   Do you know that the area of Konjic, in the former Yugoslavia,

16     pursuant to the defence plans of the JNA, held a special position and had

17     a particular significance in the defence of the former state?

18        A.   According to the books from which I studied, a lot of actions --

19     a lot of offensives did go through Konjic and started in Konjic.  For

20     example, the battle on the River Neretva was one of them.

21        Q.   And when it comes to the area of Konjic, did the government of

22     the former Yugoslavia have special shelters there where the government of

23     Belgrade should have withdrawn in the case of war?  Were there special

24     depots built there, depots of ammunition and weapons, was there a

25     significant war industry located there?

Page 7367

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   The area of Konjic and Igman as well, did it have some

 3     significance if one wanted to prepare an action to liberate Sarajevo?

 4        A.   Could you please be more specific?  I don't know what you're

 5     asking me.

 6        Q.   Sarajevo was encircled by the Serb forces.  If the BiH Army had

 7     wanted to organise and implement an action to lift the blockade of

 8     Sarajevo, would that area of Konjic and Igman have been significant for

 9     the implementation of such a plan?

10        A.   Yes, there were talks about that, the military area or the

11     military features, which were prepared in case of an aggression against

12     the former Yugoslavia, that command would have been in that area.  In the

13     same way, the BiH Army planned to use the area from which to organise

14     actions, operations, and implement their plans, by the same token.

15        Q.   Thank you very much for your explanation.  Now let's look at the

16     following document, which is 4D445.  This is another combat report by the

17     BiH Army for 18 April.  Feature Zlatar is mentioned here, and it says

18     that the BiH Army had taken that feature.  Does that correspond to what

19     you know; Zlatar had fallen in the arms of the BiH Army?  Was that the

20     fact?

21        A.   Yes, it was.

22        Q.   Events in the town and in the neighbouring villages are

23     described.  What I am interested in is the penultimate paragraph, where

24     it says:

25             "It remains to liberate the strongholds on the left bank of the

Page 7368

 1     Neretva river, Turije, Zabrdje, Pomol, and Ljubinje."  Turije, Zabrdje,

 2     Pomol, and Ljubinje.

 3             Tell me, please, this is the area where you were; is that

 4     correct, Mr. Juric?

 5        A.   Yes.  However, Pomol is not on the left bank but, rather, on the

 6     right bank.  The gentleman who issued that report did not know exactly

 7     where Pomol was.

 8        Q.   It says:

 9             "The operation will take place tomorrow."

10             And now I'm interested in this next sentence, and I quote:

11             "The objective is to free as soon as possible and help

12     Jablanica."

13             And then it goes on to say:  "And further."

14             Now, could you tell us what it means, "help Jablanica further"?

15     Does it mean to take control of all the territory in Konjic, to move

16     towards Konjic, and then Mostar, et cetera; is that what it means?

17        A.   Yes, where the units are being included into the two axes or

18     directions.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And in the last sentence, it says:

20             "According to your dispatch for negotiations with the Chetniks of

21     the 23rd of April, 1993, at Butmir, Mr. Handzo, Mustafa, has been

22     assigned, who is a graduated political science expert."

23             Now, did you know that the BH Army, at the same time with attacks

24     on the HVO, was negotiating with the Chetniks or, rather, the Army of

25     Republika Srpska?

Page 7369

 1        A.   There was talk of that, but I can't say either way.  But rumours

 2     were going around that there was some kind of negotiations or talks going

 3     on, but I can't really say anything about that because I don't know about

 4     them.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now let's look at the next document, which is 4D1565.

 6     And this is once again a report from the BH Army from the 18th [Realtime

 7     transcript read in error "14th"] of April, 1993, and I'm interested in

 8     the last portion of that report, where it says:

 9             "Last night at 1800 hours, we sent a unit composed of 70 men to

10     carry out an attack in coordination with the Rebici village unit, from a

11     direction on Radesine, in order to assist the Ljubinje Battalion in

12     Celebici and to clear up the Konjic-Ostrozac road.  We sent a part of our

13     forces to Boksevica and a part towards the village of Doljani."

14             Now, tell us, please, Boksevica and the village of Doljani, they

15     are the geographical locations that we mentioned earlier on; isn't that

16     right, Mr. Juric?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, tell us, this description of events, does it correspond to

19     what you know about the situation on the ground?

20        A.   Yes.  The village of Radesine was under a total siege and

21     encirclement, and from this report we can see that it was held by the

22     units in the encirclement.

23        Q.   All right, fine.  I'd just like to correct a figure in the

24     transcript.  On page 21, line 2, the date of this document was

25     erroneously recorded.  So it's not the 14th of April, 1993, but the

Page 7370

 1     18th of April.

 2             Now, I'm probably running out of time, but I'd like to show

 3     Their Honours the ethnic structure of Konjic.  I'd like to deal with

 4     that, so I'm going to skip over all the other documents that I prepared

 5     and ask to have pulled up on e-court document 3D1070, 1070, page 5 of

 6     that document, which relates to Konjic, and which I don't have in my set

 7     of documents.

 8             So from this document, we can see -- well, the text is in

 9     Croatian, so we'll help the Trial Chamber out there.  It says that the

10     total number of inhabitants in 1991 was almost 44.000; that the number of

11     inhabitants in the municipal centre, that is to say, in the town of

12     Konjic itself, was 13.729.  And then we have the total number of members

13     of various ethnic groups, and then we have "Others" or miscellaneous.

14     And if we scroll down, we'll be able to see precisely what you told us

15     and described to us, Mr. Juric; that is to say, that most of those

16     villages were either Muslim or Croatian, and there were some Serb

17     villages as well.

18             Now, I would just like to ask you for your comments.  Looking at

19     this map, one could say that the Croatian villages were concentrated in

20     two particular areas; to the left of Konjic in Zabrdje, Zaslivlje, and

21     Turije, Zabrdje, Zaslivlje and Turije, and we mentioned those earlier on;

22     and then the second large concentration of Croatian villages is in the

23     upper left corner, which is the Klisa area; right, Mr. Juric?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Fine.  Now, if we have a little more time, let's look at the

Page 7371

 1     geographical maps that I have prepared for your testimony here.

 2             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Do we have time to look at all

 3     three maps, Your Honour?  I'd like to be able to show the witness all

 4     three maps.  If not, then I'll just show him the last map.  But may I

 5     have your guidance on that.

 6        Q.   Let's move on so we don't waste time with the last map.  The last

 7     document in my binder is 4D1219.  It's that map that I'd like you to look

 8     at now, 1219, which shows the situation in the Mostar, Jablanica and

 9     Konjic area in mid-September 1993, the last document in my set.  And from

10     this document, we can see that the entire area in Konjic municipality was

11     under the control of the BH Army, with the exception of the small blue

12     enclave around the village of Zaslivlje, Zabrdje and Turije.  Tell us,

13     please, Mr. Juric, this description of the situation, does it correspond

14     to what you know about the events on the ground?

15        A.   Yes, that is precisely that area, the area that we defended and

16     defended successfully.

17        Q.   Now take a look at the document just before that, 4D1216.

18             If I've used up my time --

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica [as interpreted],

20     please hurry, because your time is almost up.

21             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Yes, let's just see how the

22     situation developed.  So we'll move backwards.  4D1216 is the map I'd

23     like us to look at.  It's the same area, shows the same area, and it's

24     the situation to the end of June 1993.

25        Q.   And if we just look at the Konjic area, we'll be able to see that

Page 7372

 1     this entire area was under BH Army control, but that except for the

 2     enclave that we mentioned a moment ago in those -- the three villages,

 3     there was another enclave under the control of the HVO in the area of

 4     Klisa.  So does that correspond to what you know of the situation?

 5        A.   Yes, that is precisely that enclave.  It is Obri and Vrci, which

 6     fell last.  The soldiers surrendered, and they were captured and taken to

 7     the camp in the sports hall, and that was at the beginning -- and at the

 8     beginning of July, by the 5th of July, they had taken control of the line

 9     and this area.

10        Q.   All right.  And now the last document that we're going to take a

11     look at, the previous one, 4D626, and this is a map of the Konjic area

12     and the situation on the 24th of April, 1993.  And underlined we have the

13     names of the Croatian villages which were taken control of by the

14     BH Army.  The arrow indicates places which were currently under attack on

15     that day by the BH Army, and the circle indicates the Croatian enclave or

16     pocket near Konjic, around the three villages that we mentioned

17     previously.

18             From this map, it would follow, Mr. Juric, and I apologise if I'm

19     not going to read the names of the villages correctly, that up until that

20     day, that is to say, the 24th of April, numerous Croatian villages fell;

21     for example, Trusina, Puscak, Orliste, Budisina Ravan, and not to

22     enumerate all the other villages that are underlined in blue.  Take a

23     look at the map, please, Mr. Juric.  I'm sure you'll understand it and

24     find your way around, and tell us whether the map corresponds to your

25     knowledge of the situation and events on the ground in April 1993.

Page 7373

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Juric, thank you for your

 3     answers.

 4             Your Honours, thank you.  That completes my cross-examination.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

 6             Witness, I have only one follow-up question for you.  I could

 7     have put the question to you earlier, but I wanted to wait for

 8     Ms. Alaburic to finish.

 9             You've told us that the ABiH took Konjic to go towards Jablanica

10     because strategically this was an important thing, it was important that

11     the ABiH take Konjic and then only go to Jablanica, with the idea of

12     going on Mostar.  It's a military theory, of course, which is perfectly

13     plausible.  But when we look at the map - unfortunately, we don't have

14     the map right here - but there is a route, Jablanica-Bugojno, if you go

15     towards the north, and so the ABiH could have gone through Bugojno and

16     Mostar and to leave Konjic aside, to bypass Konjic.  Because you were in

17     a pocket, you were encircled by the ABiH, and in Konjic there were also

18     elements of the 7th Brigade of Konjic, from my point of view it was maybe

19     not necessary to take Konjic, but from the knowledge that you had of the

20     terrain, please tell us if the ABiH could have taken the

21     Bugojno-Jablanica-Mostar road without attacking you.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as the area

23     that you mentioned is concerned, Jablanica, Bugojno, and all the other

24     names, Vakuf, et cetera, I really don't know about that area, nor could I

25     talk about that and those axes, because I don't have the information.

Page 7374

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  Thank you

 2     for your answer.  We'll get back to that with other witnesses.

 3             Madam Prosecutor, you have the floor, and you have two hours for

 4     your cross-examination.

 5             MS. MOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6             Good morning to the Trial Chamber, to everyone in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             If possible, the Prosecution would like a short break.  We've had

 9     some computer problems, our case manager has had some computer problems,

10     and we would to also like distribute the Prosecution exhibits.  So if the

11     Trial Chamber doesn't mind, we would appreciate a short break before

12     starting.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, not a problem at

14     all.

15             Let's take a 20-minute break.

16                           --- Recess taken at 9.58 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 10.24 a.m.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We are back.  We

19     have our binders, and you have the floor, Madam Prosecutor.

20             MS. MOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21                           Cross-examination by Ms. Moe:

22        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Juric.  My name is Hedvig Moe, and I am an

23     attorney with the Prosecution.  And I will ask you some questions, and

24     some of them will be related to the documents that you now have in the

25     binder in front of you.  And I will direct you, in the same fashion as

Page 7375

 1     the Defence counsels, to the documents that I will ask you questions

 2     about.

 3             First of all, just a few introductory questions about Konjic

 4     municipality.  It's correct, isn't it, that Prozor, that's the

 5     neighbouring municipality to Konjic?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   And Gornji Vakuf is also a neighbouring municipality to Konjic?

 8        A.   A little further, not quite neighbouring, a little further off.

 9     Konjic municipality does not border on Vakuf, it's not neighbouring to

10     Vakuf.

11        Q.   Okay, thank you.  I would like you then to go to the first

12     document.  It's in the binder, and it's numbered P00154.  P0015 --

13        A.   I do apologise, but what was the number?

14        Q.   P00154.  Have you found it, Mr. Juric?  It's the second document

15     in the binder, and you'll first have the English version of the document

16     and then the B/C/S version.

17             MS. MOE:  And before I go into the document itself, a piece of

18     information that was kindly given to me by Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic.  In

19     B/C/S, the document has only one page.  In the English translation, there

20     is some additional information on page 2 that is not part of the B/C/S

21     original.  So we'll be working with one page only, the first page in the

22     English version, which corresponds to the B/C/S version.

23        Q.   Mr. Juric, if you look at the bottom of the document, you can see

24     that it's signed by Mate Boban, and up in the left-hand corner you see

25     that it's dated the 10th of April, 1992.  It's an order that goes to all

Page 7376

 1     municipal headquarters of the Croatian Defence Council.  Have you seen

 2     this document before?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   I would still like to ask you about the contents of the

 5     documents, and I'll read from the first paragraph.  It says "Order,"

 6     that's the headline, and it says the following:

 7             "Since the start of the aggression on the Croatian territory of

 8     Bosnia and Herzegovina, there has been inconsistency in the use of the

 9     name for the Croatian forces in Herceg-Bosna.  The former TO, serving the

10     Serbo-Chetnik armada, does not exist for Croats in Herceg-Bosna.

11     Therefore, during its meeting of 8th of April, 1992, the Presidency of

12     the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna reached the decision that the

13     supreme body of Croatian defence in Herceg-Bosna will be named the

14     Croatian Defence Council."

15             I'll skip the paragraph and keep reading:

16             "The Croatian people were abandoned, but they organised and

17     defended themselves.  They created their own defence and formed their own

18     defence forces.  The Presidency of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna

19     has decided that the Croatian Defence Council will have exclusive supreme

20     command of these forces.  This body is the only legal one and its name is

21     the only official one."

22             And then the last paragraph:

23             "All other military formations on the territory of the

24     Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna are either illegal or enemy

25     formations.  All other titles are no longer in official use."

Page 7377

 1             So what Boban is saying in this document is that the HVO is the

 2     only legal defence force in Herceg-Bosna.  Were you aware of that at this

 3     time in April 1992, that this was his view?

 4        A.   No.  I said that this is the first time that I see this document

 5     and the first time that I read through it.  And it says at the top here

 6     that it was self-organisation on the part of the units, and I explained

 7     the situation in our area of Konjic, how it happened there.  I said also

 8     that the HVO in Konjic was established at the beginning of June 1992.

 9        Q.   My question was to the HVO in Herceg-Bosna, as a whole, and the

10     fact that Boban, on behalf of the HVO, the Croatian Defence Council,

11     Boban says here that the HVO is the only legal defence force in

12     Herceg-Bosna.  Did you know that that was the HVO view -- the central HVO

13     view at the time?

14        A.   Your Honour, I've already said that I can just address military

15     matters.  Now, anything directly linked to politics, I really don't have

16     enough knowledge to be able to talk about that.

17        Q.   With all due respect, Mr. Juric, this seems to me to go to

18     military matters.  It refers to the HVO as a defence force, and I'm

19     asking you whether you knew that Mr. Boban and the central HVO considered

20     the HVO only to be the legal defence force -- the legal force in

21     Herceg-Bosna.

22        A.   I can't answer that question in any precise terms.

23        Q.   So does that mean that you never -- you didn't hear about that

24     from -- that that was the central HVO view at the time?

25             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, I'm going to object.  First, it's

Page 7378

 1     been asked and answered.  Second of all, based on his answer, it would

 2     appear for him to do anything other than speculate at this point in time,

 3     I don't see how he has the knowledge to answer that question, as phrased.

 4     And now she's turning his answer into a question, which I believe is

 5     unfair, because she's trying to make the gentleman appear as if he's

 6     either uncooperative or the question assumes facts which are not in

 7     evidence, in which case if he doesn't answer, then the question would

 8     appear to be giving an answer to which this gentleman cannot ascribe to.

 9             MS. MOE:  Mr. President, I'll move on to --

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Moe.

11             MS. MOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   A different document, Mr. Juric.  That would be P00 --

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.

14             Witness, that's all very well, I understand what you are saying.

15     You said that the HVO was formed in Konjic in June 1992.  This document

16     is dated the 10th of April, so it's quite possible that this document was

17     something you were not aware of.  However, in Konjic, were you never made

18     aware of a document of this kind?  Because a while ago you told us that

19     this was the first time you saw this document.  In the media, nobody said

20     anything about the fact that the HVO was the only armed force in 1992, in

21     the month of April?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in April 1992, there

23     was the Territorial Defence in Konjic municipality, manned jointly by the

24     Croats and Muslims, and I said that very clearly, that we acted together,

25     worked jointly, cooperated until June 1992.  That was 16 years ago, so I

Page 7379

 1     can't remember these documents now or discuss them, therefore.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Ms. Moe.

 3             MS. MOE:

 4        Q.   Let's move on to a different document, Mr. Juric, and this is

 5     P00195.  This is, as you can see in the upper left-hand corner, this is

 6     dated 8th of May, 1992.  It's the HVO General Staff, and it's signed by

 7     General Ante Roso.  And it says -- well, I'll ask you first:  Have you

 8     seen this document before, Witness?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   I still would like to ask you about the contents of the document,

11     and this is a military document, to put it that way, in the sense that

12     it's from the General Staff.  And it says:

13             "On the basis of until-now-reached agreements, and in the case of

14     need, I issue command ..."

15             In the territory of the HZ-HB, the only legal military units are

16     the units of the HVO.

17             And that would be the same item of the same order/command that we

18     just saw in the Boban order.  So, Mr. Juric, this is May 1992, and you

19     said earlier that you joined the HVO brigade in Konjic in September 1992,

20     so let's go to September 1992.

21             When you joined the HVO in September 1992, you were made aware

22     that your superiors, the General Staff's view, was that the HVO was the

23     only legal military force in Herceg-Bosna, weren't you?

24        A.   No, not with that position, that somebody informed me that the

25     HVO was the sole legal force in Bosnia-Herzegovina, not in those terms.

Page 7380

 1        Q.   In what terms, then?

 2        A.   Well, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were two active forces, the

 3     BH Army units and the HVO units.  Those were the legal forces.

 4        Q.   Well, it says here that the only legal force are the units of the

 5     HVO.  That's the General Staff view.  So who told you the opposite?

 6        A.   I'm just talking about what I knew, and what I saw, and what was

 7     going on in my town, in the place I was in, and that is Konjic.

 8        Q.   So you're saying that you were never made aware of the

 9     General Staff view, as set out here in the Roso command?

10        A.   No, I didn't, I wasn't.

11        Q.   I'll take that on board and I'll move to another document.  It's

12     P00200.  P00200 is an order from Tihomir Blaskic, and it's dated 11th of

13     May, 1992, as we can see in the left-hand upper corner.  And it says:

14             "On the basis of the orders received from the Main Headquarters

15     Confidential number 01-331/92 of 8th of May, 1992 ..."

16             And I'd like to stop there for a second, because if we go back to

17     P00195, that's the document we just looked at, we can see that up in the

18     left-hand corner there is a number that complies with what I just quoted

19     from the Blaskic order.  The number is, again, 01-331/92.  So Mr. Blaskic

20     is referring to the rules of order when he makes his order.  That's his

21     foundation, and Blaskic says, item number 1:

22             "The only legal military units in the area of Kiseljak

23     municipality are HVO units."

24             So, again, the language is that the only legal military units or

25     force is the HVO.  So this is Blaskic giving an order in Kiseljak

Page 7381

 1     municipality, and I put it to you:  Wasn't the same type of order made in

 2     Konjic municipality?  Weren't you, at your municipal level, told that the

 3     only legal military units are HVO units?

 4        A.   Your Honours, I never saw Mr. Blaskic.  I just heard that he was

 5     the commander, but throughout the war I never saw him.  And what happened

 6     in Kiseljak municipality, well, I know nothing about that, nor could I

 7     have any knowledge about that.  Now, the question that I'm being asked

 8     now, that this order came down to us, I really know nothing about that.

 9        Q.   That was not my question, Mr. Juric.  My question was, and I'm

10     quoting:

11             "Wasn't the same type of order made in Konjic municipality?

12     Weren't you, at your municipal level, told that the only legal military

13     units are HVO units?"

14        A.   During this period when this order was issued, at that point in

15     time I was a fighter, a combatant in the units, the joint units of the

16     BH Army and HVO, because we were still acting jointly.  So I was there as

17     a fighter, not as a commander or someone close to the commander, for me

18     to be acquainted with this order.  And the system of information at that

19     point in time wasn't functioning at all for me to be able to have any

20     knowledge about this.

21        Q.   Let's go to September 1992.

22             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't wish to

23     interrupt or to object before the witness gave his answer.  I allowed the

24     witness to answer so as not to be accused of helping him out.  But can we

25     go back to the previous question asked by my learned friend?  It has two

Page 7382

 1     questions within it.  The first question is asking the witness to make

 2     conclusions, whether he can make conclusions about whether Blaskic's

 3     order was applied in Konjic.  That's the first part of the question, and

 4     the second part is whether that was the situation in his municipality,

 5     that is to say, Konjic municipality.  And the witness has already

 6     answered.

 7             Now, my point is this:  This is a witness to fact.  He hasn't

 8     been called in here to make any conclusions.  He is a witness dealing

 9     with the facts.  He can say what he knows about, heard, possibly saw, and

10     so on, but not about Boban's orders in Kiseljak, did this happen in

11     Jablanica, and so on and so forth.  He can't do that.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Kovacic, the witness

13     is a military man.  At the time, he told us that he was serving in the

14     Territorial Defence.  Perhaps the HVO municipality [as interpreted] in

15     Konjic may have told them at the time, We have received a document from

16     Mate Boban that states this and that.  And he has said that he had not

17     heard about this.

18             Ms. Moe, the questions you put to him, well, that's all very

19     well, but it would have been much easier to conduct your investigation,

20     given the number of investigators you have, to look into the archives in

21     Konjic and check out Blaskic's order, and you could have checked this out

22     in the municipality of Konjic and we would not have wasted any time.  The

23     witness, at any rate, is not aware of any of this.

24             MS. MOE:  I'll move on, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Can I ask you, Witness, to go to document P10926, please, 10926.

Page 7383

 1     That will probably be towards the end of the binder.  10926, please.

 2             10926, that's an order again.  It's from the president of the

 3     Croatian Defence Council, Mate Boban, and it's dated 10th of June, 1992,

 4     and it says:

 5             "Pursuant to the Statutory Decision on the provisional

 6     establishment of the executive authority and administration on the

 7     territory of the HZ-HB of May 1992, I hereby order:  The establishment of

 8     the executive authority of the HVO in the Konjic municipality, pursuant

 9     to Article 7 --"

10             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise to my learned friend.

11     As far as I can see, the witness has not been able to locate the

12     document.  While you're reading, I can see him going through the binder,

13     and maybe the usher could help the witness.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Usher, please, could you go and

15     help the witness.  I think he's a little bit lost.  Even the Judges are

16     lost at times, all the more so a witness.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Presiding Judge.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Otherwise, Witness, you can

19     just look at the screen.  The document is displayed on the screen.

20             MS. MOE:

21        Q.   Again, Witness, this is from Mate Boban, and it's an order to

22     establish the executive authority of the HVO in the Konjic municipality

23     from June 1992.  And an executive authority of the HVO in Konjic was

24     established on Boban's orders, wasn't it?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7384

 1        Q.   When was that?

 2        A.   That was in early June.  There was a meeting.  Actually, my unit

 3     was established, Mr. Ivica Zinovic [phoen] and Dinko Zebic came and

 4     conveyed to us the order to establish the civilian authorities in the

 5     city of Konjic, and this gentleman, Ivan Zinovic [phoen] was appointed.

 6     Before that, he was [indiscernible] Pavic's [phoen] assistant in the

 7     Main Staff, and Dinko Zebic, as from then on, took over the position as

 8     his commander of the HVO military units, and I already said that

 9     yesterday.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Let's move to P10919, please.  That would be in front

11     of that document you just looked at.  P10919, please.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.  Usher,

13     could you sort out the microphones of the witness, please.

14             MS. MOE:

15        Q.   This is from the Konjic Municipality War Presidency, and if you

16     look at the end of the document, it's signed by coordinator of the Bosnia

17     and Herzegovina Army and the War Presidency of the Konjic Municipality,

18     Zejnil Delalic.  The document should be on the screen in front of you

19     also , Witness, and it says:

20             "Public announcement.  Regarding the announcement of the

21     Konjic HVO of 5th of July, 1992, filed under 02-944/92, we are making the

22     following announcement:

23             "The Konjic HVO has surfaced as a self-proclaimed organisation

24     allegedly in charge of supplying a complete range of products from

25     Croatia."

Page 7385

 1             And I'll skip four paragraphs:

 2             "The HVO, together with certain reactionary MUP forces or,

 3     rather, former members of the State Security, is trying to carry out a

 4     coup and overthrow all legal institutions of the Republic of Bosnia and

 5     Herzegovina."

 6             Witness, you said that the executive authority of the HVO had

 7     been established in Konjic, and I put it to you that on a local level

 8     also in Konjic, the Konjic HVO was trying to overthrow the legal

 9     institutions of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Konjic.  Isn't

10     that right, Mr. Juric?

11        A.   Your Honours, let me go back to what I've already said, and that

12     concerns the politics, and let me just put it simply.  What I can read

13     here is ridiculous.  I find it ridiculous because I know that during that

14     period of time the gentleman that worked in the Political Department of

15     the HVO did not follow such guide-lines, nor did they want to achieve

16     what I can read in here.  As far as I know, because I was not part of

17     this, I am not aware of any political decisions of that kind.

18        Q.   I'll go to another document, then, Mr. Juric, and this will be

19     P10918, please.  P10918 should be right in front of the one you just

20     looked at.

21             MS. MOE:  Could we have the assistance of the usher, please.

22        Q.   This is later.  This is dated, up in the left-hand corner,

23     8th of March, 1993, and it goes to the War Presidency of Konjic

24     Municipality.  And we see that it's signed by Peric, and it has the stamp

25     of the HDZ, Konjic Municipal Board.  And the subject is:  "Response to

Page 7386

 1     your letter dated 4th of February, 1993."

 2             "In respect to your letter," and there is a reference number and

 3     again the date, "concerning the functioning of the War Presidency and

 4     Executive Council in the Konjic Municipality ..."

 5             And I'll go to the paragraph that starts a little above the

 6     middle of the page:

 7             "The authorities in BH are not legitimate because they have

 8     discredited themselves with their passivity, ineffectiveness.  In

 9     compliance with the policy of the HDZ of BH, the HDZ of Konjic

10     Municipality has set up, at the municipal level, the transitional

11     executive authorities and administration in the form of the HVO/Croatian

12     Defence Council.  The HVO of Konjic Municipality functions as an integral

13     part of the HVO HZ-HB."

14             So I put it to you, Witness, that the HVO, as established in

15     Konjic municipality, was a parallel authority that functioned in addition

16     to the legitimate BH authorities.  Isn't that correct?

17        A.   I'm not denying that those authorities existed and were active.

18     However, I cannot agree that they were independent in what they did.

19     Everything was done in agreement.  And I emphasise that you are actually

20     talking about politics, and I don't know anything about these things.

21     Dragutin Peric was the president of the Croatian authorities in Konjic.

22     Please, if you can reduce your questions to the military matters.  When

23     it comes to the politics, could you please not ask me anything about

24     that, because I almost don't know anything about that.  I was interested

25     in politics in as much I needed to know just not to be a complete

Page 7387

 1     ignorant in that matter.

 2        Q.   Well, the two last documents I put to you, Witness, the

 3     foundation for my question was that you were in Konjic at the time, and

 4     you also referred to the meeting where the HVO, the executive authority,

 5     was established in Konjic in June 1992.  So I put it to you that based on

 6     the fact that you were there, you must have known these things, that

 7     there was a parallel HVO authority that was set up in addition to legal

 8     BiH civilian authorities.

 9        A.   Your Honours, I did say that a meeting was indeed held.  However,

10     I did not say that I was present at the meeting.

11        Q.   Well, I'll move on to military matters related concretely to you,

12     Mr. Juric, and I'll ask you to go to document P01637, please.  P01637,

13     please.

14             P01637, in the English translation, it says date illegible, up in

15     the left-hand corner, 1993, but in your B/C/S original, Witness, it says

16     "9th of March, 1993," doesn't it?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And we see that this is a command on the assignment to

19     Herceg Stjepan Brigade, Konjic, and it says that Dragan Juric, born

20     10th of July, 19 -- sorry, 1955, is appointed deputy commander, and it's

21     sent to the OZ Command, the unit, and the Personnel Administration, and

22     it's signed by Bruno Stojic.  And there is a stamp, and in the English

23     version it refers to the stamp being the Military Police Administration,

24     but again Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic informed me that there was no reference

25     to the Military Police Administration, it's the Department of Defence,

Page 7388

 1     which complies with Bruno Stojic signing it.

 2             So, Witness, you were appointed deputy commander by this

 3     document, weren't you?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  We're still in March 1993, and I'd like you to go to

 6     a document that you looked at with Ms. Nozica yesterday.  And it's

 7     number 2D00253, and it's in the binder that you have in front of you.

 8     2D00253.

 9             That's a document that was shown to you yesterday.  It's of 20th

10     of March, 1993.  It's a memo from an ABiH meeting.  And you said you

11     didn't know about a meeting yesterday, but nevertheless, you spoke about

12     the contents when Ms. Nozica asked you some questions, and I will do the

13     same.

14             This is going back to what the Presiding Judge Antonetti brought

15     up with you yesterday, and I'm trying to -- I'm going to ask some

16     follow-up questions to that, and I'll take you to the second -- or the

17     first paragraph after the subject, and this is an assessment of the

18     military and security situation, and I'll go to the last sentence of that

19     paragraph.  And it says:

20             "This deterioration," that would be the deterioration in the

21     relationship between the HVO and the state authorities of the BiH.  "This

22     deterioration is caused by the HVO's enforcement of a parallel

23     authority."

24             And I'm not going to go into that again, but I'll ask you the

25     following:  It says here that examples of HVO enforcement of a parallel

Page 7389

 1     authority are:  Enforcement of a taxation system.  And there was

 2     enforcement of a taxation system on behalf of the HVO, wasn't there?

 3        A.   I don't know.

 4        Q.   You don't know?

 5        A.   No, I don't.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Let's skip two items, and I'll ask you here:

 7             "All motor vehicles," still on the same page, Witness.

 8             "All the motor vehicles are provided with new license plates of

 9     the so-called Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, and flags are raised on

10     buildings not authorised to display national insignia."

11             It's true, isn't it, that motor vehicles were provided with new

12     license plates of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, isn't it?

13        A.   Yes, it's true.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I'm moving to page 2 of this memo.  It's page 2 both

15     in the English and the B/C/S version.  It's the second paragraph.  It

16     says:

17             "In view of the above," that is, the list of items considered by

18     the ABiH to be enforcement of parallel authority, in view of this "or the

19     Ruling by the Constitutional Court of the Republic of Bosnia and

20     Herzegovina on the cancellation of all the regulations covering the

21     establishment of the so-called Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna

22     (Official Gazette of the RBiH number 16/92), dated 18th of September,

23     1992 ..."

24             And my question goes to what I just read here, Mr. Juric.  There

25     was a reference here in the memo to a ruling by the Constitutional Court

Page 7390

 1     of Bosnia-Herzegovina that cancelled all the Herceg-Bosna regulations.

 2     Were you familiar with that Constitutional Court decision basically

 3     rendering Herceg-Bosna illegal?

 4        A.   No, I wasn't.

 5        Q.   You never heard about that?

 6        A.   No, never.

 7             MS. MOE:  Okay.

 8             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, based on that question, perhaps the

 9     witness could be asked:  Did the state government -- the Muslim

10     government, I should say, because it was the Izetbegovic government, did

11     it publicise that throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina, because now if you're

12     going to pose that question, then the next question should be -- or there

13     should be some sort of a factual predicate which actually it was widely

14     disseminated, assuming that the Constitutional Court was in fact properly

15     constituted, which we maintain it was not, it was no longer a

16     properly-functioning court, it was an Izetbegovic court.

17             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Karnavas, you are pleading and making

18     witness statements now, I think.

19             MR. KARNAVAS:  Well --

20             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  And I think it's for Ms. Moe to decide what

21     questions she wants to put to the witness.  The witness said he didn't

22     know about the decision of the Constitutional Court, so how would he know

23     about whether it was made widely public?

24             MR. KARNAVAS:  Well, that's the whole point.

25             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  That is asked and answered, implicitly,

Page 7391

 1     Mr. Karnavas.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let me cover this

 3     problem differently.

 4             In 1992, in Konjic, did you have radio or television?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Were you able to

 7     listen to Radio Sarajevo or Television Sarajevo?  Were you able to hear

 8     those two and watch?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So my question is

11     going to be very difficult.  If you asked me the same question, I would

12     not be able to answer it, because we are talking about facts that took

13     place 16 years ago.  But let me put this question, nevertheless:  At the

14     time, do you remember hearing radio announcers or TV speakers saying, Our

15     Constitutional Court just cancelled all decisions of the HVO?  Do you

16     know if you heard that on radio or on television in those days?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if my memory serves me

18     correctly, already in 1992, in March -- or, rather, in April of that

19     year, we had lost all the TV channels.  I remember that vaguely at the

20     moment.  I can't give you the exact date, but in any case, it was in the

21     first half of 1992 when we no longer had any TV reception, so we have to

22     exclude the possibility of anybody of us watching television.  And as for

23     radio programmes, I never followed those anyway.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MS. MOE:

Page 7392

 1        Q.   Still in the same document, Mr. Juric, I'll ask you to look at

 2     item 7.  It's numbered 7, and as we know, this is a 20th of March ABiH

 3     meeting, and it says:

 4             "The line of defence against the aggressor shall be

 5     fortified ..."

 6             And the aggressor in this sense, that's the Serbs, isn't it?

 7        A.   It should have been the Serbs.  However, there's a comma which

 8     means a lot here.

 9        Q.   Well, when the ABiH makes reference to the aggressor, that's the

10     VRS, isn't it?

11        A.   Please, could you read the sentence to the end?  Maybe then I

12     will be able to tell you something about it.

13        Q.   Well, let me ask you more generally.  The aggressor, that's the

14     VRS, isn't it, and not necessarily related to this document, but in

15     general, the ABiH at this time?

16        A.   Yes.  The Army of Republika Srpska was the aggressor.  However,

17     Jablanica, Kute, Here, and Scipe are mentioned here as the direction,

18     connected the Army of BiH with the neighbouring villages.  I'm confused.

19     Maybe the HVO is meant as the aggressor, because at that meeting we were

20     no longer considered the aggressor.

21        Q.   I'll move on, Mr. Juric, and this is a document -- the next

22     document is P01866.  01866.  This is a record of the Operational Zone

23     South-Eastern Herzegovina, a commanders meeting with the commanders of

24     the immediately-subordinated units, and assistant commanders, and it's

25     dated 13th of April, 1993.  You were present here, weren't you?

Page 7393

 1        A.   No, I was not.

 2        Q.   The reason I'm asking you directly is that it says here -- well,

 3     the second paragraph:

 4             "Absent from the meeting were the commander of the 1st HVO

 5     Knez Domagoj Brigade, the commander of the Konjic Herceg Stjepan Brigade,

 6     and the commander of the Tank Battalion."

 7             So it says that your commander wasn't present.  It also said, in

 8     the introduction, that it was a meeting for assistant commanders, and as

 9     we established previously, at this time you were assistant commander of

10     the Herceg Stjepan Brigade.  Doesn't that indicate that you were present,

11     Mr. Juric?

12        A.   I was not an assistant.  I was a deputy.  The brigade commander

13     had six of his assistants for intelligence, for security, for logistics,

14     for establishment and personnel, and an assistant for IPD.  I was a

15     deputy.

16        Q.   So you're saying you weren't present, but I'll ask you about the

17     contents of the document and see if these are issues that you were told

18     about subsequent to the meeting.  It says --

19             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise.  The

20     question hasn't been put, so I would like to intervene.

21             If it says in the record that he was not a commander, and the

22     witness says that it wasn't him, I don't know what would be the basis for

23     a further question, and how could the witness have heard anything about

24     the minutes?  I believe that the witness is expected to speculate from

25     now on.  The question hasn't been put.  That's why I've intervened.

Page 7394

 1     Otherwise, I wouldn't have.

 2             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  It's been a long time since

 3     I've been on my feet, but I'm going to intervene in this situation, with

 4     apologies to my good colleague.

 5             Your Honour, this is an absurd objection.  We've heard over the

 6     last two days, last day and a half, repeated questions to this effect,

 7     asking the witness to speculate about all sorts of things where he was

 8     not physically present.  Indeed, virtually the entire Petkovic so-called

 9     cross-examination, which in the Prosecution's continuing view wasn't

10     cross-examination at all, it was simply a friendly examination, was one

11     speculative question after another about things where the witness was not

12     presently there, but he was only too happy -- the witness was only too

13     happy to give answer after answer after answer to the leading questions

14     put by the Defence counsel.  So for this objection to be raised now is

15     completely inconsistent with the last day and a half of practice.

16             Thank you.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please go on, Madam Prosecutor.

18     You may continue on this topic.  The witness will maybe remember

19     something.  Maybe he'll tell you that he was not present at the meeting

20     at all, but you may put your questions.

21             MS. MOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  My questions go to the

22     witness's knowledge of the contents of the document.  That's what I would

23     like to ask him about.

24        Q.   And it says here, that's the end of the paragraph that I was

25     reading from, just above item 1:

Page 7395

 1             "... the following conclusions were reached ..."

 2             And number 1:

 3             "The BH Army has succeeded in carrying out most of the plans from

 4     record number strictly confidential 16-8/08-62/93 of 20th of March,

 5     1993 ..."

 6             And I'll stop there for a second, because if we go back to

 7     2D00253, which is the document we just looked at, that document, the ABiH

 8     memo, has this same reference number, 16-8/08-62/93.  So this meeting of

 9     the operational zone commanders and assistant commanders, including your

10     unit, refers to this memo.  In other words, the HVO was in possession of

11     the ABiH memo from the 20th of March, 1993, wasn't it?

12        A.   You mean in Mostar?  As far as I can see, the meeting was in

13     Mostar.  That's where it was held.

14        Q.   That wasn't my question, Mr. Juric.  As I said, this is a meeting

15     of the operational zone, and there's a reference to the Herceg Stjepan

16     Brigade, the commander not being present.  Let me put it this way:  You,

17     your brigade, had knowledge of this 20th of March ABiH memo, didn't you?

18        A.   Well, only the operative zone could have had knowledge of that,

19     but as my commander wasn't present at the meeting, then most probably he

20     couldn't have been informed and have knowledge of what is said here, with

21     all the details and the elements from the meeting held on the 20th of

22     March.

23        Q.   But given that this was -- presumably this was important

24     information, wouldn't your brigade be informed about it from your

25     superiors, the operational zone?

Page 7396

 1             MR. KOVACIC:  Your Honour, this question is -- this question is

 2     directly asking for speculation.  It should be rephrased.  He might be

 3     asked whether anything like that was later received by the brigade, but

 4     not, Wouldn't it be possible, blah-blah.  It is speculation, pure and

 5     simple.

 6             MS. MOE:  If I may, Mr. --

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Moe, please move on and go

 8     straight to the point, because I really have trouble understanding what

 9     is it you want to highlight.

10             MS. MOE:

11        Q.   Let me ask you more precisely, Witness.  It says here, right

12     above the item number 1, that reports from the Konjic and Jablanica areas

13     were read out.  Therefore, it seems that at this meeting, reports from

14     the Konjic and Jablanica areas were received.  Then my question is:

15     Didn't this information of the 20th of March memo go in the other

16     direction, that is, from the operational zone to the Konjic HVO?

17             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  I apologise again for

18     intervening.  There's communications coming from the accused in the

19     Croatian language that the witness can presumably hear.  It's completely

20     inappropriate.  The Chamber should put a stop to it immediately, please.

21             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

22     let me just remind you of one thing, and that is that during my

23     cross-examination, we read reports from Konjic for the 13th of April,

24     1993, and so therefore the reports mentioned here, which my learned

25     friend has just referred to, is precisely what we saw a moment ago.  So

Page 7397

 1     I think that will help in understanding the issue better.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Witness.  We're

 3     wasting a lot of time on this question, but there is something that's

 4     still bothering me.

 5             Mr. Lasic, who is the commander of this zone, he organises a

 6     meeting, and at the meeting various reports are raised, reports from the

 7     Konjic area, for instance.  I would like to know how is it that your

 8     commander, or his assistant, were not present at the meeting?  Is there

 9     an explanation for this or not?  I can understand that you were not

10     there.  I believe you, that you were not there.  I can understand that.

11     Militarily speaking, I cannot understand it when it's the commander of

12     the operational zone who organised this meeting.  So shouldn't he have

13     called commanders of his operational zones?  Maybe the commander is

14     there, maybe he's ill, or at least his assistant?  But you're telling us,

15     No, we were not there.  In fact, your commander, was he there or was he

16     not there?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, he wasn't present

18     at the meeting.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, he wasn't there,

20     fine, because he was absent.  And you weren't there either?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who drafted the report on the

23     situation in Konjic then?  Had there been any written reports prior to

24     that?  In that case, Lasic, Miljenko, said, We have received a report.

25     Could things have happened this way?

Page 7398

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd just like to

 2     clarify a point, with your permission.  The commander at this time spent,

 3     in the village of Kostajnica, in Klisa, as we've already said, spent

 4     time, and the 13th and 14th was when the all-out offensive was launched

 5     against the HVO in Konjic.  Now, where the commander was, the brigade

 6     commander was, he had packet communications, so that the IPD assistant

 7     who at that time, and I remember this vaguely, it is possible that he was

 8     with him there and that he sent out this report, but I can't say that

 9     with any certainty.  It's just something I seem to vaguely remember when

10     I go back to these events in my head.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Moe, please proceed.

12             MS. MOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'm moving on.

13        Q.   Mr. Juric, you've talked extensively about what happened in the

14     Konjic-Jablanica area in late March and April 1993, and you've talked

15     about Muslim or ABiH acts, and I put it to you:  Isn't it true that what

16     the Muslims did at the time was, in fact, provoked by the Croats, by the

17     HVO?

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat his answer, please.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was just speaking about Konjic.

20     I didn't mention Jablanica at all, because I have no knowledge about

21     Jablanica, about that period, March and April, and for as long as I was

22     under an encirclement.

23             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but we had an

24     intervention there from the interpreter that the first part of the

25     witness's answer wasn't recorded, just the second part relating to

Page 7399

 1     Konjic.  But before that, he said that he is quite certain that the HVO

 2     in Konjic did not attack the BH Army, and he's 100 per cent certain of

 3     that.  That's what he said, 100 per cent, the HVO did not attack the

 4     BH Army.  And that wasn't recorded, but the witness can repeat his

 5     answer, because we see the interpreter's intervention on the transcript.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, do you agree with the

 7     fact that you said, with 100 per cent certainty, that there had been no

 8     attack on Konjic against the HVO?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The HVO did not attack the BH Army.

10     That is 100 per cent correct.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Moe, please proceed.

12             MS. MOE:

13        Q.   Well, firstly, Witness, I clearly remember that you'd been

14     talking about what happened in the Jablanica area when you were

15     questioned by Ms. Alaburic and Ms. Nozica.  Isn't that correct?  And this

16     goes to March and April 1993.

17             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise.  If my learned friend

18     said that I asked him about Jablanica, she can refer to the transcript,

19     because I didn't ask a single question linked to Jablanica.  So she can

20     check the transcript to see where that was.

21             MS. MOE:

22        Q.   Well, let's go with Ms. Alaburic, then.  You did talk about

23     Jablanica, didn't you, Witness, when you were questioned by Ms. Alaburic?

24             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd just like to

25     remind you that Doljani were mentioned, and the witness said he didn't

Page 7400

 1     know what had happened in the village of Doljani.

 2             MS. MOE:  I'll move on, that is, I will go back to my original --

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

 4             MS. MOE:  -- question.

 5        Q.   My question was not what you answered.  My question was:  I put

 6     it to you, isn't it true that what the Muslims were doing in

 7     March/April 1993, let's say in the Konjic area, that that was provoked by

 8     the Croats, by the HVO?

 9        A.   I state once again, and let me repeat that, that the HVO from

10     Konjic, that wasn't provoked.  I don't know what Croats you're referring

11     to, but the Croats from the HVO in Konjic did not provoke that.

12        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to a document.  That's P01798, please.  Yeah, I

13     apologise, it's a loose exhibit.  Thank you, Judge Trechsel.

14             This is the minutes of the 34th session of the HVO.  It's held on

15     the 3rd of April, 1993.  As to participants, we can see that

16     Jadranko Prlic, Mate Boban and Bruno Stojic were present, among others.

17     And I assume you haven't seen this document before, Witness, but I would

18     still ask you some question to the contents of the document.  It says

19     that the agenda of the meeting is:  "Discussion of the documents of the

20     Vance-Owen Peace Plan."  And if we go to page 2 of the document, the

21     penultimate paragraph, it says that:

22             "Until the Republic is fully demilitarised, the armed forces will

23     be organised in accordance with the relevant documents of the Vance-Owen

24     Peace Plan, and in the accordance with the joint statement issued after

25     the agreement of Mr. Mate Boban and Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, who led the

Page 7401

 1     delegations of Croats and Muslims at the peace talks.  The statement was

 2     signed by Mr. Mate Boban, and its integral text reads as follows:"

 3             And then I'll go to -- I'll skip some paragraphs and I'll go to

 4     page 3.  And at page 3, the last paragraph, it says:

 5             "At this meeting, the HVO HZ-HB adopted the position that if the

 6     aforementioned statement is not signed by the leaders of the Muslim

 7     delegations in provinces numbers 3, 8 and 10, then the basic premises in

 8     the peace plan, which states that all ethnic armed forces have to

 9     withdraw to their domicile provinces, should apply."

10             And then continued from there on page 4:

11             "If the joint statement is not implemented, the appropriate

12     military and other authorities of the HVO HZ-HB shall implement this

13     provision of the basic document of the peace plan in regions numbers 3, 8

14     and 10."

15             You knew about this, Witness, didn't you, that the HVO decided to

16     unilaterally implement the Vance-Owen Peace Plan, including in Konjic,

17     didn't you?

18        A.   At the beginning, you said straight away, and that is correct,

19     that I didn't know about this meeting at all.  And as for the

20     Vance-Owen Plan, I saw it in the papers.  It appeared in the press.  But

21     as to its details and all the rest of it, I really can't say anything

22     about it.

23        Q.   Let's --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Moe, I'm a little bit

25     surprised.  You know that the Bench controls the cross-examination of

Page 7402

 1     witnesses, and you see whether a witness is able to answer a question or

 2     not.  The Vance-Owen Plan question is a question which has been addressed

 3     many a time by prominent people, Mr. Okun, ambassadors, and so on and so

 4     forth, and all these questions have been raised already, and you're

 5     putting these questions again in the presence of someone who told us he

 6     knows nothing about political issues and he knows nothing about the

 7     Vance-Owen Plan, which he read about in the press, so you're wasting your

 8     time.  We are wasting our time, and you are wasting your time.

 9             So you may reflect on this, and you may proceed, since you have

10     two hours.

11             MS. MOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'll try to take it down to

12     the municipal level, and the witness was in Konjic at this time, in one

13     of the municipalities involved.

14        Q.   So I'd like to go to page 5 of this same document, please.  And

15     the first paragraph here in the English version, it says:

16             "It was also agreed at the meeting that in the next couple of

17     days, members of the HVO HZ-HB should visit all municipalities in the

18     provinces numbers 3, 8 and 10 in order to explain to the authorities the

19     essence of the Vance-Owen documents and the conclusions of this meeting."

20             So I put it to you, Witness, that Konjic was one of these

21     municipalities, and members of the HVO HZ-HB were to visit the

22     municipalities to inform on the conclusions of the meeting.  You were

23     informed of these conclusions, weren't you?

24        A.   Well, I have to laugh because I'm confronted with all these

25     difficulties.  I don't know about this.  I know that through the

Page 7403

 1     Vance-Owen Plan, there was Konjic somewhere in there.  What number, I

 2     don't know.  And looking at this, well, I find myself in dire straits.

 3     Who received this, where this was discussed, I really can't say.  I have

 4     absolutely nothing to do with any of this.

 5        Q.   Okay, excuse me.  I'll move on to a different topic.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, irrespective of the

 7     question that has been put to you, as far as you remember, no one came

 8     from elsewhere to your municipality to discuss or to talk to the people

 9     and say, well, there is this plan and this is what is going to happen?

10     People weren't gathered to discuss this?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's not what I'm

12     saying, 100 per cent.  I don't say 100 per cent that nobody came, but I

13     wasn't aware of that, nor do I know about it, but I'm not claiming that

14     nobody came.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, do you think that the

16     second -- you were assistant commander of the brigade, so you were a

17     high-ranking military.  You were the second man in the command.  Is it

18     possible that you were not made aware of the fact that a prominent figure

19     from the HVO was coming to this town to spread the good news?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was a reserve

21     captain first class in the former JNA and I'm familiar with the military

22     hierarchy and the military matters.  From the military aspect, a

23     commander had to be present at all the meetings, and his assistants for

24     the IPD, and they are the ones to inform us about the situation.  And

25     since that unit was established in the war and the situation was as it

Page 7404

 1     was, it was far -- or far removed from all things military or things as

 2     perceived in military terms.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Maybe I can just add a question.

 5             Mr. Juric, it seems that your attitude was -- or what you tell us

 6     now is that as a military high officer, almost commander, next to the

 7     commander, politics were none of your business.  Is that what you are --

 8     what your attitude was?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said that politicians

10     run politics and commanders run a military.  In military circles, there

11     were people who were designated to deal with politics, and they were

12     assistants for information and political activities.

13             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  Ms. Moe.

14             MS. MOE:

15        Q.   Following on from that, Mr. Juric, I put it to you that you were

16     much more involved and had much more knowledge of both political and

17     military issues of the HVO and the HZ-HB than you are now telling us,

18     weren't you?

19        A.   No, you're not right.

20        Q.   I'll go into some documents on this.

21             Can we please go to P10927, P10927.  P10927, if you look at the

22     end of the document, it says that it's from Brigade Deputy Commander

23     Dragan Juric.  And if you go to the upper left-hand corner of the

24     document, you see that it's dated the 20th of May, 1993.  And that would

25     be when you were in the area of the three villages that you mentioned,

Page 7405

 1     wouldn't it?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And it says -- well, it says, on the right-hand side, that it

 4     goes to the Main Staff, Mostar.  It goes to the Operational Zone Command

 5     in Tomislavgrad and the Rama Brigade Command, to Zeljko Siljeg in person,

 6     Prozor, and it says "Report from Konjic":

 7             "During the day, we received two reports and were asked to

 8     forward them to you."

 9             Where were these reports from?

10        A.   This does not feature my signature.  It says "Deputy commander of

11     the brigade."  Anybody could have put that, and this is not a valid

12     document.

13             Second of all, from the area where I was, not even a bird could

14     carry a document of this sort, so I did not go on reading the complete

15     article that has been written.  If I managed to read it, then I will

16     possibly be able to tell you something more about it.  However, my

17     opinion is that this was sent from the office of the brigade commander in

18     Klis, which had a package communication and he could send it that way.

19             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Maybe I can be of

20     assistance.

21             Maybe the witness could be shown the heading of the document,

22     which shows where the document was sent from.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it says "Kostajnica."  That's

24     where the commander was.  As I've already told you, he had a package

25     communication system, and through that this could be sent.  From the area

Page 7406

 1     where I was, I could not -- at that moment, I could not communicate with

 2     anybody.  I did not have any elements that would allow me to send

 3     something of this kind.

 4             MS. MOE:

 5        Q.   But if we look at the document, Mr. Juric, and that would be the

 6     original B/C/S version, it does have your name below the text, and it

 7     does have a stamp that says that it was received at the Main Staff -- the

 8     General Staff.  And this would be packet communication, wouldn't it?

 9     That's why there is no signature underneath?

10             Can I have an answer, Mr. Juric?

11        A.   Please repeat the question.

12        Q.   This was packet communication, wasn't it?  That's why there is no

13     signature underneath?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Are you challenging the authenticity of this document?  Are you

16     saying that it's not from you?

17        A.   I did not write this document.

18        Q.   But your name is underneath it, isn't it?

19        A.   The name's there, but I did not write the document, nor could I

20     have.  You see where the document was written.  It says so in the heading

21     "Kostajnica, 25th of March, 1993, at 2200 hours."

22        Q.   I do believe it should be the 20th of May --

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, one moment, please.  I

24     assume that in the Stjepan Herceg Brigade, there were people that were

25     drafting text, intellectuals or law students.  You were on the

Page 7407

 1     front-line.  You had your weapon and your feet in the mud, so I'm sure

 2     you had other things to do.  Since this is packet communication that

 3     comes from Kostajnica, does this mean that there's an officer in charge,

 4     or a soldier who is able to read and write, who would have drafted this

 5     on the basis of documents and after having listened to the radio, and

 6     then he prepares his report of a political nature and sends it on to the

 7     authorities, and he puts your name, since you were the second in command?

 8     He could have also written in there the name of the commander.  It so

 9     happens that you were the second in command and that your name is there;

10     is that why you tell us today that you did not prepare this document?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is correct that I

12     did not draft the document, and it is also correct that in the village of

13     Kostajnica, where the brigade commander was, that his assistant for IPD

14     was also there with him.  And judging by the wording of the document, I

15     can only assume that this was drafted by the assistant for information

16     and political activities in the brigade, in the brigade, who was together

17     with the commander in Kostajnica, where the packet communication system

18     was, and that was the one that was used to send the document to the

19     operations zone and to the Main Staff.

20             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may be of

21     assistance.  The witness has said it.  Can you ask him where he was

22     physically at the time?  He did say that in his examination-in-chief.  He

23     said that physically he wasn't there.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A while ago, I said you had

25     your feet in the mud.  Where were you, exactly?  How far from Kostajnica

Page 7408

 1     were you?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Almost 30 kilometres away.  That's

 3     the distance between Konjic and Kostajnica, 30 kilometres.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In which town?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Turije --

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Turije.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- Zabrdje, Zaslivlje, that's the

 8     area.

 9             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, I

10     would like to say just one sentence that might help better understanding.

11             If you remember the map that I showed the witness, we saw two

12     enclaves.  One enclave was Kostajnica, and the other one was Turije

13     village, and the witness says that he was there.  So the witness was

14     never in the place where the document was issued.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

16             Ms. Moe, we will have a break now, a 20-minute break, since it is

17     time to have a break and think about all this.  The witness was not

18     there.  He was 30 kilometres away.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note:  Please replace that there

20     had been an attack on Konjic against the HVO by that there had been an

21     attack on Konjic by the HVO.  Thank you.

22                           --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The hearing is

25     resumed.

Page 7409

 1             With respect to the time left, you still have 54 minutes.  I hope

 2     that there won't be any objection, unless Ms. Nozica has additional

 3     questions, but I hope that we'll be able to finish the testimony of this

 4     witness today.

 5             Ms. Prosecutor.

 6             MS. MOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   I have one more question to the document that we looked at before

 8     the break, Mr. Juric.  That's P10927, which you talked about, and this

 9     question goes to the contents of the document.  And I read out to you a

10     while ago from the start of the document.  During the day, you received

11     two reports and were asked to forward them to you, and then there are

12     quotation marks, and the next paragraph should go to the contents of that

13     first report, and I'll read it out:

14             "Today, the Chief of Staff of the so-called ABiH,

15     Sefer Halilovic, broadcast the public threat over Muslim Radio Sarajevo

16     to the HVO of Konjic and the HVO of Jablanica, and all the Croatian

17     people in Konjic and Jablanica.  As he said, unless the HVO stops with

18     persecutions in Mostar, it will cease to exist in Konjic and Jablanica.

19     Since the HVO in these areas is only defending the survival of the

20     Croatian people, who are threatened by an invasion of Islamic

21     fundamentalism, the intentions of the military junta from Sarajevo are

22     clear.  What is involved is actually ethnic cleansing of the non-Muslim

23     population from areas that belong to the Croats under the

24     Vance-Owen Plan."

25             And I put it to you, Witness, that the Vance-Owen Plan and the

Page 7410

 1     areas that belong to the Croats, these were issues that were discussed

 2     amongst you, weren't it?

 3        A.   As regards the Vance-Owen Plan, in military terms, we did not

 4     ascribe it a lot of significance.  We did not consider that issue at our

 5     briefings.  We never debated that.  It was a political issue, and there

 6     are others who discussed this.  And as for what you have just read out, I

 7     did not write this.  Even if I had, I would not have put the so-called

 8     BiH Army and some other things, because the BiH Army was also a regular

 9     army, as the HVO was, at least for me.

10        Q.   I'll move on, Mr. Juric.  Can you please go to document P10911,

11     P10911.  This is a document -- an order that's dated 20th of May, 1993,

12     and we see that it's signed by you, Herceg Stjepan Brigade Deputy

13     Commander Dragan Juric, and it's sent to, we can see from the left-hand

14     side lower corner, Republika Srpska Army Command and Ljubinje commander,

15     and it says:

16             "On the basis of earlier talks between representatives of the

17     Republika Srpska Army and the Herceg Stjepan Brigade Command, I issue

18     this order:

19             "1.  All the contacts between the mentioned subjects shall be

20     realised by persons authorised for that purpose by the superior commands.

21             "2.  The brigade's deputy commander, the 2nd Battalion commander,

22     and the commander of the Ljubinje post, are the sole persons at the post

23     authorised to plan and coordinate the joint operations and activities

24     being planned in that regard."

25             And, Mr. Juric, these plans regarding coordination of joint

Page 7411

 1     operations and activities, I put it to you that those were joint plans by

 2     the HVO and the VRS to fight the Muslims.  Isn't that right?

 3        A.   We never worked together against the BiH Army, not for a single

 4     moment.  We were not engaged in any military operations together with the

 5     VRS.

 6        Q.   But this goes to the joint -- these refer -- this document refers

 7     to joint operations, and it goes to the Republika Srpska Command.  Are

 8     you saying these are not references to joint VRS and HVO operations?

 9        A.   The plateau that is referred to in this document, the Ljubinje

10     Mountain Plateau, before the conflict between us and BiH Army, the

11     Republika Srpska had its positions there.  It says here that with regard

12     to any conversations and agreements, only the person mentioned herein can

13     maintain contacts with Republika Srpska in that area.  There were some

14     other persons who appeared and wanted to do things that we were not aware

15     of, and that's why this order had been issued.

16        Q.   Based on your answer, that the HVO never worked together against

17     the BiH Army with the VRS, I'd like you to go to P02910.

18             P02910, that's a document from Siljeg, and it's dated the

19     22nd of June, 1993, and it goes to the Herceg Stjepan Brigade,

20     Kostajnica.  It should be on your screen as well, Witness.  It's a short

21     document.  It's from Siljeg.  It's dated 27th -- sorry, 22nd of June,

22     1993, and it goes to the Herceg Stjepan Brigade, Kostajnica, and it says:

23             "Immediately request XY to open fire on Konjic and Celebici at

24     4.30 hours."

25             And XY, that refers to the VRS, doesn't it?

Page 7412

 1        A.   I would not know anything about this intelligence.  I don't know.

 2     The XY and all those things, I don't know anything about that.  If you

 3     have any further questions, I'm prepared to answer.  This is an order

 4     that I was not in a position to receive.  I believe that this was sent to

 5     the commander of the brigade in Kostajnica, if it was.  It was not sent

 6     to me.  I did not have anything to do with anybody from that area.

 7        Q.   So you're saying that you don't know what the XY means?

 8        A.   No, I don't, I'm sure I don't.

 9        Q.   But this goes to --

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

11     Witness, a very brief question.

12             To go back to the previous document, it is handwritten by

13     yourself.  You sent this document to the Republika Srpska.  I am a bit

14     baffled.  Serbs are your enemies.  You sent yourself document to the

15     enemy.  Did you receive orders to that effect or was it to your own

16     initiative that you did this?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at that moment we were

18     encircled.  We were effectively the front-line of the Republika Srpska

19     Army facing the BiH Army.  We were the living shield -- human shield,

20     both the civilians and the troops.  I could not receive orders from

21     anywhere.  I did what I could in order to save the civilian population

22     that was in the area, i.e., to protect all the others who were in the

23     area.

24             MS. MOE:

25        Q.   Going back to the document --

Page 7413

 1             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me.  I would still like to go back to

 2     that order, the previous one which you have signed, and I still have not

 3     understood what the joint operations refer to.  What kind of joint

 4     operations do you refer to?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were individuals there who

 6     insisted on joint operations, and I emphasised that the joint operations

 7     could not be carried out before this was approved by either myself or the

 8     commander of the position in Ljubinje.  There had been attempts for

 9     people to influence the whole situation and to have joint operations

10     carried out, unbeknownst to me, in the area.

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Well, that is quite interesting, perhaps.  It

12     doesn't answer my question.  You speak about joint operations.  What do

13     you have in mind?  Not other people speaking about this or that.  You

14     have in mind joint operations, and only very limited persons, including

15     yourself, are authorised to negotiate these joint operations.  What

16     operations?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Through the Serb side, we

18     transported civilians from the area in six convoys, and that was our

19     cooperation with the Serbian Army.  In that area, there were

20     300 nationals of Serb origin that we had been looking after at the

21     gravest of moments.

22             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Well, I cannot check on the original language.

23     It's not something that an English speaker would think of when he hears

24     about joint operations, but I see I must leave it at that.

25             Ms. Moe.

Page 7414

 1             MS. MOE:

 2        Q.   Going back to the document referring to XY, Mr. Juric, P02910,

 3     it's going to be on the screen in a short while.  You said you didn't

 4     know what the XY referred to, but we see that Siljeg is sending this

 5     document to the Herceg Stjepan Brigade, Kostajnica, so presumably he

 6     expected the commander who received it, or the person who received it in

 7     the brigade, to know what XY refers to.  But you're saying that you did

 8     not know?

 9        A.   Your Honours, I was not in a position to know whether the

10     commander knew the code or not.  He could not inform me about the code.

11     The only communication that we had with the commander in Kostajnica was

12     the small Motorola, which is an open communication line, and you could

13     not use it to convey any military information or converse openly, because

14     anybody could have tapped into any such conversation.

15        Q.   So you had communication with Kostajnica, then?

16        A.   I just said that it was the Motorola, the radio sets that were

17     similar to a mobile phone.

18        Q.   I'll move on, Mr. Juric.

19             Yesterday, you said, when being examined by Ms. Nozica, that

20     Konjic municipality had a Muslim majority before the war of 55 per cent;

21     right?

22        A.   Yes, 54 or 55 per cent is correct.

23        Q.   And you were asked by Judge Antonetti about the notions of

24     Greater Croatia, in accordance with a document, and you said that Konjic

25     had a Muslim majority and could therefore not be part of Greater Croatia.

Page 7415

 1     And I'll quote from the transcript from yesterday.  You won't have it,

 2     but just listen to what I'm saying, repeating what you stated yesterday.

 3     It's page 57, line 16:

 4             "Well, this kind of thing couldn't have been discussed in Konjic,

 5     because the ratio between Muslims and Croats, in terms of numbers of

 6     inhabitants, there were far fewer Croats, perhaps just a third or even

 7     less than a third, so the Croats couldn't have accomplished what you've

 8     just said, this greater Croatian state or whatever you just said."

 9             That's what you stated, wasn't it?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   I'd like to show you some maps, and they are in the loose

12     exhibits that should be -- should have been given to you earlier today.

13             Maybe we can have the assistance of the usher.  It's, first,

14     P09276, please, and that would be map 9.  That's the last map that you

15     have, Mr. Juric, in that little folder.

16             If you have a look at the map, please, you can see that this goes

17     to the ethnic composition of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1991, and you can

18     see Konjic here, can't you?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And it confirms what you said, that that's one of the

21     municipalities with an absolute Muslim majority; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Please go to map 5.  That would be the page prior to the one that

24     you're looking at now.

25             I still don't appreciate comments from the accused,

Page 7416

 1     Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No comments, please.

 3             MS. MOE:

 4        Q.   That's a map that shows -- that says the Banovina, 1939, showing

 5     BiH municipalities, and we can see that Konjic is part of the Banovina of

 6     1939.  So you knew about that, didn't you, the Croatian Banovina and the

 7     fact that Konjic was included in the Croatian Banovina?

 8        A.   I can't confirm this with any degree of certainty.  While I went

 9     to school, we did not learn about Banovina in history classes.  To be

10     honest, I was never much interested in knowing anything about the

11     boundaries of the state at this time.  Now I can see this - I'm looking

12     at the map - I've never seen it before.

13        Q.   But were you familiar with the fact that Konjic was part of the

14     Croatian Banovina prior to seeing this map right now?  You were, weren't

15     you?

16             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.  I'm not

17     intervening very willingly, especially in view of your intervention,

18     Your Honour.  The witness has already answered and said that he did not

19     know of that before.  Let's look at, together, the witness's answer.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  In fact, he just said

21     that he was not taught at school about this, and he just told you also

22     that he saw this map for the first time now.  But of course you can ask

23     him if he's ever heard of it before.

24             MS. MOE:  Yes, that was my question.

25        Q.   Before seeing this map here, Mr. Juric, were you familiar with

Page 7417

 1     the fact that Konjic was part of the Croatian Banovina?

 2             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise.

 3     Perhaps it would be of assistance to us if we were to ask the witness

 4     whether he knows what Banovina Hrvatska or Croatian Banovina, in fact, is

 5     and means.

 6             MS. MOE:  I would like to put the question as I put it.

 7        Q.   Prior to seeing this map, Witness, were you familiar with Konjic

 8     being part of the Croatian Banovina?

 9        A.   In my family, where I lived, and the circle of people that I

10     moved around in, we never discussed these banovinas, nor did I know about

11     them, and especially not whether Konjic [Realtime transcript read in

12     error "Croatia"] was part of the Croatian Banovina or not, because in the

13     period that I lived in, this was not a subject that was discussed at all.

14        Q.   Let me show you a different map.  This is map --

15             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Just a correction.  Line 23 on the

16     previous page, the witness said whether Konjic was in the Banovina, and

17     it was recorded whether Croatia was in the Banovina.

18             MR. KARNAVAS:  And, Your Honours, before we go into the maps,

19     because we're going to be spending some time on maps that we already have

20     seen, the gentleman, based on what he's already presented, I don't see

21     how much more value to the Trial Chamber will be to show the maps that

22     are in evidence, that the trial already knows, based on the answers that

23     he's given.  I just mention this in order to save time.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's try to save

25     time, Ms. Moe.

Page 7418

 1             MS. MOE:  I'll move on to map number 3.

 2        Q.   That would be the first map in that little bundle that you have,

 3     Mr. Juric.

 4        A.   I'm not receiving any interpretation.

 5        Q.   Can you hear me now?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   This is a map that shows the Croatian Communities of Herceg-Bosna

 8     and Bosanska Posavina 1991, and this map shows that Konjic was part of

 9     Herceg-Bosna, doesn't it?

10             MR. KARNAVAS:  I object to the form of the question.  Now she's

11     testifying.  The gentleman has indicated that he doesn't know, first of

12     all, and she's testifying, based on that question.  How do we know, from

13     her representations, that this map is actually accurate?  That's my whole

14     point of my objection earlier, and I will be doing this on every map, on

15     every question.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

17             Ms. Moe, you can tell the witness the following:  "I'm showing

18     you a map.  What can you tell me about this map?", for instance.

19             MS. MOE:

20        Q.   Well, I'll go back to my starting point.  You see that this is a

21     map, right, Witness, and it says that the Croatian Communities of

22     Herceg-Bosna are shown on this map.

23             MR. KARNAVAS:  Again, I object.  Just because it says it doesn't

24     mean it's so.

25             MS. MOE:  I do believe I don't --

Page 7419

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [No interpretation].

 2             [Interpretation] I'm going to repeat.  Let me just check that

 3     interpretation is working.

 4             Unfortunately, we see that in 1991, the Herceg-Bosna Croat

 5     Community is there.  I mean, we have a text, but we can't do anything

 6     about it.  Ideally, it would have been better not to have the text, but

 7     unfortunately the text is there.  So this being said, Ms. Moe, please put

 8     your question, and I'm waiting for an answer and the rest.

 9             MS. MOE:  I have the same question.

10        Q.   This map shows that Konjic was part of Herceg-Bosna, doesn't it?

11        A.   That's what it says on the map.  According to this map, the map

12     I'm looking at, that's how it's surrounded.

13        Q.   And Konjic was part of Herceg-Bosna, wasn't it?

14        A.   Let me say again, that's what would follow on the basis of this

15     map, but who drew up this map and who conceived it, I don't know.

16             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry, Witness, I find this a bit difficult.

17     Are you telling us that you do not know whether Konjic, your place, was

18     part of Herceg-Bosna or not?  Do you want us to believe that you ignore

19     even this?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that judging by this map

21     here --

22             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Please answer my question.  I am asking you, as

23     a high military officer who worked in Konjic, were you ignorant of the

24     fact that the municipality of Konjic formed part of the Croat Republic of

25     Herceg-Bosna; yes or no?  You knew or you did not know?

Page 7420

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, I did know.

 2             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Okay, thank you.

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:  At this point, Your Honour, I wish to point out,

 4     based on that form of the question, that you're suggesting that the

 5     entire municipality, as opposed to areas within the municipalities, were

 6     part of Herceg-Bosna.  We took -- we had extensive testimony on that, and

 7     I think that's the fallacy with the map.  The map draws in the entire

 8     municipality.

 9             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Well, that's the Defence's point.  I accept that

10     you -- and you have now said that you doubt this, and I think it would be

11     helpful to go on.

12             MR. KARNAVAS:  But I guess -- well, then if that's the case --

13     that's my position.  I want to know whether it's the Bench's position or

14     your position that the entire municipality of every municipality drawn in

15     this map was Herceg-Bosna, because that's the problem that we have with

16     the map, and others would have.  Areas may be part of Herceg-Bosna, but

17     the way it is, and it seems that we're still in the middle of the Defence

18     case, and now based on your question, you have asserted a fact of which I

19     need to be aware of.

20             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Well, Mr. Karnavas, unfortunately, so far the

21     Defence has not shown us evidence of certain parts of Konjic not being

22     included in Herceg-Bosna, and if we see this, of course, we are ready to

23     say that most or a large part, or whatever, of Konjic belonged to

24     Herceg-Bosna.  But if you look at the basic text, you have the

25     municipality of Konjic mentioned there.  I did not use the term

Page 7421

 1     "territory."

 2             MR. KARNAVAS:  I understand, and I appreciate that.  I would,

 3     however, point out that we did present testimony concerning maybe not

 4     every single municipality, but, for instance, we had testimony where we

 5     did debate this issue or tried to counter the Prosecution's theory of

 6     this issue of territory versus areas.  That was my point, Your Honour,

 7     and that's why.  But if the Court feels it is necessary for the Defence

 8     to bring in a map which shows exactly which areas within which

 9     municipalities --

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Karnavas, I think this is meandering a bit

11     far.

12             MR. KARNAVAS:  It is not, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Yes.  The witness has clearly answered that he

14     knew that Konjic was part of Herceg-Bosna, full stop, and we're not going

15     into the details of "podrucje" or "teritorija."  I leave that open, I

16     expressly leave that open.

17             MR. KARNAVAS:  I understand that.  You did press the witness,

18     Your Honour, you did form an opinion, you told us that, I realise that,

19     and now I'm fully aware that we need to present further evidence on this

20     point, and I appreciate that.  I'm not trying to meander.

21             I apologise for taking the time.  Thank you.

22             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honours, but in

23     view of the question just raised by Judge Trechsel, I have to intervene.

24             On page 71, lines 5 and 6, Judge Trechsel told the witness the

25     following:

Page 7422

 1             "Do you want us to believe that you ignore even this?"

 2             And I consider that that position on the part of Judge Trechsel

 3     is not commensurate to this stage of the proceedings.  Judge Trechsel

 4     presented his view here; namely, that the witness didn't know certain

 5     things, and now he says:  "Do you want us to believe that you ignore even

 6     this?"  I think that that is a conclusion that the Prosecutor may be

 7     allowed to make in his closing arguments, based on the statements by this

 8     witness; but I, as Defence counsel for Mr. Bruno Stojic, I have to say

 9     that an assessment and evaluation of this witness's testimony will be

10     weighed up in the way he testified.  He testified about things he knew.

11     He was very frank in saying what he knew of and what he did not know

12     about, and he told the Defence that and he told the Prosecutors that.  So

13     this gives rise to concern, seeing this sentence on the record, because

14     it seems to be a position taken with regard to this witness's testimony

15     before the witness has concluded his testimony.

16             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour.

17             So the record is balanced, this trial, as the President mentioned

18     several days ago -- yesterday, excuse me, this trial has been going on

19     for three years.  The Chamber has heard an abundance of evidence on this

20     point.  This map is in evidence.  Other documents are in evidence, which

21     clearly show absolutely, without question, clearly show -- and this is

22     argument, but that's what counsel are doing now, so I'm doing the same

23     thing -- show that Konjic was part of Herceg-Bosna.  It's been in

24     document and document after document, map after map after map.

25             We cannot -- no party, including the Defence or the Prosecution,

Page 7423

 1     can put three years' worth of evidence to every witness.  There comes a

 2     time when everyone in the courtroom must presume to build on a certain

 3     foundation, and there's nothing improper whatsoever, in my submission,

 4     and again I want the record to be balanced -- excuse me, maybe

 5     Mr. Praljak can sit down until I'm finished.  Excuse me.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, please let the

 7     Prosecutor finish.

 8             MR. SCOTT:  [Previous translation continues] ... Judge Trechsel's

 9     comment, and again I'm saying this so that the record is balanced.

10     Judge Trechsel's comment was entirely proper in keeping with observations

11     on the state of the evidence, which a Judge can do at any time in these

12     proceedings, and it's simply we're really wasting time.  And I wouldn't

13     have gotten on my feet, except that at this point, given the comments

14     that have been made, I think that the record had to be balanced.

15             Thank you.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To avoid wasting any time, let

17     me say this.  To know whether Konjic is or is not part of the Croatian

18     Community, it's important to establish a distinction between the notions

19     of de jure and de facto.  There is one document, which is P79, which has

20     not been mentioned, which is the Constitution of Croatian Community of

21     Herceg-Bosna, which includes Konjic, so de jure, according to this

22     document, Konjic is part of the Croatian Community.  Now, de facto,

23     perhaps this was not the case, so the Bench, at the end of the

24     proceedings, will have to assess whether this document P79 is an

25     illustration of what actually happened and reflects what occurred.

Page 7424

 1             Nonetheless, I'm still keeping my eye on the time, and I shall

 2     give you the floor back now, Ms. Moe.

 3             MS. MOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   I'll move to my last map, and that would be P10068.  And that's

 5     also one of the loose documents, Witness, and that's map 37.

 6             I think you're in the wrong -- in the wrong bundle, Mr. Juric.

 7             MS. MOE:  Mr. Usher, could we have the assistance -- some

 8     assistance, please.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have it on the screen up here.

10             MS. MOE:

11        Q.   Okay.  It's 10068, map 37.  And this -- Witness, this map shows

12     the Vance-Owen Peace Plan, 25th of March, 1993, and you can see from the

13     legend that certain numbers, provinces, are to be Muslim areas, certain

14     provinces are to be Serb areas, Croat areas, and mixed.  Excuse me.  And

15     you see, don't you, that according to this map, Konjic is to be a Croat

16     area?

17        A.   According to the map, yes.

18        Q.   And that is in spite of the fact that, as you said, Konjic had a

19     Muslim majority prior to the war; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And it would not surprise you, would it, if many of the Muslims

22     in Konjic did not feel so positive about the municipality being part of a

23     Croat province, according to the Vance-Owen Peace Plan?

24        A.   It's a difficult question for me to be able to provide an answer,

25     what the Muslims thought about the Vance-Owen Plan, or Konjic within that

Page 7425

 1     plan.

 2        Q.   Let me ask you a different question, then.  It would not surprise

 3     you, would it, if many of the Muslims in Konjic did not feel so positive

 4     about Konjic being part of Herceg-Bosna, would it?

 5             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Ms. Moe, I think this question is perceived as

 6     asking for speculation, and I do not quite see what the interest for the

 7     Chamber is of what the witness thought in this respect.

 8             MS. MOE:  I'll move on, Judge Trechsel.

 9             I'd like -- I don't appreciate the comments from the counsel,

10     either.

11             MR. KOVACIC:  I'm sorry, I was talking to my colleague.  It was

12     not a comment.

13             MS. MOE:

14        Q.   Can we please go to P10 -- excuse me, P10922.  That's in the

15     binder, Witness.  This is an article from "Vreme" magazine.  5th of July,

16     1993, that's the date.  "Vreme" magazine, that's a Serb publication,

17     isn't it?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   From Serbia?  From Serbia?

20             I asked you a question, Witness.  Is "Vreme" magazine a Serb

21     publication from Serbia?

22        A.   I didn't know that, but I'm reading this now, so -- well, I don't

23     know exactly.

24        Q.   On page 2, there is a photo.  That's a photo of you, isn't it, to

25     the right?

Page 7426

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Do you remember making a statement to the journalist from

 3     "Vreme"?

 4        A.   I can't remember just now, but I can explain what this is about.

 5        Q.   I'll ask you the questions, thank you.  And I'll go to your

 6     statement.  This article goes to an alliance between the VRS and the HVO

 7     at the time, and I would like to ask you about your statement, as I said,

 8     and that would be on the page that is numbered 33 in your article.  You

 9     can see the page numbers down to the right.  It's on page 4 of the

10     English translation, and the headline is "An Orthodox Bishop and a

11     Friar."  And the next paragraph, I'll read it out:

12             "The Chief of Staff of Herceg Stjepan Brigade, Mr. Dragan Juric,

13     was somewhat more specific and realistic, revealing a part of a real

14     picture of this alliance.  The events here have compelled us to establish

15     cooperation with those whom we have recently still pointed our guns at.

16     It didn't take us long to put that time behind us, and I think that the

17     politicians should realise that this is the only way to defend what is

18     left of our people.  Muslims are very strong here.  They have brought

19     people from Eastern Bosnia, and there are a lot of mercenaries,

20     Mujahedin, from Iran, Kuwait and Morocco.  They obtain their weapons

21     mainly via UNPROFOR pipelines, and we can prove that.  Money is always

22     behind everything."

23             And then what I would like you to pay particular attention to:

24             "As for the border of Herceg-Bosna, we have no disputes with

25     Serbs, but neither side can live with Muslims any longer.  I think that

Page 7427

 1     we shall make a joint effort and force Muslims to leave these areas."

 2             And I put it to you, Mr. Juric, what I said to you before the

 3     break.  I put to you that you had good knowledge, both politically and

 4     militarily, about what was going on at the time, and I put it to you that

 5     what you say here proves that point, doesn't it?

 6        A.   First of all, I cannot assess what the gentleman who wrote this

 7     wrote.  I was wounded on the 2nd of July and in a very difficult

 8     situation, and I was transferred because I had a temperature, I was

 9     running a temperature, and they were going to amputate my leg.  I was

10     transferred to Republika Srpska and the war hospital there, and I was

11     operated on there.  I was running a high fever, and after that I remember

12     that some journalist turned up to interview me.  That's all I can say, as

13     far as the condition I was in when this was written, because I stayed in

14     the area for seven days, I had all these troubles to contend with, and

15     their policemen were in front of the door to the room I was lying in and

16     I kept hearing people shout, Let's see that Ustasha commander who's lying

17     in bed there.  So after spending eight days there, they sent me back to

18     Turije, and my recuperation lasted another month and 20 days, roughly.

19             So I don't deny that I was there, I don't deny having said some

20     things, but similarly as to what is set out here, I think -- I don't

21     think it's all truthful and I think it has been added on to, because in

22     those days I was having a great deal of problems and my life was hanging

23     in the balance.

24             MS. MOE:  That concludes my cross-examination.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one point of

Page 7428

 1     clarification, Witness, unless there has been a mistake.

 2             You were taken to this hospital for your leg to be amputated.

 3     Were you actually amputated or not?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, no, I underwent two

 5     surgical procedures and they were able to save my leg.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 7             Ms. Nozica.

 8             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             I would kindly ask the usher to distribute some documents that

10     I've been able to prepare in the meantime, and I also believe that I will

11     be able to call them up on e-court.

12                           Re-examination by Ms. Nozica:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] First of all, Mr. Juric, let's start with the

14     moment you were wounded and the last thing you said, and that was that at

15     the time, you were treated in the territory that was held by the Serbs.

16     Did you have an opportunity, you who were in the territory of Turije,

17     Zabrdje and Zaslivlje, as you have described for us and for the

18     Trial Chamber in your direct examination, did you have an opportunity to

19     be treated anywhere else?  Did you or any other members of your unit have

20     an opportunity to choose anywhere else to be treated?

21        A.   No.  We had two physicians in the area who were working in a

22     garage.  There were six beds there, and they could only treat some slight

23     wounds.  Everything else, we had to seek approval to transfer such

24     wounded, and the Serbs helped us with that.  However, three of our

25     soldiers, two members of the military police and another foot soldier,

Page 7429

 1     were taken for treatment and were liquidated up there.  They never

 2     returned.  It was only last year that the body of Mario Vidackovic, a

 3     military policeman, was exchanged.  And as for the other two, we still

 4     don't know what their lot was.

 5        Q.   Mr. Juric, you have just told us that you were forced, if I

 6     understood you well, because there was no other place for you to be

 7     treated?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And that three members of the HVO who went for treatment in the

10     territory of Republika Srpska have been liquidated and never returned; is

11     that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Did you know that at the moment when you were taken for

14     treatment?  Did you know what risk you were exposed to?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   I am going to repeat and ask you:  Did you have any other

17     opportunity?  Could you be taken anywhere else to be treated in your

18     condition?

19        A.   No, I didn't.

20        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Juric, while you were in the area, first as the

21     commander of the area and then in the staff or in leadership of the area,

22     how many civilians, approximately, or members of the HVO were treated in

23     the territory of Republika Srpska?

24        A.   I don't know the exact number, but I would say that their number

25     was up to 20, maybe less than 20.  I'm saying up to 20 because I'm not

Page 7430

 1     aware of the exact number.  If I ever knew it, I've forgotten in the

 2     meantime.

 3        Q.   Mr. Juric, let me go back to a document that was shown to you by

 4     the Prosecutor.  It is not in my binder.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat the number?

 6             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I'll repeat the number.  10911.

 7        Q.   You don't have to -- I believe it's the document that -- look at

 8     it in e-court, Mr. Juric.  This will save us some time.  It's an order

 9     that you signed, and I will kindly ask you to comment upon it.

10             Mr. Juric, you said that there were no joint operations with the

11     Army of Republika Srpska.  Kindly tell me whether the Army of

12     Republika Srpska, at the time while you were in the area, acted or was

13     engaged against the position of the BiH Army.

14        A.   While we were there in that area, the VRS would occasionally

15     shell the town of Konjic and certain positions.  It opened fire on our

16     defence lines.  Shells fell on our defence lines.  We had two seriously

17     wounded who succumbed to his wounds, and we had some other slightly

18     wounded.

19        Q.   In the operations launched by the Army of Republika Srpska

20     against the position of -- positions of the BiH Army when you were also

21     hit, or any time later, had you ever engaged in any negotiations between

22     you, as the commander of the sector, and them to engage in joint

23     operations?

24        A.   No, there were no negotiations, there were no agreements to that

25     effect.  However, when it comes to that area and that conflict in the

Page 7431

 1     area, they controlled all that very well because they were much higher

 2     above the area, so from all of their positions they could have a clear

 3     view of the position and where the combat was taking place.  And as soon

 4     as a combat started in one of the sectors, they would start acting

 5     against that sector in order to protect themselves, because they were

 6     aware that if our lines had been broken and if the area was taken control

 7     of, that the situation would be compounded and they would come under

 8     threat.  They kept us there as the human shield, as the first defence

 9     line, although they had lines behind ours and there was a

10     minefield between us and them.

11        Q.   Did I understand you properly when you said that between you and

12     the Army of Republika Srpska, there were minefields?  Did you say that?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   What was the strip of minefields?

15        A.   It went from Ljubinje, down to Turije, and according to my

16     estimate it was a hardly-accessible area, and in some places the mines

17     were not necessary.  In any case, the length of that area was about five

18     kilometres with minefields.  It was hardly-accessible terrain.  No

19     minefields were necessary there because there were streams and brooks,

20     and very hard to negotiate for a foot soldier.

21        Q.   You said that in front of you, there was the BiH Army, and that

22     above you, in the pocket where you were, there was the Army of

23     Republika Srpska.  Did I understand you properly?

24        A.   Yes, you did.

25        Q.   Tell me, please, you also said that you negotiated with the

Page 7432

 1     Army of Republika Srpska about the transfer of civilians, and there was

 2     quite a large number of civilians in your territory?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   We also saw and heard, from the question that my learned friend

 5     put to you, and I followed up on it, that you were treated together with

 6     some other members of the HVO in that area?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   You also said, and I want to repeat, that there were no joint

 9     military operations involving yourselves and the Army of Republika Srpska

10     against the BH Army; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, it is.

12        Q.   Mr. Juric, in the situation that you found yourselves in in the

13     pocket, completely encircled, did you negotiate with members of the

14     BiH Army?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Could you tell the Trial Chamber when the negotiations took

17     place, the negotiations to deal with your unfortunate situation?  When

18     did they start, actually?  Did they start immediately after you came

19     there?  Did they continue until your departure from the area?

20        A.   The negotiations with the BiH Army started sometime in July.

21        Q.   Very well.  And now I will ask you to look at a document.  We

22     shall rely on e-court.

23             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Can I call up P6555.  Could we

24     please see it in e-court.  I have not prepared it in hard copy because I

25     decided to show the document at the last moment, after my -- after the

Page 7433

 1     last question put by my learned friend.

 2        Q.   Look at the document.  This is a report from the Herceg Stjepan

 3     Turije Battalion.

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

 5     the last page of the document.

 6        Q.   In the meantime, I'm going to say that this document was signed

 7     by Mr. Mladen Zovko, Kuhar, and this document originated from the

 8     Independent Battalion Herceg Stjepan, Turije.

 9             It says in the document that in a conversation with

10     Haris Silajdzic on October 19, 1993, on an exchange of prisoners of war,

11     it says:

12             "I was invited to Silajdzic's place for a conversation."

13             This is what Mr. Kuhar says.  Who was Mr. Kuhar?

14        A.   He was my assistant for security while I was the commander of the

15     area, and on 19 October 1993, when this was drafted, at the time he was

16     the deputy commander of the area or the -- and still he was the assistant

17     commander for security.

18        Q.   He says here the meeting was attended by Mladen Zovko and

19     Jerko Petkovic, who represented the Herceg Stjepan Independent Battalion.

20     Is there somebody called Jerko?

21        A.   No, there was Zeljko.

22        Q.   "... and the commander of the 6th Corps, Mr. Salko Music, and a

23     member of the Supreme Command, Bosiocic, Zagi, represented the Muslim

24     side.  Apart from the talks concerning the exchange, the mentioned

25     individuals offered us to surrender our positions to them, and in

Page 7434

 1     exchange they would enable the evacuation of soldiers and civilians from

 2     our three territories across their territory.

 3             "Haris Silajdzic, during the talks, and I talked to personally,

 4     provided guarantees regarding possible operation.  On the

 5     3rd of November, I met with Fahrudin Fazlic, also known as Braco, and he

 6     informed me that he had been authorised by Silajdzic to negotiate with me

 7     regarding the issue of our positions.  On that occasion, he offered to

 8     buy off from us 70 per cent of our small arms, all the heavy weaponry,

 9     and the food that has remained, and they were prepared to pay

10     500.000 Deutschemarks for all that.

11             "I replied that they could possibly get small arms at the

12     demarcation line and the aforementioned individual accepted that."

13             It goes on to say what the topic of the conversation was and how

14     it went on, and I'm going to ask you this:  Did you know about these

15     contacts between the Independent Battalion Herceg Stjepan, Turije, or

16     with your area with the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina to negotiate the

17     transport of you and the civilians from the area ?

18        A.   Since this period of time I performed the duty of the assistant

19     commander for dealing with civilians, in other words, my job is to accept

20     civilians, to look after them, and for the concern for the civilians in

21     the area.  And as for these events described herein, we simply mentioned

22     that in a short briefing, but nothing about the money or the sale of

23     weapons.  I didn't know anything about that.

24        Q.   Mr. Juric, my general question to you is this:  Did you know that

25     starting from July 1993 onwards, that there were contacts and

Page 7435

 1     negotiations both with the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in order to deal

 2     with your hard position?

 3        A.   Yes, I knew that.

 4        Q.   I'm now going to ask you very briefly, how long did the conflict

 5     between you and the BiH Army last, until when?

 6        A.   Until the beginning of September 1993.  That was the last attack

 7     that was carried out, and as of that time, the beginning of September,

 8     until the month of March 1994, the BiH Army never attacked us.  There

 9     were no infantry or artillery attacks.  During that time, we even

10     embarked on joint work.  A commission was set up which provided for

11     electricity for Konjic, because the long-distance lines went to our area,

12     we allowed that.  Joint commissions were set up.  We toured the area, and

13     towards the end of 1993, on the eve of the new year, our villages got

14     electricity as well as the town of Konjic.  We all got electricity.

15             And one more thing that I would like to say.  During the

16     negotiations which were carried out with the other -- the one and the

17     other side, which is very important, we could not transport civilians

18     through Jablanica, because civilians had arrived from there in our area.

19     We transported them through the Serbian side.  That was our concession to

20     them for having helped their civilians.  And as for the combatants, both

21     sides emphasised that no single combatant from the area could leave the

22     area.  First of all, they would be disarmed; second of all, they would be

23     taken to a camp, to detention; and, thirdly, their further lot would be

24     decided by higher echelons, which means that nobody in the area was

25     competent to decide what would happen to such combatants later on, if

Page 7436

 1     they surrendered.

 2        Q.   Let me just ask you briefly.  When you say "both sides," the one

 3     and the other side, you mean the BH Army and the Army of Republika Srpska

 4     already had Croatian detainees in their prisons?

 5        A.   The BH Army did have Croats in the sports hall up to November,

 6     there were 400 of our combatants there.  And as for the Serbian side

 7     which was in contact with us, I don't know whether there were any

 8     detainees there.

 9        Q.   And did you know that there were prisons further afield on the

10     territory of Republika Srpska where Croats had been kept?  Did you hear

11     anything about that after the end of the war?

12        A.   The policemen who got killed.

13        Q.   I apologise to the interpreters.  You started by saying you're a

14     policeman?

15        A.   The policeman, Mario Vidackovic, who was killed up there, he had

16     been taken to the camp in Foca.

17        Q.   And now I'm going to ask you briefly to look at a document that

18     you were shown by the Prosecutor.  They are in the big binder that you've

19     received.  They follow a sequence in which I'm going to be using them.

20             First of all, you were shown a report signed by Zejnil Delalic,

21     and this is a publication without a date, but it follows on the report of

22     HVO Konjic, and it says here that the HVO is doing something of their own

23     will.  The number of the document is P101 -- I apologise, P10919.

24             We have it now.  Did you find it, sir?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7437

 1        Q.   In this public announcement, Mr. Delalic writes against the HVO.

 2     It seems that the document was issued in July, although it doesn't bear a

 3     date, and he is referring to a public announcement by the HVO Konjic.

 4     I'm going to show you the next document to establish a link between the

 5     two documents.  So this first document is from the month of July, and now

 6     look at 2D767, which is the following document in the sequence that has

 7     already been shown to you.

 8             Have you got the second document in front of you now?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   Mr. Juric, a reference is made to a coordinator.  We have already

11     spoken in this -- about this document and misinformation which was

12     directed against the HVO about the situation in Konjic, and it says in

13     this document that the coordinator was Mr. Zejnil Delalic.  Would you

14     agree with that?

15        A.   I'm not sure, but I believe that you're correct.  I'm not sure.

16        Q.   Could you please look at the following document.  Were there any

17     other coordinators?  Did anybody introduce themselves to you as

18     coordinator?  I'm sorry for insisting.  Did you hear of him being such a

19     coordinator?

20        A.   I could not be informed about that.  I knew that he was the

21     commander of the Tactical Group TG-1 for Igman.  However, since I was not

22     well informed about that, I can't say anything about that.

23        Q.   I won't insist.  Let's look at something else.

24             We saw what the coordinator did in both cases, and now look at

25     2D798.  We have already seen the document.  I showed it to you earlier.

Page 7438

 1     Do you see it?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And we see here that this is an announcement from a joint meeting

 4     which took place in October 1992, two or three months after the public

 5     announcement by the coordinator, who said that the HVO was the one

 6     provoking conflicts.  This is an announcement which was signed by the

 7     commander of the staff of the BiH Army for Konjic and the commander of

 8     the HVO.  We carefully read it.  Does it arise from this announcement

 9     that there were no significant problems in Konjic between the BiH Army

10     and the HVO; on the contrary, that that cooperation was at a high very

11     level?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Very well.  I'm showing you the documents because it has been

14     implied by my learned friend, the Prosecutor, that the HVO provoked all

15     the conflicts, and we clearly see and we insist on the fact that the

16     commander of the staff of the BiH Army in Konjic co-signed this

17     announcement.  Am I right?

18        A.   Yes, you are.

19        Q.   Very well, then.  I'm now going to ask you to look at document

20     P01866.  Mr. Juric, did you find it?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   This is from a meeting that you didn't attend, according to you,

23     and it says very clearly here that not even the commander of your unit

24     was at the meeting; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7439

 1        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber when this meeting took place?  Was

 2     it at 10.00, as it says here?  And you were asked whether you were aware

 3     of all these positions, and you said you were not, and it was implied

 4     that you could have been aware of the meeting that took place on the

 5     20th of March, 1993, and it says here that the minutes of the meeting

 6     were discussed on the 13th of April, 1993.  And now I'm going to ask you

 7     to tell the Trial Chamber what happened that night.  We don't know where

 8     the meeting took place.  It is to be assumed that it was in Mostar.

 9     However, I would like you to tell us what happened during the night

10     between the 13th and the 14th of April, 1993, although we have already

11     spoken about that.  Could you please repeat what was said and what you

12     know?

13        A.   The 13th and the 14th of April, 1993, this was the beginning of

14     an all-out attack of the BiH Army against Konjic.

15        Q.   Mr. Juric, before that attack, around the 10th to the 13th, did

16     you know anything about the blocking of the roads leading to Mostar that

17     had been carried out by the HVO and a blockade of the roads around

18     Konjic?

19        A.   Could you please repeat the question?

20        Q.   I apologise.  Did you know that the BiH Army, and I misspoke, I

21     apologise, that the BiH Army, around those days, on the eve of that

22     attack, carried out a blockade of the roads around Konjic, especially

23     those leading to Jablanica?

24        A.   All the check-points that were in the area were manned by the

25     BiH Army.  There were neither the MUP or the HVO in any of the

Page 7440

 1     check-points.

 2        Q.   Are you saying that the check-points that had been established

 3     earlier, did I understand you properly, on that day were exclusively

 4     under the control of the BiH Army and the HVO?  I'm going to ask you, and

 5     if you don't know, please don't answer.  Is it possible that the

 6     commander of your brigade could go to Mostar to this meeting and go

 7     through all these check-points?

 8        A.   I believe that that was the very reason why he didn't go.  The

 9     answer may not be correct.  This is just my opinion.  That's what I'm

10     guessing.

11        Q.   What is your opinion?

12        A.   My opinion is that he may have been prevented by the fact that he

13     might have been imprisoned when attempting to pass through the

14     check-points.

15        Q.   And now let's look at the last document.  I believe that it begs

16     clarification.  The number is P10927.  Did you find it, sir?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Mr. Juric, you said that you did not sign this document.  I would

19     kindly ask you to provide another very concise explanation.  This is a

20     document that obviously originates from Kostajnica.  Can you tell the

21     Trial Chamber, when you said, I could not have sent this because I wasn't

22     there, could you tell the Trial Chamber and explain to the Trial Chamber

23     where you were on the 20th of May, since when you were there, and where

24     was Kostajnica from which the document was obviously sent?

25        A.   During this period of time, well, when this was written, I was in

Page 7441

 1     the area between Turije, Zabrdje and Zaslivlje.  Kostajnica is at the

 2     very entrance into Buturovic field, some 20-plus kilometres away from

 3     Konjic, i.e., from the area where I was between Turije, Zabrdje and

 4     Zaslivlje.

 5        Q.   You already said this, but please repeat.  Who was in Kostajnica

 6     at the time?

 7        A.   At that point in time, as for the Brigade Command, there was the

 8     brigade commander and his assistant for IPD, i.e., Information and

 9     Political Activity.  The two of them were in the communications centre,

10     as it were, where the packet communication system was all the time.

11        Q.   Tell me, please, just for the transcript, since when were you in

12     the territory of Turije, Zabrdje and Zaslivlje, and until when?

13        A.   I was there from the 18th of April, 1993, until, and I can't

14     really be precise, it was either the 15th or the 16th of March, 1994.

15        Q.   Can you tell the honourable Trial Chamber whether you could in

16     any way send a courier, maybe, on the 20th of May, 1993, and dispatch

17     this report?

18        A.   I have already said to the Trial Chamber there was no way for me

19     to do that.

20        Q.   Mr. Juric, this report is from Konjic.  This is not a report from

21     Turije, Zabrdje or Zaslivlje; is that what you could agree with?  Look at

22     the first page, please.  It says:  "A report from Konjic," does it not?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   In this report, it says that somebody was listening to the radio

25     on the 12th of April and the 23rd of April, and there is an emphasis on

Page 7442

 1     the letter date, and you said to the Trial Chamber that you were without

 2     electricity at the time.  Were you in a position to listen to the

 3     Radio Konjic on the 23rd of April?

 4        A.   No, I was not.  In the area where I was, I couldn't listen to the

 5     radio.

 6        Q.   This is what I wanted to ask you.  Thank you very much.  And

 7     further on, although he you have already directly answered this,

 8     Mr. Juric, did you have any packet communication in that area?  Because

 9     we can see in the document that it was dispatched by packet communication

10     on the 20th of May, or, rather, received by the Main Staff on the

11     20th of May at 2400 hours.  Did you have any possibility to send a

12     document from Turije, Zabrdje and Zaslivlje by packet communication?

13        A.   No.

14             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Juric.  I

15     have no further questions for you.

16             Thank you, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

18             Thank you very much, Witness, for coming to testify at the

19     request of Mr. Stojic's Defence.  I would like to wish you a safe return

20     home, and I would like to ask Mr. Usher to escort you outside of this

21     courtroom.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's hear what's

24     planned for next week.

25             As you all know, Mr. Praljak's Defence will intervene.  The

Page 7443

 1     Chamber rendered a decision under Article 84 -- Rule 84 of the Rules.

 2     Mr. Kovacic will have one hour and thirty minutes to present his -- to

 3     submit his motion, and after that Mr. Praljak will be sworn in and he

 4     will make his opening statement under Rule 84 bis of the Rules.

 5             The Trial Chamber stated that Mr. Praljak will have one hour and

 6     thirty minutes.  This was handed down.  It's registered, and the decision

 7     will be translated if it has not been translated yet.

 8             So this is something I wanted to tell you already now.

 9             We are going to reconvene Monday.  We will then start with the

10     84 and 84 bis procedure, which should bring us to the end of the day of

11     Monday, since one hour and 30 minutes plus one hour and 30 minutes equals

12     three hours, so we will end the hearing on that day.  Then on Tuesday,

13     Mr. Praljak will be sworn in.  Actually, he will not be sworn in again,

14     since he would have already been sworn in on Monday.  And then he will,

15     on Tuesday, answer to questions put by his attorney, Mr. Kovacic.  So now

16     everybody knows what's going on.

17             Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

18             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted to say

19     that we understood the French original yesterday very well, and I have

20     just been advised that the English translation has reached us.  We may

21     have not been clear in the notification that we sent to you.  There will

22     be no opening statement pursuant to Article 84, and it arises from our

23     notification that we plan for Mr. Praljak to talk for three hours, in

24     keeping with 84 bis or 84, depending on the Trial Chamber.  But now that

25     we have read the text in the English language, it seems that you have

Page 7444

 1     explicitly decided that, so it seems that if I have any additional

 2     requests, you will tell me that it is res judicata.

 3             I'm saying this for organisational reasons.  We would be very

 4     happy if Mr. Praljak could talk for three hours.  However, if your

 5     decision is what it is, I am obviously not going to dwell upon that.

 6     General Praljak would then start on Monday, within the temporal

 7     limitations that you have provided us with.  The Defence would not have

 8     any opening statements, because what Mr. Praljak is going to say is

 9     defence, and then we would proceed with examination-in-chief.

10             This is our plan, and we hope that nothing unforeseen will happen

11     with that regard.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

13             Since I only have a few more seconds:  The last witness for the

14     Stojic Defence will be able to -- will come as soon as it's possible.

15     You will let me know ahead of time so that we know, while Mr. Praljak is

16     testifying, that we may insert this other witness.  You've asked for one

17     hour for that witness, so you'll have one hour for you and one hour for

18     the Prosecutor, and then it will be done in such a way that there's no

19     interference.

20             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] With your leave, I would kindly

21     thank you for giving me this opportunity.  We will make sure that

22     Mr. Praljak's testimony is not interrupted.  We will make sure to

23     organise the arrival of this witness after his testimony and still in

24     consultation with the Defence of Mr. Praljak.

25             It is my duty to tell you that I have not been in a position to

Page 7445

 1     receive medical documentation for the witness whose name I don't want to

 2     mention.  As soon as I have any information and medical documentation, I

 3     will inform both the Trial Chamber and my learned friend, the Prosecutor.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Yes.

 6             MR. KOVACIC:  If I may take just one second.  It is still on your

 7     decision which we just discussed.

 8             We earlier were told that we would start on 4th May, which is

 9     Monday.  A decision, and probably it is the error, still is mentioning 6

10     May.  But that was not your intention, to change the days?  We are

11     starting on the 4th?

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, no, Monday is the 4th of

13     May, it's not the 6th of May.

14             MR. KOVACIC:  Okay.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, we're starting on Monday.

16             Very well.  Just a few seconds, because I really don't want the

17     Popovic Trial Chamber to be mad at me.  So you have a few seconds.

18             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             No, just out of an abundance of caution, and history has shown

20     that sometimes it's better to err on the side of absolute clarity, I take

21     it from Ms. Nozica's comment that the witness that she's referring, based

22     on saying that he will not be called prior to the end of the Praljak

23     testimony, that means he would not be called any earlier than the second

24     half of July.  That's how I understand that, then.  Is that correct?

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I thought too.

Page 7446

 1             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  This is for

 2     practical reasons.  It would be pointless to interrupt the examination of

 3     Mr. Praljak.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 5             I wish you a good day, and the hearing will reconvene on Monday

 6     at 1415.

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th of May, 2009,

 9                           at 2.15 p.m.